TO Rushed to the ER.....

[Dangerfield]

Hold on a second JP. Showing his lab results would not be of any benefit here. It is quite obvious that he did not take more than 3 or 4 Hydrocodone pills. Just the fact that he was released with out an extensive psych eval and the fact that he was able to drive himself to cowboys practice and run routes the same day proves that he never had any dangerous amount of the drug in his system. Even if he had taken a bunch of pills ie 20+, then he obviously would have had his stomach pumped or vomiting induced, and this would preclude the drugs from entering his bloodstream in large quantities. I don't understand why you would want to see his blood tests or what this would prove.

I'm not saying that this whole episode was strictly an accident, but IMO you are barking up the wrong tree asking to see his lab tests. The evidence of him leaving the hospital, driving, practicing etc. is clealry proof that he never had an elevated level of drugs in his blood stream, and therefore they would not show up on any lab results.

I hate to say it, but his explaination actually seems to add up. I am still wondering though if he was not 'acting out' amongst his inner circle..ie being dramatic and taking a couple extra pills in front of his liar errrrr publicist for attention. But it is pretty clear at this point that he was not trying to off himself.

[NikiH]

I have in fact seen people who have taken more then 20 Percoset and while they are for the next 10 to 20 hours effected, the medicine wears off quite quickly compared to what someone might think.

I've also witnessed hospitals release people who obviously attempted suicide within just a few hours.

It happens and this is without the money involved. So with money involved it is obvious that

I might have believe T.O., if his story wasn't so stupid. He put extra pills in a drawer? Yeah I always just dump my pill bottles into a drawer for safe keeping. While I'm at it I pour my cough syrup into tupperware containers????

That is not the only thing that does not make sense. I'd like to see some scientific proof that ANY nutrional supplement could effect the functionality of pain medicine much less cause an adverse reaction. No prescription I've ever been given for percocet cautions against the use of any supplements. The entire thing sound quite made up and given T.O.'s past I would not be surprised if this was a convinient cover up.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

I might have believe T.O., if his story wasn't so stupid. He put extra pills in a drawer? Yeah I always just dump my pill bottles into a drawer for safe keeping. While I'm at it I pour my cough syrup into tupperware containers????

What's so "stupid" about it? A lot of people who take several pills/supplements a day, put them in some sort of pill box. Old folk do it all the time. Why not T.O.?

Keep in mind, too, that one Bill Romanowski was notorious for carrying around a tacklebox full of "supplements", and HE probably didn't carry the med bottles either.

It might be hard for YOU to swallow (no pun intended), but it most certainly is plausible and not "stupid", as you have indicated.

[Dangerfield]

NikiH..

Just to clarify, TO was not using Percocet, it was Hydrocodone.

As for everything else you say, I'm not going to tell you that you did not have these experiences, but I AM saying that it is almost impossible, and this comes from every doctor that I've heard comment on the TO situation, to imagine TO driving himself to practice, being released as he was and then physically running pass routes that same day. (Had he od'd on hydrocodone)

I know that a lot of people want this attempted suicide drama to be true, and I am not saying that TO does not have some mental issues, but I am having a hard time concluding that he was really attempting suicide.

[JPFair]

NikiH..

Just to clarify, TO was not using Percocet, it was Hydrocodone.

As for everything else you say, I'm not going to tell you that you did not have these experiences, but I AM saying that it is almost impossible, and this comes from every doctor that I've heard comment on the TO situation, to imagine TO driving himself to practice, being released as he was and then physically running pass routes that same day. (Had he od'd on hydrocodone)

I know that a lot of people want this attempted suicide drama to be true, and I am not saying that TO does not have some mental issues, but I am having a hard time concluding that he was really attempting suicide.

I believe he was driven from the hospital by someone else. Whether or not he drove himself to practice, I don't know. But, as was pointed out earlier: Hydrocodone has a "half life' of approximately four hours, which means it's practically in and out of your system in four hours.

Also, how do you know for certain that he only took a few painkillers? The only way to find out is by having the lab results made public. Absent any solid proof that he was trying to kill himself, the Hosptal is simply going to release him once he starts to feel better. And, in all likelihood, seeing as it was hydrocodone, it was probably a few hours after he took them based on the half life of the drug. As I said, I personally don't think he took them to kill himself, but he knew just what he was doing. A person that keeps their body in the type of shape he's in knows what to put into it, and what not to put into it. I again refer to when he broke his foot during the season before last. Did he not know then not to mix his supplements with his pain meds? I don't buy the story about it being an 'adverse' reaction cuz he has plenty of nutritionists, by his own admissino, as well as physical trainers, etc.... He knew exactly what he was doing. And, another thing I'd like to know, is what was his publicist doing at his house at the time, and did she just arrive to find T.O. like that or what had he done either with her, or on his own, for the few hours before he went loopy?

And fyi: Percocet and Hydrocodone are very similar in their properties as pain medication, with Percocet being stronger than hydrocodone, but their molecular structure, and opiate base are prett much the exact same.

[Dangerfield]

So JP, we agree that he was likely not trying to kill himself right? I also mentioned earlier that TO may well have been dramatizing the situation to which his "publicist" overreacted, that would not surprise me.

