The problem with the Redskins

[SkinsFreak]

I don't think you'll find many who will say Zorn was more qualified than Spags...I don't remember any other team interviewing Zorn for HC...Spags had many offers this year.

Not sure about Caldwell...I think you mean Meeks I'll give you Fassel who wants a job anywhere...but show me a link where those coaches were "itching to get hired by Snyder"

You are right, it was Meeks, not Caldwell... my bad. But I think you're fooling yourself if you think Meeks wouldn't have taken the job... the job opening left by Joe Gibbs.

Fassel, Mooch and Williams would have jumped as well, and again, all had HC experience. I personally watched Mooch on NFLN the day after his interview with Snyder. He was talking to Favre and others about it. Mooch was giddy, wearing a burgundy tie and specifically said he was impressed with Snyder. Although fairly mum due to his contract with the NFLN, it was pretty obvious he was interested.

Another point I think some are forgetting is that Spags was a defensive guy. We all new our defense was pretty good and it was our offense that needed attention. If Snyder wanted a defensive guy, he could have just hired Williams. Snyder stayed with Blache, due to his confidence in Blache and for continuity purposes, and Blache lead this defense to a ranking of 4th best in the league this year, further evidence Snyder made the right choice. Not sure Spags could have done much better.

To date, I completely stand by Snyder's decision to hire Zorn, Mitchell and Sherman... all offensive coaches. It was our offense that needed help, not our defense. Zorn is implementing an West Coast offensive system that's at the complete opposite end of the spectrum from what they had been in for years under Gibbs. So I knew from the start it would take more than one year.

Again, I don't care about Spags and am glad we got Zorn and co. instead. In my opinion, Snyder made the right choice. Zorn is a players coach and quickly earned respect from the team and the fans, so I can completely see why Snyder liked him. But to ignorantly say "no one would touch the job opening with the Skins" the opening left by HoF'er Gibbs himself, is a complete joke and holds no weight in reality whatsoever.

[DEHog]

Fassel, Mooch and Williams would have jumped as well, and again, all had HC experience. I personally watched Mooch on NFLN the day after his interview with Snyder. He was talking to Favre and others about it. Mooch was giddy, wearing a burgundy tie and specifically said he was impressed with Snyder. Although fairly mum due to his contract with the NFLN, it was pretty obvious he was interested.

I believe Williams and Fassel would have…not sure about Mooch…You guys rip me for my sources an now your going by the fact that he wore a burgundy tie??
I do think Mooch would have been a better hire for the Skins and the WCO.

Another point I think some are forgetting is that Spags was a defensive guy. We all new our defense was pretty good and it was our offense that needed attention. If Snyder wanted a defensive guy, he could have just hired Williams. Snyder stayed with Blache, due to his confidence in Blache and for continuity purposes, and Blache lead this defense to a ranking of 4th best in the league this year, further evidence Snyder made the right choice. Not sure Spags could have done much better.

He already had the offensive guy, in Zorn, on staff so I don’t think that was an issue.

To date, I completely stand by Snyder's decision to hire Zorn, Mitchell and Sherman... all offensive coaches. It was our offense that needed help, not our defense. Zorn is implementing an West Coast offensive system that's at the complete opposite end of the spectrum from what they had been in for years under Gibbs. So I knew from the start it would take more than one year.

We disagree… why not hire a coach with WCO HC experience who could mentor Zorn as the OC…best of both world.

Again, I don't care about Spags and am glad we got Zorn and co. instead. In my opinion, Snyder made the right choice. Zorn is a players coach and quickly earned respect from the team and the fans, so I can completely see why Snyder liked him. But to ignorantly say "no one would touch the job opening with the Skins" the opening left by HoF'er Gibbs himself, is a complete joke and holds no weight in reality whatsoever.

This isn’t a conversation about who’s better…are that NO ONE wanted to coach the Skins. We were talking about Spags. I have never said no one would touch the Skins…just that the Skins job under the Snyder regime has lost a lot of its appeal around the league.

I don’t see how a positing coach from another team is the right decision. I’m rooting for Zorn and hope that has success next year, because do any of us think that Snyder will let Zorn continue to coach the Redskins if he doesn’t make the playoffs next year??


One more question…If Snyder was so impress as everyone says he with Zorn…why keep interviewing people ???

[PulpExposure]

One more question…If Snyder was so impress as everyone says he with Zorn…why keep interviewing people ???

It's called due diligence.

I personally believe Snyder could charm the pants off a nun if he wanted to. He DID convince Gibbs to come back, after all.

[SkinsFreak]

One more question…If Snyder was so impress as everyone says he with Zorn…why keep interviewing people ???

