Page 4 of 7

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:47 pm
by Assasin atm
PulpExposure wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
PulpExposure wrote:
Assasin atm wrote: Zorn needs a big bruising target to go over the middle (key route in west coast offenses) as well as providing JC with a tall target. which makes his job a little easier and more forgiving.


Hi, my name is Chris Cooley. I made the ProBowl last year. I'm a pretty big guy, who is pretty good in the passing game.

I guess you forgot about me?


One target isn't enough. Nobody is diminishing Chris Cooley, but we need a lot more production from our wide receivers. At this point the only receivers on our roster that have produced in the NFL are Moss, ARE, and Thrash. After that it's bunch of nobodies with Mix, McMullen, etc.


I agree with you, but that's not his premise. His premise is we need a BIG POSSESSION TARGET. We have one. Could we use another? Sure...but what we could use more than anything is a good wide receiver.

Marvin Harrison isn't a big guy by any stretch, but could we use someone as good as him? Uh, yeah.


true but that might have jus a lil bit to do with the man passing him the ball. I think his name is manning os sumthin like that. Moss would b that good catching balls from him. We don't need a MH. We have enough short, deep threat receivers. So until we have a hall of fame quarteback- we are gona need a big boy to make JC's job easier.

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:42 am
by VetSkinsFan
Assasin atm wrote:
PulpExposure wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
PulpExposure wrote:
Assasin atm wrote: Zorn needs a big bruising target to go over the middle (key route in west coast offenses) as well as providing JC with a tall target. which makes his job a little easier and more forgiving.


Hi, my name is Chris Cooley. I made the ProBowl last year. I'm a pretty big guy, who is pretty good in the passing game.

I guess you forgot about me?


One target isn't enough. Nobody is diminishing Chris Cooley, but we need a lot more production from our wide receivers. At this point the only receivers on our roster that have produced in the NFL are Moss, ARE, and Thrash. After that it's bunch of nobodies with Mix, McMullen, etc.


I agree with you, but that's not his premise. His premise is we need a BIG POSSESSION TARGET. We have one. Could we use another? Sure...but what we could use more than anything is a good wide receiver.

Marvin Harrison isn't a big guy by any stretch, but could we use someone as good as him? Uh, yeah.


true but that might have jus a lil bit to do with the man passing him the ball. I think his name is manning os sumthin like that. Moss would b that good catching balls from him. We don't need a MH. We have enough short, deep threat receivers. So until we have a hall of fame quarteback- we are gona need a big boy to make JC's job easier.



I can't think of a team out there that would turn down a Marvin Harrison. Does his job with excellence, no ego, no drama..... nah, we don't want that -drinking

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:10 am
by SkinsFreak
Assasin atm wrote:
PulpExposure wrote:
Assasin atm wrote: Zorn needs a big bruising target to go over the middle (key route in west coast offenses) as well as providing JC with a tall target. which makes his job a little easier and more forgiving.


Hi, my name is Chris Cooley. I made the ProBowl last year. I'm a pretty big guy, who is pretty good in the passing game.

I guess you forgot about me?


no I remember bud. But you are one man who is a tight end and who is double covered especially in the red zone. A west coast offenses main staple is based around a big RECIEVER. That's the way its historically been and this situation is no different. A James Hardy 6'6" 235ish would have made a huge differnce in the redzone last year. A good handed TE and a big possession WR are a must 2 run a good WCO.


That's not necessarily the case. Tight ends and full backs are just as important in the WCO.

"I don't know if I want to say 'big' is the prerequisite," he said. "It can't be a 5-8 guy, I don't believe, but that's something [selecting a wide receiver high in the draft] that has to be definitely considered. I think it'll depend on who's available."


On the Redskins' offensive personnel fitting his quick-hitting, West Coast scheme:

"Probably the key areas are tight end -- what type of tight end are you going to have? Are you going to have more than two or three receivers at any time so your wide receiver group is important. To be diversified in that group. If we're going to be a two-back run team what's our fullback going to be like? Our fullback at times can look like a tight end [which fits incumbent Mike Sellers]. We have a little bit of flexibility there. Even [Pro Bowl tight end] Chris Cooley can be in the backfield. He's not going to be our lead blocker like our fullback would be, but you can create a little deception that way."

