The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

markshark84 wrote:Seriously? Rypien may have not been a "great" QB in terms of career, but his 1991 season was argueably the greatest ever by a Skins QB. So, I would say he had a "great" season to win the SB. He was also SB MVP and is considered a "70 greatest Redskin".

As far as Theismann, I am surprised that you would say that about a "70 greatest Redskin", 2 Time Pro Bowl selection --- including the 1983 season in which he won the SB where he was named first team all pro and offensive player of the year. So, it is your opinion that Theismann wasn't a "great" player. We can agree to disagree on that, but his 1983 season was the best in football that year.

They had great seasons, absolutely. But neither one would qualify in a discussion as a "great" quarterback. In a discussion of great quarterbacks, could you honestly put forth even Theismann, and his 2 pro bowls, in a discussion with Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Johnny Unitas, and think that Joey T is even close to those guys? Because those guys were great quarterbacks. Joe Theisman was a good quarterback. Huge difference.

Regardless, there is no denying that you need a QB that has the ability to have one of the best seasons as a QB in the NFL to win a SB.

Again, not true. Dilfer didn't have one of the best seasons when the Ravens won the SB. Likewise, Brad Johnson had an "efficient" season when the Bucs won the SB, not a great one (unless you consider throwing the 8th most TDs that year as great...). Last year, Roethlisberger had a pretty mediocre season (17 TDs and 15 INTs), but the Steelers won the SB. Now if you want to say that Big Ben has the ability o have one of the best seasons, you're right. Neither Dilfer nor Brad Johnson ever had that ability.

Does it help (immensely) to have a great QB. Absolutely; no doubt. You don't need one, however, if your team is good enough.

Again, not true. Dilfer didn't have one of the best seasons when the Ravens won the SB. Likewise, Brad Johnson had an "efficient" season when the Bucs won the SB, not a great one (unless you consider throwing the 8th most TDs that year as great...).

Those are extreme examples. Both of those qb's won on teams that had historically dominant defenses. The Ravens D that year is arguably one of the best ever.

PulpExposure wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:You can be a good team with great offensive and defensive lines but you will not be consistently good without a great QB

How then did Gibbs manage to win 3 superbowls with 3 different QBs, none of which would qualify as "a great QB"?

I agree Pulp. It took Joe many years and the hogs, Riggo and receivers had much to do with it. Williams didn't have the talent around him in Tampa that he did in DC. Mark looked like a goof until late in his career as a Skin. Remember when he used hold the ball like a hot potato behind his back? Don't get me wrong I liked all these qbs but it took time.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Again, not true. Dilfer didn't have one of the best seasons when the Ravens won the SB. Likewise, Brad Johnson had an "efficient" season when the Bucs won the SB, not a great one (unless you consider throwing the 8th most TDs that year as great...).

Those are extreme examples. Both of those qb's won on teams that had historically dominant defenses. The Ravens D that year is arguably one of the best ever.

Wow, great post pointing out the incredibly obvious! Congrats!

Read the context of what I was responding to; I wasn't the one making absolute statements that you need a great QB to win a SB. You don't...it helps, absolutely, but you don't need a great QB.

For your reading reference:

Regardless, there is no denying that you need a QB that has the ability to have one of the best seasons as a QB in the NFL to win a SB.

[/u]

True dat Pulp

SkinsJock* wrote:One of the most important things in building a team should begin, in my opinion, with having (or acquiring) a great QB - Campbell is not that and I think the guys here (Snyder and Zorn) know that - I agree that having good defensive and offensive lines are important but a truly good team will only remain a consistently good team if they have a great QB. You can be a good team with great offensive and defensive lines but you will not be consistently good without a great QB.

Gibbs refuted that notion from '82-'91.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Cappster wrote:What attitude does JC have that is detrimental to the team?

Some people believe that his passive nature is an issue. This "classiness" that he's being heralded for in some peoples opinion extends to Sunday. They believe a team needs a louder voice...

Cappster wrote:I will point out that if he performs well this year that he will be wanted and rewarded with a contract extension.

And if he doesn't he won't.

Cappster wrote:And who says Zorn doesn't believe in him just because the FO has questions?

