The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

RayNAustin wrote:Memory brothers and sisters, that is what we must summon in answering these difficult questions, memory. We have walked this path before. Last year, on the heels of a 4 game losing streak due in large measure to an impotent offense unable to score points, we found ourselves in the same situation with 3 minutes left in the first half of the Chicago game, staring at a probable 5th loss in a row with zero points on the board and an offense that was headed toward a shutout at home, with the season on the line.

And it's your memory that's faulty here. As I posted once before:

JSPB22 wrote:Whenever your argument gets weak you always bring this up. But your basic premise is not backed up by the facts. During that four game losing streak, Campbell did not play poorly, as you would have us believe. Here's how those four games actually went:

PHI 33 @ WAS 25 J. Campbell 23/34 215 YDS 3 TD 0 INT
Sean Taylor goes down with an injury and the subsequent defensive collapse allows the Eagles to come back.

WAS 23 @ DAL 28 J. Campbell 33/54 348 YDS 2 TD 1 INT
Without Sean Taylor, Terrell Owens runs rampant and scores 4 TDs on the Skins. Jason's one INT ends a late comeback drive.

WAS 13 @ TB 19 J. Campbell 30/49 301 YDS 1 TD 2 INT
Jason throws two picks against a tough TB defense on the road, when the ground game is ineffective. His second INT ends another late comeback drive.

BUF 17 @ WAS 16 J. Campbell 21/37 216 YDS 0 TD 1 INT
The Skins play a few days following Sean Taylor's murder. Coach Gibbs calls consecutive TOs to move the winning FG 15 yards closer.

And in the following 4 games:

CHI 16 @ WAS 24 J. Campbell 10/16 100 YDS 0 TD 0 INT T. Collins 15/20 224 YDS 2 TD 0 INT
Campbell goes down and is replaced by Collins. Great defensive performance keeps Bears down.

WAS 22 @ NYG 10 T. Collins 8/25 166 YDS 0 TD 0 INT
Windy night at the Meadowlands makes for less that stunning QB numbers.

WAS 32 @ MIN 21 T. Collins 22/29 254 YDS 2 TD 0 INT
Clinton Portis rushes for one TD and throws for another.

DAL 6 @ WAS 27 T. Collins 22/31 244 YDS 1 TD 0 INT
With Dallas having already clinched home field advantage in the NFC, they play their starters for two plus quarters trying for personal records, but abandon that pursuit when the game gets out of reach. Collins gets a 4th quarter TD to Moss on a WR screen that goes for 42 yards, against the Dallas scrubs.

And in the playoff game:

WAS 14 @ SEA 35 T. Collins 29/50 266 YDS 2 TD 2 INT
After the TD by Mix on the kick-off was disallowed and the Redskins failed to score from the Seahawks 14, the momentum swing kills the Redskins' hopes of a comeback. Marcus Trufant's 78 yard INT return for a TD seals the deal.

So you can dispense with the revisionist history, and stop letting your personal dislike of Campbell cloud your posts. It's totally transparent to those of us that actually watch the games, and it's really getting tiresome.

http://thehogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=424040

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Zorn needs to call himself out for putting certain WR's in the game.

lol... I agree.

I think, in part, that's due to a couple of factors. I believe Zorn is "old-school" and wants these rookies to earn their stripes, as I've said before. I also believe Zorn didn't want to come in here, as a rookie head coach, and step all over the veterans toes by starting rookies over the veterans that have been here for a while and are are/were considered "core Redskins", like Thrash for example.

I just think Zorn was not wanting to stir the pot up too much and didn't want to piss any of the veterans off when he came in. Remember, his first challenge coming in here as a rookie head head was to earn the players trust and respect, all while getting them to buy into the system and what he and the coaches want to do. I do predict, however, things will change as we go along, it has to, it's part of the evolution.

And that may even apply to JC as well. JC was Gibbs guy, not Zorn's. Zorn had to give JC the keys to the offense. But Colt was Zorn's selection, so if JC continues to struggle, Zorn may look to Colt in the future. Either way, I think we are good at QB. Whether Colt or JC is starting, I think we are good for a few years. I'm not considering Collins because I believe he is a stop-gap and won't be here for long. I'm looking long term at our QB situation and I think we'll be fine.

Really, bench JC?

That's just not right, very ungood.

You guys have a little bit of faith, sheeesh.

SkinsFreak wrote:
Whether Colt or JC is starting, I think we are good for a few years.

I agree 100% with that. I'd like to see both stay for at least another two years.

