Jason Taylor is a BUST

[VetSkinsFan]

In the offseason we have to look at DE.

We've needed to look at the dline for a few years now and yet we constantly ignore the position during the draft.

I'd rather have a tackle than an end. We have serviceable ends, but it's the tackle position we're lacking elite talent in the most.

[KazooSkinsFan]

I look forward to the late season push when JT starts making big plays and many people in this thread are forced to equivocate and backtrack.

Had we just signed him this week, this statement would be reasonable

Had you posted you knew the guy was going to have two injuries BEFORE you posted the trade sucked you would have been reasonable. Wrong, but reasonable. It still looks to be a good trade. We're 6-2 and he is going to be back and a major force in the late season and playoffs. We could go a long way this year. When you have opportunities in the NFL, you take them. If you want guarantees, buy a CD.

What a joy it must be to be around people who after so many years of struggling aging teams and the latest fad coaches have built a team with a good core of youth to build on, quality vets to count on, a new coach already doing well and STILL prefer to spend their time running down their team.

[KazooSkinsFan]

In the offseason we have to look at DE.

We've needed to look at the dline for a few years now and yet we constantly ignore the position during the draft.

I'd rather have a tackle than an end. We have serviceable ends, but it's the tackle position we're lacking elite talent in the most.

That was my first thought too, but I think this is a case where we go with the better player on DL. Personally now I'm more concerned about the againg on the OL. At least on the DL, AC, Golston and Montgomery are young and Griffin and JT aren't done yet. We REALLY need some up and coming youth on the OL.

[Deadskins]

Thanks, CaneSkins26, you beat me to the punch. A couple of other points. As for who said that he would be a bust, I was referring to those on the board (myself included), who didn't understand the logic behind the trade except he was available for a steep price Snyder was willing to pay. This is a message board, there are no credible people, just fans with access to a computer and an opinion. I didn't think I had to provide source material by quoting the holy football trinity of John Madden, Peter King and Dr. Z to make a statement.

As for what I would change to accommodate Taylor... the answer is nothing. The defense is playing great as a whole Fletcher, McIntosh and Rogers have been amazing all year. But, JT has been ineffective. I would accommodate him by not playing him. D. Evans has been more than capable of doing everything that JT has and more. If he's hurt, sit him and wait for him to get better. If it really is the calf or the knee or whatever then we'll have to wait and see if he can get himself in some sort of condition to contribute.

Why are we playing a guy who only at 60% (his words). I'm sick of watching the same thing every snap. Speed rush off the end, The Tackle hits him in the chest and he drops back and gets his hands up. The 2nd string tackle of the Lions absolutely destroyed him. At least Erasmus drew a holding penalty on him due to the pressure he got.

As for my comment on Groves over Taylor...... As with Carter, its not how many tackles or sacks you get, it's the impact you have on the game. For instance, Andre Carter, I think, is having a good year, as is Griffin, Golston and Montgomery. Carter's stats don't back it up but he's consistently creating havoc in the backfield. The same thing for Groves. Watching the game, Groves was getting consistent pressure on the Browns...something JT couldn't do. And BTW, we wouldn't have had to move up in the draft to get him...we were already there. All we would have had to do is not pick a receiver who most teams had decided not to draft due to lingering knee concerns.

As a side note, the frustration with this move also has something to do with the Skins drafts. They never make sense and we never put ourselves in position for long term success. Always one and two year quick fixes with trades for 34 year olds.

Here's a quick comparison.... the Skins and the Giants. You tell me who's draft department is doing their job. We marvel at the Skins getting Chris Horton in the 7th Round. The Giants seem to have a great draft every year. That's how you win Super Bowls. Besides the 2006 draft where we were able to get some talent in the late rounds (and of course Horton and HB), we have been unable to locate contributors in the 4th round and on.... mainly 'cause we throw 'em away for aging former superstars.

