Brunell / GIBBS

sch1977 · Post by **sch1977** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:42 pm

air_hog wrote:Here are some facts:

-In 3 series Patrick Ramsey had 5 completions over 10 yards, and 1 over 25.

-Patrick Ramsey had 2 completions under 10 yards

-Patrick Ramsey had 1 TD (called back)

-Patrick Ramsey threw an INT on his 2nd pass attempt

-In 6 series Mark Brunell had 3 completions for over 10 yards and 0 over 25.

-Mark Brunell had 5 completions for under 10 yards.

-Mark Brunell threw an INT on his second pass attempt (called back thankfully or we might have lost)

So those are just some quick hits, you decide want type of offense you want.

How do you know what plays Gibbs called? You cant fault Brunell for not completing a 25 yard pass, when a 5 and out was called

SkinzCanes · Post by **SkinzCanes** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:45 pm

My guess is that if Brunell is ineffective, he goes to Ramsey.

What do you mean "if"?? When has Brunell been anything other than ineffective?? Last year he had a completion percentage that was below 50% and had a qb rating of 63.9. So far this year he's managed to throw for a lowly 70 yards in 3 quarters of play. Last year he also manged to average only 5 yards a throw. That is TERRIBLE. Since 2001 Brunell's numbers have been declinging so what makes you think that he's all of a sudden going to get better at the age of 35??

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:50 pm

Here are some facts:

-In 3 series Patrick Ramsey had 5 completions over 10 yards, and 1 over 25.

-Patrick Ramsey had 2 completions under 10 yards

-Patrick Ramsey had 1 TD (called back)

-Patrick Ramsey threw an INT on his 2nd pass attempt

This is hilarious!! If you wanna consider Ramsey having 1 TD that was called back, as fact, then consider other "facts" as well.

- Brunell missed 34 TD passes last year by about 25 TD passes.

-Brunell almost won all the games he started last year.

-Brunell came within 250 yards of passing for 400 yards in the home opener last year.

The bottom line is this: You can't say "Consider these facts" and say that Ramsey had 1 TD pass, and oh, by the way, it was called back. A TD pass is a TD pass if it's NOT called back, not if it IS called back.

ArizonaHOG · Post by **ArizonaHOG** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:52 pm

air_hog wrote:Here are some facts:

-In 3 series Patrick Ramsey had 5 completions over 10 yards, and 1 over 25.

-Patrick Ramsey had 2 completions under 10 yards

-Patrick Ramsey had 1 TD (called back)

-Patrick Ramsey threw an INT on his 2nd pass attempt

-In 6 series Mark Brunell had 3 completions for over 10 yards and 0 over 25.

-Mark Brunell had 5 completions for under 10 yards.

-Mark Brunell threw an INT on his second pass attempt (called back thankfully or we might have lost)

So those are just some quick hits, you decide want type of offense you want.

I want an offense that wins games, or at least does not lose games we dominate on defense. I've been a Ramsey supporter and I support Brunell now. I just want to win. I'm glad this was not my decision because I just don't know what the right answer is. I trust Gibbs' decision-making. I wonder how the rest of the team feels because that will probably be the most important part of this whole deal. If they buy it and are willing to lay it on the line, we'll be fine. If they don't like it we could be in trouble.

Primetime42 · Post by **Primetime42** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:55 pm

sch1977 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:The season is over!!!!

Now what happens if Brunell gets hurt? We end up with Campbell as the starting QB. He is a year or three away from being ready to play!
I hope Denver enjoys the #1 draft choice next year!

Thats what they said when Maddox got hurt last year in Pittsburg

Brunell is hardly Ben Roethlisberger.

sch1977 · Post by **sch1977** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:56 pm

Primetime42 wrote:
sch1977 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:The season is over!!!!

Now what happens if Brunell gets hurt? We end up with Campbell as the starting QB. He is a year or three away from being ready to play!
I hope Denver enjoys the #1 draft choice next year!

