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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:26 am
by BnGhog
It's Campbell's team. And Campbell is the future.
I agree that Collins is our best chance at winning.
But, Are we going to win the SB. This team just isnt there yet. And no one cares if we make it to the second level of the playoffs other than Skins fans. And other than Skins fans no one will remember either.
Thats why I say Campbell should play. Lets say this team does, move in strides next year to "be a contender". Just to have Campbell make his First start in the playoffs and he Chokes.
I'd rather him choke this year, and have an experience under his belt.
As for next year, I think we all agree that Jason sould be the starter. So, what can we gain by letting Collins continue in the playoffs?? Maybe one win, wwhooo hoooo. Whatever, if we don't win a SB, the next best thing is making it to the playoffs, and we would have done that. So, IMO Jason should start.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:38 am
by RedskinsFreak
The NFL Playoffs are not the classroom where you put an emphasis on learning -- they're the final exam where you are tested on what you already know.
You bring your best (and your No. 2 pencil) and you go at it. JC can get back into the educational progression at the first OTA of '08.
Collins MUST be the QB if they make it.
For the purposes of playing football in January 2008, Collins is a better QB for this team than Campbell.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:31 am
by Deadskins
BnGhog wrote:I agree that Collins is our best chance at winning.
But, Are we going to win the SB. This team just isnt there yet. And no one cares if we make it to the second level of the playoffs other than Skins fans. And other than Skins fans no one will remember either.
You never know, the Patriots have looked anything but unbeatable lately. Besides, who are the Skins playing for, if not their fans? The NFL has an unwritten rule that the Redskins must play all undefeated teams in the Super Bowl.
35 years later, we will get our perfection busting victory.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:03 pm
by RayNAustin
BnGhog wrote:It's Campbell's team. And Campbell is the future.
I agree that Collins is our best chance at winning.
But, Are we going to win the SB. This team just isnt there yet. And no one cares if we make it to the second level of the playoffs other than Skins fans. And other than Skins fans no one will remember either.
Thats why I say Campbell should play. Lets say this team does, move in strides next year to "be a contender". Just to have Campbell make his First start in the playoffs and he Chokes.
I'd rather him choke this year, and have an experience under his belt.
As for next year, I think we all agree that Jason sould be the starter. So, what can we gain by letting Collins continue in the playoffs?? Maybe one win, wwhooo hoooo. Whatever, if we don't win a SB, the next best thing is making it to the playoffs, and we would have done that. So, IMO Jason should start.
First, this is NOT Campbell's team, unless I missed the big news about Synder deciding to sell. And we all don't agree that Jason should be the starter...at least I don't.
The starting QB for any team, including the Redskins must be the guy who gives the team the best chance to win now....and not some off into the future scenario that no one could possibly predict.
The decision to go with Campbell last year was a good decision because we needed to see what we had going into 2007. Now we know what we have. We have a young QB that has lots of potential that has not yet translated into actual results. Keep in mind that prior to Campbell's injury, he was on a 0-4 losing streak in which he made numerous mistakes, including terrible game ending int's while we were in good position for wins. Better decisions on his part would have already had us in the playoffs without having to beat the Cowboys this Sunday. So he comes out, and TC comes in and wins three tough games in a row, with two of them away games...has a 107 QB rating (compared to Campbell's 77) and is averaging 7 points more per game, and you think he should be replaced? Because you THINK we aren't going to the Super Bowl is a good reason to not try to win now? Personally, I'd rather win this year, and not worry about what might or might not happen next year.
Frankly I see no reason to believe the Redskins have such a hopeless chance at going all the way THIS YEAR. Who's in the way? Dallas? Green Bay? We've played both teams, and should have won both games losing by 3 to GB, and by 5 to Dallas.
In the GB game we failed to score in the 2nd half. We could blame that loss on Moss's fumble returned for a TD, but the fact is, scoring 14 points isn't going to win many games, especially against the Packers. And this has been a reoccurring theme with this offense all year....failing to score TD's and settling for FG's.
In the Cowboys loss, JC played well most of the game, but JC made three critical mistakes that did just as much to lose the game as did TO's 4 TD catches. The first was a fumble in Dallas territory. The second was on 2nd down and 9 from the Dallas 11, an intentional grounding penalty, a 10 yarder and loss of down making it 3rd and 19 from the 21, forcing a FG instead of a TD. The third came as an int inside the Dallas 20 while driving for the winning score.
