The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Posted: **Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:58 pm**

Well, your going to find unintelligent people in all facets of our society, and the enlisted ranks are no exception.

What is this supposed to mean? That since most troops disagree with you, and think that Kerry is an opportunistic buffoon, that they are stupid? So, your stance is what? That Kerry's slander of our troops is correct?

The cold fact is that the US military has an average educational achievement far higher than the average of the US in general, whether enlisted, non-commissioned officer, warrant officer or officer. They are not only better educated than the average American, they are the best educated military in the history of the world, despite the "concerns" of the junior "Senator" from Massachussets.

You may not like this fact, but you'll get used to it.

Hope you enjoyed your Veteran's Day.

You're welcome.

Posted: **Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:11 am**

Countertrey wrote:
What is this supposed to mean? That since most troops disagree with you, and think that Kerry is an opportunistic buffoon, that they are stupid? So, your stance is what? That Kerry's slander of our troops is correct?

The cold fact is that the US military has an average educational achievement far higher than the average of the US in general, whether enlisted, non-commissioned officer, warrant officer or officer. They are not only better educated than the average American, they are the best educated military in the history of the world, despite the "concerns" of the junior "Senator" from Massachussets.

You may not like this fact, but you'll get used to it.

Hope you enjoyed your Veteran's Day.

You're welcome.

Posted: **Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:21 am**

"That since most troops disagree with you, and think that Kerry is an opportunistic buffoon, that they are stupid?"

Most troops don't believe this. But yea, I think those that most of those that do are either stupid and/or gulible. Not all, but most. That's my own judgement.

"they are the best educated military in the history of the world,"

Yea? Could you show me some statistics for this? Got any link? Better than Sweden, for instance? Show me the data.

That Linndey England was pretty bright, huh? No, sorry, there is and have always been a lot of folks in the military (enlisted, primarily) that are dumber than door knobs.

Posted: **Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:32 am**

Countertrey wrote:The military gets it. Why don't you?

Maybe because I can think for myself, and look at this with reason and perspective.

Why is it that you and TP never use the quote button? You simply quote without crediting the author. And if you are quoting several different posters, it reads as if you are trying to put words into people's mouths.

Posted: **Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:50 pm**

0421kidwell wrote:I consider my self a Regan-Democrat. I am democrat, but i also loved regan. I however do not like Bush either of them, or do I like clinton. I am tired of Clinton and Bush! I am voting for Barack Obama!

However John Kerry is the biggest piece of trash i have ever seen. I know for a fact that Kerry is not welcome in Iraq!! his latest remarks make me sick!

" WASHINGTON - The White House accused Sen. John Kerry on Tuesday of troop-bashing, seizing on a comment the Democrat made to California students that those unable to navigate the country’s education system “get stuck in Iraq.”

This pisses me off because i came in the military because i wanted to go to college and i couldn't afford it! The Gi Bill has helped me, the military has helped me become the person i am today. In the US Army i earned and recieved a BA IN History from Excelsior College and I am currently working on my Masters from UMUC! I came in the military before 9/11 a month before. I didn't know that war was going to happen. I still served in Iraq because of honor and a sense of duty!! We protect this nation so ASS HOLES like Kerry can run free and say what ever they want. I am not a Bush supporter however i support my brothers in Arms!! I guess West Point graduates, and Airforce grads, and the Naval grads, and the Coast guard grads, are stupid? Just because we did not discrace the uniform like kerry did, doesn't mean that we are dumb! I tend to believe that the members of the military and Vets are the bravest people and smartest people in this country! We owe them everything, because they fight, like I did because others can't. We fight to help humanity and fight for people who cannot defend themselves. Kerry spits in the eyes of all of the military as well as those who have served, retired or passed away! Hey Kerry go tell Colin Powell or Genral CASEY or a 1SG OR CSM that they are dumb. Mr. Kerry we serve in Iraq because we have honor! 9/11 MY GENERATION ANSWERED THE CALL, I GUESS NEXT TIME THE TERRORISTS CAN COME AND KNOCK ON YOUR DOOR, MR. KERRY. THE PROBLEM IS WE WOULD STILL HELP OUT HIS PUNK ASS!