Giants Draft 2003-2008
2008
1 Kenny Phillips DB Miami (FL)
2 Terrell Thomas USC
3 Mario Manningham WR Michigan
4 Bryan Kehl LB BYU
5 Jonathan Goff LB Vanderbilt
6 Andre Woodson QB Kentucky
6 Robert Henderson DE Southern Miss

2007
1 Aaron Ross DB Texas
2 Steve Smith WR USC
3 Jay Alford DT Penn State
4 Zak DeOssie LB Brown
5 Kevin Boss TE West. Oregon
6 Adam Koets T Oregon State
7 Michael Johnson Arizona
7 Ahmad Bradshaw RB Marshall

2006
1 32 Mathias Kiwanuka DE Boston College
2 44 Sinorice Moss WR Miami (FL)
3 96 Gerris Wilkinson LB Georgia Tech
4 124 Barry Cofield DT Northwestern
4 129 Guy Whimper DE East Carolina
5 158 Charlie Peprah DB Alabama
7 232 Gerrick McPhearson DB Maryland

2005
2 43 Corey Webster DB LSU
3 74 Justin Tuck DE Notre Dame
4 110 Brandon Jacobs RB Southern Illinois
6 186 Eric Moore DE Florida State

2004
1 4 Philip Rivers QB North Carolina State
2 34 Chris Snee G Boston College
4 97 Reggie Torbor LB Auburn
5 136 Gibril Wilson DB Tennessee
6 168 Jamaar Taylor WR Texas A&M
7 203 Drew Strojny T Duke
7 253 Isaac Hilton DE Hampton

2003
1 25 William Joseph DT Miami (FL)
2 56 Osi Umenyiora DE Troy State
3 91 Visanthe Shiancoe TE Morgan State
4 123 Roderick Babers DB Texas
5 160 David Diehl G Illinois
6 199 Willie Ponder WR Southeast Missouri State
6 207 Frank Walker DB Tuskegee
6 David Tyree WR Syracuse
7 Charles Drake DB Michigan
7 249 Wayne Lucier Colorado

Skins Draft 2003-2008
2008
2 34 Devin Thomas WR Michigan State
2 48 Fred Davis TE USC
2 51 Malcolm Kelly WR Oklahoma
3 96 Chad Rinehart T Northern Iowa
4 124 Justin Tryon DB Arizona State
6 168 Durant Brooks P Georgia Tech
6 180 Kareem Moore DB Nicholls State
6 186 Colt Brennan QB Hawaii
7 242 Rob Jackson DE Kansas State
7 249 Chris Horton DB UCLA

2007
1 6 LaRon Landry DB LSU
5 143 Dallas Sartz LB USC
6 179 H.B. Blades LB Pittsburgh
6 205 Jordan Palmer QB Texas-El Paso
7 216 Tyler Ecker TE Michigan

2006
2 35 Rocky McIntosh LB Miami (FL)
5 153 Anthony Montgomery NT Minnesota
6 173 Reed Doughty DB Northern Colorado
6 196 Kedric Golston DT Georgia
7 230 Kili Lefotu G Arizona
7 250 Kevin Simon LB Tennessee

2005
1 9 Carlos Rogers DB Auburn
1 25 Jason Campbell QB Auburn
4 120 Manuel White RB UCLA
5 154 Robert McCune LB Louisville
6 183 Jared Newberry LB Stanford
7 222 Nehemiah Broughton FB The Citadel

2004
1 5 Sean Taylor DB Miami (FL)
3 81 Chris ey TE Utah State
5 151 Mark Wilson TE California
6 180 Jim Molinaro T Notre Dame

2003
2 44 Taylor Jacobs WR Florida
3 81 Derrick Dockery G Texas
7 232 Gibran Hamdan QB Indiana

Overall, I'd say we had the better drafts.

Really? I counted 17 starter quality players by the giants compared to 13 by us. However, we did have fewer picks. So maybe it evens out.