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:23 am
by PulpExposure
SkinsFreak wrote:
Assasin atm wrote:
PulpExposure wrote:
Assasin atm wrote: Zorn needs a big bruising target to go over the middle (key route in west coast offenses) as well as providing JC with a tall target. which makes his job a little easier and more forgiving.


Hi, my name is Chris Cooley. I made the ProBowl last year. I'm a pretty big guy, who is pretty good in the passing game.

I guess you forgot about me?


no I remember bud. But you are one man who is a tight end and who is double covered especially in the red zone. A west coast offenses main staple is based around a big RECIEVER. That's the way its historically been and this situation is no different. A James Hardy 6'6" 235ish would have made a huge differnce in the redzone last year. A good handed TE and a big possession WR are a must 2 run a good WCO.


That's not necessarily the case. Tight ends and full backs are just as important in the WCO.


I posted elsewhere that the Niners BIG POSSESSION receiver was...Jerry Rice? The rest of their receivers weren't big at all. I just don't get how people think it's a necessity to line up Harold Carmichael to run the WCO.

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:55 pm
by CanesSkins26
PulpExposure wrote:
SkinsFreak wrote:
Assasin atm wrote:
PulpExposure wrote:
Assasin atm wrote: Zorn needs a big bruising target to go over the middle (key route in west coast offenses) as well as providing JC with a tall target. which makes his job a little easier and more forgiving.


Hi, my name is Chris Cooley. I made the ProBowl last year. I'm a pretty big guy, who is pretty good in the passing game.

I guess you forgot about me?


no I remember bud. But you are one man who is a tight end and who is double covered especially in the red zone. A west coast offenses main staple is based around a big RECIEVER. That's the way its historically been and this situation is no different. A James Hardy 6'6" 235ish would have made a huge differnce in the redzone last year. A good handed TE and a big possession WR are a must 2 run a good WCO.


That's not necessarily the case. Tight ends and full backs are just as important in the WCO.


I posted elsewhere that the Niners BIG POSSESSION receiver was...Jerry Rice? The rest of their receivers weren't big at all. I just don't get how people think it's a necessity to line up Harold Carmichael to run the WCO.


Jerry Rice was 6'2. Moss and ARE are both listed at 5'10, which is a pretty generous measurement for both of those guys. Nobody is saying that we need a giant receiver, but we need a receiver with some size and strength that can go across the middle and also be an effective receiver in the red zone. Other than Cooley we don't have a go-to target in the red zone. Getting a taller receiver would also give JC a bigger target and make his job a lot easier and give him a bigger margin for error on his throws. On top of that we need a starting receiver. There's no point in getting another small, speed guy to fill that role when we already have Moss and ARE.

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:03 pm
by PulpExposure
Again, Canes, you're arguing a point I completely agree with. I completely agree we need a receiver. Completely.

CanesSkins26 wrote:Nobody is saying that we need a giant receiver,


You're not saying that. But Assassin atm has constantly been. That distinction is exactly what I'm getting at.

Assassin atm wrote:Zorn needs a big bruising target to go over the middle (key route in west coast offenses)


Assassin atm wrote:A west coast offenses main staple is based around a big RECIEVER.


He's pressing for James Hardy, who is enormous. I'd be happy with Kelly, Sweed, Thomas, or Hardy. I just want a receiver who has some size, who can play.

Jerry Rice was 6'2", sure, but 200 pounds. He hardly qualified as big by any stretch (and before you say that was 20 years ago, last time I checked, he had 1000 yards in the WCO 6 years ago). What he was, was...good. And that's what we need.

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:08 pm
by CanesSkins26
PulpExposure wrote:Again, Canes, you're arguing a point I completely agree with. I completely agree we need a receiver. Completely.

CanesSkins26 wrote:Nobody is saying that we need a giant receiver,


You're not saying that. But Assassin atm has constantly been. That distinction is exactly what I'm getting at.

