The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

tribeofjudah wrote:Yet another reason to give more "Faith" to our Front Office...

What is the first reason?

crazyhorse1 wrote:

tribeofjudah wrote:Yet another reason to give more "Faith" to our Front Office...

What is the first reason?

frankcal20 wrote:You can't rate an signing until the end of the season. Only because you don't know how a person is going to be used or if they'll even be here. You also have to look at the guaranteed money. We got most guys on the cheap.

You get what you pay for, usually, which is something people here like to deny. "On the cheap" is another way of saying "camp fodder." You don't win Super Bowls "on the cheap." My brother is a Mayor who won't pay teachers a decent wage and is surprised his city offers the worse education in Florida. The days Danny would spend bucks on talent ended a while back, ensuring last place finishes. No one has noticed. apparently. Everyone continues to applaud frugality, even as we lose.

crazyhorse1 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:You can't rate an signing until the end of the season. Only because you don't know how a person is going to be used or if they'll even be here. You also have to look at the guaranteed money. We got most guys on the cheap.

You get what you pay for, usually, which is something people here like to deny. "On the cheap" is another way of saying "camp fodder." You don't win Super Bowls "on the cheap." My brother is a Mayor who won't pay teachers a decent wage and is surprised his city offers the worse education in Florida. The days Danny would spend bucks on talent ended a while back, ensuring last place finishes. No one has noticed. apparently. Everyone continues to applaud frugality, even as we lose.

.. but my friend, when we were spending big money on talent we still lost!

langleyparkjoe wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:You can't rate an signing until the end of the season. Only because you don't know how a person is going to be used or if they'll even be here. You also have to look at the guaranteed money. We got most guys on the cheap.

You get what you pay for, usually, which is something people here like to deny. "On the cheap" is another way of saying "camp fodder." You don't win Super Bowls "on the cheap." My brother is a Mayor who won't pay teachers a decent wage and is surprised his city offers the worse education in Florida. The days Danny would spend bucks on talent ended a while back, ensuring last place finishes. No one has noticed. apparently. Everyone continues to applaud frugality, even as we lose.

.. but my friend, when we were spending big money on talent we still lost!

And he complained about spending big money then...

Some people won't be happy until Shanny trades the Danny for a player to be named later.

You get what you pay for, usually, which is something people here like to deny. "On the cheap" is another way of saying "camp fodder." You don't win Super Bowls "on the cheap." My brother is a Mayor who won't pay teachers a decent wage and is surprised his city offers the worse education in Florida. The days Danny would spend bucks on talent ended a while back, ensuring last place finishes. No one has noticed. apparently. Everyone continues to applaud frugality, even as we lose.

New form of City government where the Mayor sets the teacher pay scales???

Rayskins69 wrote:

You get what you pay for, usually, which is something people here like to deny. "On the cheap" is another way of saying "camp fodder." You don't win Super Bowls "on the cheap." My brother is a Mayor who won't pay teachers a decent wage and is surprised his city offers the worse education in Florida. The days Danny would spend bucks on talent ended a while back, ensuring last place finishes. No one has noticed. apparently. Everyone continues to applaud frugality, even as we lose.

New form of City government where the Mayor sets the teacher pay scales???

Only in his brother's city...

Jacksonville just elected a new Mayor, and he wants to help the teachers get higher pay maybe he should call CH1's brother to see how he did it.

crazyhorse1 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:You can't rate an signing until the end of the season. Only because you don't know how a person is going to be used or if they'll even be here. You also have to look at the guaranteed money. We got most guys on the cheap.

You get what you pay for, usually, which is something people here like to deny. "On the cheap" is another way of saying "camp fodder." You don't win Super Bowls "on the cheap."

LT Joe Jacoby 23 yrs old UDFA
LG Russ Grimm 23 yrs old / 3rd / 69th pick / 1981
C Jeff Bostic 24 yrs old UDFA
RG Mark May 23 yrs old/ 1st / 20th pick / 1981
RT George Starke 34 yrs old / 11th / 272nd pick / 1971

Wow! We got a Super Bowl out of what we paid for for these guys! Sure May cost a lot, but how much does two UDFA's, a 3rd rounder and an 11th rounder cost? Pretty darn cheap and cheap bought us a Super Bowl. It ain't all about name recognition!

