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Post by RayNAustin »

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
broomboy wrote:I agree with Ray 100%. You are more likely to stick with a guy you drafted as to avoid the "bust" label. It should be and will be a competition in camp and the best QB will start.

Sure, stubbornly sticking to players who suck because you drafted them and are too insecure to admit you were wrong. That's how you win three Super Bowls and go into the HOF. Got it. :up:

My career has been in management and management consulting and I can tell you know matter how good anyone is at hiring you make mistakes and no successful performance organization clings to mistakes. The idea of management is to identify and correct mistakes, not defend and cling to them. And no industry is more competitive then the NFL. You're just wrong, sorry. There is no possible way that Gibbs kept him for that reason and the argument Zorn played him because he was hired to coach JC is just bizarre.


And off course we ALL AGREE how wonderful the Redskin management has been the past 10 years, don't we?

Personally, my position on Campbell has been correct ... something you are loath to acknowledge ... but in all fairness to the organization, it's easy for me to say this ... while they were the ones with the vested interest in seeing Campbell develop successfully. When an organization picks a player in the 1st round (in this case two in the same year -Rogers & Campbell) there is the risk that they could make a mistake. History shows at this point, two swings and misses. Neither player has produced at the level to which they were drafted, and only the most stubborn who are inextricably married to their hoped for outcome would argue that.

As for Campbell, he's been on the cusp of developing, but never quite managed to take the next step and become a playmaker. And I don't fault the organization for their commitment to seeing it through ... though I disagreed with their unwillingness to pull him at times when it was called for.

In any event ... it was always just "my opinion" ... be it correct or incorrect about Campbell. And when I said (going into 2008) that he was a poor fit for the WC offense, I based that on the weaknesses he'd demonstrated as compared to the requirements for a WC QB ... quick reads, quick decisions, quick throws ... things Campbell was deficient in.

Going into 2009, most (not all) were optimistic that in his second year in Zorn's offense, he would excell, and have his "Breakout" year. I said no, and that too was correct.

Now ... for the record, I say again, Campbell has demonstrated a slowness at learning new systems and becoming comfortable. He is a purely rhythm QB who has never really excelled in pre-season play. His pre-season work and results have been very mediocre for his entire career ... and it is precisely this reason that I do not believe that he will be considered the starter from the outset, with the job his to lose.

Now, depending on who is competing in camp, and how that all plays out is yet to be seen. Like I said before ... I've never been a Grossman fan, so to me, we now have 3 QBs ... 1 unproven young guy .. and 2 extremely mediocre veterans. The Redskin QB job at this point is wide open, in my opinion ... and whoever shows the better grasp of the offense, and the most effectiveness will wind up the starter in 2010.

In previous years, it was Campbell's job to lose ... not his job to win. This year, he'll have to win it, and the edge starting out is with Grossman.

Just my opinion ... you can bookmark this post, and we can review it at the appropriate time :lol:
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Post by RayNAustin »

1niksder wrote:I keep hearing about Rex and Kyle's offense he may be close friends with Kyle but how familiar is he with the WC offense in general (let alone Kyle's) is something to be looked at.


Well, he spent the year in Houston with Kyle, so his familiarity with the offense has to be more that Campbell or Brennan. Whether he can capitalize on that is the question. Grossman's overall stats are fairly pathetic, really ... a bit under mediocre. By comparison, Campbell looks like Peyton Manning, statistically, though compared to Grossman, that doesn't say much.

1niksder wrote:Jason has been in the East coast version :oops: of the WC offense for two years . In fact Campbell has played 2 of five full seasons in the WC (a scheme he was familiar with from college).

Grossman total familiarity with running Kyle Shannahan's offense consist of one game. He only played because Schaub got hurt early in the game. Rex had nine passing attempts, and was the ball carrier three times. He averaged 0.7 yards per completion than he averaged when the play ended with the ball in his hand.

That's just as confusing as saying " it's a toss up between the two QBs insofar as effectiveness, with Grossman having an early edge"

What edge? His ONLY full season in the NFL was the SB season and he had little to do with that. He threw for 3,193 yards and completed just over 50% of his passes. But it was the Bears, in fact Campbell had better numbers in both years in the WC than Rex had his ONE good year. As far as Rex having a advantage over JC in Kyle's system it is what it is.

What is completing 33% of your attempts for a 3.7 yard average, rushing for nine yards, throwing a pick and getting yanked for a guy with a separated shoulder before half-time?


If you're trying to convince me that Grossman sucks, you've wasted your time. I already agreed with that. My only point was that Grossman has an understanding of the offense ... the terminology ... and the coach. This should be an edge .. and if it isn't, we shouldn't have signed him.