But look at the quality of those "starter quality" players. Sean Taylor alone makes up for about four of their players, and ey is another couple. In the long run I think Campbell will prove to be better than Eli (Yes I know they drafted Rivers, but they immediately traded him, and several future picks, for Eli). I still say we had the better drafts.

[BnGhog]

I was talking to a friend of mine, who is a gay shark fan the other day.

I was just making conversation stating that JT hasn't done much for us this year. He got all huffy and said "Well, he has to have a good team around him. If he don't have good players around him, it really make it hard for him to make plays."

OMG!!!!!!!!!

He pissed me off!

[Chris Luva Luva]

I was talking to a friend of mine, who is a gay shark fan the other day.

I was just making conversation stating that JT hasn't done much for us this year. He got all huffy and said "Well, he has to have a good team around him. If he don't have good players around him, it really make it hard for him to make plays."

OMG!!!!!!!!!

He pissed me off!

Well, there's some truth to his statement... There's no one reason why JT hasn't been lighting it up. It's a mix of scheme, injury, surrounding talent and playing out of position. It is true that our DT's are mediocre pass rushers, even moreso when Griffin isn't playing. If you have enough talent on the line where they can't focus on any one player, then yeah, it'll make individuals shine.

[BnGhog]

True. I only got pissed cause he made it sound like "its because the skins suck".

And the fins didn't last year?

[markshark84]

I look forward to the late season push when JT starts making big plays and many people in this thread are forced to equivocate and backtrack.

Had we just signed him this week, this statement would be reasonable

We're 6-2 and he is going to be back and a major force in the late season and playoffs.

Not sure where you are getting your information. During his time in DC, he has not shown anything that would cause an individual to come to this conclusion. A major force? He has 8 tackles this season.

Trust me, I understand that you are blindly loyal to the skins, but it is not being negative or putting a team down to admit when a trade goes wrong. We couldn't have predicted the injuries (although it should have been a consideration due to his age and his statements regarding retirement), but that is the way it goes. And I apologize if I am upset that we gave up 2 draft picks for a DE that has almost zero production this year. I am not putting down the skins. I am pointing out the obvious.

[BnGhog]

If Taylor Is a Bust...


That must mean Malcolm Kelly is a bust too.


Damn we wasted a draft pick!

[Irn-Bru]

Trust me, I understand that you are blindly loyal to the skins, but it is not being negative or putting a team down to admit when a trade goes wrong.

Trust me, I understand that it's easy to jump to conclusions before reasonable judgment allows us to, but it is not being blindly loyal to the team point out that it's too early for arm-chair critics to say.

[Irn-Bru]

If Taylor Is a Bust...


That must mean Malcolm Kelly is a bust too.


Damn we wasted a draft pick!

Sadly, there are some who are actually using this reasoning.

[markshark84]

If Taylor Is a Bust...


That must mean Malcolm Kelly is a bust too.


Damn we wasted a draft pick!

Actually I find it quite difficult and fairly misleading to compare a 34 year old, 12 year veteran, defensive lineman with a rookie wide receiver who has played only one game in his career. If you are being sarcastic (which is the only logical explanation), then I have no idea why you made the post since the comparison is straight up dumb.

Regardless, most receivers generally do not perform very well in their rookie years --- or at the least, they have mildly productive seasons. I in no way believe that Kelly is a bust - yet. It can be noted, though, that one of the major reasons he dropped to the second round was that he is injury-prone. It is also no secret that he does not like to play hurt.

Kelly's best days are ahead of him; quite the opposite for Taylor. Can anyone please tell me what JT has done to warrant the trade (besides the notion that he is going to magically beast out at the end of the season -- which is total speculation and has no weight whatsoever)? I have yet to see one fact. All I have done is pointed out that 25% of JT's redskin life has passed and we have recieved 8 tackles in return.

Could JT beast out by the end of the season --- sure. But would you bet your mortgage on it?