Better QB play this year would likely have the Redskins sitting at 12-3 or 13-2 right now. To me, that qualifies us as contenders, and reason for believing that if we play the right personnel, and play well, we have a very reasonable chance to go deep into the playoffs and a chance to play the Cowboys for the NFC title. To me that is reason enough to let Collins continue to do what he is doing, which is playing much better than Campbell and winning games.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:46 pm
by Steve Spurrier III
BnGhog wrote:I agree that Collins is our best chance at winning.
But, Are we going to win the SB.
Probably not, but you'd sacrifice a chance to find out for Campbell's development? I can't even fathom that a Redskin fan would willingly field an inferior team in the NFL Playoffs, especially considering how few and far between playoff appearances have been. Wow.
On another note, here is an illustration of just how good Collins has been (or how bad our team has been recently, if you're a glass-half-empty kind of guy). I've listed every quarterback who has played three straight games for us since 1999, and organized their best three-game performance by quarterback rating:
Code: Select all
Johnson 119.5 W02-04.1999 WWW
Brunell 108.2 W05-07.2005 LLW
Collins 107.0 W14-16.2007 WWW
Banks 104.5 W05-07.2001 LWW
George 101.2 W12-14.2000 WLL
Ramsey 89.8 W13-15.2004 WLW
Campbell 87.7 W15-17.2006 WLL
Matthews 84.4 W01-03.2002 WLL
Wuerffel 81.0 W12-14.2002 WLL
Hasselbeck 74.2 W12-14.2003 LLW
Pretty sweet, especially considering the difficulty of opponents - and he's the only guy since Brad Johnson to turn in his three-game stretch while the team went 3-0. I may check later, but I'd be shocked if Collins didn't have one of the better first three games in franchise history.
And what do the first two (soon to be three, God willing) have in common?
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:08 pm
by BnGhog
RayNAustin wrote:
First, this is NOT Campbell's team, unless I missed the big news about Synder deciding to sell. And we all don't agree that Jason should be the starter...at least I don't.
Wow. Yep, thats exactly what I ment. Didn't you hear, Campbell made so much money this year that he bought the team from Synder.
RayNAustin wrote:
Personally, I'd rather win this year, and not worry about what might or might not happen next year.
That sounds just like Snyder! Isn't that what we have been doing for the last 10 years or something? Isn't that why we've had like 2 draft pick each year? That win NOW thinking. Sure, it's been working all a long why change that, and think about the future.
RayNAustin wrote:
Frankly I see no reason to believe the Redskins have such a hopeless chance at going all the way THIS YEAR. Who's in the way? Dallas? Green Bay? We've played both teams, and should have won both games losing by 3 to GB, and by 5 to Dallas.
It is possible we can make it to the SB. But, the chances are slim. And what if we do make it there? Do you think just by the play Collins has broght to the table, that we can beat the Patriots or Indy or whoever ends up in the SB???
Just look at whats happend to almost every team that Loses the SB. Look at last years Bears. They LOST the SB, whats their record this year?
You don't have to agree with me. That's MO, we have been doing that WIN NOW crap for a long time and it don't work. And if by some chance it does work for once, great. But IMO, Id rather have a dynasty than a Flook SB appearence (and loss) once in 10 years.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:43 pm
by welch
Start Collins this year. Campbell has a dislocated knee. That doesn't heal by anything except time.
Come next Spring, Campbell needs to spot his receivers as quickly as Collins, and release the ball as quickly. He'll learn, and he can learn in games. Just not when he's recovering from a bad knee injury.
This year? Nobody but Collins. True enough: Collins understands the Saunders offense and the NFL so well that the Skins would probably have won an extra pair of games this year. That's done and gone.
What matters...all that matters...is beating Dallas at FedEx on Sunday.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:43 pm
by SkinsJock
BnGhog wrote:It's Campbell's team. And Campbell is the future.
I agree that Collins is our best chance at winning.
Let's just say that Gibbs agrees with both these assessments - I would be very surprised if he (or any NFL coach) would not use the players that give his team the best chance at success
But, Are we going to win the SB. This team just isnt there yet.
How do you know this? I think that any coach plays each and every game with an intent to win that game - no coach in the NFL uses players except to achieve his goal for that moment.
Last year a pretty bad Miami team went up to Chicago to face a very good Bears' defence and managed to beat the team that the NFC sent to the Super Bowl. This year Miami ended its streak against a defensive group that gave NE fits - any given Sunday!