He and Zorn are tied together, if one fails they both fail. Is Cowher or Shannahan lurking in the shadows? lol

Cappster wrote:I would say it is quite apparent at this point that Zorn feels more comfortable with JC at the helm than either Collins or Brennan.

Of course. But Zorn also stated on the radio that Colts preseason time is going to get heavily increased. Zorn is ready to see what the kid has... He knows he might have to yank the plug on JC if he's still pump faking.

Cappster wrote:It will allow him to read and react instead of read think react.

I hope so. I'm just not sure that he can do it. He made the right reads last year but he's just so scared to make a mistake. That timid nature has nothing to do with his knowledge of the system, it's just him.

He is passive to the media, but what does he say in the huddle, on the sidelines, and in the locker room? Gibbs was never a very in your face type of coach. I don't know how vocal he was, but players played their "guts" out for him.

He won't be here if he doesn't play well and I agree with that sentiment.

Zorn and JC are relying on each other this year and if they don't get to at least the second round of the playoffs, Snyder is going to land one of the big fish and make the big splash that he loves to make.

I am glad that Brennan will get more playing time as we need a viable backup plan. See the thing for me is JC is in a contract year. The good players will respond accordingly. And he has a lot to prove to the FO and everyone else to say hey look at me you <expletive word>! You doubted I could do it and I just did it now show me the respect and show me the money.

If he throws 20+ touchdowns, continues to keep the INT's in check, and leads us to a couple of 4th quarter comebacks, he will be here past next season. I am hoping that he does, because if JC has success this year, everyone on THN and Redskins fans around the world will go into work on Monday mornings with a big smiles on their faces. My glass is only half full, because I drank the other half. I believe in JC as our quarterback.

I really hope JC has a great season and shows the FO they were wrong in trying to trade him.

The first 8 games of the season will be pivotal for him.

Come on JC, show some fire in the belly and just let it rip!!!!

Wow, great post pointing out the incredibly obvious! Congrats!

Read the context of what I was responding to; I wasn't the one making absolute statements that you need a great QB to win a SB. You don't...it helps, absolutely, but you don't need a great QB.

For your reading reference:

For starters, of the two qb's that you mentioned, Brad Johnson actually had a very good year the season that the Bucs won the SB. 22tds and only 6 ints. He was also third in the NFL in qb rating, threw for over 3000 yards, and completed 62.3 percent of his passes. So of the two examples that you site, you were wrong about one. Johnson might not be an all-time great qb, but during his prime he was a very good player and in 2002 had one of the best seasons of any qb in the league.

You might not need a great qb to win the Super Bowl, but the NFL has become much more pass happy than it was in the past and I while it's not a 100% absolute, it is going to be extremely difficult for a team to win the SB without a qb playing at a high level.

El Mexican wrote:I really hoe JC has a great season and shows the Fo they were wrong in trying to trade him.

The first 8 games of the season will be pivotal for him.

Come on JC, show some fire in the belly and just let it rip!!!!

What will be pivital will be how he responds after he throws his 1st INT of the yr.

CanesSkins26 wrote:Johnson might not be an all-time great qb, but during his prime he was a very good player and in 2002 had one of the best seasons of any qb in the league.

Because this is an example of an occasion where someone simply cannot admit when they're wrong and is being pedantic, let's slip to that level.

That season, Johnson had 3049 yards, 22 TDs, and 6 INTs. At 6.4 yards per attempt (which was below the league average).

By comparison, Rich Gannon had 4689 yards, 26 TDs, and 10 INTs. Oh and 7.6 yards per attempt.

Drew Bledsoe had 4359 yards, 24 TDs, and 15 INTs. Oh and 7.1 yards per attempt.

Peyton Manning had 4200 yards, 27 TDs, and 19 INTs. And 7.1 Yards per attempt.

Tom Brady had 3764 yards, 28 TDs, and 14 INTs. And 6.3 Yards per attempt (Johnson beat him in Y/A at least, yay!)

Chad Pennington had 3120 yards, 22 TDs, and 6 INTS. And 7.8 yards per attempt.

Trent Green had 3690 yards, 26 TDs, and 13 INTs. And 7.9 yards per attempt.