[Deadskins]

No, I wouldn't bet my mortgage on it, but if healthy, there is no reason to believe he would not revert to the form he has displayed his entire career, including last season when he was part of the league's worst team. What would be surprising is that his game would magically fall off so dramatically in one season's time, as so many are claiming here. The man was injured in the pre-season, and has not been totally healthy since.

[BnGhog]

"He's a bust, what has he done?"

Not much but he's been hurt.

"He's a bust, what's the point in trading for a guy who has done nothing?"

He's been durable his entire career an only has 117 sacks (most of all active players in the NFL)

"But that was with Miami he hasn't done nothing for us"

Because he's been hurt! Malcolm Kelly's been hurt too, does that make him a bust?

"That is completely different. Kelly's a rookie and has yet to start a game and prove anything. Rookies aren't suppose to make an impact. Kelly's best days are ahead of him. What has Taylor done to prove anything?"

Well JT has proven he's good and has 117 sacks(most in NFL active players). But he has been slowed this year by injury.

Its purely speculation that Kelly's best days are to come. What if he is a bust? As you stated he has yet to make the field.

But that's ok because he's a rookie. Rookies don't make impacts, ask the Rams about Avery's impact this week.

You must be right, like Portis was a bust his 06 season when he only started like 7 games and Betts had to replace him. He was on the decline you see, his best was behind him at that point. We should have gotten rid of him while we could.


You want someone to prove that he's NOT a bust. Yet it can't be proven that he IS a bust. Your proof is that he has'nt played much. But he has been hurt. How do you think the FO could have known this? You say, he's old and they should have known. Was Michael Strahan hurt in his last season and injury-prone? Is old man Favre hurt all the time just because he's old? Did JT have a history of injury? NO, NO and NO. There was no way to have known he would have gotten hurt ahead of time.


"That's what make him a bust, prove he's not. What has he done for us! He has yet to make an impact"

Nevermind I give up. Your right he is a complete bust because he got hurt fighting in the trenches for the skins. All Skin fans should turn against him!

[langleyparkjoe]

He's not a bust, your a bust.. bust deez bamma!

[markshark84]

"He's a bust, what has he done?"

Not much but he's been hurt.

"He's a bust, what's the point in trading for a guy who has done nothing?"

He's been durable his entire career an only has 117 sacks (most of all active players in the NFL)

"But that was with Miami he hasn't done nothing for us"

Because he's been hurt! Malcolm Kelly's been hurt too, does that make him a bust?

"That is completely different. Kelly's a rookie and has yet to start a game and prove anything. Rookies aren't suppose to make an impact. Kelly's best days are ahead of him. What has Taylor done to prove anything?"

Well JT has proven he's good and has 117 sacks(most in NFL active players). But he has been slowed this year by injury.

Its purely speculation that Kelly's best days are to come. What if he is a bust? As you stated he has yet to make the field.

But that's ok because he's a rookie. Rookies don't make impacts, ask the Rams about Avery's impact this week.

You must be right, like Portis was a bust his 06 season when he only started like 7 games and Betts had to replace him. He was on the decline you see, his best was behind him at that point. We should have gotten rid of him while we could.


You want someone to prove that he's NOT a bust. Yet it can't be proven that he IS a bust. Your proof is that he has'nt played much. But he has been hurt. How do you think the FO could have known this? You say, he's old and they should have known. Was Michael Strahan hurt in his last season and injury-prone? Is old man Favre hurt all the time just because he's old? Did JT have a history of injury? NO, NO and NO. There was no way to have known he would have gotten hurt ahead of time.


"That's what make him a bust, prove he's not. What has he done for us! He has yet to make an impact"

Nevermind I give up. Your right he is a complete bust because he got hurt fighting in the trenches for the skins. All Skin fans should turn against him!

Wow. You are about to fly right off this planet. I am not sure if you are responding to me, but I think it would be preferred that you quoted my post and not put words --- that I didn't say --- in my mouth in an attempt to prove your points.