Spc Joseph Kidwell jr
US ARMY (VET)!!!

GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!

Kidwell. Kerry made no remarks about troops in that speech. He was talking about Bush failing to study the situation and not working hard in school and therefore getting US stuck in Iraq because of his ignorance.
Those who want to hate Kerry have the perfect right to do so, but to say that he demeaned the troops is not only not true, it is also libel.

Posted: **Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:11 pm**

crazyhorse1 your knowledge of libel law is, not surprisingly, lacking, one must work very hard to meet the malice standard necessary to libel a public figure, epsecially when one is relying on factual statements made (intentionally or not) by said figure. Also I note that you conveniently omit the important distinction between what Kerry intended to say and what he actually said. Note I'm not accusing Kerry of troop bashing but he did stick his foot directly in his mouth.

Posted: **Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:13 pm**

ATV wrote:"That since most troops disagree with you, and think that Kerry is an opportunistic buffoon, that they are stupid?"

Most troops don't believe this. But yea, I think those that most of those that do are either stupid and/or gulible. Not all, but most. That's my own judgement.

"they are the best educated military in the history of the world,"

Yea? Could you show me some statistics for this? Got any link? Better than Sweden, for instance? Show me the data.

That Linndey England was pretty bright, huh? No, sorry, there is and have always been a lot of folks in the military (enlisted, primarily) that are dumber than door knobs.

I get it. Anyone who disagrees with ATV is stupid. :roll:

How about you lay out in this thread how you know there are "lots of folks in the military that are dumber than door knobs"?

Posted: **Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:15 pm**

Most troops don't believe this.

Well, my information is anectdotal, but it is factual. I do not know a single serving soldier sailor or Marine who believes that Kerry possesses much in the way of virtue. And, it probably would not be a stretch to state that my knowledge of the serving military is far superior to yours.

You, however, continue to have the opportunity to believe as you'd like, as pollsters do not approach the serving military for such opinions.

Kerry is not held in esteem within the armed services. We know him for what he is... an opportunistic buffoon, who happens to also be a combat veteran who treated with the enemy while a serving officer during time of war. That, sir, is documented fact, not spin, not conjecture, not fabrication.

Posted: **Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:07 pm**

Fios wrote:crazyhorse1 your knowledge of libel law is, not surprisingly, lacking, one must work very hard to meet the malice standard necessary to libel a public figure, epsecially when one is relying on factual statements made (intentionally or not) by said figure. Also I note that you conveniently omit the important distinction between what Kerry intended to say and what he actually said. Note I'm not accusing Kerry of troop bashing but he did stick his foot directly in his mouth.

The New Times printed the speech taken directly from the manuscript. The fact that Kerry was speaking of Bush, not of our soldiers, is widely known. Why don't you stick up for the truth, since you know it? I believe that the people who are yelling the loudest about Kerry's supposed slander of our troops know full well that Kerry is innocent as charged and are attacking with utter malice in an attempt to destroy his career. That is libel. Kerry intended to say that Bush didn't study and therefore he got us stuck in Irag. What Kerry said was that if you don't study hard you'll get stuck in Iraq. He blundered, leaving out the word US.
He's guilty of a stupid mistake, not demeaning our soldiers.
So, he's an idiot. We knew that already. George Bush is an idiot. We know that too and also know he makes twenty errors for every one that Kerry
makes.

Posted: **Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:21 pm**

Countertrey wrote:
Most troops don't believe this.

Well, my information is anectdotal, but it is factual. I do not know a single serving soldier sailor or Marine who believes that Kerry possesses much in the way of virtue. And, it probably would not be a stretch to state that my knowledge of the serving military is far superior to yours.

You, however, continue to have the opportunity to believe as you'd like, as pollsters do not approach the serving military for such opinions.

Kerry is not held in esteem within the armed services. We know him for what he is... an opportunistic buffoon, who happens to also be a combat veteran who treated with the enemy while a serving officer during time of war. That, sir, is documented fact, not spin, not conjecture, not fabrication.

