The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

funbunch65 wrote:

El Mexican wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:To spell it out: I was agreeing with you, and providing the one counter point you KNEW someone was going to make. (likely all in caps just like that). To wit, Brady WAS a lottery ticket. The great exception from the norm.

Right. Tom Brady will from now on be in the discussion of what was the greatest draft day steal of all time. To use him as a counter-example when talking about how risky low picks can be is insane.

True, but wasn't Mark Rypien also a sixth round pick?

Before you guys spank the heck out my post, I'll clarify that I'm NOT in anyway comparing Tom Brady to Rypien.

All I'm saying is that both were sixth round picks and both have won Superbowls.

I think Joe Gibbs saw something similiar when he took Campbell. JC has an inmense amount of talent, but it needs to be perfected and he needs to be motivated. Rypien had to be pushed to excel, just as JC. And he damn well did during the 1991 SB season. Entering that season the BIG question was wether number 11 could overcome his frecuent mistakes and lead the team.

Maybe JC just needs a little more confidence in himself to succeed. Does he have enough fire in the belly to elevate his play in with that the hole team?

I hope so.

As a Redskins fan I'll take Rypien over Brady anyday.

Only a Redskins fan would ever say that.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Champsturf wrote:So, your point is that you like an idea, but not actually following through with it?

I neither said nor meant that, go back and re-read.

Champsturf wrote:You keep saying 16 games...so what? Campbell gets all the snaps with the starters and Colt gets exactly squat. If Campbell can't do it during the games after practicing with the starters, why not see if Colt can? What good is having him on the roster if you don't know if he can even play? According to your logic, since there are only 16 games, Colt will NEVER see the field until the coaches have decided that Campbell does't cut it. After all, there are only 16 games and they need to try and let Campbell mature. Since 3 years hasn't done it, I'm not so sure why you think two games would make that much difference. How much "development" did you think was accomplished those last two games?

Colt could play if JC got injured as has been repeatedly raised by others. He would play if the coaches felt he merited it. I haven't seen anyone who argued Colt should play the last two games base that on the Redskin coaches assessment, so I'm assuming it's their own. If the coaches said they were souring on JC and/or thought Colt could in fact be Tom Brady I'd be fine with playing him too.

Actually, Collins was slated at #2, so Colt would be down on the list. I don't remember Brady being very clouted prior to Bledsoe's injury and the result of playing him, so how would anyone know? You're a Michigan fan and I'm a Buckeye fan...His name doesn't bring flashes of superstardom in college, does it? My whole point is that we may never know what Colt has. I'm not saying he's worth a crap or not, just that taking 2 games (meaningless, from a playoff standpoint) from the starter who appears to be digressing to find out if the draft pick was a waste or not seems like good business to me.

Champsturf wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Champsturf wrote:So, your point is that you like an idea, but not actually following through with it?

I neither said nor meant that, go back and re-read.

Champsturf wrote:You keep saying 16 games...so what? Campbell gets all the snaps with the starters and Colt gets exactly squat. If Campbell can't do it during the games after practicing with the starters, why not see if Colt can? What good is having him on the roster if you don't know if he can even play? According to your logic, since there are only 16 games, Colt will NEVER see the field until the coaches have decided that Campbell does't cut it. After all, there are only 16 games and they need to try and let Campbell mature. Since 3 years hasn't done it, I'm not so sure why you think two games would make that much difference. How much "development" did you think was accomplished those last two games?

Colt could play if JC got injured as has been repeatedly raised by others. He would play if the coaches felt he merited it. I haven't seen anyone who argued Colt should play the last two games base that on the Redskin coaches assessment, so I'm assuming it's their own. If the coaches said they were souring on JC and/or thought Colt could in fact be Tom Brady I'd be fine with playing him too.

Actually, Collins was slated at #2, so Colt would be down on the list. I don't remember Brady being very clouted prior to Bledsoe's injury and the result of playing him, so how would anyone know? You're a Michigan fan and I'm a Buckeye fan...His name doesn't bring flashes of superstardom in college, does it? My whole point is that we may never know what Colt has. I'm not saying he's worth a crap or not, just that taking 2 games (meaningless, from a playoff standpoint) from the starter who appears to be digressing to find out if the draft pick was a waste or not seems like good business to me.

