The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

SkinsFreak wrote:I'm not sure I understand this love fest for Ryan Clark all of a sudden. He's been a decent contributor for Pitt in the tackling department, but only has 5 Int's in 7 years as a pro. Horton had 3 Int's in his rookie year alone. And if the discussion surrounding Clark resurfaced merely due to his hit on Willis McGahee, well I also remember a huge hit on Chad Johnson made by Kareem Moore.

Remember, we drafted Sean Taylor and LaRon Landry, so releasing Ryan Clark at the time was not a major loss. And if Taylor was still alive, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We now have Landry, Horton and Moore with the possibility of moving Springs to safety for us, so I'm not really missing Clark and I don't blame the team for releasing him at the time.

I was simply pointing out the Ryan Clark was missing from the list.

Yes we did have a discussing about him because of the way his contract was handle. He wanted 1.5 mil and Snyder told his agent good luck you'll never get that. Then gave AA 35 mil??

For the record we released Ryan before we drafted Laron we drafted Laron because AA didn’t work out.

I would also add that Champ Bailey took a beating on these boards for not wanting to be a Redskin…Ryan Clark wanted badly to stay here….I understand that’s not a reason to keep him…but it’s players like Ryan that the Redskins desperately need, he would have been a very serviceable backup at the least and was cheap…Snyder shells out a lot of money for his starting players as evidenced by our high cap number every year, but when one of our starters get hurt it exposes the fact that we don’t spend wisely on our second and third tier players like Clark. I have seen Ryan at the Redskins games on his bye week the past two seasons…he still has many friends here. I’m happy for him, everything worked out… he got more money than he was asking for from the Redskins and is now playing for a SB ring.

The defensive line and Offensive line have to be addressed. It should be obvious to any Skins fan who has been watching this team for the past Ten Years.

The good thing is that from what I have read, saw on tv, etc, this draft is deep at the line positions on defense and offense. That is great for us b/c this is where we need to get younger. Its a weak LB'r Class outside of the kids from USC and Ohio St. kid.

It would be really smart for us to trade that pick down for whatever we can get and pick up a few guys to fill holes. I have a feeling that someone from our starting 5 will not be back. Its either Kendall or Jansen. Not sure which and we need a young guy to step in.

One other thing to note. There are a lot of centers in this years draft that the experts feel that most can play Guard as well. So picking up a guy who can play multiple positions will be very helpful.

2006
Added
B. Lloyd
Archuleta
T. Collins
Duckett
*Doughty
*Montgomery
*Golston
*McIntosh

Lost
W. Harris
P. Ramsey
R. Clark

2007
Added
P. Kendall
F. Smoot
L. Fletcher
*L. Landry
*Blades

Lost
Duckett
Wynn
W. Holdman
Stoutmire
L. Marshall
Dockery

Cerrato named V.P. of Football Ops

2008
Added
Erasmus James
Schweigert
*C. Horton
*Tryon
*K. Moore
*Rhinehart
*Kelly
*Brennan
*D. Thomas
*F. Davis

Lost
T. Wade
V. Fox

Okay, I included Ryan Clark this time. Doesn't change much, in my mind. Basically, I think G. Williams sold the FO on the idea of Archuleta over Clark. I mean, if Williams had wanted to keep Clark, I'm sure the FO would have done so. Same thing for Archuleta. I find it hard to believe that the Fo went out and got Archuleta because they thought he would be great. Williams must have coveted him. Remember, in Williams first year he had unknown Matt Bowen blitzing from all over the place and likely thought Archuleta would do that even better. Then Clark goes to the Steelers. Well that had as much to do with his success as anything. You can plug in lots of safeties in to that defense and make them look good. If Clark had ended up in Detroit or Oakland the story would be much different. So, nothing against Clark, but you can only blame Cerrato but so much for that situation.

NO WAY!!!! Williams had Arch riding the bench like crazy. He played other guys like Stoutmire, etc instead of ARch. Have to say I totally disagree. Also we had Vernon Fox in there instead of Arch.