It's called due diligence.

Thank you. And it's the responsible and professional thing to do. Due diligence: The process of investigation, performed by investors, into the details of a potential investment, such as an examination of operations and management and the verification of material facts.

And to be honest, its not like the available candidates were all that impressive. I grant you that Spags had a good defense in NY, but we also had a good defense. Spags had very good players in NY and that demands much consideration when evaluating Spags. I personally don't care for Spags and I don't think he'll have anywhere near the success in St. Louis, as they have a horrible defense (ranked 28th) with less good players.

[PulpExposure]

One more question…If Snyder was so impress as everyone says he with Zorn…why keep interviewing people ???

It's called due diligence.

Thank you. And it's the responsible and professional thing to do. Due diligence: The process of investigation, performed by investors, into the details of a potential investment, such as an examination of operations and management and the verification of material facts.

And to be honest, its not like the available candidates were all that impressive. I grant you that Spags had a good defense in NY, but we also had a good defense. Spags had very good players in NY and that demands much consideration when evaluating Spags. I personally don't care for Spags and I don't think he'll have anywhere near the success in St. Louis, as they have a horrible defense (ranked 28th) with less good players.

If Zorn doesn't work out, Snyder will seriously have a pick of great coaches next year. Shanahan, Gruden, Cowher, etc.

As long as they hire a f'ing real GM...sigh.

[Skinsfan55]

If Zorn doesn't work out, Snyder will seriously have a pick of great coaches next year. Shanahan, Gruden, Cowher, etc.

As long as they hire a f'ing real GM...sigh.

You mean one of the architects for the San Fransisco 49ers of the 90's isn't good enough?

Personally, I can't really think of one thing Vinny's done that wasn't based on good sense.

His approach to the QB spot on the Redskins is pretty smart (wait out Jason vs. extending him now)

He drafted Brennan (though Zorn had a hand I'm sure) and Brennan is mile ahead of the other late rounders in the draft now. Also Horton and Rinehart who's been praised pretty highly from what I've seen.

This is the same guy who I think is making the right move with our cornerback situation (keep Hall and trade Rogers)

IMO you can look at most moves at lease since Gibbs took over and trace it to someone besides Vinny, he's just the whipping boy because of he and Snyder's relationship.

[DEHog]

One more question…If Snyder was so impress as everyone says he with Zorn…why keep interviewing people ???

It's called due diligence.

I personally believe Snyder could charm the pants off a nun if he wanted to. He DID convince Gibbs to come back, after all.

Ever heard Arthur Blank talk about Joe Gibbs decision to get beck into caoching?
Arthur Blank was taking a beating from the Atlanta press for not getting Gibbs (who was part owner) to coach the Falcons. So Blank told the story that he was talking to Gibbs on the phone when Gibbs told him he wanted to get back into coaching. Blank didn't ask Gibbs to coach the Falcons over the phone he got into his plane and flew to NC and begged him. Gibbs said he could not see himself coaching any team except the Skins...Blank said. I'd harly count that as Snyder "convincing Gibbs to come back"

[PulpExposure]

IMO you can look at most moves at lease since Gibbs took over and trace it to someone besides Vinny, he's just the whipping boy because of he and Snyder's relationship.

Here's the issue. If Vinny really is the GM, fine. But we don't really know who makes the final call. I've repeatedly said I like the way we've worked the past few years in FA/Draft.

I want some measure of transparency, dammit.

Oh and for the multitude of good draft picks Vinny had in SF, he had some miserable ones as well (JJ Stokes, Jim Druckenmiller). He was in charge of the Niners drafts from 1995 to 1998...and if you look at the draft history in that time, it was pretty uneven.

[fleetus]

One more question…If Snyder was so impress as everyone says he with Zorn…why keep interviewing people ???

It's called due diligence.

I personally believe Snyder could charm the pants off a nun if he wanted to. He DID convince Gibbs to come back, after all.

Ever heard Arthur Blank talk about Joe Gibbs decision to get beck into caoching?
Arthur Blank was taking a beating from the Atlanta press for not getting Gibbs (who was part owner) to coach the Falcons. So Blank told the story that he was talking to Gibbs on the phone when Gibbs told him he wanted to get back into coaching. Blank didn't ask Gibbs to coach the Falcons over the phone he got into his plane and flew to NC and begged him. Gibbs said he could not see himself coaching any team except the Skins...Blank said. I'd harly count that as Snyder "convincing Gibbs to come back"

Just curious. Do you know whether Snyder had spoken to Gibbs before he made that statement to Blank? if not, then you don't know whether Snyder convinced him or not.

