The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

chiefhog44 wrote:

BurgundyandGoldfaith wrote:I haven't seen the tape CP says Zorn is lying about but Zorn hasn't said anything outrageous. He said Ladell had practice time and the hot hand. I was watching the game, that was what I saw. Portis handed Ed Reed a TD(granted he never fumbles) but he doesn't seem to want to take any responsibility for the loss, he just wants to pin it on Zorn for holding him out. What were Betts' stats? I thought they were good. Am I losing it or didn't this issue come up between the two earlier this season, about practicing?

I agree but he's clearly tired of Clinton not practicing.

http://redskins.com/gen/index.jsp It's under Coach Zorn 12-8 at minute 12:40

Skinsfan55 wrote:Clinton Portis needs to shut the hell up and play football.

Jim Zorn is the head coach and if he thinks Betts gives us a better shot at winning given the circumstances than it's his decision and Portis should shut his mouth.

It was just an absolutely stupid move to go on radio with this dirty laundry and he ought to be ashamed.

Be a man, don't just cry like a baby when things don't go your way.

Skinsfan55 wrote:Clinton Portis needs to shut the hell up and play football.

Jim Zorn is the head coach and if he thinks Betts gives us a better shot at winning given the circumstances than it's his decision and Portis should shut his mouth.

It was just an absolutely stupid move to go on radio with this dirty laundry and he ought to be ashamed.

Be a man, don't just cry like a baby when things don't go your way.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:Clinton Portis needs to shut the hell up and play football.

Jim Zorn is the head coach and if he thinks Betts gives us a better shot at winning given the circumstances than it's his decision and Portis should shut his mouth.

It was just an absolutely stupid move to go on radio with this dirty laundry and he ought to be ashamed.

Be a man, don't just cry like a baby when things don't go your way.

Did you say the same things when Zorn did the same exact things? Did you? If not, then you're post isn't valid.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:

BurgundyandGoldfaith wrote:I haven't seen the tape CP says Zorn is lying about but Zorn hasn't said anything outrageous. He said Ladell had practice time and the hot hand. I was watching the game, that was what I saw. Portis handed Ed Reed a TD(granted he never fumbles) but he doesn't seem to want to take any responsibility for the loss, he just wants to pin it on Zorn for holding him out. What were Betts' stats? I thought they were good. Am I losing it or didn't this issue come up between the two earlier this season, about practicing?

I agree but he's clearly tired of Clinton not practicing.

http://redskins.com/gen/index.jsp It's under Coach Zorn 12-8 at minute 12:40

He had CP on par to get 370+ carries. Maybe if he didn't abuse his back, he'd be healthy.

aswas71788 wrote:Does anyone remember that Portis' fumble was caused by Rabach? Go back and look at the play. Rabach came in late and pushed Portis and the the two defensive guys forward probably trying to gain some yardage. Look at the play really close if you have a recording. Portis was OK and holding th ball until Rabach. I am not going to hold that fumble against Portis but Rabach.

Bob 0119 wrote:

aswas71788 wrote:Does anyone remember that Portis' fumble was caused by Rabach? Go back and look at the play. Rabach came in late and pushed Portis and the the two defensive guys forward probably trying to gain some yardage. Look at the play really close if you have a recording. Portis was OK and holding th ball until Rabach. I am not going to hold that fumble against Portis but Rabach.

That fumble was a crap call by the refs and you know it. They knew it. The ball wasn't "coming loose" his arm was moving with the ball. The ball didn't "come loose" until after Portis' back hit the ground.

The Refs may have well said "he wasn't down because his knees never touched the ground," at least that would have been an explaination based on reality.

DEHog wrote:

Bob 0119 wrote:

aswas71788 wrote:Does anyone remember that Portis' fumble was caused by Rabach? Go back and look at the play. Rabach came in late and pushed Portis and the the two defensive guys forward probably trying to gain some yardage. Look at the play really close if you have a recording. Portis was OK and holding th ball until Rabach. I am not going to hold that fumble against Portis but Rabach.

That fumble was a crap call by the refs and you know it. They knew it. The ball wasn't "coming loose" his arm was moving with the ball. The ball didn't "come loose" until after Portis' back hit the ground.

The Refs may have well said "he wasn't down because his knees never touched the ground," at least that would have been an explaination based on reality.

I thought it was a fumble...you have to have full control of the ball when you hit the ground and CP did not. Remember the ruling on the field was a fumble and I have to give the refs kudos for allowing the play to play out...I hate when they blow it dead and you can't review.

As for the fumble being cause by Casey...that's crazy!! You can't fault Casey for going after a would-be tackler!!

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Too much is being made of that fumble. It's a part of the game and unavoidable. This is only an issue because of how putrid the passing offense is. Our team should be able to bail Clinton out of a jam like that. A bad start shouldn't end our game.

Bob 0119 wrote:CP vs. JZ

JZ vs. CP

Whatever. Zorn didn't throw CP under any bus. He was asked why CP didn't play in the second half. He answered.