Wahoo McDaniels wrote:...and there's always the possibility that you were under the inference of a halluocengeneric drug when you made this post.

Speaking of being INFERENCED by hallucinogens...

SkinsFreak wrote:I'm not sure I understand this love fest for Ryan Clark all of a sudden. He's been a decent contributor for Pitt in the tackling department, but only has 5 Int's in 7 years as a pro. Horton had 3 Int's in his rookie year alone. And if the discussion surrounding Clark resurfaced merely due to his hit on Willis McGahee, well I also remember a huge hit on Chad Johnson made by Kareem Moore.

Remember, we drafted Sean Taylor and LaRon Landry, so releasing Ryan Clark at the time was not a major loss. And if Taylor was still alive, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We now have Landry, Horton and Moore with the possibility of moving Springs to safety for us, so I'm not really missing Clark and I don't blame the team for releasing him at the time.

The option at the time of his departure was Ryan Clark or an unknown FA... Ryan Clark had repeatedly demonstrated his heart and his leadership. He was largely responsible for the rapid maturation of Sean Taylor, and helped him to learn to take advantage of his remarkable talent. I was very ambivalent about losing him, and hated the lack of respect the got from Vinnie. He is a player. I'm very happy to see him getting some recognition.

I have always liked him as a player.

frankcal20 wrote:NO WAY!!!! Williams had Arch riding the bench like crazy. He played other guys like Stoutmire, etc instead of ARch. Have to say I totally disagree. Also we had Vernon Fox in there instead of Arch.

Ah revisionist history.

But his agent, Gary Wichard, said the coaches are making an example of his client and pointed to the repeated breakdowns that have continued with Archuleta sitting out.

"Adam has been made to be a scapegoat," Wichard said in a telephone interview after watching Sunday's loss on television. "It's been proven the last couple of games that it's certainly not just Adam. Gregg Williams and [safeties coach] Steve Jackson, they wanted Adam Archuleta and they recruited him to Washington because of how they had seen him play on film.

"They know what type of player he is, and [Chicago Bears Coach] Lovie Smith wanted to sign Adam in the worst way, and so did Gregg Williams. I don't know what's changed in all of that since March, but Gregg Williams was the person recruiting Adam in free agency, and Adam hasn't changed as a player since then."

Only once Arch played horribly did Gregg bench him. But Gregg pushed Snyder to sign the guy in the worst way.

Because...

From this rather damning article in 2006:

Williams, who'd been fired the previous year as the Bills' head coach, had a ton of adulation tossed his way, and his swagger at Redskin Park was unmatched. He liked to tell people that he'd only agreed to take the job if Snyder "didn't stick his nose" into personnel matters, and Snyder -- who wanted to win in the worst way -- had agreed. That gave Williams a feeling of invincibility, and considering the egg that the offense laid that year in comparison, he probably deserved to feel that way.

Apparently, Williams had full personnel control over the defense...

PulpExposure wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:NO WAY!!!! Williams had Arch riding the bench like crazy. He played other guys like Stoutmire, etc instead of ARch. Have to say I totally disagree. Also we had Vernon Fox in there instead of Arch.

Ah revisionist history.

But his agent, Gary Wichard, said the coaches are making an example of his client and pointed to the repeated breakdowns that have continued with Archuleta sitting out.

"Adam has been made to be a scapegoat," Wichard said in a telephone interview after watching Sunday's loss on television. "It's been proven the last couple of games that it's certainly not just Adam. Gregg Williams and [safeties coach] Steve Jackson, they wanted Adam Archuleta and they recruited him to Washington because of how they had seen him play on film.

"They know what type of player he is, and [Chicago Bears Coach] Lovie Smith wanted to sign Adam in the worst way, and so did Gregg Williams. I don't know what's changed in all of that since March, but Gregg Williams was the person recruiting Adam in free agency, and Adam hasn't changed as a player since then."

Only once Arch played horribly did Gregg bench him. But Gregg pushed Snyder to sign the guy in the worst way.

