Page 4 of 5
Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 8:44 am
by SkinsJock
fredp45 wrote:Moss was the last player I would have predicted, but it once again proves -- players from the U can be as much trouble as their worth.
I always used Santana as the one who wasn't a knucklehead...now I have to find another. Maybe McIntosh is my new main guy. I guess Ed Redd is okay.
My gut says, Moss is guilty but I can't see how you suspend him if there isn't some evidence, a name on a sheet doesn't do it for me.
I agree that he should not be suspended for just 'being on the list' - but if it can be found that his name is on that quack's list because he or his representative tried to get this quack to 'help' him then he or his representative was attempting to do something that is commonly called CHEATING
Why contact this quack unless you were trying to get something that you thought could 'help' - just contacting this 'Dr' is cheating - why can't some here 'see' that - this guy has a 'reputation', end of story
Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 8:52 am
by SkinsJock
The quack Dr's lawyer has stated publicly that the main treatments that athletes in the NFL were 'looking for' was to get HGH
in my humble opinion, ANY AND ALL athletes that look into or contact a Dr for HGH or ANY PEDs without going through the NFL or their tream should get suspended - I actually think they should get banned
I also wish the 'clean' guys on their team and in the NFL would do more about 'exposing' any and all players that cheat
Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 9:24 am
by Irn-Bru
Countertrey wrote:yupchagee wrote:Cushing tested positive. Moss hasn't.
Vick was convicted... Burgermeister wasn't... Your point?
Not to mention that Cushing tested positive only for an alleged masking agent. If Moss "hasn't tested positive," it's because
there is no HGH test that NFL players are subjected to. By the end of this investigation, Moss's guilt may be much more apparent than Cushing's.
Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 10:24 am
by SkinsJock
RayNAustin wrote:...Maybe you need to read what I said rather than cherry pick one sentence.
The point I was making is that Moss may not have known he was doing anything wrong ... yet all of you fine squeaky clean saints have already decided the matter ... like some bubba sheriff who says "Boy, we're gonna give you a good lawyer and a fair trial ... and then we're gonna hang you".
As previously stated, the Doctor could have led Moss to believe that nothing in the treatments given him would violate the league rules by simply stating that "No, this treatment won't cause you to fail the testing you are required to submit to". In such a case, the Doc wouldn't have been overtly lying since the substance isn't tested for, so the statement would have been true ... and since this doctor is a highly respected guy who treats a large number of high profile clients ... can you not entertain the idea that Moss (like 90% of the rest of people) trusted the Doctor, and didn't go any deeper into questioning the treatments? I can certainly see this as a plausible scenario.
On the philosophical side of it ... the league rules were instituted ostensibly to curtail performance enhancing drugs that give an undue advantage to athletes who partake ... and certainly not geared toward banning treatmenst that would simply aid the healing process of an injury.
So, from that standpoint, I think taking a zero tolerance, guilty until proven innocent approach is out of line. The onus should be first placed on Doctors who are trained in these matters, and not on the athlete, unless there is clear evidence that the athlete was indeed knowingly taking a substance for the express purpose of gaining advantage by boosting athletic performance pharmacologically.
On a much deeper philosophical level, I disagree with the premise that the NFL (or anyone else) can ignore the principles of due process and guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, subject only to their whim and discretion as sole judge and jury. Under such conditions, our entire society and principles of law and justice could be transformed .. and all employers could take such an approach, punishing employees for a mere accusation or the appearance of wrong doing without a reasonable standard of proof being necessary.
And if you don't believe that is possible ... just re-read some of the posts here that have already issued Moss a suspension, under guilt by association without much thought or discussion, or evidence.
I understand what you're pointing out and I'm prepared to back the players a lot and my own teammates especially
I just have a really big problem with Moss (or whomever represented him)making contact with this 'guy' who I think is a dirtbag and I TOTALLY disagree that he is 'highly respected' - this guy's 'reputation' was that he could give you 'stuff' that the NFL could not detect - IF that is the case then anyone contacting this guy was only doing it for one reason and that was to CHEAT
please find a link for me Ray, where we can see that this quack is highly respected by ANYONE in the world that is opposed to PEDs and drugs in sports - ANYONE?
ANYONE on that list and especially Moss as he was the player that they were on the way to 'visit and treat' in D.C. should be suspended for trying to find a way to CHEAT the NFL and especially the other players and their own teammates
I'm not saying the NFL's policies and procedures are not at fault at all - I'm just pissed that Moss was trying to do something with someone whose only 'reputation' was that he had never been 'caught' - by doing this he has hurt the franchise
what am I missing?
Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 10:50 am
by Paralis
RayNAustin wrote:I don't think half of the comments here display an iota of understanding of the point.
So let's break it down right here, skip the shrill overreactions, and get to the point. To the best of anybody's knowledge, Santana Moss has not only a) not been suspended, but also b) not been referred for additional PED testing scrutiny over and above the 10 random players weekly standard. So this fear about the jackboots coming out is at least a little premature.
One, there is no evidence of wrong doing on Moss's part...
Knowingly false. Per what's been reported of the witness statements linked to Moss, he paid money (including travel expensese) to receive treatment from a doctor not licensed to practice medicine in the US, and knowingly received Actovegin, a non-FDA-approved (i.e. illegal) drug as part of those treatments. These things are, again, illegal. Please note of course that this is just what's been publicly reported in conjunction with the indictment and should in no way be considered an exhaustive representation of any evidence of Moss' PED use.
and two .. the use of HGH in healing an injury is not at all even close to using steroids or other substances for the purpose of enhancing physical performance. So the issue is not so clear cut.
Except that it is clear cut. The NFL, the IOC, and the NCAA all ban HGH as an anabolic agent. Look at it this way. Every single post-training period is injury recovery. It's why steroids make you stronger--not because of some magic that makes your muscles get bigger, but because you heal faster and can train harder. To wit: performance enhancement.
There is NO EVIDENCE that he took HGH, nor even if he did, there is no evidence that he knew it was HGH when or if the Doctor administered it.
See point 2. Unless you have access to a) the indictment, b) the NFL Security investigation files, and c) the eventual court transcripts, then what you're saying is "I haven't seen any evidence." Which is a pretty paltry standard.
Maybe this is too freaking complex for some of you to understand .... but be careful about how much you LOVE the Gestapo ... because the Gestapo don't love you .. except when you're being so compliant and useful.
In a word: what? Please to explain the applicability of a fascist parallel to... and let's not forget this here, a voluntary, informed, and collectively-bargained commercial relationship between two private entities. Hint: the constitution, "proof beyond a reasonable doubt," the Gestapo, and any of the other strawmen contained in the posts above have nothing to do with it. One of the core roles of EVERYBODY's idea of a functioning government (even the anarcho-capitalists) is backstopping the sanctity of private contracts. Arguing against that is basically arguing against society. It's really profoundly simple.
Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 2:45 pm
by yupchagee
Irn-Bru wrote:Countertrey wrote:yupchagee wrote:Cushing tested positive. Moss hasn't.
Vick was convicted... Burgermeister wasn't... Your point?
Not to mention that Cushing tested positive only for an alleged masking agent. If Moss "hasn't tested positive," it's because
there is no HGH test that NFL players are subjected to.
By the end of this investigation, Moss's guilt may be much more apparent than Cushing's.
That is the key phrase. Let's not jump on the guilt bandwagon unless resl evidence is revealed. All we have is the word of a quack's shyster.
Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 11:42 pm
by Irn-Bru
yupchagee wrote:That is the key phrase. Let's not jump on the guilt bandwagon unless resl evidence is revealed. All we have is the word of a quack's shyster.
Uh, we've got a little more than that . . . I'm not calling Moss guilty, but it doesn't look good at all.
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 12:46 am
by PalmettoSkinsfan
The fact that the Dr's assistant was coming to visit moss with HGH in hand when busted says a lot. We don't have to hate Moss now, but if guilty he deserves to face the consequences.
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 6:50 am
by The Hogster
He will and should be suspended. Not for just being on "the list" but for being on "this guys list."
Players are responsible for what goes into their bodies, and when you are dealing with a Canadian doctor who has a reputation as the dope man, you can't plead ignorance.
I'll take the wait and see approach. Wait 4 weeks, and see Santana week 5.
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 12:48 pm
by brad7686
He can't afford to miss games, he might lose his job. People might actually start catching balls and beating press coverage.
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 12:57 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
brad7686 wrote:He can't afford to miss games, he might lose his job. People might actually start catching balls and beating press coverage.
#hyperbole #fail
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 2:52 pm
by brad7686
Chris Luva Luva wrote:brad7686 wrote:He can't afford to miss games, he might lose his job. People might actually start catching balls and beating press coverage.