In response, I said that WRs generally have mildly productive rookie seasons. Check it out. I did. I should have, however, put in "when compared to their career stats". Regardless, comparing what Avery did in one game is totally irrelevent -- just like comparing JT to Clinton Portis' injury season in 2006. In 2006 Portis was on his way to another 1,000 yard season --- AND HE WAS BARELY 25 YEARS OLD. JT, on the other hand, has 8 total tackles (on his way to a insane total of 16 for the year) and he is 34 years old. Did you really not put that together when making this analogy?

And it cannot be proven that he is a bust???? Are you serious. Everything that he has done and in every game he has played in, has been below expectation. That is what a bust is. He has played in most of the games this year --- and done nothing. It may be due to his injury, but guess what --- injuries can be the root of a busted trade.

Am I saying that JT is bad. No. Am I saying that he was never good. No. Am I saying that we haven't received what we gave for him. Yes.

Also, the fact that you say it is speculation that Kelly's bests days are in front of him is insane. It is just common sense that players tend to improve from their rookie year.

The past is the past. He has had a great career. But we have had a couple of DEs come here that had great careers elsewhere and came here after they peaked. That may or may not be the case here, but until I am proven otherwise, that is my position. I would love to be proven otherwise, but I just don't see it happening.

[VetSkinsFan]

And it cannot be proven that he is a bust???? Are you serious. Everything that he has done and in every game he has played in, has been below expectation. That is what a bust is. He has played in most of the games this year --- and done nothing. It may be due to his injury, but guess what --- injuries can be the root of a busted trade.

The man has missed something like 3 games out of 120 and now he's injury prone and a bust? That IS kinda off. Did we get what paid for him? Probably not, but the season's 1/2 over. You wanna discount 8 games of a rookie's professional career(which happens to be ALL of his career), but you won't discount 8 games over a decade or more? That is a completely fair comparison

And it cannot be proven that he is a bust???? Are you serious. Everything that he has done and in every game he has played in, has been below expectation. That is what a bust is. He has played in most of the games this year --- and done nothing. It may be due to his injury, but guess what --- injuries can be the root of a busted trade.

Did we get what we paid for? Probably not, but he's still contributed. I've never seen Redskin lineman peel off like JT does for screens/ passes in the flat. There is more to consider than one freakin stat.

Also, the fact that you say it is speculation that Kelly's bests days are in front of him is insane. It is just common sense that players tend to improve from their rookie year.

This is debatable. A lot of WRs never catch on and make it. There's been numerous threads here to support that theory, so to ASSUME he's going to get better is naive. There's a good chance, but I wouldn't bet MY paycheck on him panning out ( I wouldn't bet against it either, it's still 50/50).

Basically it's an opinion with a few subjective stats to support it. Only time will tell and everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how it leans.

[Irn-Bru]

We've also explored how historically great DE's have performed late in their career and found that injuries are not terribly common among 33 year-old players who didn't already have an injury history. So it's not like Jason Taylor has been fitting perfectly into a stereotype on that account, either.

[KazooSkinsFan]

I look forward to the late season push when JT starts making big plays and many people in this thread are forced to equivocate and backtrack.

Had we just signed him this week, this statement would be reasonable

We're 6-2 and he is going to be back and a major force in the late season and playoffs.

Not sure where you are getting your information. During his time in DC, he has not shown anything that would cause an individual to come to this conclusion. A major force? He has 8 tackles this season.

Trust me, I understand that you are blindly loyal to the skins, but it is not being negative or putting a team down to admit when a trade goes wrong. We couldn't have predicted the injuries (although it should have been a consideration due to his age and his statements regarding retirement), but that is the way it goes. And I apologize if I am upset that we gave up 2 draft picks for a DE that has almost zero production this year. I am not putting down the skins. I am pointing out the obvious.