Assassin atm wrote:Zorn needs a big bruising target to go over the middle (key route in west coast offenses)


Assassin atm wrote:A west coast offenses main staple is based around a big RECIEVER.


He's pressing for James Hardy, who is enormous. I'd be happy with Kelly, Sweed, Thomas, or Hardy. I just want a receiver who has some size, who can play.

Jerry Rice was 6'2", sure, but 200 pounds. He hardly qualified as big by any stretch (and before you say that was 20 years ago, last time I checked, he had 1000 yards in the WCO 6 years ago). What he was, was...good. And that's what we need.


Sorry if I misunderstood you. :D

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:14 pm
by BnGhog
The best way to defend the WCO is the the Bump and run.

The QB has to throw to the spot, and the route has to be ran and times right. Bump and Run throws that out of sink.

Any time we play an aggressive, hard hitting D, they can always bump Moss and ARL off route. I noticed this alot last year.

The answer... a 6'3 WR to push the DB around instead of the other way around.

Too me this is the bigest reason to add size. Sure there is the red zone threat also. But to me its more than that. Its more about being able to run things against what the D is giving you. They give you Zone, Let Moss or ARL or Cooley find the holes. The playing Bump and Run, We need the big guy on the outside. This is why I like to push for Mix to get his shot. I don't car if he's slow, as long as he has real good hands, we already have two speed guys on the field.

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:18 pm
by yupchagee
BnGhog wrote:The best way to defend the WCO is the the Bump and run.

The QB has to throw to the spot, and the route has to be ran and times right. Bump and Run throws that out of sink.

Any time we play an aggressive, hard hitting D, they can always bump Moss and ARL off route. I noticed this alot last year.

The answer... a 6'3 WR to push the DB around instead of the other way around.

Too me this is the bigest reason to add size. Sure there is the red zone threat also. But to me its more than that. Its more about being able to run things against what the D is giving you. They give you Zone, Let Moss or ARL or Cooley find the holes. The playing Bump and Run, We need the big guy on the outside.


I didn't know it was so easy to defend the WCO! Just use bump & run! It's amazing that the WCO has had any success at all.

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:14 pm
by CanesSkins26
Is Jason Campbell a good fit for the West Coast Offense?

Posted By Brian Mulholland On March 16, 2008 @ 11:43 am In Jim Zorn, Todd Collins, Washington Redskins Offense, Jason Campbell, The Redskins | 7 Comments

The Coryell offense has been a staple here in the nation’s capital. 22 of the past 26 years have featured a Washington Redskins offense called by a coach off of the Coryell coaching tree, be it Al Saunders, Joe Gibbs or Norv Turner. The team’s records in those 4 other years were 4-12, 8-8, 7-9, and 5-11.

The team’s move over to the West Coast offense and the Bill Walsh coaching tree feels a little like it is abandoning its identity.The scariest part of entering this brave new world is what it means for quarterback Jason Campbell. A quality quarterback makes just about everything else on a team easier. While the offensive and/or defensive lines may be more important as entire units, no single player impacts a team’s success like a quarterback. The Redskins have flirted a few times with quality quarterbacks, but the club has been unsuccessfully searching for someone to fill the role on a permanent basis for decades. Their inability to fill this hole has been one of the central failings of the 90s and 00s.

Jason Campbell has shown flashes that he just might be the man to end that search.Campbell, however, was drafted to play in a Gibbs-esque power offense that max protects, runs alot, and throws predominantly downfield off play-action. The attributes Joe Gibbs always sought in his quarterbacks were toughness, size, arm strength, and intelligence. Jason fits that description fairly well, and likely would have done well in such an offense.

The West Coast offense puts emphasis on accuracy, timing, anticipation, quick release, and mobility. Jason fits this description less well. He does have mobility, and his intelligence implies that with time he might be able to acquire the other attributes, but as of today, it seems like a poor fit.At Joe Gibbs’ second retirement press conference, Dan Snyder spoke of the premium the team was going to place on continuity. Many fans took this as a wink and a nod confirmation that Gregg Williams would become head coach, and perhaps more importantly, that Jason Campbell would work in the same system for the third consecutive year under Al Saunders.Snyder could not say so explicitly of course because of the Rooney Rule which requires teams to at least interview a minority candidate during any coaching change. It is a well-meaning rule that has surpassed any reasonable expectations for its success, but which means that teams with obvious successors sometimes have to pretend they are going through a process when their minds are already made up. This seemed to be the case with the Washington Redskins.