Kerry did not treat with the enemy. He represented a group of American soldiers who wanted to tell congress of their war crimes because they regretted them and wanted to stop future war crimes. I am not defending him in relation to his being an opportunist or a buffoon; I am saying simply and accurately that he spoke of behalf of Americans soldiers, not the enemy. To say that he treated with the enemy is spin. I was in Washington when Kerry testified. I remember it very well.

I also remember my first visit to the wall and remember finding the names of many of my friends on it-- all dead for no good reason. Think of it. Sixty thousand Americans dead because of lies to the American people by the administrations of two Democratic presidents and one Republican.

Posted: **Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:40 pm**

crazyhorse1 wrote:
Countertrey wrote:
Most troops don't believe this.

Well, my information is anectdotal, but it is factual. I do not know a single serving soldier sailor or Marine who believes that Kerry possesses much in the way of virtue. And, it probably would not be a stretch to state that my knowledge of the serving military is far superior to yours.

You, however, continue to have the opportunity to believe as you'd like, as pollsters do not approach the serving military for such opinions.

Kerry is not held in esteem within the armed services. We know him for what he is... an opportunistic buffoon, who happens to also be a combat veteran who treated with the enemy while a serving officer during time of war. That, sir, is documented fact, not spin, not conjecture, not fabrication.

Kerry did not treat with the enemy. He represented a group of American soldiers who wanted to tell congress of their war crimes because they regretted them and wanted to stop future war crimes. I am not defending him in relation to his being an opportunist or a buffoon; I am saying simply and accurately that he spoke on behalf of Americans soldiers, not the enemy. To say that he treated with the enemy is spin. I was in Washington when Kerry testified. I remember it very well.

I also remember my first visit to the wall and remember finding the names of many of my friends on it-- all dead for no good reason. Think of it. Sixty thousand Americans dead because of lies to the American people by the administrations of two Democratic presidents and one Republican. Your presume too much when you presume to speak for American soldiers who participated in the war in Nam and the present obscenity. There were plenty of military folk around in the sixties who hated Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon and openly thought the war itself to be a war crime, just as there are now.

I was at a party in Richmond once where one of my ex-military buddies joked about shooting a farmer from a helicopter just for fun. No one laughed or said anything. Everyone left early, even some of the guys who were still calling the "enemy" "gooks."

My friend. This war is flat out wrong, as was Nam; and both Nam and Iraq have seen American soldiers committ war crimes. When soldiers are asked to fight a BS war for the sake of something unholy, they tend to go a little nuts. No point in hating Kerry for speaking the truth. He was just the messenger.

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:48 am**

I get it. Anyone who disagrees with ATV is stupid.

No. You, too, have quite a way with changing the subject. What the hell, am I back in middle school? What sort of argument is that?

When I say most of these people are dumb and/or gullible I mean it. The Republican party and this criminal administration have made victims of much of the nation. They've preyed on the ignorant with fear and by hijacking notions like "Patrotism" and "Freedom". If you already have no idea what I'm talking about then I'm wasting my time and, yep - I'm sorry, but I believe you, too, are quite stupid.

How about you lay out in this thread how you know there are "lots of folks in the military that are dumber than door knobs"?

Well, I personally know some real ignoramuses that have enlisted in the military. All things considered, this is often a wise choice in life for many people to make, because most of these people simply don't have as many opportunities as other people. It's not their fault - I also believe that most of these people aren't inherently stupid, or somehow retarded, they've just been raised in a household (or trailer) that is intellectually lazy. I feel sorry for a lot of these people - even though it's hard to when they hold up a sign condemning the mispoken words of one of our military heroes.

I do not know a single serving soldier sailor or Marine who believes that Kerry possesses much in the way of virtue.

Here's one. This took me a total of three and one-half seconds to find....

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/ ... 7031.shtml

We know him for what he is... an opportunistic buffoon, who happens to also be a combat veteran who treated with the enemy while a serving officer during time of war. That, sir, is documented fact, not spin, not conjecture, not fabrication.

100% pure misinformation, spin, conjecture and fabrication.

What? No more out-of-context pasted quotes from John Kerry when he was subpeonad before Congress? Wha happen?

