PROBLEM: scheme or quarterback?

[RayNAustin]

Yes, the Redskins have the personnel to run the West Coast effectively. We have a deep threat in Moss, ARE is a quick, decent slot receiver type, CC and Davis are excellent TE, and we have excellent RBs.

This business about needing tall receivers is arguable. Sure it's nice, but not necessary. Settle has had many small receivers 5' 10" Engram, Branch 5' 9" Jackson 5'11".

What is of primary importance is having a QB that reads and releases the ball quickly on three and five step drops, and revolves around short accurate passing and yac. The QB doesn't need a big gun since the routs are short. Another factor is having a legitimate speed threat on the outside to keep the defense honest, otherwise they'll play press cover 0, and take away that short passing game.

Sounds like a really bad fit for Campbell to me. He's slow, holds the ball too long, shows a lack of touch and accuracy on shorter routs and wants to play from the shotgun or 7 step drops.

[gibbs4president]

What is of primary importance is having a QB that reads and releases the ball quickly on three and five step drops, and revolves around short accurate passing and yac. The QB doesn't need a big gun since the routs are short. Another factor is having a legitimate speed threat on the outside to keep the defense honest, otherwise they'll play press cover 0, and take away that short passing game.

Sounds like a really bad fit for Campbell to me. He's slow, holds the ball too long, shows a lack of touch and accuracy on shorter routs and wants to play from the shotgun or 7 step drops.

Campbell has played exactly one regular season NFL game in this new offense. Maybe give him a few more games before you write him off? Sounds pretty fair to me...

[VetSkinsFan]

What is of primary importance is having a QB that reads and releases the ball quickly on three and five step drops, and revolves around short accurate passing and yac. The QB doesn't need a big gun since the routs are short. Another factor is having a legitimate speed threat on the outside to keep the defense honest, otherwise they'll play press cover 0, and take away that short passing game.

Sounds like a really bad fit for Campbell to me. He's slow, holds the ball too long, shows a lack of touch and accuracy on shorter routs and wants to play from the shotgun or 7 step drops.

Campbell has played exactly one regular season NFL game in this new offense. Maybe give him a few more games before you write him off? Sounds pretty fair to me...

How many times does he get " a few more games?"

[gibbs4president]

What is of primary importance is having a QB that reads and releases the ball quickly on three and five step drops, and revolves around short accurate passing and yac. The QB doesn't need a big gun since the routs are short. Another factor is having a legitimate speed threat on the outside to keep the defense honest, otherwise they'll play press cover 0, and take away that short passing game.

Sounds like a really bad fit for Campbell to me. He's slow, holds the ball too long, shows a lack of touch and accuracy on shorter routs and wants to play from the shotgun or 7 step drops.

Campbell has played exactly one regular season NFL game in this new offense. Maybe give him a few more games before you write him off? Sounds pretty fair to me...

How many times does he get " a few more games?"

What would you prefer?

[tribeofjudah]

I'M BEGINNING TO NOT LIKE JASON CAMPBELL.........

HE BASICALLY SUCKS.......

[VetSkinsFan]

What is of primary importance is having a QB that reads and releases the ball quickly on three and five step drops, and revolves around short accurate passing and yac. The QB doesn't need a big gun since the routs are short. Another factor is having a legitimate speed threat on the outside to keep the defense honest, otherwise they'll play press cover 0, and take away that short passing game.

Sounds like a really bad fit for Campbell to me. He's slow, holds the ball too long, shows a lack of touch and accuracy on shorter routs and wants to play from the shotgun or 7 step drops.

Campbell has played exactly one regular season NFL game in this new offense. Maybe give him a few more games before you write him off? Sounds pretty fair to me...

How many times does he get " a few more games?"

What would you prefer?

I'd prefer this is the last "few more games." If he can't cut it in a similar offense to where he earned his draft pick, then obviously he needs to go.

