Jason Campbell and Carlos Rogers reached escalator clauses..

[RayNAustin]

You mean, it doesn't pass your smell test.  I could care less.  I firmly believe that Gibbs took a different approach with a veteran (albeit a backup), than a kid who he was trying to develop. 

No, it doesn't pass THE smell test. Collins was able to execute the plays called successfully, whereas Campbell wasn't. That was the difference. The entire offensive strategy didn't flip the moment Collins entered the game cold. To believe otherwise is just reaching.

You can go on all you want about stats and touchdowns.  I look at the bigger picture- such as talent around a QB, strength of schedule, key injuries etc...Fact is, our defense last year was stout, but it failed to create turnovers and short fields- a luxury which many other QB's enjoy, and hence the signings of DeAngelo Hall and Albert Haynesworth.

Touchdowns are the bigger picture. You don't score them, you don't win. That's the big picture. These are the Washington Redskins, not Give Jason a Decade Redskins. And I don't remember a bunch of other guys coming onto the field with Collins. As I recall, he was successful with the same players Campbell had supporting him.

And to blame the offensive woes on the defense is ABSURD. The defense is the only reason why the Redskins didn't wind up with a 4-12 record. And the offense was pathetic in the red zone particularly. In the Eagles 10-3 win, it was the defense that gave the Redskins the ball inside the 20 that led to the ONLY TD of the game.

Against Baltimore, all 10 points were because of turnovers deep in Baltimore territory. Against the Beagles, with the game on the line, the offense goit the ball on the Beagle 13 yard line. Result? A freaking Field Goal. The only Redskin TD in that game was a drive that started on the Beagle 40 yard line. Against the Rams 7 of the 17 was a gift from the Rams 3 yard line.

And the Steelers game?? Don't even go there ... the Redskin offense started 5 drives inside Steeler territory. The first two possessions were from the Steeler 30 that resulted in 2 FGs. If we had any offense at all, we could have been up 21-0 by the 2nd Q instead of losing 23-6.

I could go on and on. But the bottom line is that your claim that the offense didn't get enough help is so totally false, it's criminal. The offense squandered so many scoring opportunities, I can't even count them all. Over the last 7 games, the pathetic 11 points per game would have been 3 points per game without the defensive turnovers and short field given this no account QB. And it even struggled to score when Portis was giving them super human performances.

Youre entiltled to your opinion.  You can wax numbers all you want, look at the Super Bowl winners as of late.  As good as Big Ben is, I credit his excellent receiving core, Dick LeBeau and the Steeler defense just as much, if not more.  Eli Manning is good, but who is he without Plaxico or that stout defense?  I'm not comparing Campbell to these guys, I'm simply making the point that it's not all about the QB like you suggest.

Bologna. The Cardinals wouldn't have even been sold Super Bowl tickets were it not for Curt Warner and his prolific passing. And don't tell me it was the receivers ... Warner did the same thing with the Rams. It's the passer that has to get the ball to the receivers before they can catch it. And Warner threw almost as many TD's in the post season as Campbell did ALL YEAR!

And please do tell me about the hall of fame receivers that caught 23 TD's from Donovan McNabb last year? 4000 yards and 23 TDs from 1 rookie and a couple of average 2nd and 3rd receivers.

Ask Randy Moss if having a QB that can actually throw a pass helps? They had him as washed up and finished until he hooked up with Brady. I say Santana Moss would have similar results with a top rate QB throwing to him. Heck, he had a smoking season in 2005 with Brunell! And just by coincidence, isn't it funny how Santana has somehow lost a step since Campbell has been the starter?

For a guy that wanted to point out speculation and inaccuracies, you used a lot of words in your post like 'seemed', 'about', 'should' and 'assume'. People (not necessarily you), want to go on about how great of a player Brett Farve was.  If he was so great, how come he won 1 championship in nearly 2 decades of playing time?  It was because most of the time in Green Bay, the talent was lacking.  Oh and that time he did win, he had guys like Reggie White on his team.  In football stats such as yardage, and touchdowns are great, but ultimately they don't mean a thing. 

Do you really believe this hogwash you're peddling here? TOUCHDOWNS DON'T MEAN A THING AYE? Maybe not in baseball, but in football they are slightly important. And to the Redskins last year, it was the difference between 13-3 or 8-8. When you fail to score more than 10 points in 6 games .... or fail to score 21 points in 10 games, TDs are important. TDs are like money, they're only important when you don't have any.

Winning is what counts, I think it's crazy to credit or discount a single player (even a QB) for a teams fortunes or otherwise.  Weather you like it or not, there is a certain amount of luck involved in this game.  The football itself is oblong and never bounces the same way.  All things should be considered when trying to gague a player and his progression.

Thanks for pointing out the shape of a football. I had no idea. But I think I've got you halfway back to reality. You agree that winning is what counts. Now all you have to do is acknowledge that scoring points is important to that goal.

I also agree with the luck part. The Redskins were lucky to go 500 last year with that pathetic offense led by that non-playmaker at QB.