Thats what they said when Maddox got hurt last year in Pittsburg
Brunell is hardly Ben Roethlisberger.

Campbell, not Brunell. Read more carefully

The Hogster · Post by **The Hogster** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:58 pm

The rest of the team probably feels the same. They want to win. Right now, looking from the sidelines you have to be frustrated with the qb giving the ball away once every other possesion.

I don't know the answer, but Brunnell may prove the critics wrong. Point is we don't know yet, we will have to wait and see.

If he goes out and leads us to a victory on the road on MNF against our most hated rivalry, then everyone will shut up and be happy.

Primetime42 · Post by **Primetime42** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:58 pm

sch1977 wrote:
Primetime42 wrote:
sch1977 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:The season is over!!!!

Now what happens if Brunell gets hurt? We end up with Campbell as the starting QB. He is a year or three away from being ready to play!
I hope Denver enjoys the #1 draft choice next year!

Thats what they said when Maddox got hurt last year in Pittsburg
Brunell is hardly Ben Roethlisberger.

Campbell, not Brunell. Read more carefully

Campbell won't be active for another 3 or 4 weeks.

AZHog · Post by **AZHog** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:07 pm

The Hogster wrote:The rest of the team probably feels the same. They want to win. Right now, looking from the sidelines you have to be frustrated with the qb giving the ball away once every other possesion.

I don't know the answer, but Brunnell may prove the critics wrong. Point is we don't know yet, we will have to wait and see.

If he goes out and leads us to a victory on the road on MNF against our most hated rivalry, then everyone will shut up and be happy.

I couldn't agree more. "The proof is in the pudding" and if we win on Monday night, in Dallas, the decision will probably make alot more sense.

ArizonaHOG · Post by **ArizonaHOG** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:08 pm

JPFair wrote:A lot of people will argue that Ramsey wasn't given enough time, but this move, if it was going to be made at all, had to be made sooner rather than later. There's just no benefit to dragging it out week after week waiting to see if Ramsey can/will improve his decision making. To make this move after winning a game and having a record of 1-0 is the right time. If the Redskins started the year 2-3 or 1-4 or something like that, it would be too big of a hole to climb out of. With us at 1-0, and Ramsey showing no signs of improving his decisions in the pocket (apparently), the time to make the move is now, not later.

I think Gibbs would have made this move after the game, whether we won or lost, and whether or not Ramsey got knocked out with the injury. He was clearly pissed off at the interception, and Ramsey made serious mental mistakes. He badly overthrew receivers, and underthrew them. I'd rather have Gibbs make this move while we're still on an even keel with the rest of the division, than being in a situation of having to bring Brunell in to rescue a sinking ship. Brunell can now come in with confidence, and not feel like the weight of the world is on his shoulders to try and salvage our season.

Gibbs' patience with turnovers was the key factor in his decision. I'm a little startled by the decision, but I support it 100% and eagerly await the next few weeks.

The big question that comes now, though, is does Gibbs go to Ramsey if Brunell is ineffective, or gets injured. Or, does he pass the reigns over to Campbell. My guess is that if Brunell is ineffective, he goes to Ramsey. But, I think it's as good as done that Campbell will be the #2 man next year, and Ramsey will be with another team.

Well said....I agree 100%.

ChrisHanburger · Post by **ChrisHanburger** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:09 pm

I look at it this way. They both suck. The Skins' offense will be mediocre with either Ramsey or Brunell at the helm. That pick Ramsey threw really pissed me off. I don't think he's got the goods. He's had plenty of years to develop and learn but still looks horrible. I'll be glad to see him get his trade request and be on his way. Same with Brunell who seems to create a "fire drill" on every other play. I'm eager to see Jason Campbell playing. Not this year. But maybe next. He's the future of this organization. Not Brunell or Ramsey.