[Thundersloth]

Once Zorn was hired as OC they painted themselves into a corner and a smart coach, HELL, ANY STUPID COACH could see that we didn't have the personnel to run the WCO, but Dannyboy has to make a splash. I think he needs more attention than TO or Chad Ochocinqo.

Seriously? You think hiring Jim Zorn is making a splash?

Throwing 15 million a year at Cowher would have made a splash. Hiring an unknown like Zorn...not so splashy.

No making a wholesale change in your offense was the splash I was referring to. I honestly don't think Dannyboy enough $$ to throw at Cowher to make him come here.

[SkinsFreak]

I seriously doubt that, but if true, good, I don't want Cowher.

[gibbs4president]

ROTFALMAO I seriously doubt that, but if true, good, I don't want Cowher.

I second that...

[SkinsFreak]

I'd prefer this is the last "few more games." If he can't cut it in a similar offense to where he earned his draft pick, then obviously he needs to go.

Regardless of the outcome to our QB situation, I wouldn't want JC to go anywhere. If he's struggling and a QB change is needed, in time, if Colt is ready, then give Colt the nod. But keep JC right here. He's a solid QB, even if it were in a back up role. I'd hate to see him go elsewhere. JC has the potential and could very well go on to be good with someone else. I don't want that to happen just because of a few impatient fans. If JC requires more time than others, fine, we have an insurance policy in Colt. JC is still in a rookie contract, it's not like he's breaking the bank, yet. In todays NFL, you have to have two solid QB's on the roster. Regardless of order, JC and Colt look pretty good to me.

[roybus14]

Ray,

Once again you make some good points but let's look a few of the QB examples you laid out.

Big Ben - Ready made offense with strong running that was not complicated...

Palmer, P.Manning, Brady, McNair - better QBs coming out

Big Ben, Romo, Rivers - Ready made teams without complicated systems

Warner and Garcia already had plenty of "pro" experience from previous leagues(Warner walked in from a quick-hit WCO league (Arena) into Martz's similar system)

How many of these QB's had their mechanics tweaked by two different coaches?

His running game and O-Line didn't have the consistency these other guys lines had. A few hundred yard games don't make a good O-Line. This O-Line has been inconsistent as heck for years. Because if they weren't, Portis would have matched what he did in stats and big runs like he had in Denver.

I understand you don't like JC and you have a problem with those who see things differently. But look at this franchise since he has been here and look at what some of those other QBs mentioned franchises over that same time in terms of stability, continuity, etc. They don't compare. We don't know if any of those others would be like JC is now if they were put into similar circumstances because they not.

So I will agree to disagree with you on this.

But since you feel so strongly about JC and where he is at, what do you suggest we do to fix things???

[Thundersloth]

His running game and O-Line didn't have the consistency these other guys lines had. A few hundred yard games don't make a good O-Line. This O-Line has been inconsistent as heck for years. Because if they weren't, Portis would have matched what he did in stats and big runs like he had in Denver. Roybus quote

Roy, I like where your heads at. I see what you're saying about JC and I agree. Zorn as the HC, OC, QB Coach, waterboy, bus driver etc. (does anybody else think Zorns got too much responsibility for a rookie head coach too) has to shoulder some of the blame as well. It's hard to make a comparison of JC and all the other QBs mentioned because no front office has put any of those teams in the situation ours is in now. Well, maybe Cincy, but anyway, you can't expect a guy to come into the WC offense and be successful right away. If the WCO was easy, everybody would run it.

As far as the CP matching what he did in Denver, what former Denver running back has gone to any team and repeated that kind of success? Denver has always had undersized O-lines but they're mobile and they Zone block so well. That's the secret to their success in the running game. Having said that, yes, our O-line is inconsistent.

[crazyhorse1]

campell didn't EARN anything.

he is in the position he is in, because snyder has to have SOME return on his investment.

hey skinsfreak, i hear that there are still j campell jersey's for sale at redskins.com. he would love for you to show your support. (so would snyderatto)

I believe he has, at least from the standpoint of our current QB roster. And the excuses for Collins are just that... excuses. Talent trumps all in this league. If Collins had the talent, he'd be starting and I'd be backing him.

