Post game discussion here please - PG

[die cowboys die]

we could be only one game better than the Raiders after tonight....thats sick

We're only one game better than the Titans.

...

...

[old-timer]

we could be only one game better than the Raiders after tonight....thats sick

We're only one game better than the Titans.

Don't knock em', they beat us didn't they?

[SkinzCanes]

Don't knock em', they beat us didn't they?

Beating us isn't all that difficult.

[air_hog]

Gosh, we gave up 180 rushing yards to Travis Henry... Travis freakin Henry.

I seriously don't know what has happend to the Defense this year.

It's like, I don't even know, seriously I have know idea why/when our defense lost it.

Hopefully we can pick it up against Indy, which is a game I trully think we can win.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

Where is TRO? He must have hung himself after Brunell threw the game away.

Sorry, to dissapoint, but TRO's beenon the West Coast, and my internet access has been limited.

I was extremely disappointed with the team's play, and I have to finally admit it......



































Our defense sucks.

Brunell played well, but (until he threw the game away), even he (yes EVEN HE) needs to improve and get this offense clicking, no excuses.

However, in '04, th efan base complained about our inabilityto score 21 points to allow the defense to do its thing. Now, wescore 21+, and the defense allows enough to let the Titans roll out as vicotrs from FedEx.

The team has looked bad in consecutive weeks, and we are seriously hurting our chances of making a Super Bowl run this year.

We need a turnaround and fast.

Let's do it against the Colts!!!!!



P.S. To THN's "Places to watch" link. I was able to find a place in SF to watch the game, and there were p;enty of SKins fans there. THN rocks!!!

[die cowboys die]

Brunell played well, but (until he threw the game away), even he (yes EVEN HE) needs to improve and get this offense clicking, no excuses.

However, in '04, th efan base complained about our inabilityto score 21 points to allow the defense to do its thing. Now, wescore 21+, and the defense allows enough to let the Titans roll out as vicotrs from FedEx.

The team has looked bad in consecutive weeks, and we are seriously hurting our chances of making a Super Bowl run this year.

We need a turnaround and fast.

Let's do it against the Colts!!!!!

please consult a mental health professional, as soon as you can. i am seriously worried about you- and i don't mean that as a jab, i mean that quite honestly.

brunell is the worst quarterback in the NFL, and we are an extremely bad football team, the end.

[Snout]

I am exhausted and apathetic. My team needs a spark and so do I.

This is not the same team that closed out last season with five consecutive wins.

All teams face adversity, and character is what matters most in times of adversity. But you know what? This team has been facing a lot of adversity for a long time now. I am tired of the theme of overcoming adversity.

The truth is that we are backsliding.

I was expecting that we would be competitive in every game this year, consistently good, and maybe even outright dominant. I was expecting smashmouth Redskins football.

Yes the team needs to work hard. Yes the team needs to study the film. Yes every player needs to look at himself and ask "How can I help this football team?" But what the team really really needs is a spark.

[SCSkinsFan]

One note on C Rogers also. Did anyone else watching the game notice when he was covering Drew Bennett on one particular play that he waited until Bennett was 2 strides past him before he started trying to catch up, had no idea where the ball was, and got burned for 26 yds when we really needed a stop?

You mean the play on which he got burned deep and didn't even look back to see where the ball was?

Yep!

[Snout]

Another sign of how bad things have become:

In the offseason we snagged two of the best 49er players in Carter and Lloyd. The 49ers two top coaches (Mike Nolan as head coach and Norv Turner as offensive coordinator) are Redskins rejects who would never ever ever be welcome back in Washington. And yet both teams are 2-4. Go figure.

[joebagadonuts]

As bad as we were, though, we did tie the game up and then the defense promptly let Tennessee pretty much eat up the clock.

You're missing the part in there where the offense got the ball back and went three and out. How many times is the defense required to give the ball back to the offense before they're off the hook for the loss?

Not that I'm saying the defense played great, in fact, they were bad, but I'm sick of hearing 'Brunell stinks' and then a rebuttal of 'Yeah, but the defense....'