Turns out that wasn’t what he meant at all. Snyder apparently meant continuity in player personnel more so than coaches or schemes based on the fact that he made a move with the offense that was the least continuity oriented of any move they could have made short of bringing June Jones back to the NFL. So does the Zorn era spell doom for Jason Campbell? Have the Washington Redskins sabotaged yet another potential solution to their QB problem as they so recently seemed to with Patrick Ramsey, or can Jason make the transition and possibly even become a better player because of it? There are plenty of reasons to be pessimistic, but also quite a few reasons to feel optimistic. Let’s review some.

Pessimism

1) Jason is inaccurate. Jason dramatically improved his completion percentage from 53.1% in 2006 to 60% in 2007. In the old days, 60% was quite good. Today 60% is merely adequate. 65% or more is what a difference-maker will complete. But accuracy is not just about catches and incompletions, and is not what is most worrisome here. This statistic has as much to do with receiver drops, reading defenses, and other issues. No, the complaint here is about simply putting the ball on target.

Far to many of Jason’s passes, especially on short and medium passes force the receiver to make dramatic adjustments to the ball. This turns what should be routine catch & run completions into difficult acrobatic receptions with little to no RAC (Run After Catch) yards. Jason flashes insane accuracy on some difficult passes, such as some of the intermediate and deep fades he threw in 2007 wherein the pass was dropped perfectly onto the outside shoulder of the receiver and was thrown early, well before the safety could get over to help. However, Jason has yet to show the ability to consistently place the ball right in the receivers frame without forcing him to break stride. The WCO demands this of its quarterbacks.

2) Jason has a slow delivery. This is another area that Jason showed major improvement in from 2006 to 2007, but more progress needs to be made. Jason is a long-armed QB, and this problem seems common to many similarly built QBs. Jason has a tendency to take the ball DOWN as he cocks his arm back at the start of his throwing motion, and arguably cocks his arm to far back. This is a very natural feeling motion, creating a windmill windup that feels like it is helping the power of the throw.

In fact, the extra motion exposes the ball to backside rushers resulting in strips. Jason was tied for 2nd for the most fumbles with Eli Manning in 2007 with 13. Only Jon Kitna with 16 had more. With only 13 starts, Jason started the 2nd fewest games of any QB with double digit fumbles (Josh McCown of OAK being the fewest). This is despite having the 12th lowest sack percentage. Those statistics certainly don’t prove causation, and the sack percentage is a mediocre stat for measuring pressure, but I think it does paint the picture that Jason fumbled more often than average when contacted, and there is reason to believe his windup throwing motion was a major contributing factor.

The extra motion also slows the ball’s delivery. While Jason’s ample arm strength can make up for this delay on longer passes, a slower delivery gives the defenders an extra moment to react, reducing yards after catch and possibly allowing them to contest the reception.

It is also likely that the extra motion is impairing his accuracy. The more exaggerated a movement is, the more natural variation is going to creep in. Any golfer can can attest that a few centimeters or degrees in a swing can change the trajectory of the ball by yards, and the principle is the same (though less dramatic) in a passing motion.

3) Jason does not make quick decisions or anticipate receivers coming uncovered as well as a West Coast QB will need. Watching the difference in playing style between Todd Collins and Jason, one can draw a pretty safe comparison and see that Jason was tending to drop back and watch for open receivers, while Todd Collins was dropping back, analyzing the defense and making his decision before the receiver uncovered.

He knew from the responsibilities, or how the coverage was shaded one way or another who was going to come open and when. He could throw the ball so that when the receiver turned to find the football it was already halfway there. Close enough that the defense had not had time to close the separation yet. The results are uncontested catches and great run after catch opportunities. Jason has flashed this a few times on some short out routes and slants, but has not done it with consistency.