That said, I have to agree that this switch does seem pretty fast and feels pre-meditated.

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:09 pm

Quote:
My guess is that if Brunell is ineffective, he goes to Ramsey.

What do you mean "if"?? When has Brunell been anything other than ineffective?? Last year he had a completion percentage that was below 50% and had a qb rating of 63.9. So far this year he's managed to throw for a lowly 70 yards in 3 quarters of play. Last year he also manged to average only 5 yards a throw

I'm not quite sure I understand your question. When you say "What do you mean "if"??" it almost sounds as if you know what Brunells numbers are going to be for the rest of the season. Also, when you ask "When has Brunell been anything other than ineffective" it almost sounds like you don't realize he went to the pro-bowl not too long ago, and led the Jaguars to the AFC Championship game. Granted, that was in the past, so you can't use that to his favor now. Oh, but wait a minute: So was his performance last year. Hmmm. So, please explain a little more, cuz you have me confused when you say "What do you mean "if"" Brunell is ineffective. It's almost as if you can tell me EXACTLY what Brunell is going to do in terms of running the offense. Damn, you're good. You should go to a bookie and ask for some odds on what Brunells numbers would be, cuz you have the inside track on what he's going to do.

SkinzCanes · Post by **SkinzCanes** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:11 pm

Brunell wasnt benched in J'Ville because of performance, he was benched because they just paid 20 million to a rookie QB.

The Jaguars wouldn't have drafted a rookie high in the draft and paid him that much money if they thought that Brunell had anything left.

redskincity · Post by **redskincity** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:13 pm

I think the reason Joe is getting rid on Pat maybe because he is locking onto receivers

SkinzCanes · Post by **SkinzCanes** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:16 pm

I'm not quite sure I understand your question. When you say "What do you mean "if"??" it almost sounds as if you know what Brunells numbers are going to be for the rest of the season. Also, when you ask "When has Brunell been anything other than ineffective" it almost sounds like you don't realize he went to the pro-bowl not too long ago, and led the Jaguars to the AFC Championship game. Granted, that was in the past, so you can't use that to his favor now. Oh, but wait a minute: So was his performance last year. Hmmm. So, please explain a little more, cuz you have me confused when you say "What do you mean "if"" Brunell is ineffective. It's almost as if you can tell me EXACTLY what Brunell is going to do in terms of running the offense. Damn, you're good. You should go to a bookie and put ask for some odds on what Brunells numbers would be, cuz you have the inside track on what he's going to do.

Obviously nobody can predict exactly what his numbers are going to be but if you look at the last 4-5 seasons you can clearly see that his stats have been in a downward decline. At the age of 35 Brunell isn't all of a sudden going to turn things around and start playing the way he did in his prime. Ramsey is still relatively young and as somebody pointed out in another thread, his td/int ratio over his first three years is better than Steve Young's or Troy Aikman's were. Ramsey has room to grow and Brunell doesn't, so what's the point of putting Brunell in??

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:19 pm

I support Gibbs, I support Brunell, I hope we trade Patrick somewhere where he can play and succeed and I have little faith for the season, but I'll still be here watching and rooting them on every week hoping to see what Gibbs must already see.

Redskins1974 · Post by **Redskins1974** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:19 pm

A while back, Gibbs said something to the effect of

- if drafting or bringing in another QB is going to ruffle the starter's feathers, if he's going to feel pressure from that, than how's that person going to react under the pressure of a playoff game? A Super Bowl? A MNF game? -

I'm completely paraphrashing but I tend to agree with him. Pressure's a tough thing to deal with and you have to be mentally strong to survive.