Time of possession is a stat that is owned by BOTH sides of the ball. The Redskins gained 30 yards in the 3rd quarter (10 if you include the safety). Of their 12 drives after the first quarter scores, 3 went longer than 3 plays. That's 8 three and outs (one 3 play drive resulted in a TD). How is that on the defense? How do those 3 and outs NOT count towards the lack of time of possession?

[Chris Luva Luva]

You're missing the part in there where the offense got the ball back and went three and out. How many times is the defense required to give the ball back to the offense before they're off the hook for the loss?

YES YES YES YES!! I was screaming that last week. According to 99% of the people in this forum the answer is INFINTE. If we scored 7 freaking points on our drives it wouldn't be an issue. If we could control the clock the defense would play a bit better.

How about our offense carry our defense for a year? Are they not entitled to one year? They've kept us aloft while this offense pisses around for the past 3 years. Now the defense is struggling and the offense still sucks.

[Mursilis]

You're missing the part in there where the offense got the ball back and went three and out. How many times is the defense required to give the ball back to the offense before they're off the hook for the loss?

YES YES YES YES!! I was screaming that last week. According to 99% of the people in this forum the answer is INFINTE. If we scored 7 freaking points on our drives it wouldn't be an issue. If we could control the clock the defense would play a bit better.

How about our offense carry our defense for a year? Are they not entitled to one year? They've kept us aloft while this offense pisses around for the past 3 years. Now the defense is struggling and the offense still sucks.

In both our close losses (Minn. and this one), the offense had the ball last and failed. I'm not saying the defense is good (it's clearly NOT), but the offense is clearly doing far less than its fair share (as usual for the last three years).

If this team wants to win another game THIS YEAR, the offense is going to have to score a LOT of points (like the Indy/KC/Cinncy teams of the past few years). Every game is going to have to be a shoot-out, or it's going to be a blow-out, with us on the losing end.

[RayNAustin]

I'm sorry, but Brunell, however inconsistent he may be, doesn't play defense. And apparently, neither does Rodgers, Rumph, Marshall, Archuleta, Holdman, and Wright. That's our biggest problem right now, not Brunell.

Sure, it's easy to say Brunell should have done better, and that would be true, but guess what? Brunell won the Jacksonville game in spite of a defense that gave up two 4th quarter leads.....remember???

Yesterday, the Titans with a 1st year QB with 2 starts and an 0-5 record marched down the filed at will....running the ball down our throats....and when they weren't doing that, they were making our secondary look foolish as was the case against the Giants, and Jacksonville the weeks before.

So what must the offense do? Score 35 a game? From a long field? Part of our offensive problem I think is because we are also dealing with field position issues because our defense is playing so poorly. On the rare occasion that we do stop them, we find ourselves backed up, and playing a long field.

Yesterday, the Titans had the ball for almost 36 min to our 24 min. Some of that might be because of our 3 and outs, but most of it I think is because of our inability to get opposing offenses off the field.

Here's the problem: In 2004 we had a solid D. Our top three in tackles were Pierce 112, Washington 107, Clark 81. Pierce and Clark are gone. Instead of LB's being two of the top three tacklers, we now have Archuleta, Taylor, and Marshall about equal in tackles. Notice how in 2004 it was LB's making 2/3 of the tackles, with the SS 1/3. This year we have our safeties making 2/3 and and our MLB making 1/3 of the tackles. That's not a good thing, and that's why we're having so many big plays against us, and why we can't stop third and longs. When your safeties are accounting for 2/3 of your tackles up front, that means that you have no safety help in coverage leaving the corners hanging out to dry. If you drop the safeties, you get run on all day long. That's what we are seeing.

It get's worse....with Harris gone, and Springs and Prioleau out, we have to rely on Wright and Rodgers to cover and they aint getting it done, period. Rodgers can't cover and he can't catch a cold. Wright isn't doing much better, and we don't even hear Rumph's name. With no pass rush, what do you do? You can only bring safeties on a blitz when your LB's are making plays....ours are not. With no pressure, those questionable corners are all the more exposed.