4) Jason has a million voices in his head. Jason Campbell is about to learn from the 7th different offensive coordinator in the last 8 years. This is far from the ideal formula for developing a young quarterback. It means Campbell has almost certainly spent much time each year learning a particular nuance or way of doing things, and before he could master it, was yanked in a different direction and told the opposite.

It means most of Campbell’s time on the field is spent remembering which receivers are going where rather than concentrating on the nuances of what the defense is doing and knowing, almost as part of his muscle memory, what to do with the football the instant he diagnoses what the defense is doing. Instead Jason almost certainly has to think and remember on the field things that he should do by instinct because he has done them a million times in practice and games before.

5) How long is Jason’s leash? Right now, I think it is safe to say that most Redskin fans were impressed by Campbell in 2007. Even the notoriously pessimistic Steve Czaban of SportsTalk 980 speaks well of Campbell on his radio shows. He flashed serious ability before his injury, and though he lost some games with late interceptions, most fans recognize that young QBs do these sorts of things.

Should Jason struggle in 2008 with the new offense and playing style, how long will fans remain patient? It seems likely that most Redskin fans will be patient, but Jason has the misfortune of having been significantly outplayed by Todd Collins last year. With a veteran who fans will suspect can get it done, how long will they wait for a youngster who is not getting it done, even when a quality excuse exists?

This is not merely academic. Should the fans start turning, and the loss column grow, how long before the locker room begins whispering and wondering how much better they would be with Collins starting. Jason has only started 20 games so far despite being about to enter his 4th year in the league. 4th year QBs are expected to start producing consistently. Campbell may not be ready to do that.

Optimism

1) Most of Jason’s flaws are fixable through hard work and experience. The anticipation, delivery, accuracy, and learning of the offense are partly going to come with experience, and good coaching, but they are also going to come from hard work and repetition on Jason’s part. Last year, Al Saunders, Joe Gibbs, and pretty much everyone associated with the team singled Jason out for working his tail off during the offseason to improve. Already this offseason Bram Weinstein and Larry Michaels have mentioned how often Jason has been at and around Redskins Park either working out and rehabbing or meeting with coach Zorn. It appears that Jason understands that a key element to being a high caliber QB in the NFL will be out-working the competition in the offseason. Jim Zorn may be an ideal teacher during this process as well.

2) Jason actually has a head start on the offense for two reasons. First, Jason’s senior year at Auburn was run under a West Coast system. It also happened to be far and away Jason’s best year at Auburn. Certainly an NFL level version of the offense is going to be more intricate and more demanding, but it is an important jump start on the terminology and other changes that are coming, and the fact that he thrived in it implies that he may be a better fit that the abstract archetypes imply.

Also, Al Saunders offense, while typically referred to as coming from the Coryell tree, is almost a hybrid of the Coryell and West Coast. Saunders places a similar emphasis on rhythm and accuracy based passing, and anticipation as Zorn will. While Campbell never excelled in these areas, he has at least been drilled and preached to about them for two years. It is a less abrupt transition than going from Gibbs’ version of the Coryell all the way to a West Coast philosophy would have been. Indeed Todd Collins will probably do as much to teach Campbell as Zorn would have since Zorn will likely be busy with head coaching duties much of the time.

3) Jason has flashed some significant features of an up and coming QB. Jason showed remarkable progress from 2006 to 2007. Jason carried the sluggish Redskin offense through several early season contests while the running game struggled. He flashed the ability to rally the team late in the game to put them in position to win, even though he went on to lose a few on his own mistakes. He has shown the ability, especially in 2006 when he didn’t even know the offense, to improvise when the design of the play breaks down. He has flashed the pocket presence to know when to step up in order to help his tackles run speed rushers past him harmlessly, though he actually seemed to regress a bit in this area in 2007.

Optimism vs Pessimism

So should Redskins fans feel optimistic for having a young QB who might finally end the carousel at the sports’ most important position, or pessimism for the front office having pulled the rug out from under his development just as he was showing signs of coming on? We honestly won’t know for some time yet. Perhaps not until 2009. Personally, I am leaning towards optimism. What about you?


http://mvn.com/nfl-redskins/2008/03/16/is-jason-campbell-a-good-fit-for-the-west-coast-offense/print/

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:28 pm
by SkinsFreak
BnGhog wrote:The QB has to throw to the spot, and the route has to be ran and times right. Bump and Run throws that out of sink.