[MakeRomoCry]

RaynAustin- youre completely missing the point. Youre exceptionally good at misconstruing everything and putting your own spin on it. You talk about touchdowns as if I said you dont need them, you're funny too. As for the oblong football- it was a metaphor for the game, but you clearly didn't get that.  It takes a team effort to win consistently.  I never once placed all of the blame on the defense. Again, you're confused. I can blame Zorn just as much as the line, receivers or quaterback etc... In fact, if you read this thread in it's entirety, I noted that it would be unfair to leave Campbell out of the blame and that he could have played better down the stretch.  It was a total team collapse.  But it appears that in hopes of making yourself look good, you have overlooked all of those facts.  You mentioned losses and our red zone inefficiency in the Philly, Pittsburgh and Baltimore games... did you ever stop to think that these are the best scoring defenses in the game today?  Jim Zorn came from the school of Chuck Knox.  Zorns offensive philosophy was obviously to develop a small lead and run out the clock much like his mentor "Ground Chuck."  This is my major complaint with the Redskins O the past couple of years- conservative play calling from our past two coaches.  And if Collins was so great, what happened when they did make it to the playoffs? You preach so much about touchdowns he only had 5 in 5 games- He was efficient and nothing more in the regular season, and it also should be noted that he fumbled four times in that five game stretch. But it's unequivocally clear that debating with someone like you would be a lesson in futility, whereas in your opinion, a quaterback is the only one person relevant to a teams success.  That's rediculous. Maybe we should give up our starting QB and a 1st rounder for Cutler like you suggested and then we can just save a bunch of money by signing guys off the street. Good thing youre not a GM.

[RayNAustin]

RaynAustin- youre completely missing the point.  It takes a team effort to win consistently.  I never placed all of the blame on the defense.  I can blame Zorn just as much as the line, receivers or quaterback etc... In fact, if you read this thread in it's entirety, I noted that it would be unfair to leave Campbell out of the blame and that he could have played better down the stretch.  It was a total team collapse.  But it appears that in hopes of making yourself look good, you have overlooked all of those facts.  You mentioned losses and our red zone ineffeciency in the Philly, Pittsburgh and Baltimore games... did you ever stop to think that these are the best scoring defenses in the game today?  Jim Zorn came from the school of Chuck Knox.  Zorns offensive philosophy was obviously to develop a small lead and run out the clock much like his mentor "Ground Chuck."  This is my major complaint with the Redskins O the past couple of years- conservative play calling from our past two coaches.  And if Collins was so great, what happened when they did make it to the playoffs? You preach so much about touchdowns he only had 5 in 5 games- He was effecient and nothing more in the regular season, and it also should be noted that he fumbled four times in that five game stretch. But it's unequivocally clear that debating with someone like you would be a lesson in futility, whereas in your opinion, a quaterback is the only one person relavent to a teams success.  That's rediculous. Maybe we should give up our starting QB and a 1st rounder for Cutler like you suggested and then we can just save a bunch of money by signig guys off the street. Good thing youre not a GM.

I think you're missing the point.

My point is ... was Gibbs the problem ? ... Saunders ? ... Sauders playbook too complex ? .... the receivers too short? lousy hands ? ... the online poor ...
or was it ... GASP ... the freaking QB ??? A QB that, by the way, has admitted to being "uncomfortable" playing under center because he doesn't see the receivers very well, and prefers playing from the shotgun?

My point is ... why three years of excuses for Jason Campbell? What has he done to earn such BLIND devotion? How is it you can question the legitimacy of a Hall of Fame coach with three Super Bowl rings using three different QBs and REFUSE to consider the obvious in a QB that still plays as if it were his first year in the NFL? Why is that ... because to me that's more irrational than trying to blame SPACE ALIENS.

Doubly dubious when you have proof that another QB actually did come in and was extremely productive and successful with ALL OF THE SAME elements that you suggest was causing Campbell so many problems.

That position just makes NO SENSE whatsoever.

Then ... we change the entire offense. Gibbs is gone, Saunders is gone. The complex playbook is gone. Enter Jim Zorn, the QB guru, and what do we have? We have a QB that still can't connect with open receivers down field. We have a QB that throws 8 yard passes too low, too high, or behind receivers. We have a QB who takes too long to make reads, and holds on to the ball forever. And you want to blame anything and everything EXCEPT the guy with the bloody stinking ball in his hands. Does that make sense?

Look, Jason Campbell takes a second too long to make decisions. PERIOD. In your world, 1 second doesn't mean that much. But in the NFL, 1 second is the difference between success and complete failure.

Now, for my last correction of your inaccurate statements, Todd Collins had 7 TD's in 4 1/2 games ... 5 TD's in 3 1/2 regular season games, and 2 TD's in the playoff loss to Seattle where he was knocked silly on almost every pass he threw. Jason Campbell HAS NEVER seen the type of jail break pressure that was all over Collins all game long in Seattle. Had Campbell been the QB, we wouldn't have scored a freaking single FG in that game.

The only game that Collins didn't throw a TD in was the Giants game when there were hurricane force winds, and we still scored 22 points that game.

excerpt from NFL.com "Key stat: The weather conditions clearly affected both quarterbacks. They combined to complete only 34 percent of their passes. The difference was that Todd Collins got big yardage on his successful throws, 20.75 yards per completion), while Eli Manning only got 10.2 yards per completion.

But it couldn't possibly be that simple can it. It makes far more sense to blame a terrible passing game on anything and everything except the guy who is throwing the ball? And when someone else comes in to throw that ball and is successful, well, that was just everything or anything except good play from him too.