This is why we are seeing a complete collapse of the defense. The missing element are the players the Redskins decided they didn't need to retain....Pierce....Arrington....Clark....Smoot....Harris...over the past two seasons. Their replacements are not getting the job done, and that's why we've gone from the #3 D to our current #21. I attribute this as much to Williams arrogance as I do to salary cap issues, because we decided that Pierce didn't earn a raise, and we're paying double for Archuleta what we were playing for Clark. We dumped Harris, and Arrington. Smoot is the only cap issue I see here, because Smoot was solid, but he thought he was Bailey (money wise).

In 2004, we gave up 20 or more points in only 4 games all year. Average of 16.6. This year we've given up 20 or more 3 times already, with an average of 22, and those numbers are likely to get worse next week when Payton Manning throws for 500 yards and 51 points.

If it hadn't been for an amazing offensive effort against Jacksonville, we'd be 1-5 right now, with our only win coming against the Texans. This is a very bad football team right now, and I'm not sure that a Brett Favre in his prime could turn things around at this point....never mind Campbell. But I do agree that Campbell should be put in, if nothing more than to see if we have something to work with in him. But he's not going to be a magic bullet fix.

Sadly, I don't see how any of this is going to change significantly this year.

Even more sadly, as much as I've always loved Gibbs, he's ultimately responsible for this. Personally, I think Williams is too full of himself and his almighty defensive system to admit that the players like Smoot, Clark, Pierce, Arrington, Harris, etc were what made his system work, and now that they're gone, we are in big, big trouble no matter what the offense does or doesn't do.

Gibbs being the motivator that he is, may be able to keep this club from totally flying apart at the seams, but at this point 8-8 is about the best case scenario with 4-12 or 5-11 looking more likely.

Playoffs? Seek mental health assistence. The only playoff action this bunch is gonna see is on TV.

[nnskinsfan]

Hopefully we'll realize soon that we've got to run (pound) the ball instead of floundering around like we did at the beginning of last year. That should help also by keeping our D on the sidelines.

[JPFair]

Well, I was at the game yesterday. Before the game started, I told mself that I was going to look at the "big picture" to see if I could see what goes wrong, what goes right, etc.. What you see on the TV screen isn't always reflective of what goes on over the entire field, so I had planned on watching a few players from the beginning of the play to the end of the play, regardless of where the ball was.

First off, it was Brunell. I watched him for five consecutve plays to see what he did from start to finish. Two of the plays were pass plays, one of which was a quick screen to Moss. The other one was a deep pass to Moss where Brunell badly underthrew him and Moss had to defend it just to avoice the INT. On that play, I was watching Brunell and from the minute the ball was snapped, he never once looked at any WR other than Moss. In fact, his head never looked ANYWHERE but on the right sideline wating for Moss to get deep. I don't know if Lloyd was open or not cuz I was watching Brunell, but on a deep pass like that he should have checked the rest of the field for an open WR. He didn't do it.

I have been unwavering in my support of whatever Coach Gibbs decides as far as the QB position goes. And, that hasn't changed one bit. However, if it was me, and I'm thankfull that it's not, I think it's time to plug the new kid in there. Up until now, I've always given Brunell the benefit of the doubt because so many other aspects of the team were playing poorly, and they still are, but having seen what I saw yesterday I think Brunell is now more of a hindrance than he is a help.

Even though I think Campbell should be in there, and that Brunell is no longer capable of leading this team on a consistent basis, I think the 'anger' that so many are showing is unwarranted. We seem to be cutting all the other players some extra slack for having to learn a new offense, but Brunell isn't getting as much rope as the rest. I looked back at when Saunders became the OC in KC, and their record clearly shows that it took a full season for them to grasp the offense in a way that produced consistent good play. Is that what we're in the middle of? Overthrown balls are a classic example of learning a new offense, so maybe that's what it is. If so, then I give Brunell a little slack, but at the same time, maybe it's time to let Campbell learn it. If Campbell is our "future", and this offense is really that tough to grasp, then time is of the essence in getting Campbell in there to make him effective next year and for years to come.

So, yes, I would like to see Brunell out. But, I'd also like to see Kenny Wright out, Adam Archuleta, Andre Carter, and a few others. I really think our offensive line is more of a problem for this team than we think. So, why not make changes there as well?