TeeterSalad wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:
Whether Colt or JC is starting, I think we are good for a few years.

I agree 100% with that. I'd like to see both stay for at least another two years.

Yep.

Here's a thought... for whatever it's worth. (probably nothing...)

Offer JC a modest contract extension now while he knows he's currently struggling and not yet to that elite status. If they were to release JC, I guarantee there would be more than a dozen teams lined up to gain his services. JC is worth keeping, even if he has to battle with Colt next season for the starting job. You could most likely save some money by signing JC now.

We just drafted Colt, so we have him locked up for several years. Getting JC to sign now, at a reasonable rate that won't break the bank, would give us decent depth at the QB position for several years at hopefully a good price. If JC were to light it up for the remainder of the season, his price tag would rise accordingly.

I believe JC should remain the starter for the rest of this season, and going into next season. This allows JC ample time to find himself and learn this offense. This also allows Colt to put in his time. JC should start next season. If for whatever reason, JC continues to struggle, I'm definitely not opposed to giving Colt a shot at that point.

That said... just to stir the pot a bit...

I see something in Colt that JC doesn't possess. Colt has a charisma about him that seems to inspire and ignite the players around him, kinda like Romo does with the Pukes. They suck and are flat when Romo is out, but play very inspired football when Romo returns. Like Rome, Colt has that certain something about him.

This characteristic in Colt was evident in preseason when Colt was playing, granted it was with the 3rd and 4th stringers. But this charisma was also evident in the few games I watched Colt play at Hawaii. The players just seemed to be more energetic and inspired when Colt was playing. JC is a good leader, but he has a dry personality and is very even-keeled. Colt brings a certain excitement to the game and it appears to rub off on his teammates.

I still believe JC should be the starter, but he should know there's a guy in waiting that could take over his spot.

SkinsFreak wrote:

TeeterSalad wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:
Whether Colt or JC is starting, I think we are good for a few years.

I agree 100% with that. I'd like to see both stay for at least another two years.

I see something in Colt that JC doesn't possess. Colt has a charisma about him that seems to inspire and ignite the players around him, kinda like Romo does with the Pukes. They suck and are flat when Romo is out, but play very inspired football when Romo returns. Like Rome, Colt has that certain something about him.

This characteristic in Colt was evident in preseason when Colt was playing, granted it was with the 3rd and 4th stringers. But this charisma was also evident in the few games I watched Colt play at Hawaii. The players just seemed to be more energetic and inspired when Colt was playing. JC is a good leader, but he has a dry personality and is very even-keeled. Colt brings a certain excitement to the game and it appears to rub off on his teammates.

I still believe JC should be the starter, but he should know there's a guy in waiting that could take over his spot.

I agree. In JC's 3 years as QB, I believe he has displayed what he can do as a QB. Quite frankly, I don't think he has what it takes to win SBs. I would like to see a transition from JC to Colt next year (unless, of course, JC magically turns things around).

I do not believe it is happenstance that JC performs well against poor defenses and plays poor against good defenses. JC has not had a solid game against a solid defense all year.

SkinsFreak wrote:That said... just to stir the pot a bit...

I see something in Colt that JC doesn't possess. Colt has a charisma about him that seems to inspire and ignite the players around him, kinda like Romo does with the Pukes. They suck and are flat when Romo is out, but play very inspired football when Romo returns. Like Rome, Colt has that certain something about him.

This characteristic in Colt was evident in preseason when Colt was playing, granted it was with the 3rd and 4th stringers. But this charisma was also evident in the few games I watched Colt play at Hawaii. The players just seemed to be more energetic and inspired when Colt was playing. JC is a good leader, but he has a dry personality and is very even-keeled. Colt brings a certain excitement to the game and it appears to rub off on his teammates.

I still believe JC should be the starter, but he should know there's a guy in waiting that could take over his spot.

I'll buy that.

SkinsFreak wrote:This characteristic in Colt was evident in preseason when Colt was playing, granted it was with the 3rd and 4th stringers.

I think that kid is going to be good. Jason had things that Ramsey lacked, pocket awarness, a mental clock, talent ( )... Things you can't teach or learn. I think Colt has a few more things in him that JC doesn't have. He has confidence that Jason doesn't have and that gun slinger personality that will make or break him.

But whats the difference really?

You have Jason on one hand that's ultra conservative... He might only have 1 interception for the season but only threw for 7 TD's .