Because...

From this rather damning article in 2006:

Williams, who'd been fired the previous year as the Bills' head coach, had a ton of adulation tossed his way, and his swagger at Redskin Park was unmatched. He liked to tell people that he'd only agreed to take the job if Snyder "didn't stick his nose" into personnel matters, and Snyder -- who wanted to win in the worst way -- had agreed. That gave Williams a feeling of invincibility, and considering the egg that the offense laid that year in comparison, he probably deserved to feel that way.

Apparently, Williams had full personnel control over the defense...

Thank you.

Immediately after Gibbs was hired, Williams was the first person Gibbs went after. We all know Snyder loved Gibbs, and Gibbs wanted Williams. So I believe it's pretty clear that Gibbs and Williams were in control of personnel moves, including draft choices, free agents and player releases. Many still want to ignorantly blame Cerrato for everything, but I think Snyder thought so highly of Mr. HoF Redskin Joe Gibbs, that Danny gave Gibbs and Williams full control.

DEHog wrote:I have seen Ryan at the Redskins games on his bye week the past two seasons…he still has many friends here. I’m happy for him, everything worked out… he got more money than he was asking for from the Redskins and is now playing for a SB ring.

DE, I totally agree with you and Countertrey... I've always liked Clark and I'm not bashing him personally. I'm happy for him as well and wish him the best.

But I don't think his release can be blamed on the front office. I think it's been proven now that Williams wanted AA and didn't want Clark. In hindsight, it was not a wise move. But nobody owns a crystal ball that can predict the future and I'm just not one of those Monday morning GM's that criticizes others with hindsight after that fact. Anybody can do that... in every aspect of life. I believe Williams thought he knew everything and his word was law. Williams was wrong, blame him.

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:I have seen Ryan at the Redskins games on his bye week the past two seasons…he still has many friends here. I’m happy for him, everything worked out… he got more money than he was asking for from the Redskins and is now playing for a SB ring.

DE, I totally agree with you and Countertrey... I've always liked Clark and I'm not bashing him personally. I'm happy for him as well and wish him the best.

But I don't think his release can be blamed on the front office. I think it's been proven now that Williams wanted AA and didn't want Clark. In hindsight, it was not a wise move. But nobody owns a crystal ball that can predict the future and I'm just not one of those Monday morning GM's that criticizes others with hindsight after that fact. Anybody can do that... in every aspect of life. I believe Williams thought he knew everything and his word was law. Williams was wrong, blame him.

Again the point (for me anyway) is not about the players as much as it was about the $$$$. I'm not buying that Williams and Gibbs were the ones who said let's spend 35 mil on AA and pass on the 1.5 Ryan wants.
The money thrown at AA was insane...There were quotes from players who said even AA couldn't believe the $$$ he was given. I'm not going to bash the FO for signing players that the staff wants, but again I ask where is that person who determines value, someone who should have stepped in and said....AA isn't worth that much!!!
Sorry but for me that fall squarely with the FO

DEHog wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:I have seen Ryan at the Redskins games on his bye week the past two seasons…he still has many friends here. I’m happy for him, everything worked out… he got more money than he was asking for from the Redskins and is now playing for a SB ring.

DE, I totally agree with you and Countertrey... I've always liked Clark and I'm not bashing him personally. I'm happy for him as well and wish him the best.

But I don't think his release can be blamed on the front office. I think it's been proven now that Williams wanted AA and didn't want Clark. In hindsight, it was not a wise move. But nobody owns a crystal ball that can predict the future and I'm just not one of those Monday morning GM's that criticizes others with hindsight after that fact. Anybody can do that... in every aspect of life. I believe Williams thought he knew everything and his word was law. Williams was wrong, blame him.