You and a few others seem to be missing my general point... my instincts are to believe the coaches, not some armchair QB's on a message board.

Excuses for Collins? He played great. He needs no excuses. The coaches didn't hit those TD passes, and neither did the system. Collins did it, with his weak arm. Campbell is the one who needs excuses.

Your instincts? Your beleifs? That's what I should believe instead of what I see with my own eyes?

I hate to break the news to you, but Campbell isn't the only "questionable" personnel decision made by the previous regime, in case you have amnesia.

And Zorn didn't "choose" Campbell, Zorn is stuck with him until the organization puts the teams best interests ahead of their massive egos.

If Campbell was a 5th round pick, or his name was Mark Brunell, ALL OF YOU would be calling for execution...and not just benching.

And for the record, I happen to like Colt more than JC, I posted about Colt before the draft. It's just that I believe Colt needs to sit and learn a while and JC is our better option... at this point.

It's funny actually, I agree with Gibbs and Zorn, not the perpetual nay sayers, and I'm the one, along with the coaches, who has it all wrong. That's a good one.

Hey hailskins, sure would love to see you wear a Collins jersey to a game. That would be a hoot, I can hear the jokes now.

[/quote]


Ray's right here. Collins was terrific when he got a shot. I'd like to see him get another one; right now, Campbell looks unable to play behind our line. He's slow to spot receivers and his motion might be better but its still too slow. Collins gets passes off quicker and has much better capacity to find open receivers--even in Zorn's offense.

[CanesSkins26]

Ray's right here. Collins was terrific when he got a shot. I'd like to see him get another one; right now, Campbell looks unable to play behind our line. He's slow to spot receivers and his motion might be better but its still too slow. Collins gets passes off quicker and has much better capacity to find open receivers--even in Zorn's offense.

If that's the case, how come Collins looked even worse than JC during the preseason?

[Thundersloth]

Collins is not the answer. If he was, he would have been a starter a looooong time ago.

[RayNAustin]

Ray,

Once again you make some good points but let's look a few of the QB examples you laid out.

Big Ben - Ready made offense with strong running that was not complicated...

Palmer, P.Manning, Brady, McNair - better QBs coming out

Big Ben, Romo, Rivers - Ready made teams without complicated systems

Warner and Garcia already had plenty of "pro" experience from previous leagues(Warner walked in from a quick-hit WCO league (Arena) into Martz's similar system)

How many of these QB's had their mechanics tweaked by two different coaches?

His running game and O-Line didn't have the consistency these other guys lines had. A few hundred yard games don't make a good O-Line. This O-Line has been inconsistent as heck for years. Because if they weren't, Portis would have matched what he did in stats and big runs like he had in Denver.

I understand you don't like JC and you have a problem with those who see things differently. But look at this franchise since he has been here and look at what some of those other QBs mentioned franchises over that same time in terms of stability, continuity, etc. They don't compare. We don't know if any of those others would be like JC is now if they were put into similar circumstances because they not.

So I will agree to disagree with you on this.

But since you feel so strongly about JC and where he is at, what do you suggest we do to fix things???

You aren't paying close enough attention. All of the QBs listed....the success they had was in their first and second years in the NFL..

Just a point that most of the good ones don't take three and four years to prove it.

[El Mexican]

Ray,

Once again you make some good points but let's look a few of the QB examples you laid out.

Big Ben - Ready made offense with strong running that was not complicated...

Palmer, P.Manning, Brady, McNair - better QBs coming out

Big Ben, Romo, Rivers - Ready made teams without complicated systems

Warner and Garcia already had plenty of "pro" experience from previous leagues(Warner walked in from a quick-hit WCO league (Arena) into Martz's similar system)

How many of these QB's had their mechanics tweaked by two different coaches?

