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hkHog wrote:OK, lets get back on topic shall we:

Monday, February 27, 2006
Sources say Jets talking Abraham deals at combine

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By Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com

Upset at having been tagged as a franchise player for a second straight year, New York Jets defensive end John Abraham told the New York Post over the weekend that he has "overstayed [his] welcome" with the club and that "it's time to move on."

Team officials apparently agree.

Multiple league sources said that the Jets have been offering Abraham in trade talks during the NFL scouting combine in Indianapolis, and have discussed potential scenarios with a number of teams. It is believed that the talks have not moved to the substantive stage with any suitors and that a deal is not imminent, but that the Jets' intention remains to deal Abraham, probably for a package of draft choices.

Among the several teams with whom the Jets have spoken in recent days are the Washington Redskins and the Denver Broncos.

In a move that had been anticipated, the Jets last week designated Abraham a franchise player, essentially making him a one-year qualifying offer of $8.33 million, but also severely limiting his mobility in free agency. New York used the franchise tag a year ago, as well, to retain Abraham, and he missed all the offseason programs and training camp before signing the one-year deal, worth $6.66 million just days before the start of the season.

The team's rationale in using the franchise restriction this year, however, seems aimed at trying to fetch something in return for Abraham, who prefers a long-term contract. In a statement, new Jets general manager Mike Tannenbaum said last week that applying the franchise tag to Abraham "speaks volumes about what type of player we feel he is." That has not kept the Jets, though, from speaking to other teams about the six-year veteran and three-time Pro Bowl performer.

It is not known what the Jets are seeking in return for Abraham, but any trade would certainly have to include a first-round draft choice. Abraham might be able to force the hand of the cap-strapped Jets by signing the qualifying offer, which would guarantee the money. The $8.33 million already counts against the New York cap for 2006, but guaranteeing the money might be a tough swallow for a club facing a major overhaul because of a debilitating cap overage.

Without specifically citing Abraham, Denver defensive coordinator Larry Coyer allowed at the combine that the Broncos hope to add a pass-rusher in the offseason. Despite statistically ranking No. 15 in total defense in 2005, the Broncos were 29th in defense versus the pass, and a big part of that was that Denver generated just 28 sacks, third fewest in the league. No Broncos defender had more than four sacks in 2005.

"I know this about [head coach] Mike Shanahan," said Coyer. "There will be a move."

Washington, which was said to be enamored with Abraham a year ago, also needs a consistent upfield pass-rush threat. Although the Redskins had 35 sacks in 2005, the lack of a pass rusher means that inventive defensive coordinator Gregg Williams has to work that much harder to create sack opportunities. The only Redskins defensive lineman with more than four sacks last season was end Phillip Daniels, but six of his eight sacks came in the final three games, including a four-sack performance.

One problem shared by both Denver and Washington is the state of their respective salary caps. Both teams are squeezed by the spending limit and, like other franchises around the league, are reluctant to make any kind of move until the NFL's collective bargaining issues are resolved. Plus, since he is not under contract, Abraham cannot be dealt until he either signs the one-year qualifying offer or a long-term contract.

Termed by Cleveland Browns coach Romeo Crennel as "head and shoulders" above any pass rusher available this offseason, Abraham certainly is a proven sack man. One of the Jets' four first-round selections in the 2000 draft, Abraham has consistently been among the top pass rushers in the NFL, when healthy. Limited to just 19 appearances in 2003-2004 because of injuries, Abraham played in all 16 games for the Jets in 2005, only the third time in six years he has played a full schedule.

He registered 67 tackles, 10½ sacks, six forced fumbles, one recovery and two passes defensed. For his career, the former South Carolina star has 328 tackles, 53½ sacks, 18 forced fumbles, five recoveries and eight pass deflections in 73 games. Players of his ilk don't often become available in the league, but the relationship between Abraham and Jets officials may have reached the point where a trade would be the best scenario for both parties.

Well, we don't have a first rounder so who knows what will happen?

box wrote:Numbers dont mean JACK! Why do you think all these other guys kept playing past 3 yrs? How about intangibles like leadership, game management, heart, desire? Need i go on? Big Ben got them, and not the numbers but he has a ring cause of all the things except the NUMBERS!!!!! Please, been watching ball a long time, and Pram just dont have IT

Steve Spurrier III wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:You don't think Ramsey's likely to get the Skins three scores in a game? Check his record.

In his 24 career starts, the Redskins have scored 21 or more points eight times, and six of those games came in the Spurrier years. Going by that record, it would not be likely.

