The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

When has he had a successful team to join over the course of 16 games? Please name a time where he was the last piece in a successful offense that simply needed a QB to step in. I'll wait for your answer. I'm sure you can give an example.

VetSkinsFan wrote:When has he had a successful team to join over the course of 16 games? Please name a time where he was the last piece in a successful offense that simply needed a QB to step in. I'll wait for your answer. I'm sure you can give an example.

When was the last time ANY QB has had that opportunity--- and yes it is an opportunity because teams rarely have that and when they do, it is typically a DYNASTY.

BUT, asking when the last time JC had a good team and was unable to perform is an EASY one: 2007. When JC was the QB, though, the team actually wasn't very good. When JC got hurt, the team magically became a good one, winning 4 straight games, against 4 good teams. If I remember correctly, the skins snapped the Vikings 5 game win streak that week, ending their playoff hopes. That game was moved from a 1pm game to a 8pm night game because of the playoff implications. That year we had a good OL, a good RB, good TE, and at least one good WR (but TC somehow managed -- in the dallas game, I believe he only threw to 2 receivers...). I have to say this though: even in that season (prior to the injury), JC did have a huge points per game average - 19. Man, I miss the days when we could average more than 13-15 ppg (as in 2008 and 2009)......

But asking me the question of: when have we had a stellar offense that ONLY needed a QB to complete the puzzle is missing my point. Because that is not my issue. Generally, the QB is the one that makes the offense, not vice versa. Saying that "all you need is a QB" doesn't make sense because the QB is such a key component to the offense. They should be the leader, the provider. And I don't even care if there is an all-pro at every position. All I want is a QB that can win WITH ADVERSITY; WITH ISSUES -- that can raise up the team and win games. Isn't that what good QBs should do? Would you be satisfied with an offense whose main weakness is their QB. Besides the ravens and BUCs over the past decade or two, which SB team has had a "weakness" at the QB positoin?

Asking that question is going into a make believe world, because that won't happen for any team. Every team has holes or something they would like to improve on. Besides, Brady went years without good receivers. Manning, years without a good OL (or this year, an RB). And I use these QBs as examples not because I expect JC to be a hall of famer (which we all know is not the case), but because they are winners and they win championships regardless of the flaws; which is what I want the skins to do. I am not satisfied with making the playoffs every other year.

I can also give you an example of an offense that had everything EXCEPT a quality QB. That team was the 2008 Vikings. They replaced their QB and seem to be doing pretty well this year......

In your example, we had a different o line every week for approximately the first 8 weeks. The oline had solidified (they had played 4 games iwth the same 5 guys). TC had been following Saunders around for years and knew the offense as well as Saunders; it was the reason TC came with Saunders.

...and he choked in Seattle...one play doesn't give the game up. I acknowledge that Moss gave up on a route that TC overthrew anyway.

I'm not advocating JC is the new Peyton, but he's not our largest priority; oline is. The Giants won the SuperBowl against arguably the best offense in NFL history...by overpowering the opposition's oline. If JC has time and can trust that he will have time, he can be a lot better QB than he is.

VetSkinsFan wrote:In your example, we had a different o line every week for approximately the first 8 weeks. The oline had solidified (they had played 4 games iwth the same 5 guys). TC had been following Saunders around for years and knew the offense as well as Saunders; it was the reason TC came with Saunders.

...and he choked in Seattle...one play doesn't give the game up. I acknowledge that Moss gave up on a route that TC overthrew anyway.

I'm not advocating JC is the new Peyton, but he's not our largest priority; oline is. The Giants won the SuperBowl against arguably the best offense in NFL history...by overpowering the opposition's oline. If JC has time and can trust that he will have time, he can be a lot better QB than he is.

Ok, JC can do better with more time.......yes that is true, but it is true for EVERY QB IN THE NFL!! So some new OL picks are going to improve JC's deep passing, ability to read defenses, ability to get the ball out of his hands quicker, create a quicker release, ability to adjust to defenses, ability to slide, become a leader, improve his play action fake, etc. are they???? Saying that our OL is the biggest problem has merit, but saying that new OL will be the best method to score more points is not correct.