It's too late for Brunell to change his approach. At first I thought it was Lloyd just wasn't getting open in order to get the ball, but when Brunell doesn't even look at him, how can he get the ball? Same with Patten. Thrash? Randle-El? But, those problems that Brunell clearly has doesn't automatically make the rest of the team innocent.

Diecowboysdie's comments about firing Joe Gibbs are absolutely ridiculous. Joe Gibbs should NOT be fired for ANY reason. He's signed a five year contract, and he's vowed to turn the team around in those five years. Let's see if he does it!! I'm sure there are a LOT of things going on behind the scenes that we don't know about, and one of them may very well be the QB situation. In this situation, there's nobody on earth that we should want coaching our team right now than Joe Gibbs. I don't agree with everything that Coach Gibbs is doing, but I support him 100% and will continue to do so. If he wants Brunell in there, then even though I'd rather Campbell in there, I'd support his decision and wish Brunell the best and hope he does well. Somehow though, I think Gibbs knows a lot more than people give him credit for. I think our ship is in safe hands, though it might be a bumpy ride.

[RayNAustin]

Interesting article in the post today that I also agree with regarding our lack of running.

We open the game with a botched end around for a loss of 2 yards, and Portis had a total of only 14 carries fro 58 yards.

We did the same thing last year when we started 3-0 and then went on that 2-6 slide. We rededicated to the run, and went 5-0 to make it into the playoffs.

Here we have Portis, Betts, Sellers, Duckett, and Cartwright a combination of hard running talent to pound the ball, and we give it to Portis only 14 times? We had a lead of 14 - 3, and should have been pounding it.

I still contend that we have a major coaching issue happening here. The defense is pathetic (because of poor personnel decisions IMO), and we simply aren't establishing that power run game that is Redskin football, which controls the ball, keeping that vulnerabe defense off the field.

There are too many issues to expect a QB change to solve......unless you believe the 1969 Redskins philosophy is what you want. Back then, Sonny lit em up in the passing game, but we had no defense, and usually went 3-9 or thereabouts for the season.

Right now, the players are starting to question play calling. The defense is getting toasted, and we are looking straight into the mouth of the beast, and one blow out away from a team rebuilding phase.

The Giants game was a big wake up call.......no body heard it.

[JPFair]

Right now, the players are starting to question play calling.

Do you have a link?

[SkinsJock]

..We open the game with a botched end around for a loss of 2 yards...

I think that your post was too the point but I did want to add to this item. I was listening to Sonny and Sam at the begining of the game and Sam really questioned this call and said this was a terrible way to open the game. Sonny said he should contact Saunders. Shortly after, on the same drive, they did it again and it worked Sonny then asked Sam if he liked the call? Sam replied that he did because it worked

Basically I agree with your point about the run game and think that offensively a lot of our perceived problems will go away if we make a much bigger commitment to the run game than giving Portis 14 carries per game.

Now if we can just get the defense to tackle and create some turnovers we will be back in the hunt.

[RayNAustin]

It's scattered over different player interviews.....they aren't pulling a T. O. outwardly.....just comments like "we need to get back to Redskin football" i.e. meaning running the ball. Portis has been very diplomatic saying they need to execute regardless of the play called. But it's easy to read between the lines. When asked about certain plays called...the "I don't know" comments are certainly telling.

If you recall, the offense lobied for a return to running the ball last year when we went on the 5-0 stretch.

[ClintonHill]

Interesting comments by everyone on yesterday's game. This is good group therapy.

Up until recently I was willing to trust Gregg Williams and his personnel decisions on the defense. But after yesterday's embarassment, it's time to reevaluate the man I had considered a 'genius'.

Losing players like Matt Bown, Walt Harris and even Lavar Arrington are understandable. None of those players ever did anything special on a regular basis.

Antonio Pierce, on the other hand, was absolutely crucial to our amazing defense of 2004. After that season, he wanted slightly more than we wanted to pay him, so we let him walk. Gregg basically assured Redskin Nation that Lemar Marshall could replace Pierce.