Your post would be best described as premature evaluation. A sad condition leaving the reader greatly unsatisfied as weak, shallow data is quickly provided and the conclusion reached by the poster far to quickly leaving the unfulfilled reader behind. The reader needs some attention to the detail and a buildup of the argument based on an increasing use of facts followed by a deep, penetrating conclusion. Those are the posters the readers come back to for a second thread. They probably get more dates too.

Anyway, if my not being willing to hat on my team after 8 games because of one player makes me blindly loyal, what does it make someone who needs to hat on their team using shallow and frankly silly arguments after 8 games? You be the judge.

[CanesSkins26]

No, I wouldn't bet my mortgage on it, but if healthy, there is no reason to believe he would not revert to the form he has displayed his entire career, including last season when he was part of the league's worst team.

There is plenty of reason to believe that he wont revert to his old form. Mostly it comes from the fact that the Skins are using him in a way in which he has never been used before in his career. If we knew that the Skins were going to use him as a hybrid de/lb in a 3-4 defense then I would agree that he is more than likely going to revert to his old form. However, we all know that this isn't going to happen anytime soon. If he continues to be used on the strong side at 240 lbs then there is every reason to believe that he will continue to struggle and not make plays. That's not a knock on JT, it's the reality of the way that he is being used by the Skins.

[Deadskins]

He played most of the last game on the right side. There's no reason to believe that Blache will only play him at LDE.

[CanesSkins26]

He played most of the last game on the right side. There's no reason to believe that Blache will only play him at LDE.

Even on the weak side he is playing with his hand on the ground every play. Once again, that's not how he was used in Miami during the last few seasons.

[Wahoo McDaniels]

Did we get what we paid for? Probably not, but he's still contributed. I've never seen Redskin lineman peel off like JT does for screens/ passes in the flat. There is more to consider than one freakin stat.

The reason that he's able to peel off and get the screen pass is because he can't get any penetration and therefore he's already in position. Any offensive coordinator who's throwing screen passes to JT's side is an idiot unless they design the play so that the Tackle just let's him through (as they often do with screen plays). Even then it's a big risk. Although JT can't beat the back-up Tackle from the Lions, he still has the speed and athleticism to break up the play if completely unblocked.

[markshark84]

I look forward to the late season push when JT starts making big plays and many people in this thread are forced to equivocate and backtrack.

Had we just signed him this week, this statement would be reasonable

We're 6-2 and he is going to be back and a major force in the late season and playoffs.

Not sure where you are getting your information. During his time in DC, he has not shown anything that would cause an individual to come to this conclusion. A major force? He has 8 tackles this season.

Trust me, I understand that you are blindly loyal to the skins, but it is not being negative or putting a team down to admit when a trade goes wrong. We couldn't have predicted the injuries (although it should have been a consideration due to his age and his statements regarding retirement), but that is the way it goes. And I apologize if I am upset that we gave up 2 draft picks for a DE that has almost zero production this year. I am not putting down the skins. I am pointing out the obvious.

Your post would be best described as premature evaluation. A sad condition leaving the reader greatly unsatisfied as weak, shallow data is quickly provided and the conclusion reached by the poster far to quickly leaving the unfulfilled reader behind. The reader needs some attention to the detail and a buildup of the argument based on an increasing use of facts followed by a deep, penetrating conclusion. Those are the posters the readers come back to for a second thread. They probably get more dates too.

Anyway, if my not being willing to hat on my team after 8 games because of one player makes me blindly loyal, what does it make someone who needs to hat on their team using shallow and frankly silly arguments after 8 games? You be the judge.

I guess there are now two posters that are about to fly right off this planet.

I can remotely, however, see your only point that it is a premature evaluation --- in the sense that there is still another half to play in the season. But what I am attempting to articulate and caneskins assisted in was that my prediction is that he will be a bust based on what I have seen of his play (and where he is playing) this season. We'll see.