[fleetus]

IMO you can look at most moves at lease since Gibbs took over and trace it to someone besides Vinny, he's just the whipping boy because of he and Snyder's relationship.

Here's the issue. If Vinny really is the GM, fine. But we don't really know who makes the final call. I've repeatedly said I like the way we've worked the past few years in FA/Draft.

I want some measure of transparency, dammit.

Oh and for the multitude of good draft picks Vinny had in SF, he had some miserable ones as well (JJ Stokes, Jim Druckenmiller). He was in charge of the Niners drafts from 1995 to 1998...and if you look at the draft history in that time, it was pretty uneven.

Every NFL team has their fair share of good picks and bad ones. Personally, I think coaching has more to do with draft success than GM's. There are some coaching staff's that can routinely turn rookies into productive players. Then everyone sings the praises of the GM.

Bottom line is, we need some continuity. If we manage to keep Zorn and some of the assistants and begin to place more importance on keeping all of our draft picks, maybe even trying to add draft picks, i think we will develop more good young players.

[Irn-Bru]

Here's the issue. If Vinny really is the GM, fine. But we don't really know who makes the final call. I've repeatedly said I like the way we've worked the past few years in FA/Draft.

I was pretty sure that Vinny got a 'promotion' (in quotes because it was a strange one) and was named, officially, the number one guy when it came to personnel decisions. Maybe Danny is still actively working behind the scenes, maybe not. But Vinny's role is about as transparent as it is going to get: he is, nominally at least, the one making the final call.

[Irn-Bru]

In fact, reading back on some of the comments in this thread I think people are stuck in 2006. WE NOW HAVE A GM. It's Vinny. Surprise.

If you want to talk about hiring ANOTHER one, fine, but I wish everyone would stop acting like there is no one in charge OR that there might be an empty slot to fill. If Snyder were to hire a GM at this point, he'd have to fire Vinny or change his official job title. For better or worse, the leadership structure DID solidify in the last year at Redskins park.

[Skinsfan55]

IMO you can look at most moves at lease since Gibbs took over and trace it to someone besides Vinny, he's just the whipping boy because of he and Snyder's relationship.

Here's the issue. If Vinny really is the GM, fine. But we don't really know who makes the final call. I've repeatedly said I like the way we've worked the past few years in FA/Draft.

I want some measure of transparency, dammit.

Oh and for the multitude of good draft picks Vinny had in SF, he had some miserable ones as well (JJ Stokes, Jim Druckenmiller). He was in charge of the Niners drafts from 1995 to 1998...and if you look at the draft history in that time, it was pretty uneven.

In every NFL organization we know the owner has final say. It's his money.

That said, I think we have transparency with the Redskins. Vinny is the head front office guy, Snyder goes and recruits for them with Redskins One.

[El Mexican]

IMO you can look at most moves at lease since Gibbs took over and trace it to someone besides Vinny, he's just the whipping boy because of he and Snyder's relationship.

Here's the issue. If Vinny really is the GM, fine. But we don't really know who makes the final call. I've repeatedly said I like the way we've worked the past few years in FA/Draft.

I want some measure of transparency, dammit.

Oh and for the multitude of good draft picks Vinny had in SF, he had some miserable ones as well (JJ Stokes, Jim Druckenmiller). He was in charge of the Niners drafts from 1995 to 1998...and if you look at the draft history in that time, it was pretty uneven.

In every NFL organization we know the owner has final say. It's his money.

That said, I think we have transparency with the Redskins. Vinny is the head front office guy, Snyder goes and recruits for them with Redskins One.

(Shivers...)

Sorry, couldn't help myself after reading about our FO.

[SkinsFreak]

Here's the issue. If Vinny really is the GM, fine. But we don't really know who makes the final call. I've repeatedly said I like the way we've worked the past few years in FA/Draft.

I was pretty sure that Vinny got a 'promotion' (in quotes because it was a strange one) and was named, officially, the number one guy when it came to personnel decisions. Maybe Danny is still actively working behind the scenes, maybe not. But Vinny's role is about as transparent as it is going to get: he is, nominally at least, the one making the final call.

That's exactly right, and many front offices are set up that way, so it's not unique for the Skins. The Pat's, for example, for many years now have had no person with an official "GM" title. Pioli had the same title as Vinny now has and was performing the GM duties, as Vinny currently is doing. I actually remember threads and posts here saying that with Vinny's promotion, he finally held the responsibility and could be legitimately blamed for all that goes wrong. lol...