Fastforward two seasons and its obvious that Marshall can't hold Pierce's jockstrap. On top of that. we've thrown millions of dollars at unproven free agents like Adam Archuletta and Andre Carter. This is a signature move of the Danny era. Pierce busts his butt and shows how valuable he is, and we let him walk over peanuts. Archuletta and Carter are big flashy free agents (who haven't actually proven anything) and we throw millions at them. The Redskins need to get their priorities straight. They need a long term vision, because the Danny doesn't have one.

I hold Joe, the Danny, and Gregg responsible for thinking that Pierce wasn't worth the money. I hold them responsible for our total lack of depth in the secondary. I hold them responsible for thinking Holdman could be solid at WLB. I hold them responsible for replacing Fred Smoot with Carlos "where's the ball?" Rogers. I hold them responsible for Carter & Archuletta.

This isn't the worst team in the league. And it's not the worst franchise. We have a lot of talent, and we have coaches capable of being great. But some things need to change - beginning with our financial priorities when it comes to building from within or paying out the butt for free agents.

[JPFair]

It's scattered over different player interviews.....they aren't pulling a T. O. outwardly.....just comments like "we need to get back to Redskin football" i.e. meaning running the ball. Portis has been very diplomatic saying they need to execute regardless of the play called. But it's easy to read between the lines. When asked about certain plays called...the "I don't know" comments are certainly telling.

If you recall, the offense lobied for a return to running the ball last year when we went on the 5-0 stretch.

Having players "question the play calling" and having them say "We need to get back to Redskins football" are two entirely seperate things!! Even the coaching staff will tell you that the team needs to get back to playing "Redskins football", but that's not questioning the play calling. Everyone on the team and on the Coaching staff want to run the ball, but to say that players are questioning the play calling is saying something that is simply not true.

Your post says that "Now, players are questioning the play calling", which is extremely misleading. T.O. questions play calling!! Randy Moss questions play calling!! Teams that aren't United as a team question play calling. To the best of my knowledge, NO player on the Redskins has questioned the play calling. You're putting words in the players mouthes!! Perhaps you should have said "The players want to get back to Redskins football" instead of insinuating that the teams morale is starting to crack and fingers are being pointed. If you listen to those interviews, the players themselves say that there's NO FINGERPOINTING going on!

[wbbradb]

Whoever was asking about the play where Carlos Rogers didn't look back for the ball has to be more specific. Carlos NEVER looks back for the ball. I honestly don't know how you can ever expect to intercept a pass if you don't ever look for the ball. Kenny Wright looks much better than Carlos right now, and that's not a good thing.

Does anyone know how long that field goal would have been when we were around their 35 yard line with about 4 minutes to go and decided to punt? I don't know exactly what yard line it was, but I thought, you've got to try to get the points and at least tie it up...

[Irn-Bru]

Having players "question the play calling" and having them say "We need to get back to Redskins football" are two entirely seperate things!! Even the coaching staff will tell you that the team needs to get back to playing "Redskins football", but that's not questioning the play calling. Everyone on the team and on the Coaching staff want to run the ball, but to say that players are questioning the play calling is saying something that is simply not true.

Your post says that "Now, players are questioning the play calling", which is extremely misleading. T.O. questions play calling!! Randy Moss questions play calling!! Teams that aren't United as a team question play calling. To the best of my knowledge, NO player on the Redskins has questioned the play calling. You're putting words in the players mouthes!! Perhaps you should have said "The players want to get back to Redskins football" instead of insinuating that the teams morale is starting to crack and fingers are being pointed. If you listen to those interviews, the players themselves say that there's NO FINGERPOINTING going on!

Good post, JP. I think that the WP and other sources will do everything they can to make it look like our internal locker room is chaos. I think that the problem is larger than an individual player or one facet of our team. I've only been a fan for a short while compared to others on this board, but I have never witnessed a team this stacked with talent put on such frustrating performances. There is a distinct lack of drive and pride to their play. I'm sure they are more frustrated than the fans, and I don't question that they want to win, but things simply aren't clicking.


I can agree with most of the venting that I see in this thread. What a terrible day to be a Redskins fan. The laments of BossHog, RiC, JPFair, and Steve Spurrier III were (I thought) particularly well-stated and said everything that I would want to, except better.