Truth is no one can say with 100 per cent certainty that a player will fail until you see him playing against first-string defenses in games that actually matter.

Until then, it's somewhat of a mystery.

So let me understand this If a player was selected after the 6th round and then was on a team that won a Super Bowl we can use that as evidence that the draft is a crap shoot DUH!

It has been said that a team of players selected after the 4th round would most likely be favored over a team made up of players selected in the first 3 rounds

winning or not winning a Super Bowl does not make or break an NFL career - teams win Super Bowls not players



the fact is, the teams that do better in the draft are not "lucky" - they have people who are involved with adding players through the draft or by any other means that they think will both make a contribution AND make the other players on the team better .


Campbell and Brennan will compete with someone other than Collins for our QB position this year and while Campbell may be the "starter" in the early going I hope we find a way through a change of QB OR a change in game planning to put some points on the board by the begining of the season.

El Mexican wrote:wasn't Mark Rypien also a sixth round pick?

Before you guys spank the heck out my post, I'll clarify that I'm NOT in anyway comparing Tom Brady to Rypien.

All I'm saying is that both were sixth round picks and both have won Superbowls.

I think Joe Gibbs saw something similiar when he took Campbell. JC has an inmense amount of talent, but it needs to be perfected and he needs to be motivated. Rypien had to be pushed to excel, just as JC. And he damn well did during the 1991 SB season. Entering that season the BIG question was wether number 11 could overcome his frecuent mistakes and lead the team.

Maybe JC just needs a little more confidence in himself to succeed. Does he have enough fire in the belly to elevate his play and with that the mentality of the whole team?

I hope so.

True. In the Super Bowl year, Rypien was a good quarterback who had one of the all time great OLs. He could have tea parties in the backfield and have time to throw a pass. We gave up 9 sacks over the entire season and if I remember right like 4 of them were in the last game. Given that sort of protection any competent NFL QB should shred a D. No knock, but he was never a great QB, just a good one.

But as an argument to start Colt (which you said you're not making), you have to go back and think of individuals who succeeded with the astromical odds of the thousands of QBs not drafted in the first round, much less the sixth. The stats are staggering against it. I can give you a list of individual lottery winners. Again SOMEONE does in fact win the lottery, but it's not a retirement plan.

That said, if Colt continues to develop and the opportunity arises he could at some point play and maybe even start. But the argument now is between people who want to continue to develop JC who has 3 years total NFL experience and is in his first working with Zorn and Zorn's system when there are 16 games a year and those who think you don't need to develop QBs, they are like tables and JC will play next year like this year and Colt will play this year like if he had 10 years experience. Development's irrelevant, you just dump out your penny jar and see if you have any Indian Heads that are worth a few bucks, either you do or don't. People aren't like that and the NFL is a tough business and of the players the most so on QBs. That they need to be developed is apparently just lost on some.

A few others to consider:

Sonny Jurgensen (yes...4th round)

Johnny Unitas.

(Unitas replaced George Shaw, who was a fine rookie QB but who hurt his knee in the second season. Johnny U was not great his first year, but after that...we know. Shaw's knee recovered, but Shaw never recovered his job.)

Jay Schroeder, Rypien, Stan Humphries. Jay was a third round who only played one year (or so) at UCLA before signing a baseball contract. He had a couple of good years fro the Redskins. In 1986, the 12-4 Skins were second best team in the NFL, losing the NFC Chapmionship. Humphries got on the Joe Gibbs "too lazy to play" list, but learned from it and took the Chargers to the SB.

Joe Montana was a third round pick.

Boomer Esiason was a second round, although his class had a lot of QBs...I think Kelley, Young, Marino, and Darrell Green amng the non QBs.

Warren Moon was undrafted.

Jim Ray Hart was undrafted

Just a few that came to mind...

QB may be the one position where draft round is most overrated. The number of great first round QBs is dwarfed by the number of first round busts. Mostly it's who makes the most of their opportunities. There are many HOF QBs that were not first rounders.

JSPB22 wrote:QB may be the one position where draft round is most overrated. The number of great first round QBs is dwarfed by the number of first round busts. Mostly it's who makes the most of their opportunities. There are many HOF QBs that were not first rounders.

Maybe that used to be true, but it's not any more.