Not that any of this relevant to Ramsey's value in the trade market.

crazyhorse1 wrote:

box wrote:Numbers dont mean JACK! Why do you think all these other guys kept playing past 3 yrs? How about intangibles like leadership, game management, heart, desire? Need i go on? Big Ben got them, and not the numbers but he has a ring cause of all the things except the NUMBERS!!!!! Please, been watching ball a long time, and Pram just dont have IT

Very scientific. I yield to your obvious superior instincts because I can tell you're rich.

crazyhorse1 wrote:P.S. Ramsey's record can't be tracked by his starts. He had spot appearances even when he started.As near as I can figure, by quarters, he put over twenty on the board 8 of 21 times...still--that's a bad stat too because one has to count several games as one in some cases. Also, it's not an average, which is also a bad stat, but at least better reflects how much scoring potential he actually represents, which is considerable.

crazyhorse1 wrote:Putting in Ramsey was an obvious move to make and Gibbs knows it. Its a major reason he's hired Saunders.

I must have missed the press conference where Gibbs admitted he was no longer capable of making basic personnel decisions.

FanfromAnnapolis wrote:

I must have missed the press conference where Gibbs admitted he was no longer capable of making basic personnel decisions.

It was the same press conference where he (finally!) admitted that the game has definitely passed him by, that his offense was too antiquated to be successful, and that starting Mark Brunell was the worst decision that he ever made. He grieved the fact that he had drafted neither Kellen Winslow II nor Mike Williams--even when we needed a WR badly and didn't do a thing about it in the offseason (and instead let our 2 best receivers, Coles and Gardner, go), and lamented that he instead picked up the no-names Sean Taylor and Carlos Rogers. Also, he apologized profusely for getting Clinton Portis, a running back that clearly wans't fit for this system and style of play.

runbillo wrote:Why not trade Lavar for Abe? 2 high priced players that have been hurt and not played a full season in 2 years.

Steve Spurrier III wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:P.S. Ramsey's record can't be tracked by his starts. He had spot appearances even when he started.As near as I can figure, by quarters, he put over twenty on the board 8 of 21 times...still--that's a bad stat too because one has to count several games as one in some cases. Also, it's not an average, which is also a bad stat, but at least better reflects how much scoring potential he actually represents, which is considerable.

You were the one who said to "check his record". What were you referring to?

crazyhorse1 wrote:Putting in Ramsey was an obvious move to make and Gibbs knows it. Its a major reason he's hired Saunders.

I must have missed the press conference where Gibbs admitted he was no longer capable of making basic personnel decisions.

SkinsFanInHawai'i wrote:Ramsey to Dallas?

http://cowboys.scout.com/2/503099.html

crazyhorse1 wrote:

FanfromAnnapolis wrote:

I must have missed the press conference where Gibbs admitted he was no longer capable of making basic personnel decisions.

It was the same press conference where he (finally!) admitted that the game has definitely passed him by, that his offense was too antiquated to be successful, and that starting Mark Brunell was the worst decision that he ever made. He grieved the fact that he had drafted neither Kellen Winslow II nor Mike Williams--even when we needed a WR badly and didn't do a thing about it in the offseason (and instead let our 2 best receivers, Coles and Gardner, go), and lamented that he instead picked up the no-names Sean Taylor and Carlos Rogers. Also, he apologized profusely for getting Clinton Portis, a running back that clearly wans't fit for this system and style of play.

Thank for your support. I thought I was the only one there.

crazyhorse1 wrote:

Steve Spurrier III wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:P.S. Ramsey's record can't be tracked by his starts. He had spot appearances even when he started.As near as I can figure, by quarters, he put over twenty on the board 8 of 21 times...still--that's a bad stat too because one has to count several games as one in some cases. Also, it's not an average, which is also a bad stat, but at least better reflects how much scoring potential he actually represents, which is considerable.

You were the one who said to "check his record". What were you referring to?

crazyhorse1 wrote:Putting in Ramsey was an obvious move to make and Gibbs knows it. Its a major reason he's hired Saunders.

I must have missed the press conference where Gibbs admitted he was no longer capable of making basic personnel decisions.

I expected you to see at a glance exactly what you saw-- that even using stats that are imperfect and do not favor Ramsey for obvious reasons I chose to cite, the chances were one out of three that he would lead the skins to a 20 plus day against Seattle. I also assert that Brunell, to most rational observers, had virtually no chance of doing so. He had been a toothless duff for two straight games because of his injury and was still injured, as well as old and tired. He's also terrible playing hurt. There's no way he should have been on that field against Seattle. I'm a Gibbs supporter too, but not so crazy about the man the obvious doesn't rear its head once in a while.
He is making the right move bringing in Saunders. He can no longer handle certain decisions that are out of his comfort zone.

Sources say Jets talking Abraham deals at combine

Upset at having been tagged as a franchise player for a second straight year, New York Jets defensive end John Abraham told the New York Post over the weekend that he has "overstayed [his] welcome" with the club and that "it's time to move on."

Team officials apparently agree.