His running game and O-Line didn't have the consistency these other guys lines had. A few hundred yard games don't make a good O-Line. This O-Line has been inconsistent as heck for years. Because if they weren't, Portis would have matched what he did in stats and big runs like he had in Denver.

I understand you don't like JC and you have a problem with those who see things differently. But look at this franchise since he has been here and look at what some of those other QBs mentioned franchises over that same time in terms of stability, continuity, etc. They don't compare. We don't know if any of those others would be like JC is now if they were put into similar circumstances because they not.

So I will agree to disagree with you on this.

But since you feel so strongly about JC and where he is at, what do you suggest we do to fix things???

You aren't paying close enough attention. All of the QBs listed....the success they had was in their first and second years in the NFL..

Just a point that most of the good ones don't take three and four years to prove it.

Ray, you are correct when you say "most of the good ones do not take three and four years to prove it".

Right now, this team needs a SOLID QB, not a good one. One that won´t kill you with turnovers and let the running game and defense control the game.

If we can get that from JC, we have a good chance to make the playoffs. Expecting otherwise, for him to light up the NFL in a new system, is nonsense.

[Thundersloth]

Skinsfreak quote
Seriously? Do you just throw it out and hope it sticks. Come on, man.

I understand there's been some hesitation regarding Campbell fitting a WCO. But the fact remains he had his most successful year, in his entire football playing career, playing in a WCO. Until he fails in this system, the history is in his favor. And if he does fail, Colt Brennan has the arm and the mobility needed in a WCO, probably why Zorn wanted him. Colt threw a lot of passes in college and had a 70+ completion percentage.

Portis had his best days playing in a WCO in Denver. Sellers is an outstanding FB, a staple position in a WCO. Both Portis and Betts, even Sellers, are good receivers out of the backfield.

I don't know if you've noticed that Al Saunders version of the WCO is NOT the same as the new JZ version. And it's great that you look at "skill players" but look at the O-line in Denver, smaller mobile guys, they usuallly have the lightest guys in the league.

The kind of WCO Zorny runs relys less on backs catching the ball than the old Bill Walsh version. Shaun Alexander's most catches in a season in the WCO is 59, so they only threw to him about 3 times a game, most likely as a checkdown so backs catching the ball out of the backfield doesn't seem like a primary concern.

As far as throwing things out and having them stick, I've coached before so I see things like a coach (admittedly not at the NFL level). Looking at the situation, and having talked to a guy that coaches in the NFL who went to Georgetown, I get an idea of what's being said amongst NFL coaches. It's not a big secret the 2 least desireable head coaching jobs in the league are here in Washington and Oakland.

[RayNAustin]

Ray's right here. Collins was terrific when he got a shot. I'd like to see him get another one; right now, Campbell looks unable to play behind our line. He's slow to spot receivers and his motion might be better but its still too slow. Collins gets passes off quicker and has much better capacity to find open receivers--even in Zorn's offense.

If that's the case, how come Collins looked even worse than JC during the preseason?

He didn't look worse. His rating was higher...he had 70% comp with more attempts, versus Campbell's 59%, and each had 1 TD.

The fact is you can't have it both ways. Campbell got the majority of preparation and attention as the starter. Everybody says it takes time to learn, but you expect Collins to look like Peyton Manning just to get a chance.

No one suggests that Collins is a long term solution at his age. And no one suggests that he's as physically gifted as Campbell. But Colling's strengths are that he is extremely accurate, and has a much quicker release....two of the major requirements of running the WC. Those are the very areas that Campbell has difficulty.

And just to clear something up for some here....the West Coast Offense isn't a mysterious, rare breed.....half of the NFL runs it. It requires way less physical potential at QB and way more mental quickness. Collins has demonstrated superior skills in those areas. Maybe he needs a game or two to get comfortable? Or is that consideration reserved for Jason Campbell only?

[RayNAustin]

Ray,

Once again you make some good points but let's look a few of the QB examples you laid out.

Big Ben - Ready made offense with strong running that was not complicated...

