The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Chris Luva Luva wrote:What do injuries have to do with those Kelly and Thomas? Thomas hasn't been injured and neither has Davis. Kelly has barely cracked the lineup since being healthy and was benchhed last week and this week.

Doc Walker said something about the development of Kelly and Thomas last night that I thought made a lot of sense. Doc really believes that as both players were injured during training camp this year, it killed any development they could have. Doc was saying most 1st years learn the most during training camp, and very little during the regular season. Thomas should have developed more, but Kelly only got healthy when the season was well underway, so he hasn't been able to get any real reps with the offense. If true, this makes a lot of sense why the two of them are way behind where he should be.

No idea about Fred the Dumdumhead, though.

Your right, this is why this organization is mediocre and we might never get better. And defensive lineman don't always have stand out rookie years. Take Mario Williams, his rookie year was ok but now he is definitely one of the better DE in the league. Vinny's logic makes no sense. If you don't take a need then the team never improves. Like if we would've taken a DL or OL this past year in the draft the team would be much better instead of drafting Fred Davis, who I think is a good player, but we didn't need him and hes so far been a waste of a pick when at least a OL or DL would get playing time.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

prinzeofmoval wrote:If malcolm had 8 tds or if Thomas would've had a great year we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But they didn't... And we are having this discussion... Why? Because IT'S REALITY! We could have used 1/3 of those picks at a linemen position. Or maybe even the LB position which is thinning out quickly.

We're having this discussion because of the recent losses by the team and fans searching far and wide for a reason as to why they lost. I clearly see the reason as being, in large part, due to the failure of the players to execute on the field (see below). I believe you are trying to say that Vinny's failure to draft a d-lineman in the early rounds of the draft, THIS YEAR, is the reason why they lost. I disagree, in that I don't believe, for a second, that any one rookie d-lineman would have made the difference and I firmly believe the draft selections were the right ones.

Bad formula: Redskins' offense struggling in first quarter, defense in fourth

By Eric Edholm
Dec. 18, 2008

The Redskins have lost five of six games after a 6-2 start for a variety of reasons, but there are two clear trends that have hurt the team badly during this tough stretch. In the past four games (three losses and one narrow win), the team has been outscored 41-0 in the first quarter. In the only game they won, against the Seahawks, they trailed 3-0; in the other games since then they fell behind by counts of 10-0 to the Giants and 14-0 to both the Ravens and Bengals. On the flip side, the defense hasn’t finished well. It has allowed time-consuming drives at the ends of games in the losses to the Ravens, Cowboys and Bengals right when they needed a stop most. There is no one reason for the deficiencies on both sides of the ball, but the team clearly isn’t scheming out its first 15 plays on offense well, nor does it have the defensive depth — injuries have been a factor — to get key stops late.

Link

This goes back to what I've been saying about plenty of culpable negligence to go around, it's not just on one person. As I've said a gazillion times, I agree they've neglected the lines in years past, but I agree with THIS years draft, for all reasons previously expressed, and I don't think Vinny or Dan can be directly blamed for the recent losses. And no, Chris, Vinny isn't "my boy", so don't start with that ridicules crap either.

Cerrato's strategy is ridiculous and easy to bring down.

He says you must draft the best player available. Well then, if by some quirk in other teams selections the "best" player that ends up with you is a QB, should the team have drafted one also? Repeat that for three years and you have a disaster on the roster.

I don't understand his logic of "drafting the best player available" when your team has much bigger needs. I really don't.

Vinnie has no idea what's he talking about...thus our terrible drafts. Somebody tell the Cowboys you can't find linemen in the draft. Take 2005 for example, what if we had one year like this....the Cowboys got their entire defensive line (possibly the best DLine in Football next to the Vikings) all in one draft. Oh, and a couple of throw in pieces also (namely Marion Barber).

1 11 DeMarcus Ware LB
1 20 Marcus R. Spears DE
2 42 Kevin Burnett LB
4 109 Marion Barber RB
4 132 Chris L. Canty DE
6 208 Justin Beriault DB
6 209 Rob Petitti T
7 224 Jay Ratliff DE

Guys, the article that was posted containing the quotes from Vinny, that started this thread, he was talking about THIS years draft.