And no one cares if we make it to the second level of the playoffs other than Skins fans. And other than Skins fans no one will remember either.
this is just such a ridiculous position - you really did not mean this, Im sure - This is so far off base, I am not going to address it!
That's why I say Campbell should play. Lets say this team does, move in strides next year to "be a contender". Just to have Campbell make his First start in the playoffs and he Chokes.
I'd rather him choke this year, and have an experience under his belt.
As for next year, I think we all agree that Jason sould be the starter. So, what can we gain by letting Collins continue in the playoffs?? Maybe one win, wwhooo hoooo. Whatever, if we don't win a SB, the next best thing is making it to the playoffs, and we would have done that. So, IMO Jason should start.
Gibbs will always put the players on the field, each and every time that in his estimation give him the best chance to win that game - Campbell has now seen what we all have seen - the game plan works - Campbell will get a chance to show that this "opportunity" that was given to Collins is a lesson in how to manage the offensive game plan.
Campbell better get his reads and his timings down or he will be backing up Collins and we will be looking for our future "great" QB elsewhere - because if he cannot handle the position after this wake-up call then he never will and Gibbs will not wait!
I am amazed at the fact that Collins is doing what he is doing as anyone BUT I also want Campbell to do this or get out of the way - we have to play whoever gives us the best chance to win and whoever makes the other players around him better - right now, at QB, that is Collins
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:55 pm
by SkinsJock
BnGhog wrote:..It is possible we can make it to the SB. But, the chances are slim. And what if we do make it there? Do you think just by the play Collins has broght to the table, that we can beat the Patriots or Indy or whoever ends up in the SB???
Just look at whats happend to almost every team that Loses the SB. Look at last years Bears. They LOST the SB, whats their record this year?
You don't have to agree with me. That's MO, we have been doing that WIN NOW crap for a long time and it don't work. And if by some chance it does work for once, great. But IMO, Id rather have a dynasty than a Flook SB appearence (and loss) once in 10 years.
No matter how "slim" you play the game to win - the only game you play and the most important game to focus on is the next game.
When did giving everything you've got to win this year become ""WIN NOW" in a negative context - you always play the next game to win
Any appearance in a Super Bowl is not a "flook" OR a fluke!
How can anyone approach a game thinking I'd rather not play because of what will happen if we lose?
How do you strive to win at all costs with the thought that if we play in the Super Bowl then that means that next year we will be a bad football team?
get real
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:03 pm
by welch
Just a small opinion, but I'd be thrilled to beat Dallas.
Why are we talking about various rounds in the playoffs? Or the Super Bowl?
Yes, it will be a triumph to beat Dallas and go to the playoffs. Period.
Quoting Oxon Hill Dave, back in 1984, "I bet there are young fans who think the Redskins are destined to win every Super Bowl. They must think that a winning season is automatic just because the team has done well since George Allen took over. Amazing!"
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:51 pm
by chiefhog44
First off, we have to win this weekend for any of this to matter, and this Dallas team is coming to play. If we are fortunate enough to win my question was, what QB do we play in the playoffs.
I haven't heard this argument yet. What IF we play Campbell, as many have suggested, and he loses the game? How are the players going to look at that? His teamates are going to think..."man, what if Collins kept on starting? We may have been able to go all the way, or at least further than one and done." Now think of that mentality and it's effect on Campbell's long term growth, and his ego. I would say the damage would be permanent.
If you leave him as #2 you explain it as Campbell is still recovering from his knee and we want him to be healthy to START next year...which is true. This would not be damaging to his progress.
Then if Collins really screws the pooch in the playoffs, replace him with JC during the game.
We have to win this game though. I started this thread with a hesitancy of getting ahead of ourselves.[/img]
Re: What do we do about our starting QB???
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:57 pm
by SkinFan63
chiefhog44 wrote:If we win against Dallas...Who's staring in the playoffs?
Reports say Campbell is a week away.
My vote is for Collins. We should put Campbell on IR. Starting him in the playoffs after this run could be devistating if he loses
Collins starts period. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Collins is HOT and until he chokes or gets injured, he's the starter.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:18 pm
by RayNAustin
BnGhog wrote:It is possible we can make it to the SB. But, the chances are slim. And what if we do make it there? Do you think just by the play Collins has broght to the table, that we can beat the Patriots or Indy or whoever ends up in the SB???
