Time to act on the OL issue

Irn-Bru · Post by **Irn-Bru** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:41 am

Well, we find out starting tomorrow, SJ.

So at least the days of idle speculation are coming to a close.

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:40 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:
PulpExposure wrote:Eli is highly overrated. I'm not even sure I'd say he's a good quarterback; I just think he happens to be in a perfect situation. For example, the year they won the Superbowl, he had a 56.1% completion, 23 TDs and 20 INTs, with a passer rating of 73.9. His overall numbers are 55.9% completion, 98 TDs, 74 INTs, and a passer rating of 76.1. Despite playing with the benefit of a truly great running game (first Tiki Barber, then Brandon Jacobs/Ward/Bradshaw).

Those aren't the numbers of a very good quarterback....

I won't argue that Eli isn't overrated (especially as he is now getting paid more than his brother). However, do stats really tell the whole story?

What other QBs can you imagine leading the game-winning TD drive that Eli led against the Pats? He's had more than a few similar clutch drives in his career. Although I agree that his overall performance is most often average, he knows how to go for the kill when it counts.

Same thing with Roethlisberger. His stats would suggest that he is an average or even below-average QB. But when you look at how he performs in the clutch, it's hard to dispute that there is something there that isn't present in most QBs with average stats.

Obviously it's hard to make the argument I am, since I'm saying that the one objective measure we have, stats, don't really tell the whole story. But I think there is a certain set of intangible qualities that make QBs like Eli, Roethlisberger, and a host of historically-maligned QBs (Terry Bradshaw, for example) better than what their stats say.

Good points, IB. I'm just not sure Eli fits the category. Yes he did have that one drive, but other than the one big play, was he really that impressive during that game, or did the others around him just make him look that way?

PulpExposure · Post by **PulpExposure** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:51 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:What other QBs can you imagine leading the game-winning TD drive that Eli led against the Pats? He's had more than a few similar clutch drives in his career. Although I agree that his overall performance is most often average, he knows how to go for the kill when it counts.

He's a classic hot and cold streaky QB; he just happened to get hot at the end of that year. As for that game-winning drive, you must have forgotten that he benefited immensely from two plays on that drive: (1) a sure-fire INT that he threw RIGHT to Asante Samuel's hands, who promptly dropped it; and (2) while it was pretty amazing he got out of that sack, the real amazing play was the catch made by Tyree...because the throw wasn't on target (it was way high).

Stats may not always tell the whole story, and you're right that he does have that instinct of a closer, so...I'll be happy to concede that he's a mediocre QB with a closer's mentality.

FYI, I wouldn't really use Roethlisberger as a support for Eli. Despite playing with a worse running game and behind probably the worst line in football, Roethlisberger's stats are better. More TDs (101), less INTs (69), higher completion percentage (62.4%), higher yards per attempt (7.9 versus 6.4), and a much better passer rating (89.4).

For what it's worth, Eli's passer rating for his career is hanging out in the realm of JP Losman (75.6) and Jon Kitna (76.6), and below such luminaries as Charlie Batch (77.9), Elvis Grbac (79.6) and Jeff Blake (78.0).

Eli benefits from playing on a really well-put together team. Benefits to the tune of that absurd contract...

And for what it's worth, SkinsJock, in my opinion, Peyton Manning is one of the best QBs to ever play in the NFL. He's not just a "good/great" QB.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:14 pm

sorry - I also would say that Peyton is one of the best QBs to ever play in the NFL - it just bugs me that some ignorant fans think that eli might be even a decent QB - he's not as bad as the worst we have ever seen but he's just not even a good QB in my opinion.

The offensive line he played behind had an incredible string of games at the end of the 2007 season and the game planning for the NE game was great coupled with a couple of miraculous plays - and not plays that had anything to do with the QB being any good - the only thing he might be good at is a spoiled brat :twisted:

KazooSkinsFan · Post by **KazooSkinsFan** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:34 pm

SkinsJock wrote:sorry - I also would say that Peyton is one of the best QBs to ever play in the NFL - it just bugs me that some ignorant fans think that eli might be even a decent QB - he's not as bad as the worst we have ever seen but he's just not even a good QB in my opinion.

The offensive line he played behind had an incredible string of games at the end of the 2007 season and the game planning for the NE game was great coupled with a couple of miraculous plays - and not plays that had anything to do with the QB being any good - the only thing he might be good at is a spoiled brat

You're more negative about Eli then me, but to your point I don't see anything to demonstrate that he's that good. He's an NFL QB for sure, but I was shocked the Giants are paying Eli more then anyone else, including Peyton. Peyton is a phenomenal QB, watch the games and it's obvious. He plays for a team with a lot of weapons over the last few years, but man, he goes back and nails pass after pass. Eli? I just haven't seen him individually do that much. I do think he's a decent QB, but paying him that much? I don't get it either.