Let's take a look at that.

In the 1st round, there were a total of 15 offensive and defensive linemen selected; 5 DE's, 7 OT's, 2 DT's and 1 OG. Merling was selected by Miami with the first pick of the 2nd round. After that pick, the only defensive linemen left that were worthy of any consideration were Calais Campbell and Trever Laws, neither of which had high grades from the Skins or would've been considered better value than Thomas or Davis. So again, due to the run on linemen in the 1st round, there wasn't any linemen of value left to be had.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

prinzeofmoval wrote:If malcolm had 8 tds or if Thomas would've had a great year we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But they didn't... And we are having this discussion... Why? Because IT'S REALITY! We could have used 1/3 of those picks at a linemen position. Or maybe even the LB position which is thinning out quickly.

To draft a player to help the team in years to come or to build around is silly, I agree. however to be honest what is coach zorns point or does he just suck.

I don'y know.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:By Dan Steinberg of the Washington Post....

http://mobile.washingtonpost.com/detail.jsp?key=328072&rc=dc_sp&p=0

Here's the key point: Cerrato said drafting according to need can be a way to sink your team. "You can't just go take a need," was the exact quote. "The way that you can screw up your team is if you go draft a need, you're gonna get a bunch of guys at those positions but you're not gonna be happy with the results."

And as an example, he pointed to the poor rookie seasons of two defensive ends who some Skins fans wanted: Miami's Phillip Merling, and Arizona's Calais Campbell.

"I mean, it came down to Phillip Merling, people say that we maybe should have taken," Cerrato said. "He has seven tackles right now for Miami."

Damning. Except it's not even close to accurate.

When Cerrato said this, Merling actually had 23 tackles (17 solo) and a sack, according to NFL.com. For a defensive end who has started just two games, that's actually not too shabby.

By way of comparison, Jason Taylor, who's banking $8 million and cost the team two draft picks, had 22 tackles (15 solo) and 1 sack at the time Cerrato offered this explanation, although Taylor did get three tackles and another half-sack yesterday. Andre Carter, the team's most productive end, had 30 tackles (18 solo) and 3 sacks at the time Cerrato was knocking Merling's production.

What can you even say? This is why this franchise is entrenched in mediocrity but I can't wait to see people defend this.

After reading this article, I think Cerrato is an idiot. Granted you don't always draft for need, but you cannot totally ignore it either. As a Cincinnati fan I've seen it rarely, but it did work with Carson Palmer. Since then they have ignored the needs at both offensive and defensive lines, waiting until late in the draft to address them. Now both line are horrid, and their record reflects it.

Of course owner Mike Brown is a bumbling fool, but that's a whole other subject.

SkinsFreak wrote:Guys, the article that was posted containing the quotes from Vinny, that started this thread, he was talking about THIS years draft.

Let's take a look at that.

In the 1st round, there were a total of 15 offensive and defensive linemen selected; 5 DE's, 7 OT's, 2 DT's and 1 OG. Merling was selected by Miami with the first pick of the 2nd round. After that pick, the only defensive linemen left that were worthy of any consideration were Calais Campbell and Trever Laws, neither of which had high grades from the Skins or would've been considered better value than Thomas or Davis. So again, due to the run on linemen in the 1st round, there wasn't any linemen of value left to be had.

There you go again... attempting to inject logic and rationality into a thread trashing the FO. Why do you torture yourself? Are we going to have to do an intervention?

Here is the real reason there not drafting lineman, because Snyder said not to.

The real reason we didn't draft a lineman is because none were available at the time.

I can't wait until you all get amnesia next season when Thomas and Kelly are making big catches. By then you'll have forgotten all about Phillip Merling.

Skinsfan55 wrote:The real reason we didn't draft a lineman is because none were available at the time.

I can't wait until you all get amnesia next season when Thomas and Kelly are making big catches. By then you'll have forgotten all about Phillip Merling.

I hope your right..

John Manfreda wrote:Here is the real reason there not drafting lineman, because Snyder said not to.

Yes, I'm absolutely sure that's true....I also think I saw him on the grassy knoll, too!