Again the point (for me anyway) is not about the players as much as it was about the $$$$. I'm not buying that Williams and Gibbs were the ones who said let's spend 35 mil on AA and pass on the 1.5 Ryan wants.
The money thrown at AA was insane...There were quotes from players who said even AA couldn't believe the $$$ he was given. I'm not going to bash the FO for signing players that the staff wants, but again I ask where is that person who determines value, someone who should have stepped in and said....AA isn't worth that much!!!
Sorry but for me that fall squarely with the FO

And for me, it's only after the fact we can determine he wasn't worth it. And I agree, it was a lot of money. But remember, AA didn't actually receive $35 million, it was much less and we've discussed that amount previously. AA still has to shoulder much of the blame as well, in that he admitted publicly he was distracted by the money and his Playboy Bunny girlfriend and didn't commit or put forth full effort. Gibbs and Williams said they wanted a specific player and Snyder made it possible. You can't fault the guy for trying and you can't, as previously mentioned here, say the decisions must be left to the football people, and when it is, and doesn't work out, go back and blame the owner. Can't have it both ways.

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:I have seen Ryan at the Redskins games on his bye week the past two seasons…he still has many friends here. I’m happy for him, everything worked out… he got more money than he was asking for from the Redskins and is now playing for a SB ring.

DE, I totally agree with you and Countertrey... I've always liked Clark and I'm not bashing him personally. I'm happy for him as well and wish him the best.

But I don't think his release can be blamed on the front office. I think it's been proven now that Williams wanted AA and didn't want Clark. In hindsight, it was not a wise move. But nobody owns a crystal ball that can predict the future and I'm just not one of those Monday morning GM's that criticizes others with hindsight after that fact. Anybody can do that... in every aspect of life. I believe Williams thought he knew everything and his word was law. Williams was wrong, blame him.

Again the point (for me anyway) is not about the players as much as it was about the $$$$. I'm not buying that Williams and Gibbs were the ones who said let's spend 35 mil on AA and pass on the 1.5 Ryan wants.
The money thrown at AA was insane...There were quotes from players who said even AA couldn't believe the $$$ he was given. I'm not going to bash the FO for signing players that the staff wants, but again I ask where is that person who determines value, someone who should have stepped in and said....AA isn't worth that much!!!
Sorry but for me that fall squarely with the FO

And for me, it's only after the fact we can determine he wasn't worth it. And I agree, it was a lot of money. But remember, AA didn't actually receive $35 million, it was much less and we've discussed that amount previously. AA still has to shoulder much of the blame as well, in that he admitted publicly he was distracted by the money and his Playboy Bunny girlfriend and didn't commit or put forth full effort. Gibbs and Williams said they wanted a specific player and Snyder made it possible. You can't fault the guy for trying and you can't, as previously mentioned here, say the decisions must be left to the football people, and when it is, and doesn't work out, go back and blame the owner. Can't have it both ways.

Not only can I have it, if I was an owner I would demand it...my point is money has to be part of the equation. I know Snyder gets credit for being good with the cap...but I think it comes at the expense of that second and third tier palayer like a Ryan Clark. The big question is when you say "football people" who are you talking about?
Coaches, GM or the owner??

We have a similar situation brewing with Hall and Rodgers...How much are you willing to pay Hall..if it means cutting Rodgers? The great thing here is we got to see Hall for the vet min. He played well...so do you pay him and risk losing Los?

Gibbs and Williams said they wanted a specific player and Snyder made it possible. You can't fault the guy for trying and you can't, as previously mentioned here, say the decisions must be left to the football people, and when it is, and doesn't work out, go back and blame the owner. Can't have it both ways.

This is where the role of the GM becomes important. The GM is supposed to be the one that balances what the coaches want and what is good for the team. Very rarely in the NFL does a coach tell the owner who he wants and the owner just goes out and gets him. It didn't work like that during Gibbs' first tenure with the team and it shouldn't have worked that way during his second go with the Skins. There is a reason why coaches who also have had control over personnel matters have struggled.