Then you have a potential slinger/slanger (hopefully more slinging than slanging) in Colt. He may throw 12 picks but may have 21 TD's...

Chris Luva Luva wrote:You have Jason on one hand that's ultra conservative... He might only have 1 interception for the season but only threw for 7 TD's .

Then you have a potential slinger/slanger (hopefully more slinging than slanging) in Colt. He may throw 12 picks but may have 21 TD's...

I'll take the second scenario over the first anyday. Points win games.

I can't put all of the blame on Campbell but he is certainly part of the problem. Campbell, much like Ramsey doesn't appear to have any touch on the ball. He doesn't appear to have the type of throwing mechanics to throw a rainbow and lead a receiver by 20 feet. The majority of the throws he tries to make are laser beams.

The receivers don't get a pass. They're professionals and they should be able to catch a ball thrown in their vicinity at any velocity. But it just makes me think about last year and what the O looked like when Collins took over. I realize that D linemen are coached to throw their hands up and bat the ball at the l.o.s. if they don't get there in time but wow does Campbell get a ton of balls batted. Again, low trajectory, high velocity... laser beams. Having a big arm is great and everything but I think a big arm should be used to get you out of trouble and not what you consistently rely on.

I'm sure this a lot to do with not knowing the offense and I'm sure it has a lot to do with making late reads. But Campbell isn't even good at throwing a slant. The one good pass I remember him throwing this year when that play was called was the seal the deal pass on 4th down against N.O. I see this play called at least 3 or 4 times a game every week and it never works. If this route is a staple of the offense and they're going to use it consistently, I would think you should be able to consistently complete the pass. It's funny because you can watch Rodgers throw this pass and Jennings, Driver or whoever will take it for 15 to 20 yards and sometimes take it to the house. The ball is always out in front of them and they're catching it in stride. When was the last time we watched a fade route work?

Campbell can throw the deep out, which is thought to be one of the hardest throws to make but can't seem to grasp some of the easier throws. Campbell CAN make a lot of throws but it doesn't look like he can make the throws that I watch other teams complete with ease all the time. Very frustrating.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

I think that kid is going to be good. Jason had things that Ramsey lacked, pocket awarness, a mental clock......



His mental clock must be a little off, he holds the ball 2 long.

SKINS#1 wrote:Chris Luva Luva wrote:

I think that kid is going to be good. Jason had things that Ramsey lacked, pocket awarness, a mental clock......



His mental clock must be a little off, he holds the ball 2 long.

I think that his mental clock is solar powered. Sometimes when he's getting pressured too often, the defensive linemen block the sun and its ability to power his mental clock. So at times the battery is low in the clock and it cuts off.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

SKINS#1 wrote:Chris Luva Luva wrote:

I think that kid is going to be good. Jason had things that Ramsey lacked, pocket awarness, a mental clock......



His mental clock must be a little off, he holds the ball 2 long.

I think that his mental clock is solar powered. Sometimes when he's getting pressured too often, the defensive linemen block the sun and its ability to power his mental clock. So at times the battery is low in the clock and it cuts off.

If it's solar powered, the offensive line lives on Pluto

I still believe that JC should start until the end of the year, and possibly beyond... but I will admit that Colt has sort of a "rock star" vibe going about him. He emits sort of a "cocky confidence" when he's interviewed that's a little reminiscent of Joe Theismman.

Of course, whether that "cocky confidence" results in "on field competence" is yet to be seen. But I do believe we'll find out sooner or later.

JSPB22 wrote:Whenever your argument gets weak you always bring this up. But your basic premise is not backed up by the facts. During that four game losing streak, Campbell did not play poorly, as you would have us believe. Here's how those four games actually went:

PHI 33 @ WAS 25 J. Campbell 23/34 215 YDS 3 TD 0 INT
Sean Taylor goes down with an injury and the subsequent defensive collapse allows the Eagles to come back.

Why be dishonest? Why cherry pick the stats to insinuate Jason "Joe Montana" Campbell played heroically and the defense lost the game? That's NOT WHAT HAPPENED. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED: In the 4th Q we had the lead 22-20, and a 1st and goal at the Philly 7, and a golden opportunity to ice the game. 8 darned plays later (aided by a fresh set of downs for Philly holding) we kick a FG from the 3 yard line to make the score 25-20 instead of scoring a TD and giving us a 2 score lead at 29-20.

Then, Philly scored on the next series to take a 1 point lead at 26-25 (*instead of still leading, we're behind because of our inept offense that couldn't score a TD with 8 attempts from the philly 7 yard line on the previous drive). Of course that's not Campbell's fault, after all, he's just the QB, right? Yeah, right.