We didn't go out and sign the studs, but clearly our O line has improved with the additions. Williams was a rookie last year. He has come back in better shape. Brown was coming off an injury. He wants to be here and is accepting his role as RT. Rabach is gone (weak link). Monty is a better center than Rabach - we saw that when he played for the injured Rabach. Kory is better check him out on video. We have more depth at OT. Chester is said to be a better fit in ZBS. No these guys aren't studs, but they just might jell together in the second year off an offense.

There are no guarantees, but there are more tangible upsides than you have produced negative. Check out the o line in the videos in the last 4 or 5 games and check out the stats. According to Rich tandler's research, The mediocre O line improved to average when Kory and Monty became the starting guards together, and now you want to make a case that the line hasn't improved with the changes and with a second year of maturation in the scheme. Fact is cheap has won Super Bowls.

Check out the roster of the 1982 Redskins there were 12 UDFAs and a lot of players drafter after the 4th round.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... roster.htm

1niksder wrote:

langleyparkjoe wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:You can't rate an signing until the end of the season. Only because you don't know how a person is going to be used or if they'll even be here. You also have to look at the guaranteed money. We got most guys on the cheap.

You get what you pay for, usually, which is something people here like to deny. "On the cheap" is another way of saying "camp fodder." You don't win Super Bowls "on the cheap." My brother is a Mayor who won't pay teachers a decent wage and is surprised his city offers the worse education in Florida. The days Danny would spend bucks on talent ended a while back, ensuring last place finishes. No one has noticed. apparently. Everyone continues to applaud frugality, even as we lose.

.. but my friend, when we were spending big money on talent we still lost!

And he complained about spending big money then...

Some people won't be happy until Shanny trades the Danny for a player to be named later.

+1.. HILARIOUS!!!!!! The Washington Redskins have traded for Vincent Jackson, sending Danny Snyder to the San Diego Chargers.. awesome! I deliberately said SD because they don't like to pay their players, Danny doesn't have that issue.

crazyhorse1 wrote:You get what you pay for, usually

...

My brother is a Mayor who won't pay teachers a decent wage and is surprised his city offers the worse education in Florida

You just gave a great example of why you had to say "usually," government teachers

1niksder wrote:Some people won't be happy until Shanny trades the Danny for a player to be named later.

Can't they tell us who they'd want us to give them to take Danny now? Whoever it is, it's worth it.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

1niksder wrote:Some people won't be happy until Shanny trades the Danny for a player to be named later.

Can't they tell us who they'd want us to give them to take Danny now? Whoever it is, it's worth it.

unless it Fat Albert

Red_One43 wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:You can't rate an signing until the end of the season. Only because you don't know how a person is going to be used or if they'll even be here. You also have to look at the guaranteed money. We got most guys on the cheap.

You get what you pay for, usually, which is something people here like to deny. "On the cheap" is another way of saying "camp fodder." You don't win Super Bowls "on the cheap."

LT Joe Jacoby 23 yrs old UDFA
LG Russ Grimm 23 yrs old / 3rd / 69th pick / 1981
C Jeff Bostic 24 yrs old UDFA
RG Mark May 23 yrs old/ 1st / 20th pick / 1981
RT George Starke 34 yrs old / 11th / 272nd pick / 1971

Wow! We got a Super Bowl out of what we paid for for these guys! Sure May cost a lot, but how much does two UDFA's, a 3rd rounder and an 11th rounder cost? Pretty darn cheap and cheap bought us a Super Bowl. It ain't all about name recognition!

We didn't go out and sign the studs, but clearly our O line has improved with the additions. Williams was a rookie last year. He has come back in better shape. Brown was coming off an injury. He wants to be here and is accepting his role as RT. Rabach is gone (weak link). Monty is a better center than Rabach - we saw that when he played for the injured Rabach. Kory is better check him out on video. We have more depth at OT. Chester is said to be a better fit in ZBS. No these guys aren't studs, but they just might jell together in the second year off an offense.

There are no guarantees, but there are more tangible upsides than you have produced negative. Check out the o line in the videos in the last 4 or 5 games and check out the stats. According to Rich tandler's research, The mediocre O line improved to average when Kory and Monty became the starting guards together, and now you want to make a case that the line hasn't improved with the changes and with a second year of maturation in the scheme. Fact is cheap has won Super Bowls.