I ask you... why even have a QB if it doesn't matter what the QB does?

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck .. guess what? It's a freaking mother of pearl bloody darned DUCK!!!

[MakeRomoCry]

RaynAustin- youre completely missing the point.  It takes a team effort to win consistently.  I never placed all of the blame on the defense.  I can blame Zorn just as much as the line, receivers or quaterback etc... In fact, if you read this thread in it's entirety, I noted that it would be unfair to leave Campbell out of the blame and that he could have played better down the stretch.  It was a total team collapse.  But it appears that in hopes of making yourself look good, you have overlooked all of those facts.  You mentioned losses and our red zone ineffeciency in the Philly, Pittsburgh and Baltimore games... did you ever stop to think that these are the best scoring defenses in the game today?  Jim Zorn came from the school of Chuck Knox.  Zorns offensive philosophy was obviously to develop a small lead and run out the clock much like his mentor "Ground Chuck."  This is my major complaint with the Redskins O the past couple of years- conservative play calling from our past two coaches.  And if Collins was so great, what happened when they did make it to the playoffs?  You preach so much about touchdowns he only had 5 in 5 games- He was effecient and nothing more in the regular season, and it also should be noted that he fumbled four times in that five game stretch. But it's unequivocally clear that debating with someone like you would be a lesson in futility, whereas in your opinion, a quaterback is the only one person relavent to a teams success.  That's rediculous.  Maybe we should give up our starting QB and a 1st rounder for Cutler like you suggested and then we can just save a bunch of money by signig guys off the street.  Good thing youre not a GM.

My point is ... why three years of excuses for Jason Campbell?  What has he done to earn such BLIND devotion?  How is it you can question the legitimacy of a Hall of Fame coach with three Super Bowl rings using three different QBs and REFUSE to consider the obvious in a QB that still plays as if it were his first year in the NFL?  Why is that ... because to me that's more irrational than trying to blame SPACE ALIENS

Actually, let me point out your inaccuracies.  Cambbell has just over 2 years worth of starts, not 3.  And yes, I did question Gibbs the second time around- I understand thats hard for you to comprehend.  I'm sure in your eyes, with your burgandy and gold colored glasses, that your hero, Gibbs could do no wrong.

Doubly dubious when you have proof that another QB actually did come in and was extremely productive and successful with ALL OF THE SAME elements that you suggest was causing Campbell so many problems.

Collin's 5 games that year are completely comperable to Campbells first half of the season last year- if you want to take things out of context.

Then ... we change the entire offense.  Gibbs is gone,  Saunders is gone.  The complex playbook is gone.  Enter Jim Zorn, the QB guru, and what do we have?  We have a QB that still can't connect with open receivers down field.  We have a QB that throws 8 yard passes too low, too high, or behind receivers.  We have a QB who takes too long to make reads, and holds on to the ball forever.  And you want to blame anything and everything EXCEPT the guy with the bloody stinking ball in his hands.  Does that make sense?

Wow, dude.  you are making yourself look like a fool.  You act as though JC could not hit the broad side of a barn.  His completion percentage would tell you otherwise.  Also, your ignorance is showing again with the statement that I blame everyone but the qb, when in fact I included JC in the blame not once, but twice.  You either have A.D.D., or only read what you want to.

Look, Jason Campbell takes a second too long to make decisions. PERIOD.  In your world, 1 second doesn't mean that much.  But in the NFL, 1 second is the difference between success and complete failure.

In your world, there was nothing wrong with the offensive line and pass protection.  This is becoming laughable.

Now, for my last correction of your inaccurate statements, Todd Collins had 7 TD's in 4 1/2 games ... 5 TD's in 3 1/2 regular season games, and 2 TD's in the playoff loss to Seattle where he was knocked silly on almost every pass he threw.  Jason Campbell HAS NEVER seen the type of jail break pressure that was all over Collins all game long in Seattle.  Had Campbell been the QB, we wouldn't have scored a freaking single FG in that game.

Sorry, 5 TD's in 4 games, big difference.  I'm sure you know too, that when a back up QB comes in for a starter, that they usually have success because the opposing teams gameplan gets thrown out the window. (See Byron Leftwich in the Steelers game last year).So Campbell has never seen pressure like Todd Collins did against the Seahawks?  I guess Pittsburgh and Baltimore don't generate the kind of pass rush that Seattle does.  You've got to be kidding me.

But it couldn't possibly be that simple can it.  It makes far more sense to blame a terrible passing game on anything and everything except the guy who is throwing the ball?  And when someone else comes in to throw that ball and is successful, well, that was just everything or anything except good play from him too.

Since you refuse to read what I said- I will point out that everyone including the coaches are to blame.  For you, it's far more easier to blame one guy, than an entire organization.

[RayNAustin]

One more big off season move that the Redskins should try and work ...

Jay Cutler. He's unhappy with Denver, and Denver seems willing to part with him. Jason Campbell and a 1st round pick for Cutler.

Campbell is in the last year of his contract. If he performs at the same mediocre level he has up to now (and there's no reason to believe he won't) , he'll not get re-signed and the Redskins will get nothing.