No matter what happens, I wish the guy the best as a person.

skinsfano28 · Post by **skinsfano28** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:21 pm

brunell was benched because he had a bursa sac in his left elbow that exploded...that's a heck of an injury, and byron leftwich is a beast anyway and he was going to play whether it was that season or the season after. you can't base the benching of brunell in jacksonville on "he had nothing left" you dont draft a qb after your qb retires/has nothing left. you draft for the future, that's the very POINT of the draft. are you saying we drafted jason campbell because ramsey/brunell have nothing left, that they are useless? if you are, i'd say you need a lobotomy, we drafted for the future, which may come sooner than expected, but hopefully we can win with brunell and campbell can learn to manage a game (he's already half way there, i am AMAZED at how good he has looked at managing games). yeah he's 36, but he's also got something to prove; that he can win in this league, and he can be a constant in an organization riddled with turnover of coaching and personnel. brunell is finally healthy after two years of being injured, whether it was his elbow or his hamstring. the latter took away what made him what he was--his mobility. he is moving 110% better now as opposed to last year, and that gives him his ability to make plays back.

stop whining about ramsey getting benched or blah blah blah--joe is doing this for the good of the team, and the good of the franchise, and i will always, ALWAYS trust in gibbs.

the end!

Scottskins · Post by **Scottskins** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:21 pm

Count me in the camp of let's see Campbell this season too ;-)

I can't imagine it happening, but I also didn't think Gibbs would pull Ramsey so quick. New era of Gibbs too apparently lol.

air_hog · Post by **air_hog** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:24 pm

I'm not trying to hide Ramsey's bad stats like his fumbles, I was just trying to show his yardage and his style of play compared to Brunells.

Now I am all for the team and if Coach Gibbs feels Brunell gives us a better chance to win, then I respect his feeling.

It's just that after watching Ramsey and Brunell yesterday, Ramsey showed signs of a winning attitude and big play ability, while Brunell reminded me of the leauges 3rd worst offense that he ran last year.

Now sure Brunell was hurt last year, but after watching him play yesterday in Regular Season game status, he still looked like that wimp from last year who could not hit his WR 10 yards down field.

I just think Brunell is too conservative to win, and sure you can say it is because he was running the plays he was given, and if that's the case, then I like the Ramsey and his plays because with those crappy 2 yard hitch plays I don't think we will go anywhere.

But hey, maybe Mark will prove me wrong, or maybe he won't. We'll just have to see what happens on Monday.

stevejrfan78 · Post by **stevejrfan78** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:25 pm

I look at it like this I'm a Patrick Ramsey supporter so i'mm not too pleased. I think brunell will be injured in the next 3 games and Ramsey will come in and light it up and at the end of the season will move on to a team that appreciates him and i hope he does. I will buy a Ramsey jersey for whatever team he ends up on(except Dallas sorry Patrick) but other than that good luck Patrick no matter what happens.

skinsfanno9 · Post by **skinsfanno9** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:27 pm

Ramsey deserves to go to a team that he has a chance of starting on. Clearly, the Redskins are not it. We should pack Ramsey off to whomever we can get a good deal for and let the Rook take over if Brunell gets hurt.

JPFair · Post by **JPFair** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:28 pm

At the age of 35 Brunell isn't all of a sudden going to turn things around and start playing the way he did in his prime.

And you know this, how? Have you spoken to him personally about it? Have you met and discussed the matter with the coaching staff? Have you monitored his progress over the pre-season on a daily basis? Have you been with him in meetings and talked to him about mistakes? Have you tried to teach him about the problems associated with turnovers? In short, have you been with him every day during the pre-season, over the course of last season, and have you made a career out of coaching football games and have you won three Super Bowls with three different QB's?

Or are you, like the rest of us, just an average fan who wants to see the Redskins win?

skinsfanno9 · Post by **skinsfanno9** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:29 pm

AZHog wrote:Brunell is far from perfect.

I'm maintaining that something happened in the locker room at half-time following the injury. It must have been pretty big.

This is an interesting thought. I hope so - at least this would make sense.

doroshjt · Post by **doroshjt** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:29 pm

Here is a fact. Take the under on all redskins games this year and you'll come out way ahead.