PulpExposure wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:What do injuries have to do with those Kelly and Thomas? Thomas hasn't been injured and neither has Davis. Kelly has barely cracked the lineup since being healthy and was benchhed last week and this week.

Doc Walker said something about the development of Kelly and Thomas last night that I thought made a lot of sense. Doc really believes that as both players were injured during training camp this year, it killed any development they could have. Doc was saying most 1st years learn the most during training camp, and very little during the regular season. Thomas should have developed more, but Kelly only got healthy when the season was well underway, so he hasn't been able to get any real reps with the offense. If true, this makes a lot of sense why the two of them are way behind where he should be.

No idea about Fred the Dumdumhead, though.

That does make a lot of sense.

Some are pointing to Jackson and Royal as players we should have drafted because they're having better seasons. Maybe so, but they also play for teams that were desperate for WR's. They are also short receivers, and short receivers were not a need for this team. They needed big, tall and physical receivers, which Royal and Jackson are not.

Most here actually understand that receivers don't blossom in their first seasons, and there's plenty of evidence to support that.

On the year, Devin Thomas only has 14 catches for 103 yards. I know, not very impressive... yet. But let's take a quick look at some of the other highly touted receivers from this past draft, ones many around here were lobbying for...

James Hardy - 9 catches / 87 yards
Early Doucet - 8 catches / 50 yards
Limas Sweed - 6 catches / 64 yards
Andre Caldwell - 5 catches / 36 yards
Mario Manningham - 2 catches / 5 yards

Thomas has better numbers then all of those guys. So again, very few rookie receivers actually make any kind of an impact their rookie year.

SkinsFreak wrote:Most here actually understand that receivers don't blossom in their first seasons, and there's plenty of evidence to support that.

On the year, Devin Thomas only has 14 catches for 103 yards. I know, not very impressive... yet. But let's take a quick look at some of the other highly touted receivers from this past draft, ones many around here were lobbying for...

James Hardy - 9 catches / 87 yards
Early Doucet - 8 catches / 50 yards
Limas Sweed - 6 catches / 64 yards
Andre Caldwell - 5 catches / 36 yards
Mario Manningham - 2 catches / 5 yards

Thomas has better numbers then all of those guys. So again, very few rookie receivers actually make any kind of an impact their rookie year.

I completely agree, and I've been saying this for weeks. Here's some first seasons from star wideouts:

Chad Johnson- 28 REC, 329 YDS, 1 TD
Roddy White- 29 REC, 446 YDS, 3 TD
Brandon Marshall- 20 REC, 309 YDS, 2 TD
T.J. Houshmandzadeh- 21 REC, 228 YDS, 0 TD
Bernard Berrian- 15 REC, 225 YDS, 2 TD

That's just a sample and I didn't even include smaller receivers. Only bigger types.

Skinsfan55 wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:Most here actually understand that receivers don't blossom in their first seasons, and there's plenty of evidence to support that.

On the year, Devin Thomas only has 14 catches for 103 yards. I know, not very impressive... yet. But let's take a quick look at some of the other highly touted receivers from this past draft, ones many around here were lobbying for...

James Hardy - 9 catches / 87 yards
Early Doucet - 8 catches / 50 yards
Limas Sweed - 6 catches / 64 yards
Andre Caldwell - 5 catches / 36 yards
Mario Manningham - 2 catches / 5 yards

Thomas has better numbers then all of those guys. So again, very few rookie receivers actually make any kind of an impact their rookie year.

I completely agree, and I've been saying this for weeks. Here's some first seasons from star wideouts:

Chad Johnson- 28 REC, 329 YDS, 1 TD
Roddy White- 29 REC, 446 YDS, 3 TD
Brandon Marshall- 20 REC, 309 YDS, 2 TD
T.J. Houshmandzadeh- 21 REC, 228 YDS, 0 TD
Bernard Berrian- 15 REC, 225 YDS, 2 TD

That's just a sample and I didn't even include smaller receivers. Only bigger types.