First, I don't agree the chances are slim. We are 4 games away against teams we CAN beat. Certainly the home teams have an advantage, and the Redskins would have to win all of them on the road, but it's not like we have to beat the Pats twice and the Colts twice to get there. We've got Dallas, Seattle, Green Bay, and then likely Dallas again.
Secondly, I'd say Collins couldn't do any worse against the Pats than the futile effort we put up earlier this year....shut out except for a junk TD at the end. And the Eagles darn near beat the Pats a couple of weeks ago, so yes, anyone CAN beat anyone on any given day.
And anything can happen. What if Brady gets injured in AFC Championship game, and Matt Cassel has to play the Superbowl? You think the Pats are that great they can just start their backup and win easily?
BnGhog wrote:Just look at whats happend to almost every team that Loses the SB. Look at last years Bears. They LOST the SB, whats their record this year?
Hahahaha. OK, you got me on this. Attention Redskin fans, the Redskins will no longer pursue the playoffs and a trip to the Super Bowl until Tom Brady and Peyton Manning either retire or the Patriots and Colts planes crash, giving the Redskins a reasonable chance to win the big game. BRILLIANT. Why didn't I think of this plan?
BnGhog wrote:You don't have to agree with me. That's MO, we have been doing that WIN NOW crap for a long time and it don't work. And if by some chance it does work for once, great. But IMO, Id rather have a dynasty than a Flook SB appearence (and loss) once in 10 years.
Thanks, I won't. And we haven't been doing that win now crap for 10 years. We've been doing the lose too much crap for 10 years and we're all tired of it....except you I suppose who believes losing now will somehow equate to becoming a dynasty next year, or is that the year after next?
And there is no such thing as making it to the Super Bowl as a fluke. Besides, look at SD...they didn't make it to the Super Bowl last year, and look what happened to them this year. Look at Baltimore.....13-3 last year.....this year. They've lost 9 in a row, and looking like 10 in a row after this weekend. According to your logic, they are the next dynasty in the making.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:41 pm
by Fios
Hey, fellas, please keep this civil
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:43 pm
by nnskinsfan
I think we definitely look better with Collins in there. Our offense looks pretty good, actually, for a change. Even if we make the playoffs and do well in the playoffs though, I still think JC should be the focus next year. That kind of seems unfair to Collins (if he should continue doing well this year) but at his age, I don't think the team should invest much more in him other than being a capable backup. One thing for sure, if it continues this way, it does put a lot of pressure on JC. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing though. How long until it becomes a matter of booing at every JC incompletion (next year)...for example? I hope JC has a thick-skin...
So anyway, I hope Collins keeps the offense rolling this year but I hope JC starts next year.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:46 pm
by Snout
BnGhog wrote:It's Campbell's team. And Campbell is the future.
I agree that Collins is our best chance at winning.
But, Are we going to win the SB. This team just isnt there yet. And no one cares if we make it to the second level of the playoffs other than Skins fans. And other than Skins fans no one will remember either.
Thats why I say Campbell should play. Lets say this team does, move in strides next year to "be a contender". Just to have Campbell make his First start in the playoffs and he Chokes.
I'd rather him choke this year, and have an experience under his belt.
No offense BnGhog, but I think this is a warped mentality. It's understandable after 15 years of Redskins mediocrity, but it is still warped. Winning begets more winning. Losing begets more losing. If we are winning now, if we can get into the playoffs now, we have to go with what works now. As long as the team is still in the hunt, the only future we should be thinking about is winning the next game -- not how to lose it in a way that gives our quarterback of the future a taste of losing. We can start worrying about the distant future starting in February.
Hail Redskins.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:08 pm
by Deadskins
And Gibbs obviously prefers a veteran behind center for big games. He pulled Shroeder before the '88 playoffs in favor of Doug Williams. When it gets to crunch time, he wants the steady hand of experience at the wheel.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:14 pm
by Redskin in Canada
welch wrote:It is not a question of who has a cannon for an arm. It is a question of who can play better QB in the Saunders offense in the NFL right now.
Todd Collins, without a shadow of a doubt.