Ok on the TC thing, Thats fine. Believe what you want. I do like your excuses. I have heard those before -- you gave the typical JC apologist response. So what you are essentially saying is that JC did understand the offense adequately (constant problem) and that his OL wasn't consistent (constant JC excuse).

And hey, I don't care that TC "chocked" in Seattle. AT LEAST HE GOT US TO THE PLAYOFFS, SOMETHING JC CANNOT AND HAS NEVER DONE. And we lost to a BETTER TEAM. Seattle was a vastly better team than we were. Besdies, TC is the one that got us there. Leave it up to JC and the team would have been watching the playoffs on tv.

And while I agree that OL is a high priority, If we stayed with JC we WILL maintain our mediocrity, regardless of who is at the line. JC has been in NUMEROUS games where he has more than enough time to throw, but he just sat in the pocket and was horrible. We need to get the best available at the QB or OL position in the draft. Personally, I would go QB first because they would have the biggest immediate impact for the team.

The fact is that JC doesn't have what it takes to win with adversity. He needs all the offensive stars to align JUST to be an average QB --- and that hasn't even been proven to me. Regardless, I am not satisfied with that for a QB. If you are, then I assume you are satisfied with a mediocre AT BEST team -- if you want a winner, then we will have to get a new QB. But, if you really believe the excuses you are throwing out and he ends up staying in DC, enjoy the mediocrity (in the good years).

VetSkinsFan wrote:... I'm not advocating JC is the new Peyton, but he's not our largest priority; oline is. The Giants won the SuperBowl against arguably the best offense in NFL history...by overpowering the opposition's oline. If JC has time and can trust that he will have time, he can be a lot better QB than he is.

I just do not think that Campbell is ever going to be a good enough QB - I just don't get the feeling that he can make that big of a difference and the QB should be a key part of the leadership of a team

We do have bigger priorities but while we are going through that process of putting together a team we should have a QB in place that can grow with those guys - this guy should not be a part of our group next year, he should go somewhere else - Campbell has had a tough time here BUT that being said, Campbell himself indicated that he was going to use what happened earlier this year as motivation and he was going to release "the inner dragon" - well he's not really showed much and while the line and other parts of the offense have let all of us down - we have not seen that much fight out of this guy and that is what you need from your QB

He might be here as a back up because the future is very unsure but in my opinion we should bring in a lot of new players on offense next year and one of those is hopefully a long term solution at the QB position

I'm not saying that he's positively nothte problem, but I am saying that there are higher priorities than QB. I'm saying that when JC can trust the oline (which he's never been able to do, except when we were 6-2) then his intangibles WILL in fact get better. If you cannot focus on the task at hand due to circumstances out of your control (see porous o line), then you will not achieve your best. If you can't acknowledge that, then I guess we cannot have an intelligent discussion.

And I have openly admitted that JC did not know the offense as well as TC. I have not proposed that JC is definitely able to be a successful NFL QB. I have proposed that if he were to be able to concentrate predominantly on thepassing game as opposed to the dodging game, then he would be significantly better.

we have a difference of opinion on what Campbell is capable of - I think you're looking at him as not being as effective as he can be because of his lack of confidence in one or all of the following - the line, the offensive co-ordinator, the QB coach or the play calling - I just don't think that Campbell has the talent that you apparently do

given all of the issues listed, I still think he would not be good enough because there are just too many things that he's not picked up since he became an NFL QB and the main ones, for me anyway, are his inability to read defenses both before the snap and as the play happens, the amount of time he takes and his passing touch on both long and short routes - he also does not seem to want to be the leader that in my opinion, a QB needs to be

no worries - hopefully for our team and for Campbell himself he will have a fantastic finish to this year - he indicated before the year that he was going to show everyone how good and how effective he can be - we just have not seen him make that obvious yet - a talented QB would make that apparent, but he still has 6 games to go and to release that "inner dragon" thing he talked about

VetSkinsFan wrote:
...and he choked in Seattle...one play doesn't give the game up. I acknowledge that Moss gave up on a route that TC overthrew anyway.

he choked? HE GOT MURDERED, and still threw for 270 yards and 2 TDs. He was on his backside after every throw. He was mauled ... gang tackled .. he had ZERO PROTECTION in that game. Seattle was in the backfield so quickly, they could have intercepted a hand off.