#hyperbole #fail
Ask Corey Webster if its hyperbole.
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 3:26 pm
by Countertrey
Apparently, somebody didn't watch that game... Webster owned Moss.
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 3:27 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
brad7686 wrote:Chris Luva Luva wrote:brad7686 wrote:He can't afford to miss games, he might lose his job. People might actually start catching balls and beating press coverage.
#hyperbole #fail
Ask Corey Webster if its hyperbole.
Hence proving my point...
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 3:45 pm
by brad7686
Countertrey wrote:Apparently, somebody didn't watch that game... Webster owned Moss.
Yea, Moss is off limits on this board for some reason. He really isn't that good whatsoever, I don't get it.
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 3:48 pm
by The Hogster
Moss was a top flight #2 receiver in his prime, and was never a legit number 1. But, since we've sucked and he was the best we had, he was our number 1. He's no Steve Smith. I.e. he doesn't dominate even when you know he's going to dominate.
Moss has always needed a legitimate possession receiver to keep coverage away from him. That friends is not a number 1. The term Number 1 means that the receiver produces despite the attention he gets on defense...Moss hasn't done that.
With that said, at least he was willing to cheat to improve I guess. "Taking one" for the team so to speak.
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 3:54 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
brad7686 wrote:Countertrey wrote:Apparently, somebody didn't watch that game... Webster owned Moss.
Yea, Moss is off limits on this board for some reason. He really isn't that good whatsoever, I don't get it.
Nope, he's not without flaws. I've always said he's not a #1. Your post was still an exaggeration.
The Hogster wrote:Moss was a top flight #2 receiver in his prime, and was never a legit number 1. But, since we've sucked and he was the best we had, he was our number 1. He's no Steve Smith. I.e. he doesn't dominate even when you know he's going to dominate.
Moss has always needed a legitimate possession receiver to keep coverage away from him. That friends is not a number 1. The term Number 1 means that the receiver produces despite the attention he gets on defense...Moss hasn't done that.
With that said, at least he was willing to cheat to improve I guess. "Taking one" for the team so to speak.
So, should Moss have signed/paid for a #1 WR to come to the team?
Last time I checked, he was just a player. I don't disagree, he's not a #1 but he can't help but to play within the role he's being put into.
IMHO, he's been misused also. While he's NOT a #1, he still wasn't being properly utilized in the role he's in.
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 4:48 pm
by The Hogster
Chris Luva Luva wrote:brad7686 wrote:Countertrey wrote:Apparently, somebody didn't watch that game... Webster owned Moss.
Yea, Moss is off limits on this board for some reason. He really isn't that good whatsoever, I don't get it.
Nope, he's not without flaws. I've always said he's not a #1. Your post was still an exaggeration.
The Hogster wrote:Moss was a top flight #2 receiver in his prime, and was never a legit number 1. But, since we've sucked and he was the best we had, he was our number 1. He's no Steve Smith. I.e. he doesn't dominate even when you know he's going to dominate.
Moss has always needed a legitimate possession receiver to keep coverage away from him. That friends is not a number 1. The term Number 1 means that the receiver produces despite the attention he gets on defense...Moss hasn't done that.
With that said, at least he was willing to cheat to improve I guess. "Taking one" for the team so to speak.
So, should Moss have signed/paid for a #1 WR to come to the team?
Last time I checked, he was just a player. I don't disagree, he's not a #1 but he can't help but to play within the role he's being put into.
IMHO, he's been misused also. While he's NOT a #1, he still wasn't being properly utilized in the role he's in.
Of course Santana does not make personnel decisions. Saying he's not a number one does not mean that he's responsible for finding one. ANd, yes he has been misused in my view. He's better suited to move around and get matched up with safeties and LB's in the slot. We've used him as a primary X receiver. I think we thought his first name was Randy.
Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:37 pm
by chiefhog44
What's the latest on this? Wait and see?
Sorry, wrong link address for Santana Poll
Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 4:26 pm
by TheTruth
Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:46 pm
by langleyparkjoe
So first lemme just say I only read what's on the last page of threads when they have this many pages so I can only comment on what's here.
Brad, my friend.. I agree that he hasn't been a top tier WR in the league and he isn't that good (with us).