1niksder wrote:Campbell goes in as the better QB, he also goes into camp coming off a 16 games season with four wins. Completion for the starting spot is definately needed. I'm not sure Rex will provide that, and nothing in his past says that he will


I agree. But as I said before .. Campbell hasn't exactly set the world on fire in pre-season play in the past. So it really is more about what Grossman shows in competition, than what has already been decided.

1niksder wrote:I bet Grossman see's this as his buddy giving him one last shot and he bet not screw it up. This could be a good thing, still it's his final shot, and Colt might be him out at #3


I agree again. Heck, I'd like to see Brennan beat both out. And though most would disagree, I think he is capable of doing it, if given a legitimate opportunity.

I DO NOT LIKE what I see in either veteran going into 2010. I think it boils down to who sucks less, and that's not a good thing

1niksder wrote:I really don't see how they can spend a 1st or 2nd on a QB unless they pick up another pick in the first 3 rounds or a 3rd and a later round pick.


I was hoping that the Redskins would go after and get a solid starting O-lineman in free agency along with a older cheaper vet for depth, and then take Okung with the number 4 ... then use the 2nd rounder for a guy like McCoy, who could be there when we pick.

I'm not optimistic about our competitiveness in 2010, given a complete overhaul of the defense ... signing a guy like Grossman ... and a new offense with two mediocre (at best) QBs.

The defense has as steep a learning curve as does the offense ... and we have to standouts from last year that are not happy with the 3-4 (Haynesworth and Carter), with Orakpo better suited for DE in a 4-3, and too small to play DE in a 3-4.

We still have Landry at S, and an aging vet coming in to compete with Rogers. I think the defense could be a total mess for half a season, while the offense is ... well ... taking a step backward with a new system, and a revamped o-line and totally foreign scheme of zone blocking.

I don't know about you ...but this aint the recipe for immediate success.
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

RayNAustin wrote:I've been pretty consistent since early 2007 about my opinion of Campbell, of course, you, on the other hand have been a perpetual fence sitter, agreeing here, disagreeing there ... very safe spot for you to rewrite the history depending on the outcome

Yes Ray, we drafted a late first round quarterback who had been in four systems in four years at Auburn. Now knowing how is career would turn out, I continued to assess his progress and our options and my opinion evolved on what was actually happening. You on the other hand made up your mind on the first day and refused to consider his progress or our options. By evaluating his progress and updating my view of his development, I was "rewriting history." You on the other hand by refusing to consider any information and stick to your pre-conceived view were "pretty consistent." Got it. :up:

I sure hope JC gets more competition this year then Grossman.
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Post by RayNAustin »

I made an assessment on what I saw ... and I told you then that his problems were not "system" related as was one of the claims. And every year, I kept hearing "this year is Campbell's breakout year". Never happened, just as I predicted.

His stats improved under Zorn because 80% of his throws were not much longer than a pitch out. His TD numbers increased by 5 tds over his previous paltry numbers because we were throwing inside the 10 instead of running, with Portis out.

Campbell has been streaky from day one ... problem is his slumps last for 3 or 4 games at a time which allows one slump to kill an entire season.

Campbell is way closer to "sucks" than he is to "very Good".

Exactly what I said in early 2007
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Post by VetSkinsFan »

RayNAustin wrote:I made an assessment on what I saw ... and I told you then that his problems were not "system" related as was one of the claims. And every year, I kept hearing "this year is Campbell's breakout year". Never happened, just as I predicted.

His stats improved under Zorn because 80% of his throws were not much longer than a pitch out. His TD numbers increased by 5 tds over his previous paltry numbers because we were throwing inside the 10 instead of running, with Portis out.

Campbell has been streaky from day one ... problem is his slumps last for 3 or 4 games at a time which allows one slump to kill an entire season.

Campbell is way closer to "sucks" than he is to "very Good".

Exactly what I said in early 2007


You must be proud to have correctly predicted failure in your alleged favorite team... :roll:
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Post by RayNAustin »

VetSkinsFan wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:I made an assessment on what I saw ... and I told you then that his problems were not "system" related as was one of the claims. And every year, I kept hearing "this year is Campbell's breakout year". Never happened, just as I predicted.

His stats improved under Zorn because 80% of his throws were not much longer than a pitch out. His TD numbers increased by 5 tds over his previous paltry numbers because we were throwing inside the 10 instead of running, with Portis out.

Campbell has been streaky from day one ... problem is his slumps last for 3 or 4 games at a time which allows one slump to kill an entire season.