What a double standard ... complaining about o-line play for Jason, and turning around and saying Collins choked. What a joke.

kinda like this whole season for JC....

Funny how it's acceptable for some, but not for others.

VetSkinsFan wrote:I'm not saying that he's positively nothte problem, but I am saying that there are higher priorities than QB. I'm saying that when JC can trust the oline (which he's never been able to do, except when we were 6-2) then his intangibles WILL in fact get better. If you cannot focus on the task at hand due to circumstances out of your control (see porous o line), then you will not achieve your best. If you can't acknowledge that, then I guess we cannot have an intelligent discussion.

And I have openly admitted that JC did not know the offense as well as TC. I have not proposed that JC is definitely able to be a successful NFL QB. I have proposed that if he were to be able to concentrate predominantly on thepassing game as opposed to the dodging game, then he would be significantly better.

Intangibles are intangibles. In over 90% of all cases, you are born with them or you aren't. Plain and simple. There are things that I mentioned which are correctible, but alas, JC has not improved on them. Is ability to improve an intangible?? Based on your statement, JC could trust the line last year -- YET he didn't improve, but got worse as the season progressed. Why then didn't he get better as you believe he should have -- where, as he did then, have time to focus on the "task at hand"? Why didn't his intangibles improve?

And exactly what I have been saying is that good QBs are able to focus on the task at hand REGARDLESS OF THE ADVERSITY OR ISSUES THAT FACE THEM. The QB is IN CONTROL of everything on the offense. His task at hand is running the entire offense correctly and making plays in that offense. A QB can improve the OL, the RBs, the WRs -- as an example, a QB cannot help the OL block better, but he can make them aware of blitz packages or predict what the defensive line will do and move inside the pocket accordingly -- a QB cannot make an RB run better, but his ability to create an adequate passing attack will cause the LBs to not pack the line and give the RB more running room. He has not improved the offense through his play. He has not played through adversity. The QB is in control of the offense. If you don't understand that, then you are correct in that there is no way we can have an intelligent conversation on this subject.

Also, offenses are created starting with the QB, not vice versa. The QB should not be the last piece of the puzzle. They are the center of the offense. Building an offense from the outside-in is the fastest way to disaster. And yes, on paper, we have worse players at their position than we have at QB (which I actually disagree with, but will accept for arguement purposes), but if you want improvement, the quickest way to do so is by replacing a QB that has proven, time and time again, he will lacks the ability to score, win, and generally lead a team to victory. Replacing one OL (which would be the case for a first round pick) isn't going to have the overall impact that replacing an inept QB would.

frankcal20 wrote:kinda like this whole season for JC....

Funny how it's acceptable for some, but not for others.

This is going to be kinda apples to oranges, but what the heck...

It's acceptable for a career backup that shouldered his team anad led them to the playoffs and at an AWAY game (in a stadium that is KNOWN for being loud), still was able to throw for two TDs.

It's NOT acceptable for a 3 year starter/5 year player at a home game that has only ONCE shouldered his team and they still average less than 20 points/game.

Collins' release is MUCH faster than Campbell's and that coupled with the fact that Collins is able to read defenses better (surprising for a career backup) than Campbell, makes it sad that Campbell still has so many supporters.

A play yesterday had me screaming (ok more than one, but this one in particular) at my TV. Bubble screen to Moss on the near sideline...Campbell gets teh snap, turns immediately to Moss, DOESN'T throw it, but stares at him, giving the defense time to react, and THEN throws the pass. Moss is tackled for a loss. Why didn't he throw the pass IMMEDIATELY, when Moss ISN'T covered, is completely beyond me. Campbell is just too indecisive and slow to react. THAT, with a bad OLine, equals disaster. Just look at the results.

on a bubble screen, the inside WR but get out and engage his block first and foremost. I can't remember, but I know from just running the play, that the end - LT or TE - whoever is there should have blocked the DE that ended up swatting the ball down. The play didn't work for a few reasons.

frankcal20 wrote:kinda like this whole season for JC....