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:05 pm**

ATV wrote:
I get it. Anyone who disagrees with ATV is stupid.

No. You, too, have quite a way with changing the subject. What the hell, am I back in middle school? What sort of argument is that?

When I say most of these people are dumb and/or gullible I mean it. The Republican party and this criminal administration have made victims of much of the nation. They've preyed on the ignorant with fear and by hijacking notions like "Patrotism" and "Freedom". If you already have no idea what I'm talking about then I'm wasting my time and, yep - I'm sorry, but I believe you, too, are quite stupid.

And I think that you too, just violated the "attack the post, not the poster rule" and in doing so, proved my original point. You think I am stupid because you think that I disagree with you.

I know you mean that you think most armed forces personnel are stupid, because you have said so multiple times. That being said, you say they are stupid because they fall for things that you believe to be untrue, which is exactly what I said. You think they are stupid because they disagree with you.

I'll leave it at that, because I have no use for people who sit on their couches in Illinois and denegrate people in harms way serving their country, whether you believe in how they are serving their country or not.

After reading your posts, I can't comment on your personal intelligence, but your posts come across as arrogant and condesending, and therefore unworthy of any further response outside of talking smack.

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:43 pm**

You think I am stupid because you think that I disagree with you.

When did I call you stupid? I'll have to assume that you aren't familar with how the Republicans prey on the ignorant with fear and by hijacking notions like "Patrotism" and "Freedom" then. I'd say that's a safe assumption. Also, regarding your "attack the post, not the poster rule" - Is there a difference between calling someone stupid, as in nanny-nanny-boo-boo, and me telling you that I believe you are stupid? In this context my intention is not to be condescending, I'm just honestly sharing my opinion.

I know you mean that you think most armed forces personnel are stupid

I never wrote this.

You think they are stupid because they disagree with you.

I've already tried to concisely demonstrate why I believe many in the military, and in this nation, are stupid. I also believe there are plenty of very intelligent people who disagree with me, for what it's worth.

I have no use for people who sit on their couches in Illinois and denegrate people in harms way serving their country

Yea? Well I have no use for people who sit on their couches in Virgina and lamely defend their position by wrapping themselves in the flag and claiming to speak on behalf of our soldiers. :puke:

your posts come across as arrogant and condesending, and therefore unworthy of any further response outside of talking smack.

I certainly wouldn't mind if you have no further response, but I apologize for my tone, for both now and in my future posts - I'm more than fed up with how your society has been corrupted, and I can't afford myself to not pull any punches.

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:58 pm**

JansenFan wrote:[quote="ATV I'm wasting my time and, yep - I'm sorry, but I believe you, too, are quite stupid.

That would be the place you called me stupid.

As for "speaking for the soldiers" I am a former Marine, and a such, I have known and currently know a lot of people in our armed forces, so while I can't speak for everyone in the armed forces, and can speak for a lot of people in the armed forces that I know personally or have worked with throughout my time in the service.

I don't really care what your position is, or whether or not you have to pull any punches, but I WILL NOT stand for general insults about my fellow members of the armed forces.

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:25 pm**

That would be the place you called me stupid

You left out my qualification. What I wrote was "They've preyed on the ignorant with fear and by hijacking notions like "Patrotism" and "Freedom". If you already have no idea what I'm talking about then I'm wasting my time and, yep - I'm sorry, but I believe you, too, are quite stupid."

So, yes, I may (I never really recieved any sort of reply to this) honestly believe you are stupid. Does this qualify for me "calling" you stupid? Who cares. Talk about changing the subject.

I have known and currently know a lot of people in our armed forces, so while I can't speak for everyone in the armed forces.

Look, I don't doubt your sincerity. What you're speaking of is a genuine problem (though I myself wouldn't make it a blanket characterization) - That many well intentioned servicemen instead put their faith in a president that skirted Vietnam by joining (and then skipping) the National Guard and a Vice President who "had other priorities" than serving. For me, it's mind boggling. There are reasons for this, beyond whether Kerry supposedly turned his back on our troops - There's been an orchestrated assault against his credibility, and many servicemen HAVE fallen for it, hook line and sinker. There are reasons for this, too, which brings me back to this original argument.

but I WILL NOT stand for general insults about my fellow members of the armed forces.