Then, our next drive Campbell FUMBLES and Philly recovers on OUR 10 YARD LINE, and ICES the game with a TD and a 33-25 lead. THAT"S WHAT HAPPENED. But that was the o-lines fault, right? After all, if they protected him, he wouldn't have been sacked, and if he hadn't been sacked he wouldn't have fumbled. So yeah, yeah, it wasn't Jason's fault.

JSPB22 wrote:WAS 23 @ DAL 28 J. Campbell 33/54 348 YDS 2 TD 1 INT
Without Sean Taylor, Terrell Owens runs rampant and scores 4 TDs on the Skins. Jason's one INT ends a late comeback drive.

One of the few good games Campbell has played as a Redskin, he finishes with a horrendous Pick on our go ahead, and likely winning drive at the end of the game. 2nd week in a row, Redskins hopes of winning results in 2 Campbell turn overs, and 2 losses to our rival division opponents.

JSPB22 wrote:WAS 13 @ TB 19 J. Campbell 30/49 301 YDS 1 TD 2 INT
Jason throws two picks against a tough TB defense on the road, when the ground game is ineffective. His second INT ends another late comeback drive.

Redskin offense failed to score 14 points ( sound familiar ? ) and goes 0-3 in redzone. Campbell throws 2 picks, and fumbles inside the Redskin 20 that leads to points for TB. Montana-like performance indeed. The real deal is that the Redskins dominated the game statistically (artificially pumping JC's stats) but couldn't seal the deal in the redzone, which is classic, trademark Jason Campbell led offense. That's what actually happened.

JSPB22 wrote:BUF 17 @ WAS 16 J. Campbell 21/37 216 YDS 0 TD 1 INT
The Skins play a few days following Sean Taylor's murder. Coach Gibbs calls consecutive TOs to move the winning FG 15 yards closer.

Another great performance by Jason Campbell. He is sacked in the end zone for a safety in the 2nd Q. In the third Q he throws a pick, and fumbles on consecutive possessions, and overall the Redskins went 1-4 in the redzone again, and just 1-2 in goal to go situations. (For those counting, that's 1-7 in the redzone in consecutive weeks).

The Redskins should have had a 20 point lead by the time that Buf FG won the game. And this is AT HOME in a must win situation against an inferior team. Buffalo limped into Washington after barely beating the win less Dolphins 13-10 in week 10, and then being blown out by NE 56-10, and Jac 36-14. in weeks 11 & 12.

And you have the Gaul to call this pathetic display at QB GOOD? Talk about revisionist history?????

JSPB22 wrote:And in the following 4 games:

CHI 16 @ WAS 24 J. Campbell 10/16 100 YDS 0 TD 0 INT T. Collins 15/20 224 YDS 2 TD 0 INT
Campbell goes down and is replaced by Collins. Great defensive performance keeps Bears down.

HAHAHAHAHA what a load !!!! We were being shut down like a whorehouse in the Bible Belt by the great 5-8 Bears until Campbell was injured. Collins comes in and immediately leads a TD drive to close the first half and opens the 2nd half with another TD drive. He seals the deal with another TD drive in the 4th Q.

First 27 minutes, Campbell, 0 points.....last 33 minutes, Collins 24 points. And that was with the same terrible o-line and same short receivers and same coaches calling the plays.....all of the elements that the Jason Campbell fan club says prevented Jason's greatness from blossoming ALL YEAR LONG.

The rest, anyone can look at Collins stats for the following three games, all wins, and all scoring double the points in each game.

JSPB22 wrote:So you can dispense with the revisionist history, and stop letting your personal dislike of Campbell cloud your posts. It's totally transparent to those of us that actually watch the games, and it's really getting tiresome.

MY REVISIONIST HISTORY ???? What's getting tiresome is having to correct all of your purposeful distortions that you hope no one picks up on. Now let's talk about what you conveniently left out:

What's missing in the discussion (other than facts from you) is that this offense went 8 games (half a season) without a single TD pass to a WR. What's also missing is that between fumbles and int's, Campbell had twice as many TO's as TDs, and it's plain as day that the Redskins would not have made the playoffs had Campbell not been injured.

But, according to you, Campbell was having a great year. NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. Campbell did last year EXACTLY what he is doing THIS YEAR.....he somehow finds a way to put up decent yards statistically while failing to score points.....something that is kinda important if you want to win games.