CanesSkins26 wrote:This is where the role of the GM becomes important. The GM is supposed to be the one that balances what the coaches want and what is good for the team. Very rarely in the NFL does a coach tell the owner who he wants and the owner just goes out and gets him. It didn't work like that during Gibbs' first tenure with the team and it shouldn't have worked that way during his second go with the Skins. There is a reason why coaches who also have had control over personnel matters have struggled.

Um..actually it DID work that way in the first Gibbs tenure. Gibbs wanted Vets (keep, acquire) and Beathard wanted his draft picks to stay and play. Cooke almost always gave Gibbs his way.

DEHog wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:I have seen Ryan at the Redskins games on his bye week the past two seasons…he still has many friends here. I’m happy for him, everything worked out… he got more money than he was asking for from the Redskins and is now playing for a SB ring.

DE, I totally agree with you and Countertrey... I've always liked Clark and I'm not bashing him personally. I'm happy for him as well and wish him the best.

But I don't think his release can be blamed on the front office. I think it's been proven now that Williams wanted AA and didn't want Clark. In hindsight, it was not a wise move. But nobody owns a crystal ball that can predict the future and I'm just not one of those Monday morning GM's that criticizes others with hindsight after that fact. Anybody can do that... in every aspect of life. I believe Williams thought he knew everything and his word was law. Williams was wrong, blame him.

Again the point (for me anyway) is not about the players as much as it was about the $$$$. I'm not buying that Williams and Gibbs were the ones who said let's spend 35 mil on AA and pass on the 1.5 Ryan wants.
The money thrown at AA was insane...There were quotes from players who said even AA couldn't believe the $$$ he was given. I'm not going to bash the FO for signing players that the staff wants, but again I ask where is that person who determines value, someone who should have stepped in and said....AA isn't worth that much!!!
Sorry but for me that fall squarely with the FO

The other thing to take into account is the role of the player agent. He had two teams bidding over his client (Chicago being the other). The agent does most of the dealing, so it's no surprise that AA was surprised by the money he got because the negotiating was (most likely) done by his agent.

DEHog wrote:Not only can I have it, if I was an owner I would demand it...my point is money has to be part of the equation. I know Snyder gets credit for being good with the cap...but I think it comes at the expense of that second and third tier palayer like a Ryan Clark.

Of course money is part of the equation, and our in-house capologist, Eric Schaffer, has just as much, if not more, input into the financials of a potential roster move.

And since money IS part of the equation, the reason why many FA contracts are "back loaded" is so there isn't much money paid up front if said player doesn't pan out. Remember, no guaranteed contracts in the NFL. The reason why Schaffer and Snyder get credit for being good with the cap is directly related to the back-loaded design of the FA contracts, which other teams are now mimicking. That's why AA never received the $35 million that you keep alleging is the reason why players like Clark weren't re-signed or retained.

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:Not only can I have it, if I was an owner I would demand it...my point is money has to be part of the equation. I know Snyder gets credit for being good with the cap...but I think it comes at the expense of that second and third tier palayer like a Ryan Clark.

Of course money is part of the equation, and our in-house capologist, Eric Schaffer, has just as much, if not more, input into the financials of a potential roster move.

And since money IS part of the equation, the reason why many FA contracts are "back loaded" is so there isn't much money paid up front if said player doesn't pan out. Remember, no guaranteed contracts in the NFL. The reason why Schaffer and Snyder get credit for being good with the cap is directly related to the back-loaded design of the FA contracts, which other teams are now mimicking. That's why AA never received the $35 million that you keep alleging is the reason why players like Clark weren't re-signed or retained.

Yea I understand how Snyder and Co. work. AA also got a 5 mil signing bonus (with another 5.6 in guarantees which Snyder got the Bears to pick up…thank goodness) which is guaranteed. So it created about 4 mil in “dead money” when we traded him, while I don’t believe that was directly the reason Clark wasn’t retained I believe it played a part of it. We had to go out and sign an unknown S at a cheaper price. I do think that the Skins have started to do business better as evidence by our draft last year and the small amount of “dead money” it use to be quite big. I thought the JT signing was a step back in the wrong direction because of the two pick we gave them.