Learn Jason, LEARN to manage a game. Learn Jason, LEARN to deliver the ball quickly. Learn Jason, LEARN the Al Saunders system and throw to your receivers in full stride. LEARN.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:19 pm
by The Hogster
Collins deserves to keep playing...no doubt.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:20 pm
by CanesSkins26
Let's just say that Gibbs agrees with both these assessments - I would be very surprised if he (or any NFL coach) would not use the players that give his team the best chance at success Shocked
Actually it happens quite frequently, especially when it involves qb's. How else do you bring along a young player? Keeping in mind the big picture, teams will sometimes play young players over established veterans in order to build for the future. One example is the Kitna/Palmer situation from 2004. In 03 Kitna had an excellent season (26 td's, 3591 yards), but in 2004 the Bengals started Palmer because of his upside and the need to get him experience. In the short term it didn't give them the best opportunity to win but in the long term it did.
If Collins plays well against the Dallas then yes he should start in the playoffs, but next season JC should be the starter. He has tremendous tools and a ton of upside and starting Collins next season would be the type of short-sighted move that has plagued this franchise for the past 10-15 years.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:38 pm
by Deadskins
CanesSkins26 wrote:Actually it happens quite frequently, especially when it involves qb's. How else do you bring along a young player? Keeping in mind the big picture, teams will sometimes play young players over established veterans in order to build for the future. One example is the Kitna/Palmer situation from 2004. In 03 Kitna had an excellent season (26 td's, 3591 yards), but in 2004 the Bengals started Palmer because of his upside and the need to get him experience. In the short term it didn't give them the best opportunity to win but in the long term it did.
It may happen at the start of, or even later in a season, if the team is out of it already (see Redskins '06) but not come playoff time. Then the veterans get the nod over the younger guys.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:48 pm
by CanesSkins26
Redskin in Canada wrote:welch wrote:It is not a question of who has a cannon for an arm. It is a question of who can play better QB in the Saunders offense in the NFL right now.
Todd Collins, without a shadow of a doubt.
Learn Jason, LEARN to manage a game. Learn Jason, LEARN to deliver the ball quickly. Learn Jason, LEARN the Al Saunders system and throw to your receivers in full stride. LEARN.
The only way that he is going to LEARN those things is by playing. Even with Collins' success JC has to be the starter next season.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:55 pm
by Deadskins
CanesSkins26 wrote:Redskin in Canada wrote:welch wrote:It is not a question of who has a cannon for an arm. It is a question of who can play better QB in the Saunders offense in the NFL right now.
Todd Collins, without a shadow of a doubt.
Learn Jason, LEARN to manage a game. Learn Jason, LEARN to deliver the ball quickly. Learn Jason, LEARN the Al Saunders system and throw to your receivers in full stride. LEARN.
The only way that he is going to LEARN those things is by playing. Even with Collins' success JC has to be the starter next season.
I disagree with your first sentence, otherwise JC would have nothing to learn from TC. I agree wholeheartedly with your second sentence, though.
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:43 am
by RayNAustin
CanesSkins26 wrote:Redskin in Canada wrote:welch wrote:It is not a question of who has a cannon for an arm. It is a question of who can play better QB in the Saunders offense in the NFL right now.
Todd Collins, without a shadow of a doubt.
Learn Jason, LEARN to manage a game. Learn Jason, LEARN to deliver the ball quickly. Learn Jason, LEARN the Al Saunders system and throw to your receivers in full stride. LEARN.
The only way that he is going to LEARN those things is by playing. Even with Collins' success JC has to be the starter next season.
Why must he be the starter next year? And why is it that he can only learn through playing? Collins didn't learn that way. Just in case you don't know, Collins has started exactly 2 games in Saunders offensive system....the past two games. Prior to this year, Collins had very limited play time in Saunders offense in KC....13 games, 27 total pass attempts over the past 9 years in KC. Contrast that to Jason's 20 games, and 624 pass attempts, and it looks like JC has a WHOLE LOT MORE playing experience than Collins. In fact, JC has more starts, more snaps, more time, and more passing attempts over the past 2 years as Collins has had throughout his entire career.
When you look at it realistically, one might see that perhaps Collins is just a better QB, and the better player deserves to play...this year, next year, every year.
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:17 am
by brad7686
i still think it is a bogus assertion that just because Collins did good against two of the lowest tier pass d's in the league that he has had a better year than campbell. The skins are going to face some much tighter coverage in the playoffs, and if campbell is healthy im not so sure i wouldn't have him in there even though he is probably slightly more likely to cause a turnover. I know he can make the tight throws, he has been doing it all season against often very stiff competition. The main thing i see from collins is that moss doesn't drop the ball when collins throws it as opposed to when campbell throws it. I don't think its going to be too tough a decision though because the man dislocated his knee cap and i think he will sit for that reason.