I love Santana Moss and I will always want him here and I want him to retire a Skins.. simply because of those 2 years he helped us beat those cows. Ladies and gentlemen let me say this too, no matter what happens with this thing, wether or not he did or didn't, he will always have a place for me a Skins' fan because he helped crap all over the cows.. in dallas.. in less than 4minutes. I'm sure we all have our individual memories of what we were doing at that time.. for me I was in Fridays and a young bama had on a shirt that said "F* The Deadskins" and a cows hat. He talked trash all night and I didn't say a word because I was drinking and I knew I might have crushed his head against the bar.. but anyways... when those plays happened, I got ups and looked at him and I didn't say a word.. I smiled at first and then -->
. So I love this guy Santana Moss, but anwyways..
..I was one of the first who made a comment about him so I don't want ya'll to think I'm a hypocrite. If he did it, give him his 4 games and it will be forgotten in the future.. maybe not forgotten entirely but it won't be in the front or middle of people's minds. Do your time Santana and come back to help us to that 13-3 record I have a crazy feeling about.
Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 7:58 am
by VetSkinsFan
Let's see some of his accomplishments and where he sits with the franchise...
Is ranked eighth in club history with 349 career receptions.
Is ranked eighth all-time in club history in receiving yards with 5,027.
Is eighth in club history in receiving touchdowns with 26.
Owns the club record for receiving yards in a single season (1,483 yards in 2005) with Washington.
His 70-catch average during his four seasons with the Redskins is a record for a franchise that has employed Hall of Fame receivers Wayne Millner, Bobby Mitchell, Charley Taylor and Art Monk.
Has posted three seasons with more than 1,000 yards receiving in his career (2003 with the New York Jets, 2005 and 2008 with the Washington Redskins).
Has 21 career games with more than 100 yards receiving (14 with the Washington Redskins and seven with the New York Jets).
reference
Now I'll agree that he's not putting up Brandon Marshall/Wes Welker numbers, but damn it, he's no scrub. And with the plethora of garbage we've had coaching this team, I think he's done fairly well. It's so much easier to be negative...
Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 8:07 am
by langleyparkjoe
VetSkinsFan wrote:Let's see some of his accomplishments and where he sits with the franchise...
Is ranked eighth in club history with 349 career receptions.
Is ranked eighth all-time in club history in receiving yards with 5,027.
Is eighth in club history in receiving touchdowns with 26.
Owns the club record for receiving yards in a single season (1,483 yards in 2005) with Washington.
His 70-catch average during his four seasons with the Redskins is a record for a franchise that has employed Hall of Fame receivers Wayne Millner, Bobby Mitchell, Charley Taylor and Art Monk.
Has posted three seasons with more than 1,000 yards receiving in his career (2003 with the New York Jets, 2005 and 2008 with the Washington Redskins).
Has 21 career games with more than 100 yards receiving (14 with the Washington Redskins and seven with the New York Jets).
referenceNow I'll agree that he's not putting up Brandon Marshall/Wes Welker numbers, but damn it, he's no scrub. And with the plethora of garbage we've had coaching this team, I think he's done fairly well. It's so much easier to be negative...
The Vet.. HAS SPOKEN!
Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 11:21 am
by Countertrey
langleyparkjoe wrote:VetSkinsFan wrote:Let's see some of his accomplishments and where he sits with the franchise...
Is ranked eighth in club history with 349 career receptions.
Is ranked eighth all-time in club history in receiving yards with 5,027.
Is eighth in club history in receiving touchdowns with 26.
Owns the club record for receiving yards in a single season (1,483 yards in 2005) with Washington.
His 70-catch average during his four seasons with the Redskins is a record for a franchise that has employed Hall of Fame receivers Wayne Millner, Bobby Mitchell, Charley Taylor and Art Monk.
Has posted three seasons with more than 1,000 yards receiving in his career (2003 with the New York Jets, 2005 and 2008 with the Washington Redskins).
Has 21 career games with more than 100 yards receiving (14 with the Washington Redskins and seven with the New York Jets).
referenceNow I'll agree that he's not putting up Brandon Marshall/Wes Welker numbers, but damn it, he's no scrub. And with the plethora of garbage we've had coaching this team, I think he's done fairly well. It's so much easier to be negative...
The Vet.. HAS SPOKEN!
Nothing to add, except...
Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 12:56 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
According to Mike Shannhan, he doesn't feel that Moss will be suspended and that when the FACT come out, it'll exonerate Moss a bit....
Like I said earlier, the facts aren't even out and Skin "fans" of ALL FANS should have been the most patient.