You forgot a couple:

Rod Gardner - 46 REC, 741 YD, 0 TD
Michael Westbrook - 34 REC, 522 YD, 1 TD
Taylor Jacobs - 3 REC, 37 YD, 1 TD

Granted, Taylor Jacobs sucked from the git-go, but I believe he was also an injury problem as well from the start, much like Kelly.

Given the track record of Snyderatto, I think it's more likely that we're looking at more of the latter than the former group. At least until it's proven otherwise.

On a side note, in the NFL, what GM, even for chronically bad teams, gets 8 years of failure and continued renewal of their contract? Fish rots from the head down, and this sure smells.

old-timer wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:Most here actually understand that receivers don't blossom in their first seasons, and there's plenty of evidence to support that.

On the year, Devin Thomas only has 14 catches for 103 yards. I know, not very impressive... yet. But let's take a quick look at some of the other highly touted receivers from this past draft, ones many around here were lobbying for...

James Hardy - 9 catches / 87 yards
Early Doucet - 8 catches / 50 yards
Limas Sweed - 6 catches / 64 yards
Andre Caldwell - 5 catches / 36 yards
Mario Manningham - 2 catches / 5 yards

Thomas has better numbers then all of those guys. So again, very few rookie receivers actually make any kind of an impact their rookie year.

I completely agree, and I've been saying this for weeks. Here's some first seasons from star wideouts:

Chad Johnson- 28 REC, 329 YDS, 1 TD
Roddy White- 29 REC, 446 YDS, 3 TD
Brandon Marshall- 20 REC, 309 YDS, 2 TD
T.J. Houshmandzadeh- 21 REC, 228 YDS, 0 TD
Bernard Berrian- 15 REC, 225 YDS, 2 TD

That's just a sample and I didn't even include smaller receivers. Only bigger types.

You forgot a couple:

Rod Gardner - 46 REC, 741 YD, 0 TD
Michael Westbrook - 34 REC, 522 YD, 1 TD
Taylor Jacobs - 3 REC, 37 YD, 1 TD

Granted, Taylor Jacobs sucked from the git-go, but I believe he was also an injury problem as well from the start, much like Kelly.

Given the track record of Snyderatto, I think it's more likely that we're looking at more of the latter than the former group. At least until it's proven otherwise.

On a side note, in the NFL, what GM, even for chronically bad teams, gets 8 years of failure and continued renewal of their contract? Fish rots from the head down, and this sure smells.

Snyder isn't responsible for coaching players. and every analyst in football thought the drafting of Thomas and Kelly in the 2nd round were good draft choices. So not sure how you wrap all that into predicting both WR's will be disappointments and that it will all be Snyders fault. Maybe you should just start rooting for another team if you're that down on the Skins. Why torture yourself.

Snyder isn't responsible for coaching players.

Not yet, anyway. And not that we know of. He's been attending player workouts, though. I think he even attended Merling's workout, if I'm not mistaken.

and every analyst in football thought the drafting of Thomas and Kelly in the 2nd round were good draft choices.

If only that meant something on the field. That and 4 bucks gets you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

So not sure how you wrap all that into predicting both WR's will be disappointments and that it will all be Snyders fault.

Everything that happens with this team is his fault. He's the owner, remember? If it's not his fault, whose is it? Mine?

Maybe you should just start rooting for another team if you're that down on the Skins. Why torture yourself.

That's a load of crap. Our record for the last 10 years sucks, and that's a fact. Snyder sucks, Cerrato sucks, and one day they'll both be gone and the Redskins will still be here. Just because I criticize Snyder and Cerrato doesn't mean I'm not a Redskins fan. I'm just not into cheerleading.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not predicting or hoping for failure of Kelly and Thomas. I' hope they're great. I just don't see how people can defend Snyderatto's latest unproductive draft on the basis that 'most receivers take at least one year to blossom' and Thomas and Kelly have only been worthless for one season so far.

After 10 years of failure, it's a little ridiculous to be defending Snyderatto on the basis that there decisions might work out at some indefinite point in the future, or that the failure of the team is the players' fault (as SkinsFreak has posited). I know we can't fire Snyder, but that doesn't mean we have to like him. At least in Dallas, when the team fails, they face the problem. I've read two columns today calling for Jerry Jones' head, and he's done MUCH better than Snyderatto. You don't have to be a mindless cheerleader to be a Redskins fan, either.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote: But did we NEED to draft a TE at that time? No, it was not really a need.