Check out the roster of the 1982 Redskins there were 12 UDFAs and a lot of players drafter after the 4th round.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... roster.htm

Comparisons to 1982 are irrelevant. In 1982 teams didn't have as many scouts or other resources that they have today. It was far more difficult back then for teams to scout players, and as a result it was more likely that a player would go unnoticed and slip to the latter portions of the draft.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Red_One43 wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:You can't rate an signing until the end of the season. Only because you don't know how a person is going to be used or if they'll even be here. You also have to look at the guaranteed money. We got most guys on the cheap.

You get what you pay for, usually, which is something people here like to deny. "On the cheap" is another way of saying "camp fodder." You don't win Super Bowls "on the cheap."

LT Joe Jacoby 23 yrs old UDFA
LG Russ Grimm 23 yrs old / 3rd / 69th pick / 1981
C Jeff Bostic 24 yrs old UDFA
RG Mark May 23 yrs old/ 1st / 20th pick / 1981
RT George Starke 34 yrs old / 11th / 272nd pick / 1971

Wow! We got a Super Bowl out of what we paid for for these guys! Sure May cost a lot, but how much does two UDFA's, a 3rd rounder and an 11th rounder cost? Pretty darn cheap and cheap bought us a Super Bowl. It ain't all about name recognition!

...

Check out the roster of the 1982 Redskins there were 12 UDFAs and a lot of players drafter after the 4th round.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... roster.htm

Comparisons to 1982 are irrelevant. In 1982 teams didn't have as many scouts or other resources that they have today. It was far more difficult back then for teams to scout players, and as a result it was more likely that a player would go unnoticed and slip to the latter portions of the draft.

Not to mention that it's anecdotal evidence anyway. The original quote he's debating is "You get what you pay for, usually." One exception to the rule hardly disproves that.

Still, it's true Shanahan has had great luck with undervalued talent. C Tom Nalen was a 7th round pick that he didn't draft, but he used as a starter. RG Dan Neil was a 3rd rounder and long time starter. T Matt Lepsis was an undrafted free agent. C Ben Hamilton was a 4th rounder. G Cooper Carlisle was a 4th rounder. G Chris Kuper was a 5th rounder.

I don't think he's "building a line on the cheap." I think Shanahan is building the team with the resources he has available. The free agent market was weak, we had other needs in the draft so he is trying to use cohesiveness and familiarity with the system to give us an edge this season.

If 3 or 4 guys from this line prove worthy of starting next season it would be a huge, rousing success.

Skinsfan55 wrote:If 3 or 4 guys from this line prove worthy of starting next season it would be a huge, rousing success.

I think you need to recalibrate that standard.

At least 3 of the current starters should be starting next year, considering you have Trent Williams (4th overall pick), Jammal Brown (big contract just signed), and they just signed Chris Chester to a big contract. That's 2 guys they signed this year to big contracts, and a high first round pick. If any of them aren't starting next year, that's actually a really bad sign...

I think if anyone besides Trent Williams or Jammal Brown becomes a long term starter after this season we'll have found a diamond in the rough. If we find two it would be extremely fortuitous.

Skinsfan55 wrote:I think if anyone besides Trent Williams or Jammal Brown becomes a long term starter after this season we'll have found a diamond in the rough. If we find two it would be extremely fortuitous.

So you'd be okay that the 5 year contract for Chris Chester we just gave would be for a 1 year part time starter?

I sure wouldn't. You pay that kind of cash, you expect a multi year starter.

Why are you drawing this:

PulpExposure wrote:So you'd be okay that the 5 year contract for Chris Chester we just gave would be for a 1 year part time starter?

From this?

Skinsfan55 wrote:I think if anyone besides Trent Williams or Jammal Brown becomes a long term starter after this season we'll have found a diamond in the rough. If we find two it would be extremely fortuitous.

PulpExposure wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:If 3 or 4 guys from this line prove worthy of starting next season it would be a huge, rousing success.

I think you need to recalibrate that standard.

At least 3 of the current starters should be starting next year, considering you have Trent Williams (4th overall pick), Jammal Brown (big contract just signed), and they just signed Chris Chester to a big contract. That's 2 guys they signed this year to big contracts, and a high first round pick. If any of them aren't starting next year, that's actually a really bad sign...