I will NOT stand for general insults about our American war heroes.

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:29 pm**

I;ve read your post, and I have no idea what it is you are trying to say. I made no statement about Kerry's service, only of your insistence that servicemen and women are stupid. You, my friend, are the person trying to change the subject.

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:45 pm**

I made no statement about Kerry's service, only of your insistence that servicemen and women are stupid.

Oh, right. I was confusing you with CounterTrey.

I have no idea what it is you are trying to say....You, my friend, are the person trying to change the subject.

LOL, sure, please see the title of this thread - "John Kerry is the worst American ever!!"

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:32 pm**

John Kerry enlisted - evidence of patriotism. He fought - evidence of sense of duty. He shot Viet Cong in the back - evidnece of abilty to decide when the CHIPS ARE DOWN. He saved boat mates with bullets flying around him - evidence of loyalty and bravery.

None of this is disputed by anyone EXCEPT the last one which was disputed by some other swift boat veterans (self-proclaimed "for truth").

After these events Kerry had an insight about the war. He decided it was wrong. He spoke about it - publically.

Honestly telling what happened is not denigrating. Performing the acts he described is denigrating.

I am a vet who respects Kerry. There are things I don't like about him but imforming the public of facts that maybe the public doesn't want to hear is not denigration. Committting the acts is denigrating.

George Bush jumped past 100,000 people to get into the guard. His service record with the guard is shaky and is missing a lot of documentation. No one (not even Sean Hannity) disputes these facts. Congress made the mistake of giving him authority he should not have been given. There was never a yes or no vote before Congress to invade Iraq.

I do not respect George Bush. He and Cheney talk about "having the stomach" to finish the job in Iraq. Where were their stomachs 40 years ago? Digesting food from a silver spoon. Heck, when Cheney found out he needed a kid to get another deferment his wife dropped one exactly 9 months later! That's one well educated brave guy with an iron stomach I tell ya!!

Here's some denigration for you:

Rumsfeld: "As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time."

DarthMonk

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:53 pm**

Countertrey wrote:Kerry's quote from his speech of late October:
"You know, education, if you make the most of it, if you study hard and do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq

Out of context? A joke gone awry? Believe what you want, but the words that came from Kerry's mouth were far from anything anything new...

Kerry's comments during his run for Congress, in 1972:
"I am convinced a volunteer army would be an army of the poor and the black and the brown," Kerry wrote. "We must not repeat the travesty of the inequities present during Vietnam. I also fear having a professional army that views the perpetuation of war crimes as simply 'doing its job.'

Context? What about that "apology". It was not an apology for his slur upon the military. It was an apology for our inability to understand his "joke".

He says it was a jab directed at President George Bush, but I heard him loud and clear. This was no misunderstood context or botched joke. Kerry meant exactly what he said — after all, he’s been saying the same thing for 35 years.

Kerry's speech was printed by the New York Time. This is what he intended to say:"You know, education, if you make the most of it, if you study hard and do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, uh, you can do well. If you don't, you us get stuck in Iraq[/quote]

Please read that carefully. You will see that it directly slams George Bush, not American soldiers. While reading his speech, he left out the word Us.
What's more, he didn't write the speech in the first place and his speech writer had no intention of making a comment about anyone but Bush; it was clearly a flub. Also, I see on the board the notion that many believe Kerry dropped the dime on American soldiers that committed war crimes. No so. When he spoke to congress he was representing the veterans who had committed the crimes and had formed a group to inform Congress of their own behavior so that the congress would understand how demoralized and deranged soldiers become in a murderous but unholy little war. He ratted no one out. He delivered a message from veterans who designated him to do so and admitted that he too had engaged in questionable behavior when he shot a Viet Cong soldier in the back in the heat of battle.
I think Kerry's pretty much of a fool and/or idiot, but he's got more guts than that little draft-dodging coward in the White House can dream of. What's more, he helps veterans, soldiers, and their families. The little phony in the WH not only kills and injures soldiers by not armoring their vehicles, he also cuts soldier's pay and veterans benefits every chance he gets.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:01 pm**

Unfortunately, the facts just don't matter to these zombies. They've been programmed by the Right's propaganda machine and Faux news to fear and hate. These people would rally against Mother Theresa.