It's funny actually... some say Vinny is Danny's "yes man". I actually think it's just the opposite now. Maybe early on it was Snyder that wanted to sign Bruce Smith and Deion Sanders, but over the past half decade, I actually think Snyder relies heavily on the information supplied by Vinny and his scouting department and what the coaches say they want. I think Snyder is Vinny's "yes man".... lol. I see no evidence, whatsoever, that Snyder is exclusively calling the shots. Perhaps Snyder holds too much confidence in Vinny's abilities, but the past half decade has been better than the previous one.

[PulpExposure]

Here's the issue. If Vinny really is the GM, fine. But we don't really know who makes the final call. I've repeatedly said I like the way we've worked the past few years in FA/Draft.

I was pretty sure that Vinny got a 'promotion' (in quotes because it was a strange one) and was named, officially, the number one guy when it came to personnel decisions. Maybe Danny is still actively working behind the scenes, maybe not. But Vinny's role is about as transparent as it is going to get: he is, nominally at least, the one making the final call.

No I understand and well remember Vinny's promotion. And, I know we've been pretty good in being conservative in the FA market lately, and in the draft. But Vinny being in charge could be for real...and could be window dressing. Who the heck knows?

Just having the owner involved in personnel decisions (beyond setting boundries for expenses) kind of gives me the willies. The only owners I can think of who are as active as Snyder in player acquisition are Jerry Jones and Al Davis. Jeffrey Lurie in Philly, and Steve Biscotti in Baltimore, for example, are not involved with player evaluation.

[tcwest10]

I watched Ryan Clark send McGahee to the hospital on Sunday.
Cerrato let him walk.
I've watched Antonio Pierce now in NYG Blue for a few years now, and it still sickens me that Cerrato let him go, thinking he was a product of the system and would stay on the cheap.
I don't trust him, because since he came from DeBartolo's sinking ship...he's done nothing to keep ours afloat.
Maybe Joe Gibbs had lost his touch with the players, but he certainly had Snyder and Vinny in check...and the results of those two running wild brings back memories of the 2000 roster.

[PulpExposure]

I watched Ryan Clark send McGahee to the hospital on Sunday.
Cerrato let him walk.
I've watched Antonio Pierce now in NYG Blue for a few years now, and it still sickens me that Cerrato let him go, thinking he was a product of the system and would stay on the cheap.
I don't trust him, because since he came from DeBartolo's sinking ship...he's done nothing to keep ours afloat.
Maybe Joe Gibbs had lost his touch with the players, but he certainly had Snyder and Vinny in check...and the results of those two running wild brings back memories of the 2000 roster.

Note, TC, that both Clark and Pierce went under Gibbs' watch. You can't blame Cerrato for letting them walk (and for other poor moves in FA such as Lloyd and Archuleta), yet praise Gibbs for other things.

[Snout]

Why the continued Snyder/Cerrato bashing? Didn't anyone see the NFC Championship game? Did the uniforms of the teams playing in that game look familiar?

The fact is that the team we put on the field this year was good enough to go 3-0 against the two top teams in the NFC.

The team has the pieces it needs to succeed. Sure there are weaknesses, but 3-0 tells me that the weakenesses are not fatal.

[DEHog]

Why the continued Snyder/Cerrato bashing? Didn't anyone see the NFC Championship game? Did the uniforms of the teams playing in that game look familiar?

The fact is that the team we put on the field this year was good enough to go 3-0 against the two top teams in the NFC.

The team has the pieces it needs to succeed. Sure there are weaknesses, but 3-0 tells me that the weakenesses are not fatal.

I keep seeing people ues this logic and I don't get it...it really doesn't hold water...would you still be saying this if we were 3-13 and the three wins came against the Cards and Eagles??? Alot of Eagles fan here were teling me that they were going to kill the Cards and reminded me of the Thanksgiving Day game??
Also remember we lost tough one to the Rams ,Bengals and 9ers.

[Snout]

I keep seeing people ues this logic and I don't get it...it really doesn't hold water...would you still be saying this if we were 3-13 and the three wins came against the Cards and Eagles??? Alot of Eagles fan here were teling me that they were going to kill the Cards and reminded me of the Thanksgiving Day game??
Also remember we lost tough one to the Rams ,Bengals and 9ers.

If you are having trouble following the logic, then allow me explain it the way someone else explained it: The Redskins problem is that they play to the level of the competition. The beat the best teams in the NFC and they lose to some of the worst teams (and they barely beat the worst NFL team of all time). They win games they are supposed to lose and lose games they are supposed to win.

Now here is my point: That is not a front office problem. That is not a drafting problem. That is not a ownership problem. That is not a racketball problem. That is not a lack of talent problem. That is not a salary cap mismanagement problem. That is not a ticket price problem. That is not a lack of a real GM problem.