Palmer, P.Manning, Brady, McNair - better QBs coming out

Big Ben, Romo, Rivers - Ready made teams without complicated systems

Warner and Garcia already had plenty of "pro" experience from previous leagues(Warner walked in from a quick-hit WCO league (Arena) into Martz's similar system)

How many of these QB's had their mechanics tweaked by two different coaches?

His running game and O-Line didn't have the consistency these other guys lines had. A few hundred yard games don't make a good O-Line. This O-Line has been inconsistent as heck for years. Because if they weren't, Portis would have matched what he did in stats and big runs like he had in Denver.

I understand you don't like JC and you have a problem with those who see things differently. But look at this franchise since he has been here and look at what some of those other QBs mentioned franchises over that same time in terms of stability, continuity, etc. They don't compare. We don't know if any of those others would be like JC is now if they were put into similar circumstances because they not.

So I will agree to disagree with you on this.

But since you feel so strongly about JC and where he is at, what do you suggest we do to fix things???

You aren't paying close enough attention. All of the QBs listed....the success they had was in their first and second years in the NFL..

Just a point that most of the good ones don't take three and four years to prove it.

Ray, you are correct when you say "most of the good ones do not take three and four years to prove it".

Right now, this team needs a SOLID QB, not a good one. One that won´t kill you with turnovers and let the running game and defense control the game.

If we can get that from JC, we have a good chance to make the playoffs. Expecting otherwise, for him to light up the NFL in a new system, is nonsense.

We have a solid QB. Collins. Anyone that can't see this, doesn't really understand the WCO. Of all offensive systems, the WC is probably the best fit for a guy of Collins skill level. He's not particularly mobile, and he doesn't have the big gun, but he's quick, he's accurate, and he's demonstrated that he can hit the down field stuff.

In order to be successful in the WC, you have to get the ball into the recievers hands quickly to allow yards after the catch. That's the foundation of the WC. It's like a pass running attack. Short patterns of 3-5 yards with the receiver then picking up additional yards.

I think that's why we saw so many 3rd downs coming up 1 yard short. Give the defense an additional 1/2 to 1 second to close on the receiver, and that yac is reduced.

In addition, locking on to a receiver clues the defense to where the play is going and allows them to close more effectively, again, reducing that yac.

And this is not a system thing or a comfort thing with Campbell....this is a trait that was identified in the scouting report on him in college. That's why he didn't progress much last year from 2006. These are issues for him, and they are the exact faults that you CAN'T have in a WCO.

[Deadskins]

Ray,

Once again you make some good points but let's look a few of the QB examples you laid out.

Big Ben - Ready made offense with strong running that was not complicated...

Palmer, P.Manning, Brady, McNair - better QBs coming out

Big Ben, Romo, Rivers - Ready made teams without complicated systems

Warner and Garcia already had plenty of "pro" experience from previous leagues(Warner walked in from a quick-hit WCO league (Arena) into Martz's similar system)

How many of these QB's had their mechanics tweaked by two different coaches?

His running game and O-Line didn't have the consistency these other guys lines had. A few hundred yard games don't make a good O-Line. This O-Line has been inconsistent as heck for years. Because if they weren't, Portis would have matched what he did in stats and big runs like he had in Denver.

I understand you don't like JC and you have a problem with those who see things differently. But look at this franchise since he has been here and look at what some of those other QBs mentioned franchises over that same time in terms of stability, continuity, etc. They don't compare. We don't know if any of those others would be like JC is now if they were put into similar circumstances because they not.

So I will agree to disagree with you on this.

But since you feel so strongly about JC and where he is at, what do you suggest we do to fix things???

You aren't paying close enough attention. All of the QBs listed....the success they had was in their first and second years in the NFL..

Completely untrue. I've already pointed out to you several times where many of these QB's did not even play until their third or fourth year in the NFL, and the ones that did had pedestrian numbers in their early years.