To die cowboys die in particular, a few things:

* Fire Gibbs. . .again? The last thing this team needs is for Snyder to clean house. Consistency in a coaching staff means riding ups and downs and giving a coach time to have a legitimate chance at turning a franchise around. If we fire Gibbs it'd be back to square one. . .and that reminds me of the late 90's - early 00's when all we did was switch schemes and coaches looking for the magic combination.

* 'But wait, there's more' . . . not only should Gibbs be fired . . . but then you suggest that he ought to get his mental health checked. And you're serious in saying that! I've noticed that you tend to speak in stark and absolute terms, but this has to be the most ridiculous thing I've seen you write. (And I've read just about everything that you've written on the board in the past 2 years). Plus, to make matters worse, you're extending your mental health warning to any message board members who don't see it the way you do! ("Gibbs is crazy--mentally unstable, not 'fun for parties'--oh, and so is everyone that disagrees with me on this topic.")

* Finally, Brunell has been bad. Terrible. He hasn't contributed toward winning games recently. But he is not the main reason why we have lost the past two weeks--that is, he doesn't stand out any more than any other player or unit in that category. (Also, he's 12th in the league among quarterbacks, statistically speaking. That should be updated tomorrow, but I don't think he'll get much worse/better based on this week's performance). So please stop acting as if anyone that doesn't think he's the worst in the league deserves a mental health check. That kind of talk seethes with arrogance, and that gets old.

[die cowboys die]

To die cowboys die in particular, a few things:

* Fire Gibbs. . .again? The last thing this team needs is for Snyder to clean house. Consistency in a coaching staff means riding ups and downs and giving a coach time to have a legitimate chance at turning a franchise around. If we fire Gibbs it'd be back to square one. . .and that reminds me of the late 90's - early 00's when all we did was switch schemes and coaches looking for the magic combination.

* 'But wait, there's more' . . . not only should Gibbs be fired . . . but then you suggest that he ought to get his mental health checked. And you're serious in saying that! I've noticed that you tend to speak in stark and absolute terms, but this has to be the most ridiculous thing I've seen you write. (And I've read just about everything that you've written on the board in the past 2 years). Plus, to make matters worse, you're extending your mental health warning to any message board members who don't see it the way you do! ("Gibbs is crazy--mentally unstable, not 'fun for parties'--oh, and so is everyone that disagrees with me on this topic.")

* Finally, Brunell has been bad. Terrible. He hasn't contributed toward winning games recently. But he is not the main reason why we have lost the past two weeks--that is, he doesn't stand out any more than any other player or unit in that category. (Also, he's 12th in the league among quarterbacks, statistically speaking. That should be updated tomorrow, but I don't think he'll get much worse/better based on this week's performance). So please stop acting as if anyone that doesn't think he's the worst in the league deserves a mental health check. That kind of talk seethes with arrogance, and that gets old.

all hail The Untouchables!

the only reason gibbs' blind devotion to MB04 isn't considered insanity is because we live in a country where dogmatic faith that disregards all rational evidence is inexplicably still considered to be within the standards of rational thought.

QB ratings and the stat sheet don't reflect "errors" like they do in the baseball. a QB can commit many other errors than simply throwing an interception. yes, he is the worst QB in the league, or at least one of the worst 3 or 4.

[wbbradb]

I've only been a fan for a short while compared to others on this board, but I have never witnessed a team this stacked with talent put on such frustrating performances.

I think this is where a lot of us have been mistaken. Where is the talent?

Talented players:
Portis
Moss
Lloyd
Randel-El
Thomas
Jansen
Taylor

I just wouldn't call anyone else on this team "talent." Is this more or less talent than most NFL teams have? Is this "stacked"? And by talent, I mean someone with the ability to make game-changing plays on his own or someone capable of dominating his position. Outside of these guys, team play, team effort, and the systems are what the Redskins have to rely on. (This is essentially ALL the defense has to rely on.) I think some players on the team may have looked at the game-changing plays these talented guys have made and then thought, oh good, we have so-and-so to bail us out. Then they give less than 100% effort.