If anything, 3-0 proves that the owner and the GM have assembled enough talent to be successful. The problem is consistency, preparation, and mental discipline -- a problem for the coaches and players to solve, not the front office.

That is not to say that the front office cannot help. Sure we need more depth. Sure we would be better off with a more effective defensive line. Sure we would be better off with a QB who could make more plays. Sure we would be better off if our first and second round draft picks made a bigger impact.

My point is that people who say the only problem is the front office and the owner have no idea what they are talking about.

[SkinsFreak]

^^^Agreed.

[SkinsFreak]

I watched Ryan Clark send McGahee to the hospital on Sunday.
Cerrato let him walk.
I've watched Antonio Pierce now in NYG Blue for a few years now, and it still sickens me that Cerrato let him go, thinking he was a product of the system and would stay on the cheap.
I don't trust him, because since he came from DeBartolo's sinking ship...he's done nothing to keep ours afloat.
Maybe Joe Gibbs had lost his touch with the players, but he certainly had Snyder and Vinny in check...and the results of those two running wild brings back memories of the 2000 roster.

Note, TC, that both Clark and Pierce went under Gibbs' watch. You can't blame Cerrato for letting them walk (and for other poor moves in FA such as Lloyd and Archuleta), yet praise Gibbs for other things.

I agree, Pulp. I'd bet Williams had more to do with those guys being released then anyone.

But this kind of thing happens to EVERY team; Jets fans watched Moss come to DC and light it up, becoming one of the top tier threats in the league - Raiders fans watched Hall step in a get 3 picks in just a few games - Bronco fans have watched Portis be a league leader almost every year and a main staple and threat, while their offense has been through a dozen RB's or more since...etc. It happens to every team, it's just part of the game. Expecting every trade, release, acquisition or draft choice to completely pan out is fantasy and holds no reality in the aspects of the game in its entirety. It's simply part of the game and happens to every team.

But why focus on a very few that got away and ignore, or refuse to acknowledge, the longer list of draft choices and FA's that have been good for us?

[DEHog]

I keep seeing people ues this logic and I don't get it...it really doesn't hold water...would you still be saying this if we were 3-13 and the three wins came against the Cards and Eagles??? Alot of Eagles fan here were teling me that they were going to kill the Cards and reminded me of the Thanksgiving Day game??
Also remember we lost tough one to the Rams ,Bengals and 9ers.

If you are having trouble following the logic, then allow me explain it the way someone else explained it: The Redskins problem is that they play to the level of the competition. The beat the best teams in the NFC and they lose to some of the worst teams (and they barely beat the worst NFL team of all time). They win games they are supposed to lose and lose games they are supposed to win.

Now here is my point: That is not a front office problem. That is not a drafting problem. That is not a ownership problem. That is not a racketball problem. That is not a lack of talent problem. That is not a salary cap mismanagement problem. That is not a ticket price problem. That is not a lack of a real GM problem.

If anything, 3-0 proves that the owner and the GM have assembled enough talent to be successful. The problem is consistency, preparation, and mental discipline -- a problem for the coaches and players to solve, not the front office.

That is not to say that the front office cannot help. Sure we need more depth. Sure we would be better off with a more effective defensive line. Sure we would be better off with a QB who could make more plays. Sure we would be better off if our first and second round draft picks made a bigger impact.

My point is that people who say the only problem is the front office and the owner have no idea what they are talking about.

Sorry I just don't buy into your logic...Of course I'm not one who thinks we have a horrible team...I do think we are a 8-8 team. You can point to those three game if it makes you fell better...but I'n just trying to be real. We aslo lost to the Giants twice what do you make of that. I give you your point that is does speak to coaching when you play to the level of your opponent....Who hired the coach??

[KazooSkinsFan]

I watched Ryan Clark send McGahee to the hospital on Sunday.
Cerrato let him walk.
I've watched Antonio Pierce now in NYG Blue for a few years now, and it still sickens me that Cerrato let him go, thinking he was a product of the system and would stay on the cheap.
I don't trust him, because since he came from DeBartolo's sinking ship...he's done nothing to keep ours afloat.
Maybe Joe Gibbs had lost his touch with the players, but he certainly had Snyder and Vinny in check...and the results of those two running wild brings back memories of the 2000 roster.

You're right, the Redskins suck, we are stupid, our owners are stupid, our front office is stupid, the coaches are stupid, the players suck and when they don't suck they are stupid and the stupid front office lead by the stupid coaches stupidly let them go. You're onto something here, thanks for sharing.