[Deadskins]

Ray's right here. Collins was terrific when he got a shot. I'd like to see him get another one; right now, Campbell looks unable to play behind our line. He's slow to spot receivers and his motion might be better but its still too slow. Collins gets passes off quicker and has much better capacity to find open receivers--even in Zorn's offense.

If that's the case, how come Collins looked even worse than JC during the preseason?

He didn't look worse. His rating was higher...he had 70% comp with more attempts, versus Campbell's 59%, and each had 1 TD.

And Collins played three times as much as JC in pre-season. And he was playing against second and third stringers. Collins looked much worse than JC in the pre-season.

[markshark84]

Ray's right here. Collins was terrific when he got a shot. I'd like to see him get another one; right now, Campbell looks unable to play behind our line. He's slow to spot receivers and his motion might be better but its still too slow. Collins gets passes off quicker and has much better capacity to find open receivers--even in Zorn's offense.

If that's the case, how come Collins looked even worse than JC during the preseason?

He didn't look worse. His rating was higher...he had 70% comp with more attempts, versus Campbell's 59%, and each had 1 TD.

And Collins played three times as much as JC in pre-season. And he was playing against second and third stringers. Collins looked much worse than JC in the pre-season.

This conversation has really taken a petty turn. Who cares what anyone did in the preseason??? To say either one of these QBs performed better in the preseason is not only stupid, but irrelevent.

This is what is relevent: based on JC's body of work over the past 3 seasons, do you think that his performance warrants the starting job. Additionally, do you think that his body of work warrants a secure starting spot based on what the backups have done (and for Colt, you only can use preseason -- which is dumb, but he is a rookie and have nothing else to go on) and there should be no talk of bringing in someone new.

Personally, I don't think so. He has not done enough to have a secure first string starting job like a Brady, Rothlesburger, Manning, Manning, Favre, Palmer, etc. would.

In three years, I cannot recall a firey-come-from-behind win by JC or an offensive blowout (sans the Detroit game -- which was a gloried high school squad). Sure I know all the excuses like Gibbs played a conservative offense or that Gibbs sat on leads; but the fact is that if JC produced, the offense would have scored. If Gibbs had confidence in JC, he would have opened up the offense. Besides, it's not like after building a leads Gibbs intended for us to go 3 and out on every play.

[RayNAustin]

Completely untrue. I've already pointed out to you several times where many of these QB's did not even play until their third or fourth year in the NFL, and the ones that did had pedestrian numbers in their early years.

No, I remember you pointing out the 4 years that Hasselbeck spent in Green Bay when it was really 2 years and 29 total pass attempts. Now you want to suggest I can't read or am somehow misleading when I'm not. But to answer that false charge here it is....read it and retract your allegation:

Tom Brady drafted 6th round. Did not play in rookie year. Second year, started 14 games, 2,843 18 TD. Third year (second year starting) 3,764 yards 28 TD

Ben Roethlisberger Played in his rookie year after Maddox and Batch went down with injuries. Started 3rd string in camp, and wound up the rookie of the year. Took Pittsburgh to the Super Bowl in his second year. Rookie 2,621 yards 17 TD in 13 games

Peyton Manning - Started his rookie year and compiled 3,743 yards and 26 TD. His second year, 4,135 yards and 26 TD

Tony Romo first year 95.1 - Romo was signed by Dallas in 2003. No pass attempts ZERO in 2003, 2004, 2005. Wade Phillips took over as Coach and Romo saw his first action in 2006, (started 10 games) and ended the year with a 95.1 passer rating. At the end of 2006, Jason Garrett was hired as the new Offensive coach and installed his system. Romo was even better under the new offense and finished with a 97.4 rating. TOTAL GAME EXPERIENCE 26 games or 6 games more than Jason Campbell. Furthermore, Romo had 10 games in one system, and 16 games in another, whereas Campbell played all 20 games under Saunder's one system.