If Campbell still has value at this point, why not try to move him and attain a player who already has proven to be one of the better young QB's in the league? Since Cutler will have to learn a new system in Denver anyway, the Broncos may believe that they could groom a guy like Campbell instead ... get a 1st round pick, and also get rid of a disgruntled player.

We've worked big deals with Denver before, why not again?

Cutler is a whining baby, who can't face the business realities of the NFL. Essentially, this is all over him hearing that no one is irreplacable, that for the right offer, even he could be traded. Boo hoo.

I'm sorry... of all the players on the team that I want to display some maturity and leadership, it is the quarterback. Cutler is an incredible talent... possibly on a par with Peyton Manning... but his head is a lot closer to Jeff George.

No. Disatisfied as I am with Jason's lack of steel in his spine, I'll stay with him over Cutler.

Most elite athletes are somewhat eccentric in one manner or another. I find it far more understandable/tolerable for a player to get upset about being traded than to whine about money as almost every one of them do at some point .. given the grotesque amounts they are paid.

But more to the point, McDaniels is a numb skull and the Broncos handled the Cutler poorly, and continue to do so. For god sake the kid is a Pro Bowler and one of the truly rising stars in the very early stages of his career. He started about the same time as Campbell, and he's lapped him in production.

I find it ironic that the Broncos would consider their young Pro Bowl QB easily expendable, while the Redskins find it necessary to pamper and molly coddle the underachieving Campbell.

But in this upside down world, I don't suppose anything should be surprising.

[RayNAustin]

Sorry, 5 TD's in 4 games, big difference.  I'm sure you know too, that when a back up QB comes in for a starter, that they usually have success because the opposing teams gameplan gets thrown out the window. (See Byron Leftwich in the Steelers game last year).

No, read my lips ... S E V E N touchdowns in F O U R A N D O N E H A L F games. And no, I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. So, the after the Chicago game, no one else noticed that the Redskins had a new QB. They continued to prepare for Campbell?

So Campbell has never seen pressure like Todd Collins did against the Seahawks?  I guess Pittsburgh and Baltimore don't generate the kind of pass rush that Seattle does.  You've got to be kidding me.

Did you even watch the game? Apparently not. Collins was being gang raped and still managed to throw 2 TDs in that game, while Campbell averages less than 1 per game for his entire career.

I know these numbers are confusing, but, Collins played 1/2 game against Chicago - threw 2 TDs. As I stated, the next week in the hurricane in NY he had 0 TDs but we still scored 22 in no small measure to his 20+ yards per completion that game. (That's 1 1/2 games so far... with me?) The next week against the Vikes he threw 2 more TDs. (That's 4 TD's in 2 1/2 games). Against Dallas he threw 1 TD. Then against Seattle he threw 2 TD's. THAT IS *7* In 4 1/2 games he threw multiple TDs in 3 of them. Of those 4 1/2 games he threw for 1154 yards (average 256 yards per game, and average 26.4 points)

Prior to Collins averaging 26.4 points per game, do you know how many times Campbell actually led the Redskins to 26 points in 13 games that year? Once. Uno, one, that's it. And that was against the hapless Lions.

In 2007, over 13 games Campbell threw multiple TD's 3 times, and threw ZERO TD's 5 times. In 2008 Campbell threw multiple TD's 2 times and ZERO TDs 5 times. That is 10 games out of 29 that he can't manage a single TD pass to anybody ... not the TE, RB or WR. In 2007, it was a full half season before he threw the first TD to a WR.

Do you see the pattern here?

Since you refuse to read what I said- I will point out that everyone including the coaches are to blame.  For you, it's far more easier to blame one guy, than an entire organization.

Oh I'm reading it, I just don't believe my eyes. For me, when a QB throws a 7 yard pass in the flat 3 yards off target into the dirt (with no pressure) I don't blame the groundskeeper.

And by the way, I doubt Brady looks upon McDaniels as a father figure since Brady is 31 and McDaniels is only 32.

[MakeRomoCry]

Do you see the pattern here?

Yes.  You need to watch professional football for a few more years and get some notches on your belt before making anymore player assessments. You're obviously someone who only looks at black and white statistics and you're incapable of analysis otherwise.  You compare a vet with many years of experience in a system, to a young qb who has had to learn a new offense every year. As I stated before, JC has roughly 2 seasons worth of starts and you're already to ship him off and label him as a bust. His play has been mediocre, I never said this guy is the next Peyton Manning, but in that time, with all things considered, that's to be expected.  It's a good thing not everyone in the NFL is as impetuous and brash as you are.

And by the way, I doubt Brady looks upon McDaniels as a father figure since Brady is 31 and McDaniels is only 32.

Another metaphor that went completely over your head, but I wouldn't expect anything less from someone who is short sighted and cant think for themselves.

[MakeRomoCry]

[Hoss]

Friendly reminder before this gets out of hand.

Attack the post, not the poster.

[RayNAustin]

Do you see the pattern here?

Yes.  You need to watch professional football for a few more years and get some notches on your belt before making anymore player assessments. You're obviously someone who only looks at black and white statistics and you're incapable of analysis otherwise.  You compare a vet with many years of experience in a system, to a young qb who has had to learn a new offense every year. As I stated before, JC has roughly 2 seasons worth of starts and you're already to ship him off and label him as a bust. His play has been mediocre, I never said this guy is the next Peyton Manning, but in that time, with all things considered, that's to be expected.  It's a good thing not everyone in the NFL is as impetuous and brash as you are.