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:52 am

I know this is not a thread about Eli and I'll hold the "bashing" for another time BUT but I will add this, Eli, in my opinion (and to your point) would not be as good as Campbell or a lot of other QBs in the NFL if he had to play QB with their offenses and especially behind offensive lines that are nowhere near like that giants group - that is why I do not think he's that good a QB :lol:

He's very lucky to be on that team and now he's the highest paid QB in the NFL and he's certainly not a top 10 QB - the salary situation is really out of whack but in a way I'm glad that that team is overpaying and I hope it's for a long, long time :wink:

We will have better QB stats out of Campbell if the offensive line this year can be a little better than last year - that's for sure

SKINFAN · Post by **SKINFAN** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:51 pm

QB stats don't really tell the whole tale though. I'd measure his progress by W's and L's, or on how many big plays he can produce.

Deadskins · Post by **Deadskins** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:59 pm

SKINFAN wrote:QB stats don't really tell the whole tale though. I'd measure his progress by W's and L's, or on how many big plays he can produce.

Again, that is directly influenced up or down by the team around him.

SKINFAN · Post by **SKINFAN** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:50 pm

Deadskins wrote:
SKINFAN wrote:QB stats don't really tell the whole tale though. I'd measure his progress by W's and L's, or on how many big plays he can produce.

Again, that is directly influenced up or down by the team around him.

to some degree yes, that is true. Todd took the same players he had to the playoffs a while back.

gregory smith · Post by **gregory smith** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:43 pm

OL is a serious issue

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:45 pm

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:47 pm

gregory smith · Post by **gregory smith** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:51 pm

What to do? Levi? Runyan?

SkinsJock · Post by **SkinsJock** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:20 pm

Deadskins wrote:
SKINFAN wrote:QB stats don't really tell the whole tale though. I'd measure his progress by W's and L's, or on how many big plays he can produce.

Again, that is directly influenced up or down by the team around him.

most of us here would agree, especislly after what we saw last season - this offense, like most, IMHO, needs a good offensive line to begin with - then we can look at the other factors like the QB, the RB and the receivers - but the basis for a good offense begins with the guys up front :roll:

I understand that some here just want to say "well, did he win or lose?" but to me, you have a better chance at being successful if you have a good offensive line - you can get lucky or you can ensure a better chance at being lucky :wink:

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:00 am

that's ridiculus to call portis the 3rd best back in the division, he was what, one of only two players ever to have 1500 yards rushing his frst three seasons...

and let's not forget that champ wasn't resigning with the redskins for any reason, so we basically paid a 2nd rounder for the best running back we have had since Riggins. wow, what a bunch of suckers we were!

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:08 am

HEROHAMO wrote:
VetSkinsFan wrote:
HEROHAMO wrote:Laron Landry, he is young and it is obvious he is getting better every year. Losing Landry would hurt but our defense is solid enough to recover from losing him. So gaining a solid line might be worth losing Landry. I hate to say that. We also have a solid Chris Horton and a very good secondary to make up for losing Landry. So gaining a Pro Bowler for Landry might be worth it.

And who would step in a FS? Moore, while getting reviews, hasn't shown enough where he can start. We can't drop Springs back there since we don't have him. That would leave a huge hole back there in centerfield.

HEROHAMO wrote:Chris ey, he is a beloved player. All feelings aside we must detach emotions. Losing Chris ey and gaining a Pro Bowl lineman might be worth it. We have a young Fred Davis who may become good.

So, trade away our Pro Bowl TE and use who? Fred Davis, who has upside, but hasn't proven himself as an NFL caliber TE? I like what he's shown so far, but it's a huge gamble to rely on Davis and Yoder to take up ey's slack. If we had a strong corps of WR, then maybe, but we simply cannot get rid of our best receiver. PERIOD.

If JC was a true franchise QB and all we needed was a lineman to field a killer offense, then I could possibly see it. Based on last year's performance, we have RB who gets run in to the ground and an anemic passing game. We have high hopes, but we cannot get rid of our current stars in this situation.

You bring up some very good points.

Quarterback is definatley a question mark. There are no guarantees that gaining a solid O line would assure our Qb will perform.

I disagree Hamo. I believe with a solid OLine, even Eli manning could win a few games :wink:

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:10 am

El Mexican wrote:Just saying the running game could be fantastic with a quality change of pace back, a la Sproles and LT, a la Byner and Ervins.

Hope the FO unearthed a diamond in the rough this year with either Dorsey or Aldridge.