Multiple league sources said that the Jets have been offering Abraham in trade talks during the NFL scouting combine in Indianapolis, and have discussed potential scenarios with a number of teams. It is believed that the talks have not moved to the substantive stage with any suitors and that a deal is not imminent, but that the Jets' intention remains to deal Abraham, probably for a package of draft choices.

Among the several teams with whom the Jets have spoken in recent days are the Washington Redskins and the Denver Broncos.

In a move that had been anticipated, the Jets last week designated Abraham a franchise player, essentially making him a one-year qualifying offer of $8.33 million, but also severely limiting his mobility in free agency. New York used the franchise tag a year ago, as well, to retain Abraham, and he missed all the offseason programs and training camp before signing the one-year deal, worth $6.66 million just days before the start of the season.

The team's rationale in using the franchise restriction this year, however, seems aimed at trying to fetch something in return for Abraham, who prefers a long-term contract. In a statement, new Jets general manager Mike Tannenbaum said last week that applying the franchise tag to Abraham "speaks volumes about what type of player we feel he is." That has not kept the Jets, though, from speaking to other teams about the six-year veteran and three-time Pro Bowl performer.

It is not known what the Jets are seeking in return for Abraham, but any trade would certainly have to include a first-round draft choice. Abraham might be able to force the hand of the cap-strapped Jets by signing the qualifying offer, which would guarantee the money. The $8.33 million already counts against the New York cap for 2006, but guaranteeing the money might be a tough swallow for a club facing a major overhaul because of a debilitating cap overage.

Without specifically citing Abraham, Denver defensive coordinator Larry Coyer allowed at the combine that the Broncos hope to add a pass-rusher in the offseason. Despite statistically ranking No. 15 in total defense in 2005, the Broncos were 29th in defense versus the pass, and a big part of that was that Denver generated just 28 sacks, third fewest in the league. No Broncos defender had more than four sacks in 2005.

"I know this about [head coach] Mike Shanahan," said Coyer. "There will be a move."

Washington, which was said to be enamored with Abraham a year ago, also needs a consistent upfield pass-rush threat. Although the Redskins had 35 sacks in 2005, the lack of a pass rusher means that inventive defensive coordinator Gregg Williams has to work that much harder to create sack opportunities. The only Redskins defensive lineman with more than four sacks last season was end Phillip Daniels, but six of his eight sacks came in the final three games, including a four-sack performance.

One problem shared by both Denver and Washington is the state of their respective salary caps. Both teams are squeezed by the spending limit and, like other franchises around the league, are reluctant to make any kind of move until the NFL's collective bargaining issues are resolved. Plus, since he is not under contract, Abraham cannot be dealt until he either signs the one-year qualifying offer or a long-term contract.

Termed by Cleveland Browns coach Romeo Crennel as "head and shoulders" above any pass rusher available this offseason, Abraham certainly is a proven sack man. One of the Jets' four first-round selections in the 2000 draft, Abraham has consistently been among the top pass rushers in the NFL, when healthy. Limited to just 19 appearances in 2003-2004 because of injuries, Abraham played in all 16 games for the Jets in 2005, only the third time in six years he has played a full schedule.

He registered 67 tackles, 10½ sacks, six forced fumbles, one recovery and two passes defensed. For his career, the former South Carolina star has 328 tackles, 53½ sacks, 18 forced fumbles, five recoveries and eight pass deflections in 73 games. Players of his ilk don't often become available in the league, but the relationship between Abraham and Jets officials may have reached the point where a trade would be the best scenario for both parties.

SirSmizzy wrote:If no deal gets worked out. What happens to Ramsey? Does he get cut?

crazyhorse1 wrote:I expected you to see at a glance exactly what you saw-- that even using stats that are imperfect and do not favor Ramsey for obvious reasons I chose to cite, the chances were one out of three that he would lead the skins to a 20 plus day against Seattle. I also assert that Brunell, to most rational observers, had virtually no chance of doing so. He had been a toothless duff for two straight games because of his injury and was still injured, as well as old and tired. He's also terrible playing hurt. There's no way he should have been on that field against Seattle. I'm a Gibbs supporter too, but not so crazy about the man the obvious doesn't rear its head once in a while.
He is making the right move bringing in Saunders. He can no longer handle certain decisions that are out of his comfort zone.

crazyhorse1 wrote:You don't think Ramsey's likely to get the Skins three scores in a game? Check his record.

Steve Spurrier III wrote: Would he have been better than the injured Brunell? Perhaps, but that is completley irrelevant to Ramsey's trade value on the market today.

Redskin in Canada wrote:But even most importantly, would good stats -and- a good performance based on leadership, physical skills and judgment (not necessarily measured by stats in my book) have added value to Patrick?

Steve Spurrier III wrote:But I don't really see how this is relevant either. Ramsey's performance to date is what it is, and that is what teams are going to be looking at.