Um, I think you have the systems mixed up. Saunders system was about timing and throwing to a spot on the field. Here's what Cooley said on the subject...

Tight end Chris Cooley made the Pro Bowl last year, but he's also enthused about the possibilities of Zorn's quick-hitting scheme.

"It's an offense that I think I'll be more comfortable in," Cooley said. "I walked out of the offensive staff meeting and the last words were, 'We are going to get you the ball.' [You] gotta be excited about that. I'll have the chance more to make big plays with my legs. Our old offense was completely a timing-based offense. We were supposed to be exactly where we were supposed to be exactly when we were supposed to be there. This isn't that. It's 'get open.' "


And again, Zorn said, "I don't know if I want to say 'big' is the prerequisite..." I'm sure they'll want someone with some size, but I don't think they need a Shaquille O'Neal.

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:07 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
Give Jason more than 2 weeks in the same offense and maybe he'd show more than a flash here or there.

Get some freaking stability in this camp before players are blamed. Just my 2 cents.

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:13 pm
by SKINFAN
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Give Jason more than 2 weeks in the same offense and maybe he'd show more than a flash here or there.

Get some freaking stability in this camp before players are blamed. Just my 2 cents.


Well Said.

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:47 pm
by SkinsFreak
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Give Jason more than 2 weeks in the same offense and maybe he'd show more than a flash here or there.

Get some freaking stability in this camp before players are blamed. Just my 2 cents.


Yeah, I agree. Also, with Gibbs and Saunders, it seemed like they were in conflict over the play calling and schemes. Zorn will be the man and should provide stability on several fronts. I like what Portis had to say...

"Coach Gibbs was a great coach, but he tended to worry," Portis said. "Coach Zorn is just going to let it rip. It's going to be a more relaxed setting. There will be more opportunity to open it up and spread it out. There won't be people pulling at each other about whatever the call is going to be."

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:01 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
SkinsFreak wrote:Yeah, I agree. Also, with Gibbs and Saunders, it seemed like they were in conflict over the play calling and schemes. Zorn will be the man and should provide stability on several fronts.


Yes, I agree. That Gibbs/Saunders combo was a huge cluster of foolishness. Gibbs should have either 1. retained control 2. conceded control, you can't have it both ways.

Hopefully having one man at the helm will simplify things for Jason and the offense.

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:47 pm
by CanesSkins26
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
SkinsFreak wrote:Yeah, I agree. Also, with Gibbs and Saunders, it seemed like they were in conflict over the play calling and schemes. Zorn will be the man and should provide stability on several fronts.


Yes, I agree. That Gibbs/Saunders combo was a huge cluster of foolishness. Gibbs should have either 1. retained control 2. conceded control, you can't have it both ways.

Hopefully having one man at the helm will simplify things for Jason and the offense.


I agree. The only thing that I hope is that fans give JC some slack early on as it will likely take him some time to become acclimated/comfortable with the offense. I know that he ran a WCO well in college, but in the NFL any "new" offense is going to take some time to function properly. I think that JC will ultimately do very well in the offense as I think that Zorn will help him with his accuracy/release, but there will probably be some bumps in the road and I hope that we don't have fans calling for Todd Collins after a bad game or two from JC.

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:14 pm
by CanesSkins26
Posted at 3:06 PM ET, 03/19/2008
The New Playbook Is Taking Shape

From Jason Reid:
Coach Jim Zorn and his top offensive assistants have been busy preparing a playbook for minicamp, which begins May 2. Zorn, assistant head coach Stump Mitchell and offensive coordinator Sherman Smith are making progress on the book that will provide the foundation for the team's West Coast offense.
"We're very close for what we want to do this offseason, and then it's just a matter of extending it out to the training camp," Zorn said. "The nuts and bolts are all there. We're just making sure that the pictures [displayed in coaching meetings] match exactly what we want to communicate" to the players.
Players envision having more freedom in Zorn's version of the West Coast offense, and "the sky's the limit as far as the imagination of what plays we want to run," Zorn said. "The nuts and bolts, as far as the protections, how we want to call plays, those are pretty much in. We're hashing over that."
Concerned about overloading players early, Zorn said he had not decided how many plays he should include for minicamp.
"I'm leaning [on] my coaches," Zorn said, "to make sure I don't do too much."