I really wouldn't call Brown's contract "big" for a starting RT. What did he get, $8M guaranteed? Definately not a big contract.

However, I agree with your main point, if those three aren't starting next year it will be bad! If JB isn't starting it will be because of his chronic hip problem (probably why they got him relatively cheap)!

I still would like to have a legit LG, but we don't. We have a guy that is good in space, and is pretty tenacious, but will get just blown up a few times a game whenever he faces a dominant DT.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:If 3 or 4 guys from this line prove worthy of starting next season it would be a huge, rousing success.

I think you need to recalibrate that standard.

At least 3 of the current starters should be starting next year, considering you have Trent Williams (4th overall pick), Jammal Brown (big contract just signed), and they just signed Chris Chester to a big contract. That's 2 guys they signed this year to big contracts, and a high first round pick. If any of them aren't starting next year, that's actually a really bad sign...

I really wouldn't call Brown's contract "big" for a starting RT. What did he get, $8M guaranteed? Definately not a big contract.

However, I agree with your main point, if those three aren't starting next year it will be bad! If JB isn't starting it will be because of his chronic hip problem (probably why they got him relatively cheap)!

I still would like to have a legit LG, but we don't. We have a guy that is good in space, and is pretty tenacious, but will get just blown up a few times a game whenever he faces a dominant DT.

I agree with you analysis of our LG. Pass blocking against the better D lineman was his weakness and what you said can easily be seen on the clips (particularly "Grossman vs the Giants" that I posted from ...here comes... youtube (another royalty check in the bank). In case anyone wants to check it out.

Skinsfan55 wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Red_One43 wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:You can't rate an signing until the end of the season. Only because you don't know how a person is going to be used or if they'll even be here. You also have to look at the guaranteed money. We got most guys on the cheap.

You get what you pay for, usually, which is something people here like to deny. "On the cheap" is another way of saying "camp fodder." You don't win Super Bowls "on the cheap."

LT Joe Jacoby 23 yrs old UDFA
LG Russ Grimm 23 yrs old / 3rd / 69th pick / 1981
C Jeff Bostic 24 yrs old UDFA
RG Mark May 23 yrs old/ 1st / 20th pick / 1981
RT George Starke 34 yrs old / 11th / 272nd pick / 1971

Wow! We got a Super Bowl out of what we paid for for these guys! Sure May cost a lot, but how much does two UDFA's, a 3rd rounder and an 11th rounder cost? Pretty darn cheap and cheap bought us a Super Bowl. It ain't all about name recognition!

...

Check out the roster of the 1982 Redskins there were 12 UDFAs and a lot of players drafter after the 4th round.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... roster.htm

Comparisons to 1982 are irrelevant. In 1982 teams didn't have as many scouts or other resources that they have today. It was far more difficult back then for teams to scout players, and as a result it was more likely that a player would go unnoticed and slip to the latter portions of the draft.

Not to mention that it's anecdotal evidence anyway. The original quote he's debating is "You get what you pay for, usually." One exception to the rule hardly disproves that.

Still, it's true Shanahan has had great luck with undervalued talent. C Tom Nalen was a 7th round pick that he didn't draft, but he used as a starter. RG Dan Neil was a 3rd rounder and long time starter. T Matt Lepsis was an undrafted free agent. C Ben Hamilton was a 4th rounder. G Cooper Carlisle was a 4th rounder. G Chris Kuper was a 5th rounder.

I don't think he's "building a line on the cheap." I think Shanahan is building the team with the resources he has available. The free agent market was weak, we had other needs in the draft so he is trying to use cohesiveness and familiarity with the system to give us an edge this season.

If 3 or 4 guys from this line prove worthy of starting next season it would be a huge, rousing success.

Good point on responding to my post on both your posts.

Here's an O line that was build not from stars but acquired by the Steelers in a cheap fashion and got to the Super Bowl and it's not 1982. Of the 8 listed, 6 are home grown. These guys didn't play well all season, but hey got the job done. The Steelers are addressing this need this off season. My point is you don't have to have all stars at every position. I know that you guys aren't saying that, others are. I am not saying that this is the rule, but it can be done. I also acknowledge that this is not our year, we are still building.