Johnson that year was in the top 5 in passer categories (yards, TDs, INTs, Y/A, passer rating, completion percentage, attempts, completions) for TWO categories; passer rating, and interceptions (and one is highly dependant upon the other).

He had a highly efficient year. But "one of the best seasons of any qb in the league"? No. He was maybe 7th; he clearly wasn't as productive as Chad Pennington, for example...and I certainly wouldn't say Chad had a great year, either. Unless you're a big fan of QBs throwing no INTs and producing a few TDs.

Then you must be a HUGE Jason Campbell fan.

Totally agree, Yup.

If he bounces back after the INT's start rolling up, then we will see, finally, that much anticipated maturation we all hope he develops.

You don't need a great quarterback to win a Super Bowl. You just need a quarterback to have a good/great year in addition to a great defense to win a championship. The way things are looking, our defense is going to be great so we just need JC to have a good/great year. Pretty simple concept to me.

to win a superbowl (these days) you need a FO like the steelers, not ours

langleyparkjoe wrote:to win a superbowl (these days) you need a FO like the steelers, not ours

say it ain't so joe....

many teams in the past 15 years have won Super Bowls with less than great QBs but I contend that in order to be a consistently good team you need to have a very good QB - a good QB is not good enough

as far as our team is concerned we need a very good QB and I just do not think that Campbell is that

as far as our team is concerned, it seems to me that we are almost happy with being mediocre and that is why our team is not consistently good anymore

we have a team here that could be good if they get lucky and stay healthy but we should all want a team that can be consistently counted on to be competitive despite the normal grind and injuries - we are not deep enough because we don't do a good enough job of finding players who are not only good starters but also more than adequate back-ups


we are a mediocre team and we hope to get lucky each year - that is a very big shame to me

Jason has to really prevail this year. If the oline still sucks he's going to have to rise above it. He's going to have to still make throws and read in spite of what they're doing because Zorn is playing Colt a lot this preseason....

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Jason has to really prevail this year. If the oline still sucks he's going to have to rise above it. He's going to have to still make throws and read in spite of what they're doing because Zorn is playing Colt a lot this preseason....

This is good. I really want to see more of Colt. I do have faith in JC but unless we get to the championship or bowl I think he is gone which will make lots of people happy. It doesn't hurt to give Colt experience. We already know what Collins can do.

Deadskins wrote:

SkinsJock* wrote:One of the most important things in building a team should begin, in my opinion, with having (or acquiring) a great QB - Campbell is not that and I think the guys here (Snyder and Zorn) know that - I agree that having good defensive and offensive lines are important but a truly good team will only remain a consistently good team if they have a great QB. You can be a good team with great offensive and defensive lines but you will not be consistently good without a great QB.

Gibbs refuted that notion from '82-'91.

I might not be so anxious about our QB if the Gibbs of that era was coaching this bunch

Unfortunately for us the NFL has changed and the offense's are playing a different game than then, and Zorn is not quite there yet - all these things mean we will have a better chance at success over the long term if we have a very good QB which we obviously do not.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Jason has to really prevail this year. If the o'line still sucks he's going to have to rise above it.
He's going to have to still make throws and read in spite of what they're doing because Zorn is playing Colt a lot this preseason....

I think Campbell will be fine Chris - he's going to have a good year and plus he's going to be practicing against a pretty good pass rush each week

I just don't think he's going to be great and that will mean we are just taking longer to get our next great QB out there

Jason rah rah rah Jason rah rah rah
So Long as Colt is ready and Jcam knows it, then we will se a different Jason Cambell than we saw last year,
I say he pulls the trigger, just because he could .........go skins,

This years Offense, and I personally do not usually like to talk about the offense, can afford to take the risk. Unlike last year when ehhh Jcam would maybe pass...naa then run or try to dump it off then fail.
There were not very many quality 12 to 19 yard passes, I agree that Zorn did good for the team in his rookie campagn... I do not completly blame Cambell for some of the mis reads or "lagging" to find the extra reciever or not forcing the pass downfield, there were many factors..... plus Colt was just a rookie, This is a very exciting time for the skins, and the fans. Kudos to Zorn the team and the organization, Cambell is the one man that has made this work, A CLASS ACT, and as stated a few post back has an important job and will either rise above on the playng field, or I am sure he will do anything it takes to win. Not to mention has a pretty darn good running back and some nifty recievers surrounding him.