Funny how it's acceptable for some, but not for others.

No, not at all like it. There are others ... such as Rogers doing quite well in spite of being sacked 14 more times than Campbell this year.

Rookies throwing 5 TDs .... when was the last time Campbell threw 5 TDs ? NEVER. How about 4? Nope. 3 ? I think twice in his entire career.

totally different situation. And I would say easily that Rogers right now is a way better QB than JC. Not sure anyone would argue with that. One would debate that Rogers may be a top 8 QB in the NFL. But again, better WR's, better running game and in my opinion a better defense than our Skins. 3 defensive TDs, 14 INT's, 8 f. fumbles vs our 6 int's, no def. TDs but 12 fumbles.

I'm not blaming our D at all for our lack of offense. Want to make that very clear. What's still killing us is not calling passing plays in the red zone. Can't say that JC didn't help us out a lot yesterday. 11 of 11 on 3rd downs. That's amazing numbers. We probably should have thrown the ball more on 3rd down to get the first downs. But not much we all can't say about the offense and their lack of TD's because no one is doing anything to score. I really would love to have seen this team stay somewhat healthy and see how they would have done.

frankcal20 wrote:on a bubble screen, the inside WR but get out and engage his block first and foremost. I can't remember, but I know from just running the play, that the end - LT or TE - whoever is there should have blocked the DE that ended up swatting the ball down. The play didn't work for a few reasons.

COMPLETELY the wrong play that I'm talking about. Moss caught the ball, but for a loss, as I said in the original post. I said that Campbell stared him down prior to making the throw, allowing time for the defenders to react.

Sorry. I don't remember that one play. Maybe b/c we run the bubble screen like 3-4 times a game either to moss, now thomas and even ey back in the day.

Champsturf wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:on a bubble screen, the inside WR but get out and engage his block first and foremost. I can't remember, but I know from just running the play, that the end - LT or TE - whoever is there should have blocked the DE that ended up swatting the ball down. The play didn't work for a few reasons.

COMPLETELY the wrong play that I'm talking about. Moss caught the ball, but for a loss, as I said in the original post. I said that Campbell stared him down prior to making the throw, allowing time for the defenders to react.

Should have been audibled out of. You don't hit a bubble screen against press coverage of Terrance Newman. Bad playcall. If JC can't audible, then he's screwed.

Champsturf wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:kinda like this whole season for JC....

Funny how it's acceptable for some, but not for others.

This is going to be kinda apples to oranges, but what the heck...

It's acceptable for a career backup that shouldered his team anad led them to the playoffs and at an AWAY game (in a stadium that is KNOWN for being loud), still was able to throw for two TDs.

It's NOT acceptable for a 3 year starter/5 year player at a home game that has only ONCE shouldered his team and they still average less than 20 points/game.

Collins' release is MUCH faster than Campbell's and that coupled with the fact that Collins is able to read defenses better (surprising for a career backup) than Campbell, makes it sad that Campbell still has so many supporters.

Last time I checked two TDs is less than 20, so that's really not a point.

Good catch on the line; I'm glad someone understands that THE OFFENSIVE LINE PLAY AFFECTS THE QUARTERBACK. I'm not the only one who sees it anymore.

And didn't Collins play somewhere around 4 games? Nowhere near a season. That could have been attirbuted to the same reasoning as Zorn's success: no game tape since TC is a career backup.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Champsturf wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:on a bubble screen, the inside WR but get out and engage his block first and foremost. I can't remember, but I know from just running the play, that the end - LT or TE - whoever is there should have blocked the DE that ended up swatting the ball down. The play didn't work for a few reasons.

COMPLETELY the wrong play that I'm talking about. Moss caught the ball, but for a loss, as I said in the original post. I said that Campbell stared him down prior to making the throw, allowing time for the defenders to react.

Should have been audibled out of. You don't hit a bubble screen against press coverage of Terrance Newman. Bad playcall. If JC can't audible, then he's screwed.