Campbell is way closer to "sucks" than he is to "very Good".

Exactly what I said in early 2007


You must be proud to have correctly predicted failure in your alleged favorite team... :roll:


What an absurd thing to say. The "Campbell Fan Club" were the ones placing Jason's interests ahead of the Team's.

"sorry we lambasted you REPEATEDLY for being wrong, when you were actually right all along" would have been a more appropriate response.
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

RayNAustin wrote:What an absurd thing to say. The "Campbell Fan Club" were the ones placing Jason's interests ahead of the Team's.

"sorry we lambasted you REPEATEDLY for being wrong, when you were actually right all along" would have been a more appropriate response.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. I don't give the clock credit for that.

And while you strut and boast how you were right about how our quarterback sucks and how we don't give you credit for ripping him all along beside you, you portray us all as JC's wench corps while most of us just weren't. We were hopeful, but your endless characterization of everyone but you as, to quote you, as the "Campbell Fan Club" is just pathetic and tired. You've never given any of us who supported him without being unquestioningly sold on him the slightest credit, yet here you are, whining for recognition. Sorry, there is nothing to recognize you for regarding Campbell or the Redskin team you despise even when you're right and we do suck.
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Post by Chris Luva Luva »

Man... I have a feeling this is going to be a shootout for the starting position.
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Man... I have a feeling this is going to be a shootout for the starting position.

I just hope one of our gun slingers don't come with blanks...
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Post by Chris Luva Luva »

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Man... I have a feeling this is going to be a shootout for the starting position.

I just hope one of our gun slingers don't come with blanks...


:lol: :lol:
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Post by 1niksder »

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Man... I have a feeling this is going to be a shootout for the starting position.

I just hope one of our gun slingers don't come with blanks...

I think JC will piss a lot of us off, after he wins the starting job. Colt can't do it.... Grossman is gross and... a late round pick won't be able to un-seat Jason. Passing on a QB in the draft an rebuilding the line is our best option.
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Post by VetSkinsFan »

1niksder wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Man... I have a feeling this is going to be a shootout for the starting position.

I just hope one of our gun slingers don't come with blanks...

I think JC will piss a lot of us off, after he wins the starting job. Colt can't do it.... Grossman is gross and... a late round pick won't be able to un-seat Jason. Passing on a QB in the draft an rebuilding the line is our best option.


And I think this makes the most sense. I don't see blowing a 4th overall pick on a QB and getting him demolished. With the lack fo FA splash we've made, im my meager opinion, I think it's set us up for a OT for that 4th. Not so distant 2nd scenario is trade back and still get an OT in the first.
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Post by Countertrey »

1niksder wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Man... I have a feeling this is going to be a shootout for the starting position.

I just hope one of our gun slingers don't come with blanks...

I think JC will piss a lot of us off, after he wins the starting job. Colt can't do it.... Grossman is gross and... a late round pick won't be able to un-seat Jason. Passing on a QB in the draft an rebuilding the line is our best option.


This is probably as close to the truth as it gets. Campbell has talent. He has skills... but he completely lacks the competitive heart that makes an NFL quarterback. So, in non-game situations, with the "skills" on display, he will beat all comers.

But... you can't simulate game speed. You can't simulate game pressure... and you can't buy a dragon at the concession stand.
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Post by 1niksder »

Countertrey wrote:This is probably as close to the truth as it gets. Campbell has talent. He has skills... but he completely lacks the competitive heart that makes an NFL quarterback. So, in non-game situations, with the "skills" on display, he will beat all comers.

So we should all get ready for another year of JC. Is that a bad thing?
Isn't QB a skill position? They didn't go out and get anyone to really compete with Campbell. Grossman is just here to as a arm that knows the system. Although Kyle Shanahan had the highest ranked passing game in the league last year, Zorn ran the same basic scheme no matter how bad it looked.

Allen and Shanahan can't fix everything at once and it makes sense to start up front. The Redskins ran a wco scheme for the past two years and have been using zone blocking since Saunders second season. Campbell as inproved each year after having his best year the year they switched to the WCO. Colt came here with the scheme in place. They can wait to get a QB, because there isn't a QB out there that can run their scheme without a line in front of them.

Portis called JC out this off-season about him not being a leader or out-spoken. Jason did something Portis and no one else saw coming. He spoke up and didn't back down or take the "high road". He got down to Portis level, and that was the end of that. If you listen to him now, he knows he's going to be here this year. He also knows there is no on the roster that can beat him out for the starting job. He's knows it is pretty much the same verbage as the past two years.