http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:42 am
by BnGhog
SkinsFreak wrote:
BnGhog wrote:The QB has to throw to the spot, and the route has to be ran and times right. Bump and Run throws that out of sink.


Um, I think you have the systems mixed up. Saunders system was about timing and throwing to a spot on the field. Here's what Cooley said on the subject...

Tight end Chris Cooley made the Pro Bowl last year, but he's also enthused about the possibilities of Zorn's quick-hitting scheme.

"It's an offense that I think I'll be more comfortable in," Cooley said. "I walked out of the offensive staff meeting and the last words were, 'We are going to get you the ball.' [You] gotta be excited about that. I'll have the chance more to make big plays with my legs. Our old offense was completely a timing-based offense. We were supposed to be exactly where we were supposed to be exactly when we were supposed to be there. This isn't that. It's 'get open.' "


And again, Zorn said, "I don't know if I want to say 'big' is the prerequisite..." I'm sure they'll want someone with some size, but I don't think they need a Shaquille O'Neal.



Well maybe you're right. But to me some here take the term WCO too literal. You guys have to understand the amount of changes that has taken place between each coach that has used the so called WCO. I mean it has been changed and changed. The basic nuts and bolts are the same. But each different coach has added, removed, changed all kinds of things. Then the person under that coach, when broke off on his own, changed it more. So, Zorns offense will resemble the WCO.

There is a lot of rhythm and timing in Zorns offense as well as Saunders. Just Saunders had more of it. Here's a quote from Zorn.

"On what type of offense he will run:
"It will resemble the West Coach offense. It will try to resemble a balance attack. It will resemble taking shots when we need to take shots and it will resemble throwing rhythm passes. This whole game, I believe, is about rhythm. I don't think it is about hanging on to the ball until you see a guy already open and then go"

http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=34495

He will let Cooley find the open spots, But it won't be like that every play. I all depends on the D, it depends on what Zorn wants to do that day against that team, and at that down and yards. It's not going to be as predictable as just a simple "WCO", or a Saunders O, or a Gibbs O, He is going to take bits and peices of the different things he has seen over the years and use what he thinks will work with this group of guys.

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:48 am
by BnGhog
yupchagee wrote:
BnGhog wrote:The best way to defend the WCO is the the Bump and run.

The QB has to throw to the spot, and the route has to be ran and times right. Bump and Run throws that out of sink.

Any time we play an aggressive, hard hitting D, they can always bump Moss and ARL off route. I noticed this alot last year.

The answer... a 6'3 WR to push the DB around instead of the other way around.

Too me this is the bigest reason to add size. Sure there is the red zone threat also. But to me its more than that. Its more about being able to run things against what the D is giving you. They give you Zone, Let Moss or ARL or Cooley find the holes. The playing Bump and Run, We need the big guy on the outside.


I didn't know it was so easy to defend the WCO! Just use bump & run! It's amazing that the WCO has had any success at all.


Bump and Run is not as fun as Bump and Grind though!

No, what I said was "The best way to defend the WCO is the the Bump and run."

Not that it always worked. Duhhhh. It the best D packages always worked against the right types of offense, there would be no reason to play the game.

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:11 am
by BnGhog
CanesSkins26 wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
SkinsFreak wrote:Yeah, I agree. Also, with Gibbs and Saunders, it seemed like they were in conflict over the play calling and schemes. Zorn will be the man and should provide stability on several fronts.


Yes, I agree. That Gibbs/Saunders combo was a huge cluster of foolishness. Gibbs should have either 1. retained control 2. conceded control, you can't have it both ways.

Hopefully having one man at the helm will simplify things for Jason and the offense.