And by the way, I doubt Brady looks upon McDaniels as a father figure since Brady is 31 and McDaniels is only 32.

Another metaphor that went completely over your head, but I wouldn't expect anything less from someone who is short sighted and cant think for themselves.

Really ... well, I predicted his mediocre production would continue back in early 07. I suppose it was a lucky guess. So far, he's done exactly what I said he would. He had 4 competent outings last year and twice that many pitiful performances. Almost a mirror image, showing the same faults that he's always displayed which tells me he isn't improving, isn't likely to, and certainly isn't improving at a pace that would suggest that he's anything more than another Kyle Boller or David Carr. His faults that he brought with him to the NFL remain unchanged, and those faults have very little to do with what system is in place or how familiar he is with it.

He's slow, too careful, and he lacks the fire and spirit of a leader. He doesn't have that nack for creating a great play out of nothing, and he misses too many scoring opportunities to be anything other than a liability.

Believe what you want. The numbers don't lie.

[yupchagee]

One more big off season move that the Redskins should try and work ...

Jay Cutler. He's unhappy with Denver, and Denver seems willing to part with him. Jason Campbell and a 1st round pick for Cutler.

Campbell is in the last year of his contract. If he performs at the same mediocre level he has up to now (and there's no reason to believe he won't) , he'll not get re-signed and the Redskins will get nothing.

If Campbell still has value at this point, why not try to move him and attain a player who already has proven to be one of the better young QB's in the league? Since Cutler will have to learn a new system in Denver anyway, the Broncos may believe that they could groom a guy like Campbell instead ... get a 1st round pick, and also get rid of a disgruntled player.

We've worked big deals with Denver before, why not again?

Cutler is a whining baby, who can't face the business realities of the NFL. Essentially, this is all over him hearing that no one is irreplacable, that for the right offer, even he could be traded. Boo hoo.

I'm sorry... of all the players on the team that I want to display some maturity and leadership, it is the quarterback. Cutler is an incredible talent... possibly on a par with Peyton Manning... but his head is a lot closer to Jeff George.

No. Disatisfied as I am with Jason's lack of steel in his spine, I'll stay with him over Cutler.

Good points.
In respect to Cutler, I can think of a million players that can't face the business realities of the NFL, especially the younger ones. Most of these guys have lived sheltered lives and all think they're numero uno. I'm not condoning Jay Cutlers behavior, he certainly could have handled the situation differently. Josh McDaniels is clearly trying to send a message to this team that no one's job is safe and there's something to be said for that. However, this is a coach who was the father figure to Tom Brady, he obviously will have high expectations, coming from New England. On the flip side, I think when an organization finds a rare talent like Cutler, you should give him the reassurance of being the teams leader and build around him. If I were Cutler, I would have been a little bitter about entertaining the notion of being traded for a guy with much less experience just because your new coach has some familiarity with him. Again, he could have handled the whole thing differently and not gone public with his displeasure. I think all NFL players, with the money they make, should shut up and go to work and perform like most of us do in our everyday jobs.

That's many times the number of people who have ever played in the NFL.

[yupchagee]

Do you see the pattern here?

Yes.  You need to watch professional football for a few more years and get some notches on your belt before making anymore player assessments. You're obviously someone who only looks at black and white statistics and you're incapable of analysis otherwise.  You compare a vet with many years of experience in a system, to a young qb who has had to learn a new offense every year. As I stated before, JC has roughly 2 seasons worth of starts and you're already to ship him off and label him as a bust. His play has been mediocre, I never said this guy is the next Peyton Manning, but in that time, with all things considered, that's to be expected.  It's a good thing not everyone in the NFL is as impetuous and brash as you are.

And by the way, I doubt Brady looks upon McDaniels as a father figure since Brady is 31 and McDaniels is only 32.

Another metaphor that went completely over your head, but I wouldn't expect anything less from someone who is short sighted and cant think for themselves.

Really ... well, I predicted his mediocre production would continue back in early 07. I suppose it was a lucky guess. So far, he's done exactly what I said he would. He had 4 competent outings last year and twice that many pitiful performances. Almost a mirror image, showing the same faults that he's always displayed which tells me he isn't improving, isn't likely to, and certainly isn't improving at a pace that would suggest that he's anything more than another Kyle Boller or David Carr. His faults that he brought with him to the NFL remain unchanged, and those faults have very little to do with what system is in place or how familiar he is with it.

He's slow, too careful, and he lacks the fire and spirit of a leader. He doesn't have that nack for creating a great play out of nothing, and he misses too many scoring opportunities to be anything other than a liability.

Believe what you want. The numbers don't lie.

I think your assesment is right on. He simply lacks the temperment to be a starting QB in the NFL.

[RayNAustin]

Well thanks for the support. Finally.

I'm totally shocked by the absence of common deduction with regard to Jason "I need another year to get comfortable" Campbell.

We've all seen the many top prospects from college come into the NFL and fall flat on their faces. It happens more often than not. But Oh no, that couldn't be the case with Jason. He has sooo much talent. He jsut needs better coaching... better play calling .. better receivers .. better o-lineman.