Countertrey wrote:But... you can't simulate game speed. You can't simulate game pressure... and you can't buy a dragon at the concession stand.

True you can't simulate game speed, which is why he has a lock on the job. Colt as ZERO playing time in like games with everybody at "game speed" (that's equal to what any draft pick will have), Rex had 9 passing attempts (971 in his career) last season behind a line that gave up 25 sacks. So no one competing for the job can step right in and not be effected by game speed other than Rex, he's the only one that understands game pressure because he played less than a half in one game last year and has thrown 71 passes since 2008. Campbell threw over 500 last year alone, NONE of them were simulated and it was behind a line that gave up almost 50 sacks, Sacks do not include all of the non-simulated pressure that came with not having any blocking.

If you listen to the press and what is posted on message boards and blogs, Campbell will finally be challenged for the starting job.

No he won't, and here's why I think this....

1. Mike Shananhan spoke to Rex Grossman March 5th (day one of free agency), there was no visit scheduled, money was talked about but wasn't offered. He cut Todd Collins the day before they talked (any QB ranking you look at will Collins ranked higher than Rex). The process has been almost identical for everyone the team has looked at, even the center they had come in before they resigned Casey. Word is "leaked" that player X will visit Redskins Park. If the player does visit, he'll leave without a deal and be rumored to be headed somewhere else. Some left and came back other signed or are still looking.

2. There are too many needs to spend a draft pick on a QB that can step in right now, and Vinny C. never saw a need to draft "or buy" offense linemen, so it has gone neglected for more than a decade. Samuels retirement did nothing to improve the situation. This years draft has more Lineman that can step right now and help a four and 12 team than there are quarterbacks that can.

3. We've seen linebackers, linemen on both sides of the ball, running backs and cornerbacks come in for or will be coming in to visits. All of these players fill positions of need that we all knew about. Grossman fills a hole that was created after the Allen/Shanny crew took over. No visits from anyone that could really challenge Campbell though.

4. JC was only tendered at the first round level not 1st and 3rd. He's only going to get $3.1M this year and may be on the WIDE open market next off season.



If they draft someone early and haven't added more picks then Jason will probably be traded before the season starts for a young lineman and a future pick. May turn out to be a draft day trade.

If not we have a caretaker until the line can gel. If this happens - they may be headed for a bidding war for JC next next year. He won't re-sign here. He said they tried to sale him last year and he sounded anger. I have always said he was better than any other options and a new attitude might be even better.
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Post by CanesSkins26 »

Although Kyle Shanahan had the highest ranked passing game in the league last year, Zorn ran the same basic scheme no matter how bad it looked.

Allen and Shanahan can't fix everything at once and it makes sense to start up front. The Redskins ran a wco scheme for the past two years and have been using zone blocking since Saunders second season. Campbell as inproved each year after having his best year the year they switched to the WCO. Colt came here with the scheme in place. They can wait to get a QB, because there isn't a QB out there that can run their scheme without a line in front of them.


The same basic scheme, yes. However, Houston's passing game was heavily focused on throwing the ball downfield, not the shorter passing game that Zorn favored. And we all know how JC does throwing the ball downfield. The check-down king is going to struggle imo unless Shanahan changes his preferred style of offense.
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Post by Chris Luva Luva »

1niksder wrote:If you listen to the press and what is posted on message boards and blogs, Campbell will finally be challenged for the starting job.

No he won't, and here's why I think this....


While it might not be an open competition... They're going to give the other QB's a chance to show what they can do. Shanny said that there will be a depth chart on day one which proves your point but he also said that the chart is fluid and could change daily.

Whomever shines during the offseason will get time during preseason with the 1st team, whomever that is.
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

1niksder wrote:Allen and Shanahan can't fix everything at once and it makes sense to start up front

The only problem with this is that it takes longer to develop a quarterback. But you can't make a silk ear out of a pig's purse. Which to me says if you find the guy at QB you think you want you have to take him. But other then that scenario, I agree.
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Post by RayNAustin »

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:They have no investment in Campbell like Gibbs did (because he drafted him) or Zorn did (because he was brought in to coach him up).

There is no way I would jump to the assumption that Campbell is going into this thing as the clear starter. He's got a 1 year deal, and his status as the starter will be based on performance in camp and preseason ... not the anointment he has thus far enjoyed

Dude, you are too funny. Yes Ray, everyone deep down knows you were right all along. Gibbs knew it and couldn't cut him because he had drafted him. We'll ignore the hundreds of players and numerous quarterbacks he cut he'd drafted and 3 Super Bowls he won because that's not convenient to the argument. Zorn knew you were right too, but he couldn't face management and say he'd failed in the primary if not only task he was hired for, making sure Jason Campbell, the blessed one succeeded. Instead he started until he got fired, a far better fate then saying JC sucked. Clearly you were right over a HOF coach and former NFL quarterback and quarterbacks coach.