Jeff Garcia First year 2544 yards 11 TD. His second year 4,278 yards and 31 TD

Kurt Warner His rookie year he only had 11 pass attempts. His second year he threw for 4,353 yards and 41 TD

Philip Rivers 2004-2005 no games started, and had 30 total pass attempts in 2 years. 2006 he started all 16 games, 3,388 yards 22 TD. 2007 Norv Turner came in (new system) he had 3,152 and 21 TD.

Mark Brunell Drafted by Green Bay 1993. Packers 1993-1994 no games started, 27 total pass attempts. 1995 First year with Jaguars, 10 games, 2,168 yards 15 TD. Second year Jaguars 4,367 yards 19 TD.

Marc Bulger Rookie year, no games, no pass attempts. Second year, 7 games 1,836 yards 12 TD. Third year (7 games experience) 3,845 yards and 22 TD.

Carson Palmer Rookie year did not play. Second year (13 games) 2,897 yards 18 TD. Third year (13 games experience) 3,836 yards 32 TD

Chad Pennington 2000-2001 had 25 total pass attempts over 2 years. Third year (first 12 games starting) 3,120 yards 22 TD

So what I said was exactly true, and there are the numbers to prove it.

It's very disingenuous of you to constantly claim Campbell is this perpetual rookie when he has been a Redskin for 4 years, while suggesting some other QB that sat out his Rookie year, but started and excelled in his first season starting as a 2nd year player. None of you EVER count Campbell's 1 1/2 years here on the bench as experience except to count Gibbs offense when claiming so many systems he had to learn. When it come to experience, you start at the time he began playing in 2006 when he is in fact in his 4th year here.

Additionally, this constant talk of how Campbell has had to learn "all" of those various systems is misleading. Campbell became the starter in 2006 under Saunders offense, and played every game he ever started in 2006-2007 (20 games) under the same system. while guys like Romo actually did have two systems in two years, and still played 10 times better than Campbell.

[Deadskins]

Ray's right here. Collins was terrific when he got a shot. I'd like to see him get another one; right now, Campbell looks unable to play behind our line. He's slow to spot receivers and his motion might be better but its still too slow. Collins gets passes off quicker and has much better capacity to find open receivers--even in Zorn's offense.

If that's the case, how come Collins looked even worse than JC during the preseason?

He didn't look worse. His rating was higher...he had 70% comp with more attempts, versus Campbell's 59%, and each had 1 TD.

And Collins played three times as much as JC in pre-season. And he was playing against second and third stringers. Collins looked much worse than JC in the pre-season.

This conversation has really taken a petty turn. Who cares what anyone did in the preseason??? To say either one of these QBs performed better in the preseason is not only stupid, but irrelevent.

This is what is relevent: based on JC's body of work over the past 3 seasons, do you think that his performance warrants the starting job. Additionally, do you think that his body of work warrants a secure starting spot based on what the backups have done (and for Colt, you only can use preseason -- which is dumb, but he is a rookie and have nothing else to go on) and there should be no talk of bringing in someone new.

Personally, I don't think so. He has not done enough to have a secure first string starting job like a Brady, Rothlesburger, Manning, Manning, Favre, Palmer, etc. would.

In three years, I cannot recall a firey-come-from-behind win by JC or an offensive blowout (sans the Detroit game -- which was a gloried high school squad). Sure I know all the excuses like Gibbs played a conservative offense or that Gibbs sat on leads; but the fact is that if JC produced, the offense would have scored. If Gibbs had confidence in JC, he would have opened up the offense. Besides, it's not like after building a leads Gibbs intended for us to go 3 and out on every play.

I was only taking Ray to task for his "Collins played better in pre-season" remark. JC has only played for the last two seasons, not three. But yes, I would say he has done enough to keep the starting job in those years. But look who his competition was. He was brought in when Brunell was stinking up the place in 2006, because Joe wanted him to get some actual game experience. In 2007, our offensive line was devastated by injuries from the first game on, and it was only late in the season when the replacements started to gel, and actually offer some protection. Finally, if you look back at my posts in this thread and the Best QB thread, I have stated repeatedly that what I find most alarming about JC is his lack of late game comebacks.