Since Campbell isn't allowed to audible out, what does that say about the confidence the staff has in him? They'd rather him run a play that's doomed from the start than to trust his judgement?

I think it's more to do with this overall team not knowing the plays well enough. Steve Young, Mooch, etc said that this offense needs a minimum of 3 years to even tap in what you are supposed to do. I don't think it's JC who doesn't know it, but some others. And keep in mind with so many moving parts, those no way the new players are going to know the audibles.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Champsturf wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:kinda like this whole season for JC....

Funny how it's acceptable for some, but not for others.

This is going to be kinda apples to oranges, but what the heck...

It's acceptable for a career backup that shouldered his team anad led them to the playoffs and at an AWAY game (in a stadium that is KNOWN for being loud), still was able to throw for two TDs.

It's NOT acceptable for a 3 year starter/5 year player at a home game that has only ONCE shouldered his team and they still average less than 20 points/game.

Collins' release is MUCH faster than Campbell's and that coupled with the fact that Collins is able to read defenses better (surprising for a career backup) than Campbell, makes it sad that Campbell still has so many supporters.

Last time I checked two TDs is less than 20, so that's really not a point.

Good catch on the line; I'm glad someone understands that THE OFFENSIVE LINE PLAY AFFECTS THE QUARTERBACK. I'm not the only one who sees it anymore.

And didn't Collins play somewhere around 4 games? Nowhere near a season. That could have been attirbuted to the same reasoning as Zorn's success: no game tape since TC is a career backup.

I was quoting ONE game from Collins: an away playoff game. I was giving Campbell his entire NFL career. (I didn't do the research on any of it, but I'm PRETTY sure it's accurate.) So, as far as I can tell, it's still a HUGE point.

Of course the OLine play has an IMPACT on the QB play, but does not DICTATE it. I've seen far worse lines than the Skins, yet those QB's seem to get it done. Rothlisberger, Rodgers, Schaub to name a few.

Collins success had to do with his knowledge of Saunders playbook (although he had no real game experience with it), his quick release, and his reading of defenses. It had NOTHING to do with lack of game film on him. He's a pocket passer for crying out loud. It's not like they needed to know if he was going to tuck and run every other play as a second read, ala Vick. C'mon Vet, get real.

Zorn early success? Lack of tape? I think not. Zorn came out of the gates a gambler willing to take chances. Something happened, I don't know what, but he started calling plays not to lose, rather than to win. It's the same mentallity that Campbell has, not to lose instead of trying to win. Take a GD chance!! Look at the Lions and Stafford. They took a chance and it paid off. The worse thing that was going to happen was that they were going to lose. You'd think that the Skins would be tired of losing and willing to take a chance. I take that back. I'D think that. I havae know idea what YOU think about the matter.

frankcal20 wrote:I think it's more to do with this overall team not knowing the plays well enough. Steve Young, Mooch, etc said that this offense needs a minimum of 3 years to even tap in what you are supposed to do. I don't think it's JC who doesn't know it, but some others. And keep in mind with so many moving parts, those no way the new players are going to know the audibles.

Yes. Let's give Campbell more time. This record has more scratches on it than a catpost.

I wouldn't be complaining so much, but when a crappy team like Detroit not only beat the Skins, but turns around and throws up 5 TDs with a rookie QB, it turns my stomach. I won't even mention Ryan and Flacco.

...they played the browns.

frankcal20 wrote:...they played the browns.

Yep. The Browns that the Skins lost to as well, the last time that they played.

By the way, how many points did the Browns have against Detroit? Now think back, think hard...How many points did the Skins put up against Detroit? I won't even make you think. 14. SAD! Your point is MUTE!

Champsturf wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:...they played the browns.

Yep. The Browns that the Skins lost to as well, the last time that they played.

Huh?

By the way, how many points did the Browns have against Detroit? Now think back, think hard...How many points did the Skins put up against Detroit? I won't even make you think. 14. SAD! Your point is MUTE!

His point is MOOT, not MUTE. However, your overall premise is right; it's pathetic that our offense hasn't produced jack against some of the worst teams in the NFL. 9 against the Rams. THE RAMS!