2010 Starting Pittsburgh Steeler Line
Double Slotted starters are due to injuries
Jonathan Scott Detroit Lions / 5th / 141st pick / 2006
LT Max Starks Pittsburgh Steelers / 3rd / 75th pick / 2004
LG Chris Kemoeatu Pittsburgh Steelers / 6th / 204th pick / 2005
C Maurkice Pouncey Steelers / 1st / 18th pick / 2010
RG Ramon Foster - UDFA
RG Trai Essex Pittsburgh Steelers / 3rd / 93rd pick / 2005
RT Flozell Adams Dallas Cowboys / 2nd / 38th pick / 1998 (Past his prime)
Willie Colon was out all year - drafted in the 4th round by the Steelers in 2006.

Red_One43 wrote:2010 Starting Pittsburgh Steeler Line
Double Slotted starters are due to injuries
Jonathan Scott Detroit Lions / 5th / 141st pick / 2006
LT Max Starks Pittsburgh Steelers / 3rd / 75th pick / 2004
LG Chris Kemoeatu Pittsburgh Steelers / 6th / 204th pick / 2005
C Maurkice Pouncey Steelers / 1st / 18th pick / 2010
RG Ramon Foster - UDFA
RG Trai Essex Pittsburgh Steelers / 3rd / 93rd pick / 2005
RT Flozell Adams Dallas Cowboys / 2nd / 38th pick / 1998 (Past his prime)
Willie Colon was out all year - drafted in the 4th round by the Steelers in 2006.

One other thing to point out here is the massive number of players they had on the line. This is indicative of the Steelers (and all good teams') dedication to their offensive line. Multiple picks spent on offensive lineman means a good offensive line.

Skinsfan55 wrote:Why are you drawing this:

PulpExposure wrote:So you'd be okay that the 5 year contract for Chris Chester we just gave would be for a 1 year part time starter?

From this?

Skinsfan55 wrote:I think if anyone besides Trent Williams or Jammal Brown becomes a long term starter after this season we'll have found a diamond in the rough. If we find two it would be extremely fortuitous.

I guess I don't know what your definition of a "long term" starter is. Based on his contract, Chester looks to be here at least 3 years. If he's not starting at $4 million per year, that's a lot of money to pay a backup guard. Of course, I don't know what he got in a guarantee, so that may not be dispositive.

PulpExposure wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:Why are you drawing this:

PulpExposure wrote:So you'd be okay that the 5 year contract for Chris Chester we just gave would be for a 1 year part time starter?

From this?

Skinsfan55 wrote:I think if anyone besides Trent Williams or Jammal Brown becomes a long term starter after this season we'll have found a diamond in the rough. If we find two it would be extremely fortuitous.

I guess I don't know what your definition of a "long term" starter is. Based on his contract, Chester looks to be here at least 3 years. If he's not starting at $4 million per year, that's a lot of money to pay a backup guard. Of course, I don't know what he got in a guarantee, so that may not be dispositive.

I think you were assuming he wasn't slamming the team, and he was

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:I guess I don't know what your definition of a "long term" starter is. Based on his contract, Chester looks to be here at least 3 years. If he's not starting at $4 million per year, that's a lot of money to pay a backup guard. Of course, I don't know what he got in a guarantee, so that may not be dispositive.

I think you were assuming he wasn't slamming the team, and he was

Kaz, stop the hyperbolic nonsense. I was not "slamming the team". I actually think they are handling the offensive line situation as well as could be expected. They are in a very tough spot with a weak FA class, a short offseason and they had other needs to fill in the draft. I think we're going to go into the season with bookend tackles and a really mediocre interior line. Hopefully though, by the end of the season we find at least one out of the three interior linemen as a long term solution.

Maybe Chester will be that guy, maybe he'll be a good fit for the system and become a mainstay. Shanny probably thinks so because of his contract. However it's likely he'll revert to being a backup as he has many times during his career.

Maybe Kory or Monty will step up from humble beginnings and become steady contributors on the line. Then again, maybe they won't. They're total unknowns.

My idea of a long term starter would be someone who starts for 3 years. What are the odds any of those guys fits the bill? If it's one I think we'll be very lucky to have found someone out of that group, two would be unbelieveable.