Doesn't everyone. Those are just excuses, not reasons. I'm tired of excuses. Excuses don't feed the bull dog.

[Cooter]

I'm totally shocked by the absence of common deduction with regard to Jason "I need another year to get comfortable" Campbell.

There aren't a whole lot of options to explore at this juncture, what would you propose we do about the QB situation? Please don't mention the trade you proposed on page 7; Cutler, just like Campbell, has proven nothing.

We've all seen the many top prospects from college come into the NFL and fall flat on their faces. It happens more often than not. But Oh no, that couldn't be the case with Jason. He has sooo much talent. He jsut needs better coaching... better play calling .. better receivers .. better o-lineman.

I believe Campbell could be a part of that group you're talking about, but let the kid play his contract out and prove whether those flashes of great play can become a constant.

Excuses don't feed the bull dog.

I must say I've never heard of that expression before .

[CanesSkins26]

There aren't a whole lot of options to explore at this juncture, what would you propose we do about the QB situation? Please don't mention the trade you proposed on page 7; Cutler, just like Campbell, has proven nothing.

There are options out there besides Campbell. For one, there is the draft. There's a good chance that Sanchez will be available at #13. Not saying that we should necessarily draft a qb but the option is there.

As for Cutler, I think that he has proven that he is one of the better young qb's in the NFL. His stats are very good for a young qb and are significantly better than JC's, despite the fact that they have played in almost the identical number of games.

[Cooter]

There are options out there besides Campbell. For one, there is the draft. There's a good chance that Sanchez will be available at #13. Not saying that we should necessarily draft a qb but the option is there.

This is one of the worst draft classes when it comes to QB's, and the team has greater needs to fill. I am not saying he'd be a better option, but we do have another young QB on the roster.

As for Cutler, I think that he has proven that he is one of the better young qb's in the NFL.

What's the difference between the two?

His stats are very good for a young qb and are significantly better than JC's, despite the fact that they have played in almost the identical number of games.

Cutler's record since entering the league is 17-20 and Campbell's is 16-20; I would hardly call that significantly better. Cutler has fumbled more, been sacked less (15 less contributed to better protection and the scheme's/systems movement of the pocket), has 90 more pass attempts, and plays in a completely different system...but has been in that same system since joining the Broncos. Cutler does have 19 more TD's, but has 14 more INT's; to say Cutler is a better option is a reach, and to say his stats are significantly better than Campbell's is an even further reach.

[PulpExposure]

Most elite athletes are somewhat eccentric in one manner or another. I find it far more understandable/tolerable for a player to get upset about being traded than to whine about money as almost every one of them do at some point .. given the grotesque amounts they are paid.

With respect to Cutler, it's a little more than that.

After the season ended, Cutler actually asked the Broncos to trade him, because his BFF OC left for a college position. Poor baby!

Cutler asked for a trade shortly after the Broncos lost offensive coordinator Jeremy Bates -- Cutler's confidant -- to USC after the season. So maybe both sides need to go into marriage counseling here.

However, when they actually listen to trade offers, he gets his panties in a wad and starts whining?

And his reaction is ridiculous. Essentially, until that sit-down meeting, he refused to call or return calls to the Broncos. He gave the Broncos organization the silent treatment. As a 26 year old man!

It's widely reported what a punk he is. He's hyper-arrogant (to the point of annoying; i.e., he's said that his arm is the best in the NFL, and better than John Elway's (he said this in Denver...) or Brett Favre's), and calls out his wide outs on the field, and his defense off-the-field.

“These guys?” the Pro Bowl quarterback asked, gesturing to the players celebrating behind him. “San Diego? No, I don’t think so. I think Indy’ll handle ‘em pretty good. We really can’t stop anybody, and that’s the bottom line.”

Way to be a team player there, Jay.

He's very talented, and there's not one doubt in my mind that he'd be an upgrade, talent-wise, from Campbell. However, I'd take a low-key personality over a whiny crybaby QB to run my team any day of the week.

A real team leader, or hell, a real professional, would probably be unhappy at the trade rumors, but would understandt that this is the business of the NFL, and would use those rumors as fuel to work harder in the offseason, learn the new offense as best as he could, and lead by example.

Not whine to the media, and not return phone calls, and hide in his house.

Edit: And apparently, he just put his Denver-area house up for sale.

What a professional!

But more to the point, McDaniels is a numb skull and the Broncos handled the Cutler poorly, and continue to do so.

I agree with you here. Both sides have acted really poorly.

[RayNAustin]

Cutler's record since entering the league is 17-20 and Campbell's is 16-20; I would hardly call that significantly better. Cutler has fumbled more, been sacked less (15 less contributed to better protection and the scheme's/systems movement of the pocket), has 90 more pass attempts, and plays in a completely different system...but has been in that same system since joining the Broncos. Cutler does have 19 more TD's, but has 14 more INT's; to say Cutler is a better option is a reach, and to say his stats are significantly better than Campbell's is an even further reach.

Their respective records have nothing to do with anything.

Secondly, I'm so sick of hearing about SYSTEMS I could vomit.

Guess what? Cutler began in 2006 under the Broncos System. Campbell started in 2006, under Redskins/Al Saunders system. Campbell played 7 games and Cutler 5. In 2007, Campbell and Cutler played in the same systems that they played in the previous year. So for their first two years, what was the difference? The difference is that Cutler's stats bettered Campbell in virtually every category, comp %.; yards; ave yards; TD's and TD/int ratio and yards per game.