Same ole same old. Nothing different. It's Campbell's one TRADEMARK.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

SKINS#1 wrote:Chris Luva Luva wrote:

I think that kid is going to be good. Jason had things that Ramsey lacked, pocket awarness, a mental clock......



His mental clock must be a little off, he holds the ball 2 long.

I think that his mental clock is solar powered. Sometimes when he's getting pressured too often, the defensive linemen block the sun and its ability to power his mental clock. So at times the battery is low in the clock and it cuts off.

That explains our play in the night games.

RayNAustin wrote:But, according to you, Campbell was having a great year.

Same ole snoozer. Show me one post, from ANY poster, where they said Campbell had a "great" year.

SkinsFreak wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:But, according to you, Campbell was having a great year.

Same ole snoozer. Show me one post, from ANY poster, where they said Campbell had a "great" year.

SF, don't you understand? I said Campbell did not play as poorly as Ray says he did during that 4-game losing streak last year (and Collins didn't play as great as he claims either). That is the exact same thing as saying Campbell is Joe Montana, and should be enshrined in Canton now, even though he is still playing.

The issue is that many of you claim that Jason Campbell is not the problem....everything else is....but not Campbell.

But....you'all with the man crush on Campbell are beginning to lose members of the club. Why? Because even though it's a tremendous ability possessed by the human being, self delusion and rationalization can only continue for so long.

Sooner or later, everyone's head will eventually be forced to acknowledge the ton of bricks falling.

RayNAustin wrote:The issue is that many of you claim that Jason Campbell is not the problem....everything else is....but not Campbell.

But....you'all with the man crush on Campbell are beginning to lose members of the club. Why? Because even though it's a tremendous ability possessed by the human being, self delusion and rationalization can only continue for so long.

Sooner or later, everyone's head will eventually be forced to acknowledge the ton of bricks falling.

I actually think most people here think Campbell is part of the problem, but not the whole problem. Campbell could throw the ball more accurately, and there are definitely times he holds the ball too much, or misreads the defense.

However, the line is passblocking very poorly; there's a revolving door at RT (Renaldo Wynn beat Jansen for a sack on Sunday! RENALDO WYNN!). The receivers are often not getting open, and very often at critical times they're dropping passes that are thrown to their hands (Thrash and Kelly last week, Seller's critical drop that would have been a TD against Dallas).

No QB can play well if their line doesn't pass block and the receivers consistently drop passes.

As you can tell from my Avatar, I have been a JC fan for the last couple years. I am disappointed he has not proven himself. The Redskins need to find a QB soon.

IMO, we play Collins starting next Sunday and if the Redskins losses continue (no playoff) we go with Colt to get him some game time with the starters. He needs to be ready by the start of next season.

RayNAustin wrote:The issue is that many of you claim that Jason Campbell is not the problem....everything else is....but not Campbell.

But....you'all with the man crush on Campbell are beginning to lose members of the club. Why? Because even though it's a tremendous ability possessed by the human being, self delusion and rationalization can only continue for so long.

Sooner or later, everyone's head will eventually be forced to acknowledge the ton of bricks falling.

Same ole hyperbole, too.

Play Campbell. He's the QB. He's getting better. Ramsey never has. Collins was a last-chance that worked. Brennan is a kid who impressed fans during pre-season.

Zorn has seen a lot of football, and a lot of QBs. I trust his judgement, just as I trusted Joe Gibbs. Zorn did not suddenly fall on his head and lose his brains a month ago. Gibbs lost nothing during his retirement.

This is football. Quality eventually wins out. Zorn looks pretty good, though not yet Vince Lombardi. Should we expect that?

No, don't change the QB. Get out and cheer for the Redskins.

I made a prediction before the season started.

I said that in year two of Colt Brennans career he would be starting.
If there is anyone I would like to see get a chance it would be Brennan.

I still would like to see JC finish this year, but if a switch happens I want Colt Brennan.

welch wrote:Play Campbell. He's the QB. He's getting better. Ramsey never has. Collins was a last-chance that worked. Brennan is a kid who impressed fans during pre-season.

Zorn has seen a lot of football, and a lot of QBs. I trust his judgement, just as I trusted Joe Gibbs. Zorn did not suddenly fall on his head and lose his brains a month ago. Gibbs lost nothing during his retirement.

This is football. Quality eventually wins out. Zorn looks pretty good, though not yet Vince Lombardi. Should we expect that?

No, don't change the QB. Get out and cheer for the Redskins.