I don't think Ladanian would be fantastic behind this offensive line. We need OLine plain and simple. You win in the trenches. If we hade the Patriots OLine the last 5 years, Clinton would be on pace to break emmitts record...

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:18 am

Irn-Bru wrote:
PulpExposure wrote:Eli is highly overrated. I'm not even sure I'd say he's a good quarterback; I just think he happens to be in a perfect situation. For example, the year they won the Superbowl, he had a 56.1% completion, 23 TDs and 20 INTs, with a passer rating of 73.9. His overall numbers are 55.9% completion, 98 TDs, 74 INTs, and a passer rating of 76.1. Despite playing with the benefit of a truly great running game (first Tiki Barber, then Brandon Jacobs/Ward/Bradshaw).

Those aren't the numbers of a very good quarterback....

I won't argue that Eli isn't overrated (especially as he is now getting paid more than his brother). However, do stats really tell the whole story?

What other QBs can you imagine leading the game-winning TD drive that Eli led against the Pats? He's had more than a few similar clutch drives in his career. Although I agree that his overall performance is most often average, he knows how to go for the kill when it counts.

Same thing with Roethlisberger. His stats would suggest that he is an average or even below-average QB. But when you look at how he performs in the clutch, it's hard to dispute that there is something there that isn't present in most QBs with average stats.

Obviously it's hard to make the argument I am, since I'm saying that the one objective measure we have, stats, don't really tell the whole story. But I think there is a certain set of intangible qualities that make QBs like Eli, Roethlisberger, and a host of historically-maligned QBs (Terry Bradshaw, for example) better than what their stats say.

I would say that Eli and Ben are completely difffernt Irn. Eli got lucky in the superbowl. He probably could have had 5 or 6 picks in that game, and 3 of them were on that winning drive. Ben on the other hand has great vision, feels pressure and is very tough to bring down. And IMO has just turned the corner. I think you are going to start to see his stats jump and he is on a very run heavy team. Eli's team leans a little more towards passing. Eli is a headcase, which is very noticeable every time he gets heavy pressure, and I hope our defense makes him cry here in a few weeks!

Manchester_Redskin · Post by **Manchester_Redskin** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:59 am

I think we should be applauding Eli .... he's taking up a huge wad of the Giant's salary cap

gregory smith · Post by **gregory smith** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:21 pm

I really wish the team had made some type of effort to fix the line back in August. Here we are in October and sadly many of the OL predictions were right on target. Heyer is a decent backup, that's it. Williams is just not going to cut it and Rinehart should probably be a career backup as well. I told you so never helps, but out of all our linemen we have 2 (or 3 at best) legitimate starters and it will take a miracle for Samuals to play all season. I'm just a fan, but if I knew back in August that our OL was this bad, why was the organiztion willing to go forward with this group? I don't get it. I'm just rambling, but consider how ugly this is going to get with one more injury on the OL. I just don't get it. I say trade one of our better defensive players, one that we might lose in free agency next year. Maybe trade a player who is not playing up to potential, (Landry) A statement type of trade. We have to change the mentality of this team. Bolster the OL by trading one of our bad attitude guys.

skinsfan#33 · Post by **skinsfan#33** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:58 pm

gregory smith wrote:I really wish the team had made some type of effort to fix the line back in August. Here we are in October and sadly many of the OL predictions were right on target. Heyer is a decent backup, that's it. Williams is just not going to cut it and Rinehart should probably be a career backup as well. I told you so never helps, but out of all our linemen we have 2 (or 3 at best) legitimate starters and it will take a miracle for Samuals to play all season. I'm just a fan, but if I knew back in August that our OL was this bad, why was the organiztion willing to go forward with this group? I don't get it. I'm just rambling, but consider how ugly this is going to get with one more injury on the OL. I just don't get it. I say trade one of our better defensive players, one that we might lose in free agency next year. Maybe trade a player who is not playing up to potential, (Landry) A statement type of trade. We have to change the mentality of this team. Bolster the OL by trading one of our bad attitude guys.

Want to help the OL - can't do it in August (or October)

Countertrey · Post by **Countertrey** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:29 pm

A statement type of trade.

More like a 'cut your nose off to spite your face' type of trade.

gregory smith · Post by **gregory smith** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:16 pm

Anyone know if Pete Kendall is still out there? Runyan?

frankcal20 · Post by **frankcal20** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:34 pm

Kendall is still there and so is Runyan.

gregory smith · Post by **gregory smith** » Fri May 06, 2011 9:05 pm

Ok here we are a couple years down the road and still in much the same situation. When the league is open for business how are we going to fix the OL? What is the likelihood of Jamal browns return? Can big mike Williams be counted on to help? What's the plan? Could Donovan be traded for a legitimate lineman? What about free agent options? Help!