In 2008 Campbell did change systems, and Cutler didn't. Cutler went to the Pro Bowl and Campbell stunk the joint out.

I don't think anyone sober would classify Campbell and Cutler as even remotely similar in performance. Cutler is way ahead, and has been better from day 1.

[Cooter]

Their respective records have nothing to do with anything.

Their records have everything to do with it, and if you ask me that's the most important stat of all.

Secondly, I'm so sick of hearing about SYSTEMS I could vomit.

I hope you didn't puke on your keyboard . When I speak of systems, I am referring to their different identities. Denver's passing game is completely different from the WCO.

The difference is that Cutler's stats bettered Campbell in virtually every category, comp %.; yards; ave yards; TD's and TD/int ratio and yards per game.

And yet the win/loss in virtually the same, and once again a different system. Some system present more opportunities for more yards.

In 2008 Campbell did change systems, and Cutler didn't. Cutler went to the Pro Bowl and Campbell stunk the joint out.

The pro bowl voting is a joke, and Cutler choked down the stretch of 2008 as well.

I don't think anyone sober would classify Campbell and Cutler as even remotely similar in performance. Cutler is way ahead, and has been better from day 1.

I don't drink .

[MakeRomoCry]

Do you see the pattern here?

Yes.  You need to watch professional football for a few more years and get some notches on your belt before making anymore player assessments. You're obviously someone who only looks at black and white statistics and you're incapable of analysis otherwise.  You compare a vet with many years of experience in a system, to a young qb who has had to learn a new offense every year. As I stated before, JC has roughly 2 seasons worth of starts and you're already to ship him off and label him as a bust. His play has been mediocre, I never said this guy is the next Peyton Manning, but in that time, with all things considered, that's to be expected.  It's a good thing not everyone in the NFL is as impetuous and brash as you are.

And by the way, I doubt Brady looks upon McDaniels as a father figure since Brady is 31 and McDaniels is only 32.

Another metaphor that went completely over your head, but I wouldn't expect anything less from someone who is short sighted and cant think for themselves.

Really ... well, I predicted his mediocre production would continue back in early 07. I suppose it was a lucky guess. So far, he's done exactly what I said he would. He had 4 competent outings last year and twice that many pitiful performances. Almost a mirror image, showing the same faults that he's always displayed which tells me he isn't improving, isn't likely to, and certainly isn't improving at a pace that would suggest that he's anything more than another Kyle Boller or David Carr. His faults that he brought with him to the NFL remain unchanged, and those faults have very little to do with what system is in place or how familiar he is with it.

He's slow, too careful, and he lacks the fire and spirit of a leader. He doesn't have that nack for creating a great play out of nothing, and he misses too many scoring opportunities to be anything other than a liability.

Believe what you want. The numbers don't lie.

I'm glad you can see into the future. It's pretty easy to gague what a QB can do whithin his first 2 seasons of starts. Youre quite a Nostradomus, buddy.

At any rate- theres nothing really left to discuss. I think a quarterback (especially one drafted in the first round) should be given atleast 3 seasons of playing time. You, on the other hand, think they should be given much less. If teams operated like you, and just looked at the numbers, players like Drew Brees, Kurt Warner and Matt Hasselbeck wouldnt even be in the league right now. But since you have the super-human power of seeing into the future, some team should hire you.

[MakeRomoCry]

One more big off season move that the Redskins should try and work ...

Jay Cutler. He's unhappy with Denver, and Denver seems willing to part with him. Jason Campbell and a 1st round pick for Cutler.

Campbell is in the last year of his contract. If he performs at the same mediocre level he has up to now (and there's no reason to believe he won't) , he'll not get re-signed and the Redskins will get nothing.

If Campbell still has value at this point, why not try to move him and attain a player who already has proven to be one of the better young QB's in the league? Since Cutler will have to learn a new system in Denver anyway, the Broncos may believe that they could groom a guy like Campbell instead ... get a 1st round pick, and also get rid of a disgruntled player.

We've worked big deals with Denver before, why not again?

Cutler is a whining baby, who can't face the business realities of the NFL. Essentially, this is all over him hearing that no one is irreplacable, that for the right offer, even he could be traded. Boo hoo.

I'm sorry... of all the players on the team that I want to display some maturity and leadership, it is the quarterback. Cutler is an incredible talent... possibly on a par with Peyton Manning... but his head is a lot closer to Jeff George.

No. Disatisfied as I am with Jason's lack of steel in his spine, I'll stay with him over Cutler.

Good points.
In respect to Cutler, I can think of a million players that can't face the business realities of the NFL, especially the younger ones. Most of these guys have lived sheltered lives and all think they're numero uno. I'm not condoning Jay Cutlers behavior, he certainly could have handled the situation differently. Josh McDaniels is clearly trying to send a message to this team that no one's job is safe and there's something to be said for that. However, this is a coach who was the father figure to Tom Brady, he obviously will have high expectations, coming from New England. On the flip side, I think when an organization finds a rare talent like Cutler, you should give him the reassurance of being the teams leader and build around him. If I were Cutler, I would have been a little bitter about entertaining the notion of being traded for a guy with much less experience just because your new coach has some familiarity with him. Again, he could have handled the whole thing differently and not gone public with his displeasure. I think all NFL players, with the money they make, should shut up and go to work and perform like most of us do in our everyday jobs.