I agree. The only thing that I hope is that fans give JC some slack early on as it will likely take him some time to become acclimated/comfortable with the offense. I know that he ran a WCO well in college, but in the NFL any "new" offense is going to take some time to function properly. I think that JC will ultimately do very well in the offense as I think that Zorn will help him with his accuracy/release, but there will probably be some bumps in the road and I hope that we don't have fans calling for Todd Collins after a bad game or two from JC.


I agree that it should be better with one guy. This should help on the time it takes for JC to get the play call as well.

I hope Zorn has the time needed to spend with JC. This is his advantage is his coaching the QB. With all the extra responsibilities as head coach vs QB coach he won't have as much time.

But If we do get a glimpse as some training camp and practices, I don't think we are going to see him just standing there with the clip board the entire practice like Gibbs.

Zorn

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:16 pm
by fleetus
I would like to add something devoid of any factual basis or intellectual value (as usual :lol: )

I'll say, as a Gibbs disciple since I was 12 years old, that there is something I really like about Zorn. I don't know exactly how he will coach but I like that he's a former QB, that he could be described as an offensive and QB guru with very recent involvement in a top NFL offense, that he seems to have similar character to Joe, seems to shoot straight from the hip.

I didn't have a good feeling about Spurrier or Norv. I liked Schotty. So I don't know how it will all add up, but right now, I have a good feeling about this guy and hope we give him more than one season to do his thing.

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:22 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
I will admit that there is something about Zorny that I like... I dont know what or why.

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:45 pm
by El Mexican
Me like Zorny....

He certainly has a good vibe around him. Not the same could be said about Norv or SS. Nice guy. Hope he´s a good hc.

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:20 pm
by yupchagee
CanesSkins26 wrote:
SkinsFreak wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:Well the problem with this is that we don't have a qb that fits the traditional "West Coast" system or the wide receivers to run it. I would think/hope that Zorn would adapt his system to fit his qb and the receivers that he has.


Don't give me this crap about having the right kind of receivers. Receivers run routes and catch balls. Are you telling me that a guy who's been running fly patterns or deep outs can't run a slant or a hook pattern, and can't all of a sudden catch a football? Right. Yes, they may want to add a bigger possession receiver, but we've needed one of those guys for years. And do you have any idea what type of systems Campbell was running at Auburn?


West coast offense requires a qb to make

- quick decisions
- quickly get rid of the ball
- accurately throw the ball to his receivers

Now based on what we saw from JC this season, do these sound like attributes that JC possesses? I'm a huge JC fan (just ask Ray N Austin) and I think that he can improve his accuracy (it went up from year 1 to year 2), but I'm not sure that there is much that he can do about his slow release and he still needs to work on reading defenses quicker.

As for the receivers, they don't fit a west coast O. In the west coast you have a lot of short throws that are designed to allow the wr to gain yards after the catch. Which receivers on our roster are capable of taking a 3 yard slant and turning it into a huge gain? Which of our receivers are able to break tackles on a consistent basis?

Here is a pretty solid breakdown of the west coast offense by position. Explain to me how you see JC, Moss, and ARE fitting into this type of offense?

http://www.kffl.com/article.php/73828/488


Very few WR's break a lot of tackles. Moss & ARE are capable of avoiding would be tacklers.

Re: Zorn

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:07 pm
by PulpExposure
fleetus wrote:I would like to add something devoid of any factual basis or intellectual value (as usual :lol: )

I'll say, as a Gibbs disciple since I was 12 years old, that there is something I really like about Zorn. I don't know exactly how he will coach but I like that he's a former QB, that he could be described as an offensive and QB guru with very recent involvement in a top NFL offense, that he seems to have similar character to Joe, seems to shoot straight from the hip.

I didn't have a good feeling about Spurrier or Norv. I liked Schotty. So I don't know how it will all add up, but right now, I have a good feeling about this guy and hope we give him more than one season to do his thing.


I completely agree with you. I liked Schotty as a hire, didn't like Spurrier, detested Norv as a hire (though I understood why the last two were hired, didn't mean I had to like it).

I really like Zorn, and I wish him success; not just b/c he's the Redskins coach either.