We on the board were of course in love with Campbell all along endlessly touting the Super Bowls he would win, Pro Bowls he would be in for a decade culminating in a first ballot HOF entry. Only the little voice in our head from the heart of Texas we did our best to ignore pulled on our confidence. The truth of the voice becoming louder every day as JC bungled his way. Of course it made us only louder in his praise until finally unable to deny any longer our deep error recognized only by you we finally, at last recognized your keen insight. That you turned out to be right and every Redskin fan and our coaching staff having been wrong just all the more exalting the glory you are here every day to claim.

Yes, Ray, you were right. We were all wrong. Our management, our coaches, our owners, and every Redskin fan but you. Are you happy now?


Well now, given the latest revelations about the open competition at QB, I'd say ... once again ... you're now proven wrong.

Of course you twist and spin, it's what you do.

But, wrong, from any angle.
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Post by skinsfan#33 »

CanesSkins26 wrote:However, Houston's passing game was heavily focused on throwing the ball downfield,


So we have no Andre Johnson, a top 5 WR, (personally I think he is #1, but no one should argue w/top 5) and we have a QB (JC) who is one of the worst downfiled QBs in the NFL (maybe the worst I have ever seen).

If we want to complete four deep balls a game we will need to throw 16-20 deep balls a game and hope none get picked.

I like a downfield type system, I just wish we had the players to implement it! No OL and a QB that vertically (passing) challenged. Moss would work out OK in this system if the first two were fixed. If the first two were fixed and Moss had a Andre Johnson or B. Marshall across from him he would flat out be a monster!

But we're stuck with Jason "I throw Hail Mary passes out of bounds" Campbell and absoluted no LT or RT currently on our team that would even make another NFL team let alone start!

That being said, we absolutely can not afford to draft a QB in the first round. If any possition other than LT is even considered, both Allen and Shanahan should be fired!
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Post by SkinsJock »

skinsfan#33 wrote:That being said, we absolutely can not afford to draft a QB in the first round. If any possition other than LT is even considered, both Allen and Shanahan should be fired!


UNLESS they can find a way to get this guy http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/1313 ... ines;other - in which case we are heading down the path to future success - guaranteed :lol:
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Post by CanesSkins26 »

That being said, we absolutely can not afford to draft a QB in the first round. If any possition other than LT is even considered, both Allen and Shanahan should be fired!


Disagree 100 percent. If Bradford is available we'd be crazy not to take him. He is flat out stud.
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Post by SkinsJock »

CanesSkins26 wrote:
That being said, we absolutely can not afford to draft a QB in the first round. If any possition other than LT is even considered, both Allen and Shanahan should be fired!

Disagree 100 percent. If Bradford is available we'd be crazy not to take him. He is flat out stud.


after what he showed today - is there anyone that would like to say that they would prefer another player in this draft?

now, I'm not sure we will have a choice and Okung is going to be just great, BUt, IMHO, in the future we are going to look back at this draft and wish .... :roll:
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Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
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Post by SkinsJock »

skinsfan#33 wrote:That being said, we absolutely can not afford to draft a QB in the first round. If any possition other than LT is even considered, both Allen and Shanahan should be fired!


Okay - then there's this - http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entr ... ry20672326

now what would you say if Allen and Shanahan were able to bring Bradford here - "you're fired!" or "thank you very much"

are you kidding me :lol:






let's remember this sort of thinking in 10 years :D
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance
Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
CanesSkins26
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Post by CanesSkins26 »

SkinsJock wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
That being said, we absolutely can not afford to draft a QB in the first round. If any possition other than LT is even considered, both Allen and Shanahan should be fired!

Disagree 100 percent. If Bradford is available we'd be crazy not to take him. He is flat out stud.


after what he showed today - is there anyone that would like to say that they would prefer another player in this draft?

now, I'm not sure we will have a choice and Okung is going to be just great, BUt, IMHO, in the future we are going to look back at this draft and wish .... :roll:


I wonder if we make a play for the first pick.
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Gibbs4Life
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Post by Gibbs4Life »

I wonder if we make a play for the first pick.


And I wonder if we did, how much would it take to go from 4 to 1, with potential other teams bidding as well some of them with two picks in the first (Seattle esp)
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