I still don't think the blood tests would prove anything, because had he taken extreme amounts, I think that the hospital would have removed them from his stomach before they would have been in his blooddstream/test results.

Anyway, who cares...we all know he's a Drama Queen.

fyi: There actually are some substantive differences btwn percs and hydrcdn, but since I'm not a MD I'll save you the dime explanantion. I just know that many times people with different reactions will take one or the other exclusively. Out...

[JPFair]

So JP, we agree that he was likely not trying to kill himself right?

I guess we do. As I said, I personally don't think he was trying to kill himself. But, I do believe he was using the medication for purposes other than it was prescribed for. Whether that was to kill himself, enjoy a good buzz, or whatever reason, he knew what he was doing when he put them in his mouth.

I still don't think the blood tests would prove anything, because had he taken extreme amounts, I think that the hospital would have removed them from his stomach before they would have been in his blooddstream/test results.

uh, they did!! Not by stomach pumping, but as just about every article that has been written on this incident says, they Doctors attempted to induce vomiting. As far as whether or not they'd be in his system, I would think that if T.O. was "non-responsive", as he himself has said, then there's a pretty darn good chance that whatever made him that way was is 'in his system' and would show up in a lab test. I'm sure the Hospital staff took tests, as they are required to do so in such a situation, but as I said earlier, that's priveleged information and T.O. may be a thug, but he aint dumb! He's not going to say "Hey, I didn't take 35 pills and you can see the lab results to prove it". What if someone took him up on it, what would they see in the lab tests? The drug would be in his 'system' by the time the paramedics got there, but to what extent, I think, is unknwn. Either way, they tried to induce vomiting and we don't know if he did or not. As for what any lab tests would show, I think they'd clearly show whether or not T.O. was using the pills as they were intented to be used, or was he using them in larger quantities for some other reason (i.e. recreationally or suicide).

There actually are some substantive differences

Yes, there are, and that's why I said that they're "similar". However, they're both opiates that are "similar" in structure, even if they're not the same drug.

[tcwest10]

Also, thanks for the lesson in math. I had spent my entire life under the impression that 11 was the highest number possible

The new math allows you to go as high as twelve, I understand.

[forskins]

uh, they did!! Not by stomach pumping, but as just about every article that has been written on this incident says, they Doctors attempted to induce vomiting.

Articles from who? Espn, Foxsports, NFL.com, Fark.com?

You are banking on a secondary source for this? In this case, it would be a third source. That that would be like asking the cow, who heard from the chicken, that the had vomiting induced. Sorry, I'd rather hear it from the horses mouth. Granted, you may not trust the primary source, but you can't take away his credibility. He has been a jerk in the past, but has he every lied about anything?

Secondly, any Doctor that enjoys practicing medicine would never release information like that to the media. That is a huge confidentiality situation.

[Primetime42]

FYI, the stuff is just one step below oxycontin, which is pretty damn powerful.

[JPFair]

JPFair wrote:

uh, they did!! Not by stomach pumping, but as just about every article that has been written on this incident says, they Doctors attempted to induce vomiting.


Articles from who? Espn, Foxsports, NFL.com, Fark.com?

You are banking on a secondary source for this? In this case, it would be a third source. That that would be like asking the cow, who heard from the chicken, that the had vomiting induced. Sorry, I'd rather hear it from the horses mouth. Granted, you may not trust the primary source, but you can't take away his credibility. He has been a jerk in the past, but has he every lied about anything?

Has he ever lied about anything in the past? Well, based on what he's said in his own book, what he said to the media after his fallout with the Eagles, and based on various other sources including the Media, other players, etc.., I would say ABSOLUTELY he has lied in the past. Based on T.O.'s past history, I would trust a reputable news site, the Dallas Police Officers, the Dallas Police Department itself, the Baylor Medical Center, and a whole lot of other people before I'd EVER believe a word that comes out of his mouth. Have I ever caught him in the act of a lie? No, but I'm confident enough based on what I've seen to make a pretty definitive conlusion that he's lied in the recent past. T.O.'s "credibility" went out the window a long time ago. It's not like he's been a model citizen all his life.

As far as whether or not they actually did try to induce vomiting? Why on earth would the Medical Response team AND the Police Department lie about such a thing? It's one thing if they have a reason to lie for their own benefit or financial gain, but they have absolutely NO reason to make up this kind of story at all. It doesn't benefit them in any way at all, they were simply doing their job. I mean, the POLICE didn't call 911, the EMT's didn't call 911. Oh, and speaking of 911, where's the 911 call? I'm not sure, but I'd be willing to bet that this thing was closed out in such a hurry so as to prevent the 911 call from being released. Hopefully, various trusted media sites will get access to the 911 call, though I doubt it. That 911 call might shed light on a lot of things that might shatter not just T.O's credibility, but that of his so called "Publicist" as well. Let's see what she said on the 911 call, and whether or not she said he was depressed or what he had done with all those pills?

Secondly, any Doctor that enjoys practicing medicine would never release information like that to the media. That is a huge confidentiality situation.