PulpExposure wrote:

markshark84 wrote:Seriously? Rypien may have not been a "great" QB in terms of career, but his 1991 season was argueably the greatest ever by a Skins QB. So, I would say he had a "great" season to win the SB. He was also SB MVP and is considered a "70 greatest Redskin".

As far as Theismann, I am surprised that you would say that about a "70 greatest Redskin", 2 Time Pro Bowl selection --- including the 1983 season in which he won the SB where he was named first team all pro and offensive player of the year. So, it is your opinion that Theismann wasn't a "great" player. We can agree to disagree on that, but his 1983 season was the best in football that year.

They had great seasons, absolutely. But neither one would qualify in a discussion as a "great" quarterback. In a discussion of great quarterbacks, could you honestly put forth even Theismann, and his 2 pro bowls, in a discussion with Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Johnny Unitas, and think that Joey T is even close to those guys? Because those guys were great quarterbacks. Joe Theisman was a good quarterback. Huge difference.

Regardless, there is no denying that you need a QB that has the ability to have one of the best seasons as a QB in the NFL to win a SB.

Again, not true. Dilfer didn't have one of the best seasons when the Ravens won the SB. Likewise, Brad Johnson had an "efficient" season when the Bucs won the SB, not a great one (unless you consider throwing the 8th most TDs that year as great...). Last year, Roethlisberger had a pretty mediocre season (17 TDs and 15 INTs), but the Steelers won the SB. Now if you want to say that Big Ben has the ability o have one of the best seasons, you're right. Neither Dilfer nor Brad Johnson ever had that ability.

Does it help (immensely) to have a great QB. Absolutely; no doubt. You don't need one, however, if your team is good enough.

Pretty much everything has been said, but I always feel compelled to reply, so in response, I hear you, but disagree in the sense that Johnson did (regardless of you other posts) had a very good, maybe great, season --- and Tampa had an unreal defense that year. I would place the Bucs SB win in the Defensive SB wins category.

When I typed my original response, I was certain that Dilfer would be mentioned ---- REGARDLESS these "defensive" SB wins are in the minority overall. 9 times out of 10 the SB team has a great QB (or a QB that had a great season). Personally, I would much prefer to use the typical SB win track ---- which is mostly won through the QB position.

And in response to the Theismann wasn't Montana, Marino, Unitas, etc. thing -- I never said they were great and never implied that (except 7 who I would say was one of the best QBs for the Skins), BUT we need a QB capable of having a great season. We don't have the defenses of Tampa, Pitt, or Bmore and we won't in the future ---- therefore the best way for this team to get to the SB in the near future is through a great QB ---- AND NEXT DRAFT THERE SHOULD BE A COUPLE COMING OUT.

PulpExposure wrote: ... Does it help have a great QB. Absolutely; no doubt. You don't need one, however, if your team is good enough.

I would agree with that - but unfortunately we have a team that has some really good players but are not a good team, per se.

I guess it's just semantics but I just think that if you really want to help your team be a "good" team consistently, having a good to very good QB helps - it not only gives the offense a better chance to be successful, I think it lifts the whole team to know you have someone 'in charge' that will give you a chance to win more close games than lose them

While you point to Dilfer as an example of a not so great QB - in my opinion, Dilfer was (and may still be) a better leader on the field than Campbell is - Campbell should try and get a little of that desire, it might help him

We have not had a "good" QB like that for a while and while a lot of the offensive woes of last year are not all Campbell's fault, I contend that we would be a better team overall if we had a better QB and that while we could win a Super Bowl with Campbell - we are not going to be a consistently good team until we get a better QB

I know that we seem to be working in that direction but in my opinion if we had better talent evaluators we would already be looking at a new QB and making the other offensive changes we need as well.


we keep making our team better than it was but we are not making our team a better TEAM - AND we are not as far along in this process as we could be because of who is in charge here.