Again, you're using hindsight to your advantage.

Hindsight? Who's using it? I'm not. If you would have asked me then, I would have told you NO. A TE at that selection was the furthest thing from my mind.

the coach is the diffrence and the players that he has are to his liking,

old-timer wrote:
Rod Gardner - 46 REC, 741 YD, 0 TD
Michael Westbrook - 34 REC, 522 YD, 1 TD
Taylor Jacobs - 3 REC, 37 YD, 1 TD

Granted, Taylor Jacobs sucked from the git-go, but I believe he was also an injury problem as well from the start, much like Kelly.

Given the track record of Snyderatto, I think it's more likely that we're looking at more of the latter than the former group. At least until it's proven otherwise.

On a side note, in the NFL, what GM, even for chronically bad teams, gets 8 years of failure and continued renewal of their contract? Fish rots from the head down, and this sure smells.

-Michael Westbrook was drafted by Charley Casserley in 1995. Dan Snyder did not even own the team. (Also, Westbrook was never the star people thought he would be, but once we finally got a QB who could throw like Brad Johnson he had a career year.)

-Rod Gardner was drafted by Marty Schottenheimer, Vinny Cerrato was not part of the organization. (Also, Gardner was never a star, but his career was in constant upheval. Tony Banks, Shane Matthews, Danny Wuerffel, Patrick Ramsey, Tim Hasselbeck, Mark Brunell...)

-Taylor Jacobs was drafted by his former coach Steve Spurrier. He also never panned out but he also played for two coaches and with multiple quarterbacks.

Cerrato's track record with Wide Receivers is actually pretty good. J.J. Stokes, Terrell Owens, and Tai Streets were selections he helped make for the 49ers.

redskins14ru wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote: But did we NEED to draft a TE at that time? No, it was not really a need.

Again, you're using hindsight to your advantage.

Hindsight? Who's using it? I'm not. If you would have asked me then, I would have told you NO. A TE at that selection was the furthest thing from my mind.

the coach is the diffrent and the players that he has are to his liking,

I mean, I love the two TE set as much as anyone, but I didn't get the selection of Fred Davis either. He's kind of slow, nice hands, but can he block?

He may turn out to be a nice red zone guy (didn't the 1991 Redskins have like half a dozen tight ends on the roster?) but it seems like we should have done something else with that pick.

Skinsfan55 wrote:

redskins14ru wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote: But did we NEED to draft a TE at that time? No, it was not really a need.

Again, you're using hindsight to your advantage.

Hindsight? Who's using it? I'm not. If you would have asked me then, I would have told you NO. A TE at that selection was the furthest thing from my mind.

the coach is the diffrent and the players that he has are to his liking,

I mean, I love the two TE set as much as anyone, but I didn't get the selection of Fred Davis either. He's kind of slow, nice hands, but can he block?

He may turn out to be a nice red zone guy (didn't the 1991 Redskins have like half a dozen tight ends on the roster?) but it seems like we should have done something else with that pick.

I think the biggest issue with our offense is the lack of a red zone threat to compliment ey. Zorn and the Fo knew, going into the draft, that Santana and ARE's contracts were structured in such a way to make them too expensive to cut or trade over the next 2 seasons. So, once all the respectable DL's were gone in the 1st round, they grabbed three big bodies to help the red zone offense. At least one of these guys will become a good Redskin player. I'm hoping all three do. We may very well be applauding these draft choices over 2009 and 10.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:By Dan Steinberg of the Washington Post....

http://mobile.washingtonpost.com/detail.jsp?key=328072&rc=dc_sp&p=0

Here's the key point: Cerrato said drafting according to need can be a way to sink your team. "You can't just go take a need," was the exact quote. "The way that you can screw up your team is if you go draft a need, you're gonna get a bunch of guys at those positions but you're not gonna be happy with the results."