CP said he wasn't told why he was benched. Did he not think to ask? Of course he was told why. He may not have agreed, but it's Zorn's call to make.

As for CP throwing Zorn under the bus, that's crap also. CP was frustrated. He was asked; and he answered in his frustration.

Neither player or coach went out of their way to call the other out, they simple spoke their minds.

These aren't little girls that are going to be texting each other by the lockers with "OMG! I totally can't believe you said that!" They're grown men, and I'm sure have thicker skins than most of the people on this board. They'll figure it out.

As for Portis. He should be frustrated. He's having a stellar season, and his team's losing games. Aren't we all frustrated? He felt he was singled out for the team losing so he popped off.

Zorn seemed to understand that, and I'm sure they'll talk it out this week in practice.

Untwist your panties ladies, it's not the end of the world.

/rant

DEHog wrote:I agree and it didn' the the Skins got to 17-10 and the D couldn't get a stop when it needed it most!

Bob 0119 wrote:CP vs. JZ

JZ vs. CP

Whatever. Zorn didn't throw CP under any bus. He was asked why CP didn't play in the second half. He answered.

CP said he wasn't told why he was benched. Did he not think to ask? Of course he was told why. He may not have agreed, but it's Zorn's call to make.

As for CP throwing Zorn under the bus, that's crap also. CP was frustrated. He was asked; and he answered in his frustration.

Neither player or coach went out of their way to call the other out, they simple spoke their minds.

These aren't little girls that are going to be texting each other by the lockers with "OMG! I totally can't believe you said that!" They're grown men, and I'm sure have thicker skins than most of the people on this board. They'll figure it out.

As for Portis. He should be frustrated. He's having a stellar season, and his team's losing games. Aren't we all frustrated? He felt he was singled out for the team losing so he popped off.

Zorn seemed to understand that, and I'm sure they'll talk it out this week in practice.

Untwist your panties ladies, it's not the end of the world.

/rant

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

DEHog wrote:I agree and it didn' the the Skins got to 17-10 and the D couldn't get a stop when it needed it most!

Oh please, it shouldn't have taken those lame ducks 4 quarters to score a TD. And let's not act like they marched down the field and scored. They got a lucky turnover on a BS call from the refs, they had a few penalties and lucked themselves into the endzone...

By the time all that happened, the defense had been on the field all game long. They were tired and beat up. Its inexcusable for them to take that long to score one darned TD. You can't keep going 3&out and expect the defense to do anything in the 4th quarter.

Lets be honest here, this defense plays brilliant for not having a defensive line that's worth 2 pennies.

DEHog wrote:Everyone knew it was going to be that type of game, the player said so all week long, so you choose to give the defense a pass for not being able to play four quarters...that's your choice. I'm not blaming the D I'm just stating a fact we were within a TD with 12 min to play and couldn't get a stop....Wonder if the Steelers felt the same way in their game against the Boys

Truth, Consequences
By Thomas Boswell
Wednesday, December 10, 2008; Page E01

For NFL coaches, honesty is the worst policy. Their rule of thumb, almost to a man, is: Try everything else first. The truth is always a Hail Mary.
But every rule has its exception. Meet Jim Zorn. From the day he arrived to coach the Redskins, he's said what's on his mind, in detail, with footnotes. He loves analysis and nuance. He's a perfectionist, even when it comes to his own opinions. Somewhere, he went wrong. Maybe a blitzing linebacker broke the fib button on his lips long ago.

Even about his best player, superstar running back Clinton Portis, Zorn has always told the truth, the whole truth and, maybe, quite a bit more of the truth than circumstances required.

Now, he's paying the price. Or, maybe not. Maybe he's in the process of proving that candor can work.

Either way, we're going to get an answer in the last three weeks of this season about the blunt-spoken approach to dealing with egocentric 1,500-yard rushers. Preliminary results from the blast sight look catastrophic.

By now, you've heard the casualty report from Portis's eruption yesterday on John Thompson's radio show. How often does the transcript of a star ripping his coach run 800 words? How do I cut the legs out from under thee, dear coach, let me count the ways? But there's background here.

Zorn has, inadvertently or to show his authority, been getting Portis's goat since training camp. Instead of simply praising Portis for staying in town for offseason workouts, Zorn pointed out that Portis had an "extrinsic motivation" for his nobility; he was negotiating a new contract with $16 million up front. So the workouts helped Portis get ready for a superior season, but they also made C.P. a whole lot richer. Was that last point too much information?
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In October, when Portis took himself out of a game in Detroit with an equipment problem, then put himself back in -- something Joe Gibbs allowed the last four years -- Zorn blew up at Portis on the sideline in a face-to-face yelling match. Rookie coach vs. eventual 10,000-yard rusher? Or former pretty-good NFL quarterback who never got, or expected, special treatment vs. all-NFL diva?

Then, two weeks ago, Portis mentioned, self-servingly but accurately, that he'd almost been knocked unconscious in a game and had "blood running down both my arms and my legs." A day later, Zorn quipped, "Was it gushing?"