.....did you hear she was molesting those kids?

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:44 pm**

Kerry did not treat with the enemy. He represented a group of American soldiers who wanted to tell congress of their war crimes because they regretted them and wanted to stop future war crimes.

Absolutely untrue. There are, unfortunately, facts in evidence.

Several times in 1971, Kerry met with the North Vietnamese delegation to the peace talks while a serving Naval Reserve officer, with the intention of expressing his support for their efforts, without authorization, in the hope of sabotaging the efforts of the US negotiating efforts, through his expression of solidarity, and through his attempts at direct participation by representing the North Vietnamese positon in his July 22, 1971, press conference calling on President Nixon to accept the seven-point plan presented by Viet Cong leader Madame Nguyen Thi Binh.

This is treating with the enemy, and is a violation of the only felony directly identified in the Constitution.

Was it the protection of his mentor, Teddy the Hut, which prevented his prosecution?

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:50 pm**

Oh, right. I was confusing you with CounterTrey.

Interesting. I'm debating. You are insulting. We can play that, if you'd like.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:41 pm**

Several times in 1971, Kerry met with the North Vietnamese delegation to the peace talks while a serving Naval Reserve officer, with the intention of expressing his support for their efforts, without authorization, in the hope of sabotaging the efforts of the US negotiating efforts, through his expression of solidarity, and through his attempts at direct participation by representing the North Vietnamese positon in his July 22, 1971, press conference calling on President Nixon to accept the seven-point plan presented by Viet Cong leader Madame Nguyen Thi Binh.

Take this one, perfect example (thanks, by the way), simply cut-and-pasted from one of many BS Right Wing web sites. People read this trash and believe it to be true. That's why this sort of stuff is out there - In hopes that gullible people (or more often people who only hope to find whatever fits into their preconceived beliefs) will read it and not question whether it's from a reputable news source.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200409220006

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:23 pm**

Fact. Kerry met with members of the North Vietnamese delegation several times in Paris.

Fact. Kerry was a serving Naval Officer.

Fact. Kerry was not authorized to negotiate with the above delegation

Fact. Kerry presented the North Vietnamese position, and pushed his view that it should be accepted as was.

Fact. Kerry treated with the enemy to the detriment of the US, an act with constitutes treason.

Fact. I make no effort to call these meetings "secret", which is really the only discrepancy your article notes in the Fox News report. It certainly does not challenge the facts as I state above.

Fact. The reply above was written by me, not a cut and paste, based on research AND my recollections from then. Feel free to identify the site I plagerized if you with to challenge.

Your reliance on leftist spin sites is no different than what you accuse me of... though my information comes from a compilation of legitimate news sites, yes, including Fox, but also CNN, CBS, NBC, The Washington Post, The Washington Times, Newsweek, Time, and others.

But, let's play your game for a bit. From the article you cite:

According to the Post, the Kerry-Edwards '04 campaign said earlier this year that Kerry met with Nguyen Thi Binh, who was then foreign minister of the Provisional Revolutionary Government and a top negotiator at the talks. The Post went on to say that, "Kerry acknowledged ... that even going to the peace talks as a private citizen was at the 'borderline' of what was permissible under U.S. law, which forbids citizens from negotiating treaties with foreign governments.

The above acknowledgement concedes that there was at least some legitimacy to complaints that he was treating with the enemy... here's the problem, and where it gets messy for our hero... he says he was there as a "private citizen"... Unfortunately, he was not just any private citizen... he was a Commisioned Officer in the United States Naval Reserve.

Kerry's visit to Paris was not to formally participate in negotiations with Communist leaders.

What does this mean? How does the level of "fomality" make any difference? Does the implication that he was there to "informally" negotiate make the interaction somehow legitimate? I don't see a differentiation in the Constitution... do you?

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