And as an example, he pointed to the poor rookie seasons of two defensive ends who some Skins fans wanted: Miami's Phillip Merling, and Arizona's Calais Campbell.

"I mean, it came down to Phillip Merling, people say that we maybe should have taken," Cerrato said. "He has seven tackles right now for Miami."

Damning. Except it's not even close to accurate.

When Cerrato said this, Merling actually had 23 tackles (17 solo) and a sack, according to NFL.com. For a defensive end who has started just two games, that's actually not too shabby.

By way of comparison, Jason Taylor, who's banking $8 million and cost the team two draft picks, had 22 tackles (15 solo) and 1 sack at the time Cerrato offered this explanation, although Taylor did get three tackles and another half-sack yesterday. Andre Carter, the team's most productive end, had 30 tackles (18 solo) and 3 sacks at the time Cerrato was knocking Merling's production.

What can you even say? This is why this franchise is entrenched in mediocrity but I can't wait to see people defend this.

No defense here.
Cerrato is an idiot and partially responsibe for where we are today.
Zorn inherited the mess and it will take several years to fix.
Thanks Vinnie!
Now go play handball with Snyder.

Skinsfan55 wrote:

old-timer wrote:
Rod Gardner - 46 REC, 741 YD, 0 TD
Michael Westbrook - 34 REC, 522 YD, 1 TD
Taylor Jacobs - 3 REC, 37 YD, 1 TD

Granted, Taylor Jacobs sucked from the git-go, but I believe he was also an injury problem as well from the start, much like Kelly.

Given the track record of Snyderatto, I think it's more likely that we're looking at more of the latter than the former group. At least until it's proven otherwise.

On a side note, in the NFL, what GM, even for chronically bad teams, gets 8 years of failure and continued renewal of their contract? Fish rots from the head down, and this sure smells.

-Michael Westbrook was drafted by Charley Casserley in 1995. Dan Snyder did not even own the team. (Also, Westbrook was never the star people thought he would be, but once we finally got a QB who could throw like Brad Johnson he had a career year.)

-Rod Gardner was drafted by Marty Schottenheimer, Vinny Cerrato was not part of the organization. (Also, Gardner was never a star, but his career was in constant upheval. Tony Banks, Shane Matthews, Danny Wuerffel, Patrick Ramsey, Tim Hasselbeck, Mark Brunell...)

-Taylor Jacobs was drafted by his former coach Steve Spurrier. He also never panned out but he also played for two coaches and with multiple quarterbacks.

Cerrato's track record with Wide Receivers is actually pretty good. J.J. Stokes, Terrell Owens, and Tai Streets were selections he helped make for the 49ers.

I think you missed the point. You said that good WR's often have poor first seasons. My rejoinder was that bad ones do too. And I don't see any indication whatsoever that would make us think that Kelly and Thomas are NFL-caliber at this point, nor, given Cerrato's checkered record, that we have much reason to expect that will change. And I never said all those WR's were drafted by Cerrato anyway, thanks for the history lesson, although I didn't need it.

In reviewing Cerrato's record, I don't think his problem, necessarily, has been the draft, although those have been mediocre overall. His main problem has been free agency. Beathard only had a couple of really good drafts, overall substantially better than Cerrato (and everyone else before and after him), but where he really struck gold was free agency. That's been the difference I think. But the point is, has Cerrato made some good picks? Sure. And lots of bad ones too. Add them all together, and couple them with an amateur like Snyder picking a different coach every other year, and it explains our mediocrity.

Coaching is at least half (probably more) responsible for turning drafted players and free agents into good contributors. We often see the same teams find gems in the draft. It's more about the coaches making the most of their talents than it is about some magic in the draft itself. I doubt seriously Tom Brady would have amounted to a star if drafted by Detroit or Oakland. I also doubt Heyer would be a decent NFL player (or even employed) if he hadn't been coached by Buges. So, we need to develop from within instead of simply pointing at Snyder and Cerrato for every failure. I do agree that Snyder needs to value draft picks above free agents. He and Cerrato did that last year, for the first time. I give Cerrato credit for that positive change. But then they threw away a 2nd rounder on Taylor and a 4th on something (I forget). So, it remains to be seen.