The last cut was the deepest. With the Redskins down 17-0 in the second half in Baltimore on Sunday night, Zorn benched Portis for the rest of the game. Afterward, most coaches, if not all, would cover the back of their star. Okay, they'd lie. They'd invent a minor injury. Or they'd point out the 17-point deficit dictated that Ledell Betts, the best pass catcher out of the backfield, was needed.

Instead, Zorn came dangerously close to his view of the truth. Portis had missed lots of practices and wasn't as prepared to identify and pick up blitzes, or run precise and often-practiced pass routes as Betts. So the coach benched his star.

Zorn didn't use exactly those words. But that's what Portis, and his teammates, heard. When the team watched films on Monday, Zorn didn't seek out Portis for a kiss-and-make-up chat as many coaches would have. So, by yesterday, the fuse reached the ego dynamite. The various bits and pieces of coach and player are still coming back to earth.

But what no one in this town has seen is the best Redskins player undermine a rookie head coach from top to bottom. To do it with the team in a 1-4 tailspin, and barely on the edge of playoff contention, is double damage.
Zorn didn't ask for Portis, he inherited him from Gibbs. Zorn didn't ask for a flamboyant prima donna who pops off about his offensive line's play or wears outrageous postgame outfits to celebrate himself. But that's what he got. The job is to coach 'em, not change 'em.

Gibbs knew exactly how to coach Portis. The template, over four years, including two Portis-led trips to the playoffs, was there for Zorn to copy or ignore. He tore it up.

Gibbs praised Portis in public because he deserved it and because, being insecure, Portis needed it. Gibbs stroked him regularly. A man who wears gold shoes on the field and gives himself exotic nicknames craves attention.

As for practice, Gibbs praised Portis when he came and emphasized that nobody accused him of goldbricking when he didn't. Is that really what Gibbs thought? Close enough for NFL coaching.

Above all, Gibbs grasped that, if you ever have to take Portis to the woodshed, you better do it in private. You don't yell at him on the sideline for the world to see. You don't make light of his bleeding or discuss his contract. If you bench him with John Madden in the booth, you better seek him out for a chat, pronto. Players earn respect, each in their own amount. C.P. has earned a ton.
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Gibbs knew that Portis is a player who ticks. On the field, he explodes for scores. Off it, he can blow up directly on you. If Gibbs, the Hall of Famer, knew Portis's potential for combustion, yet worked around him just as he always did with John Riggins, shouldn't Zorn have sensed the danger?

There's a world of difference between a coach who never tells a lie (Gibbs) and a coach who gives himself the prerogative to tell the truth (Zorn). The first illustrates character. The second borders on being foolhardy.

Ever since he arrived, Zorn has obsessed, as he should, about installing his West Coast offense, adapting his scheme to Gibbs's old personnel and micro-managing the attack like an offensive coordinator. That's fine. But limited.

The powerful lesson of both Gibbs tenures -- one as a great coach, the other as a merely good one -- was that coaching is about dealing with people more than anything else. Motivating them, understanding them deeply, melding them and, in many cases, accommodating their quirks and needs.

Long ago, Walter Lippmann wrote, "The genius of a good leader is to leave behind him a situation which common sense, without the grace of genius, can deal with successfully."

When he left, Gibbs thought he had met that standard, especially in the unified character of the Redskins' locker room that he had carefully built. Now that room is in danger of splintering.

A little more common sense, and a little less self-indulgent honesty, might have prevented it.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

DEHog wrote:Everyone knew it was going to be that type of game, the player said so all week long, so you choose to give the defense a pass for not being able to play four quarters...that's your choice. I'm not blaming the D I'm just stating a fact we were within a TD with 12 min to play and couldn't get a stop....Wonder if the Steelers felt the same way in their game against the Boys

I don't care what the Steelers can do or can't do, we aren't them. This defense has been the same since 2004. Except for one year, if our offense could put up at least 21 points, we'd win a majority of our games.

And you're right that I give them a pass. Any game where we don't score more than one measily TD, they get a pass from me. I give them a pass cus they're freaking exhausted.

And we were within one TD, big deal. What do you think was going to happen? Do you honestly think we were going to march down the field and score? Do you? I mean, yeah anything is possible. I'm sure leprechauns and unicorns COULD be real....

Chris Luva Luva wrote:And we were within one TD, big deal. What do you think was going to happen? Do you honestly think we were going to march down the field and score? Do you? I mean, yeah anything is possible. I'm sure leprechauns and unicorns COULD be real....

USAFSkinFan wrote:Portis is supposed to be a team leader... would he be happy now if the team followed his lead and everybody started calling out the coach? That's not going to happen, so you end up with some players backing Portis and some backing the coach, and a divided locker room... I understand his frustration, but this is at least the second time he's done this, it makes it look like he's more worried about his stats, and it just doesn't help the team... winning cures everything though so lets hope for 3 in a row...