You don't think T.O. knows that? And, when did I say that it SHOULD be released? As I said in my first response in this thread, T.O. has this little caveat working for him. He'd be a FOOL to authorize any of that information cuz he knows it would show a hell of a lot of pain medication in his system, and certainly a lot more than the "amount prescribed". Your comment about Doctors releasing this kind of information to the media, or ANYONE for that matter, is basically re-affirming the point that I originally made. T.O. knows they can't release it, yet he also knows that he could clear up the whole mess simply by saying "look at the lab results". It's perfectly legal for a patient to authorize the attending physician to release the results to anyone the patient wants it to be released to. But, ask yourself Why won't he? There's two reasons:

1- Cuz it's priveleged information and he has the right, and the Doctor has the obligation, to keep it that way.

2- Could it be that such a release would show that T.O. had a lot more pain medication in his system than he should have?

If you note, the Dallas P.D. are now classifying this as an "accidental overdose", which runs hand in hand with the point I made originally. I don't think T.O. tried to kill himself, therefore I don't believe it was an "intentional" overdose. Therefore, any overdose T.O. may have taken was of course "accidental". There aren't too many overdoses that aren't suicide, that ARE accidental. I believe that it was an accidental overdose brought on by him taking more pain medication than he should have, but not knowing the consequences of doing so. I mean, it's like when a person gets drunk. They don't MEAN to drink themselves until they black out, but they certainly wanted another beer, and another one, and another one, and another one.

[JPFair]

FYI, the stuff is just one step below oxycontin, which is pretty damn powerful.

Depending on your definition of "one step below", I'd disagree with this comment. Oxycontin is a HELL of a lot more powerfull than Hydrocodone. In fact, Oxycontin is in a completely different class of drugs than Hydrocodone. For example, a Dr. can easily call in a prescription of Hydrocodone to the local pharmacy by telephone. By law, he can't simply call in a prescription for Oxycontin. Hydrocodone is in a class of drugs called Schedule III. Oxycontin is in a class called Schedule II, which is a HUGE difference. It's like comparing Miller Lite to Bacardi 151 proofe. They're both alcohol, but one is a hell of a lot more potent than the other. The 'half life' of a Hydroconde is 4-5 hours, while Oxycontins is 24 hours. The two drugs, while both pain killers, are light years apart from each other. One is long lasting, the other is short. One is timely released, the other is instant release. One is a Schedule II, the other is a Schedule III.

In any event, T.O., with all his personal trainers, physicians, nutritionists, etc... is undoubtedly quite fluent in what he should put into his body and what he shouldn't. To say that he simply had an adverse reaction from a pain medication, I think, doesn't hold water based on the fact that he's taken pain medications in the past (if you believe what he says in his book, anyway). It's very convenient for him to say that it was an adverse reaction, cuz of his situation and the publics knowledge of him being such a gifted athlete.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

Honestlly, guys, at this point we're missing the bigger picture of it all.

Thankfully, for all the media coverage we got on T.O. this week, we didn't have to read/listen/watch an obituary.

Love him or hate him, a tragedy was averted. Big thanks to everyone involved.

[forskins]

Thankfully, for all the media coverage we got on T.O. this week, we didn't have to read/listen/watch an obituary.

You are joking right?! You actually think the media saved this guy's life? Those guys would have had a field day if he would have offed himself. They would have turned him into a martyr. They would have been running his life story 24-7. One thing is obvious about the media, the more horrifying it is, the more they squeeze every bit of ratings out it. The media was the entire reason that this thing went as crazy as it did. They got ahold of an inaccurate police report (according the DPD) and absolutely abused the living crap out of it ,without any regard to the person affected or his family. Like TO or not, he was brutally slandered the last 48 hours and the media is 100% percent responsible.

I'm sorry Primetime42 that you are part of the media, but come on, the way they handled things was just WAY out of line.

Love him or hate him, a tragedy was averted. Big thanks to everyone involved.

Yes, he had an allergic reaction to the meds he was taken and the EMTs, Police Dept., and Hospital staff all did there jobs to the best of their ability to keep this from escalating into a more serious situation as they would for any normal person.

[Dangerfield]

I believe what redeemed meant was:

"Thankfully a tragedy was averted, even though we got a bunch of media coverage."

He can confirm, but read his sentence with the commas, and you'll see that he was making an aside, not claiming that the media saved TO.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

I believe what redeemed meant was:

"Thankfully a tragedy was averted, even though we got a bunch of media coverage."

He can confirm, but read his sentence with the commas, and you'll see that he was making an aside, not claiming that the media saved TO.

Dangerfield...you gets my respect for that one.

[forskins]

I believe what redeemed meant was:

"Thankfully a tragedy was averted, even though we got a bunch of media coverage.".

Looking at that way, yes you are right. That wasn't the way it read to me the first time. I must have jumped to a quick assumption and responded to that without thinking it through.

So I basically acted exactly like the media I just critisized.

[Primetime42]

I'm sorry Primetime42 that you are part of the media, but come on, the way they handled things was just WAY out of line.

Couldn't agree with you more, bud.

I wasn't working on Wednesday, but I was still in touch. Wasn't pretty.