That's many times the number of people who have ever played in the NFL.

Seriously dude? Do you guys take everything literally around here?

[MakeRomoCry]

Their respective records have nothing to do with anything

So now wins mean nothing? You're a walking contradiction.

[MakeRomoCry]

Their respective records have nothing to do with anything

So now wins mean nothing? You're a walking contradiction.

Just so everyone knows, this is what you wrote only 3 days ago.

I care about leadership, wins, and points.

Wow.

[RayNAustin]

Most elite athletes are somewhat eccentric in one manner or another. I find it far more understandable/tolerable for a player to get upset about being traded than to whine about money as almost every one of them do at some point .. given the grotesque amounts they are paid.

With respect to Cutler, it's a little more than that.

After the season ended, Cutler actually asked the Broncos to trade him, because his BFF OC left for a college position. Poor baby!

Cutler asked for a trade shortly after the Broncos lost offensive coordinator Jeremy Bates -- Cutler's confidant -- to USC after the season. So maybe both sides need to go into marriage counseling here.

However, when they actually listen to trade offers, he gets his panties in a wad and starts whining?

And his reaction is ridiculous. Essentially, until that sit-down meeting, he refused to call or return calls to the Broncos. He gave the Broncos organization the silent treatment. As a 26 year old man!

It's widely reported what a punk he is. He's hyper-arrogant (to the point of annoying; i.e., he's said that his arm is the best in the NFL, and better than John Elway's (he said this in Denver...) or Brett Favre's), and calls out his wide outs on the field, and his defense off-the-field.

“These guys?” the Pro Bowl quarterback asked, gesturing to the players celebrating behind him. “San Diego? No, I don’t think so. I think Indy’ll handle ‘em pretty good. We really can’t stop anybody, and that’s the bottom line.”

Way to be a team player there, Jay.

He's very talented, and there's not one doubt in my mind that he'd be an upgrade, talent-wise, from Campbell. However, I'd take a low-key personality over a whiny crybaby QB to run my team any day of the week.

A real team leader, or hell, a real professional, would probably be unhappy at the trade rumors, but would understandt that this is the business of the NFL, and would use those rumors as fuel to work harder in the offseason, learn the new offense as best as he could, and lead by example.

Not whine to the media, and not return phone calls, and hide in his house.

Edit: And apparently, he just put his Denver-area house up for sale.

What a professional!

But more to the point, McDaniels is a numb skull and the Broncos handled the Cutler poorly, and continue to do so.

I agree with you here. Both sides have acted really poorly.

Your points are well taken, and Cutler is a bit of a prima donna. Though I wouldn't categorize him in the Ryan Leaf league. He's also likely to be one of the top 5 QB's in the league over the course of the next 10 years too. Part of that success comes from that type of annoying confidence in his own ability, and keep in mind that at 25, he still is a kid, really. He'll mature. Just let Big Al straighten him out in practice a few times, and he'll behave himself!

I think a guy like Zorn could build a strong mentoring relationship with him, and become that security blanket that Cutler obviously needs too.

The difference between him and Campbell is that Cutler is a playmaker, and for him to make the Pro Bowl in only his second full year as the starter is pretty impressive given the QB talent in the AFC.

The Redskins have gone a long time without a true star QB, and IMHO is the biggest missing element on the team now. A good QB that can make plays and avoid the rush could help an aging line, as well as back off defenses that now zero in on Campbell like a 12 point buck in season.

We have a strong defense ... strong enough to go all the way. We need production on offense and that starts with a play maker at QB. We have a Pro Bowl TE, and a promising backup in Davis. We have a deep threat in Moss, and an outstanding set of backs in Portis and Betts. ARE is a good slot guy, and one of the two rookies Kelley or Thomas could emerge if given a QB that can get the ball to them.

Right now, in the NFC east, Romo, McNabb, and Manning are better than what we have, and so long as Campbell is bringing up the rear, so will the Redskins as a team. If we were to obtain Cutler, we would leap frog right back into the thick of it, and be legit contenders for the East and the Super Bowl.

Isn't that the goal? Or is the goal to have a QB that is more politically correct than Joe Gibbs.

Remember, Theisman was a head case too.

[CanesSkins26]

Cutler's record since entering the league is 17-20 and Campbell's is 16-20; I would hardly call that significantly better.

During his last 36 games Drew Brees is 17-19 as a starter, so are you saying that because his record is almost the same as JC's that he is not significantly better?? You can't just look at wins/losses blindly and compare qb's based on that. Last year the Broncos had the same record as the Skins, however, their problem was defense not offense. For the Redskins the opposite was true, our offense stunk. In 2008 the Broncos had the number 2 offense in the NFL and the number 3 passing attack. The Skins, by comparison, had the 19th overall offense and the 23rd ranked passing attack. Conversely, the Redskins had the 4th best defense and Broncos had the 29th ranked D. So it's hard to blame Cutler and the offense for the Broncos' poor record last year. With the Skins, however, JC and the offense are the most to blame for our 8-8 record.