When you look at Hall of Fame QBs who started playing in the 80's and later, they're all 1st rounders.

Troy Aikman (1st round,1st overall)
John Elway (1st round,1st overall)
Jim Kelly (1st round,14th overall)
Dan Marino (1st round, 27th overall)
Steve Young (1st round, supplemental draft)

So...of the 5 HoF QBs who started playing in the 80's...all were 1st round picks.

Arguably, you could include Joe Montana and Warren Moon (they were late 70's), who were drafted in the 3rd round and undrafted, respectively. Even expanding that criteria to include them...5 of 7 QBs were 1st round picks.

It's a position where overall, as scouts have gotten better at their jobs, the great ones were drafted high.

PulpExposure wrote:

JSPB22 wrote:QB may be the one position where draft round is most overrated. The number of great first round QBs is dwarfed by the number of first round busts. Mostly it's who makes the most of their opportunities. There are many HOF QBs that were not first rounders.

Maybe that used to be true, but it's not any more.

When you look at Hall of Fame QBs who started playing in the 80's and later, they're all 1st rounders.

Troy Aikman (1st round,1st overall)
John Elway (1st round,1st overall)
Jim Kelly (1st round,14th overall)
Dan Marino (1st round, 27th overall)
Steve Young (1st round, supplemental draft)

So...of the 5 HoF QBs who started playing in the 80's...all were 1st round picks.

Arguably, you could include Joe Montana and Warren Moon (they were late 70's), who were drafted in the 3rd round and undrafted, respectively. Even expanding that criteria to include them...5 of 7 QBs were 1st round picks.

It's a position where overall, as scouts have gotten better at their jobs, the great ones were drafted high.

You can go ahead and add Peyton Manning (first overall) to that list and you could make an argument for McNabb (second overall). Ben Rothlisberger (11th overall) looks like a likely candidate. Even Drew Brees is making a case for himself and while he wasn't a first-rounder, he was the 32nd pick overall.

Fios wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

JSPB22 wrote:QB may be the one position where draft round is most overrated. The number of great first round QBs is dwarfed by the number of first round busts. Mostly it's who makes the most of their opportunities. There are many HOF QBs that were not first rounders.

Maybe that used to be true, but it's not any more.

When you look at Hall of Fame QBs who started playing in the 80's and later, they're all 1st rounders.

Troy Aikman (1st round,1st overall)
John Elway (1st round,1st overall)
Jim Kelly (1st round,14th overall)
Dan Marino (1st round, 27th overall)
Steve Young (1st round, supplemental draft)

So...of the 5 HoF QBs who started playing in the 80's...all were 1st round picks.

Arguably, you could include Joe Montana and Warren Moon (they were late 70's), who were drafted in the 3rd round and undrafted, respectively. Even expanding that criteria to include them...5 of 7 QBs were 1st round picks.

It's a position where overall, as scouts have gotten better at their jobs, the great ones were drafted high.

You can go ahead and add Peyton Manning (first overall) to that list and you could make an argument for McNabb (second overall). Ben Rothlisberger (11th overall) looks like a likely candidate. Even Drew Brees is making a case for himself and while he wasn't a first-rounder, he was the 32nd pick overall.

And Brett Favre, 2nd round, 33rd overall. And then Brady, the 6th round lottery win.

Pretty much, Brady is the extreme outlier here.

I don't necessarily have to have the next HoFer.. I want a competent, efficient QB that can progress and learn the system. So far we don't have that. We've won SuperBowls without 'em in the past, and we can do it in the future. I mean, really, is Eli a HoFer?

VetSkinsFan wrote:I don't necessarily have to have the next HoFer.. I want a competent, efficient QB that can progress and learn the system. So far we don't have that. We've won SuperBowls without 'em in the past, and we can do it in the future. I mean, really, is Eli a HoFer?

No, but he plays on a much better team (all-around) than the Redskins.

He also was a 1st round pick

VetSkinsFan wrote:I mean, really, is Eli a HoFer?

If he had half a brain yes. He has the tools physically. Jason doesn't have the tools.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Jason doesn't have the tools.

I disagree. JC may be hold the ball too long in certain situations, but he has many skills and qualities worthy of a starting QB in this league, and is why he has been and was a high draft pick. And I'd bet if he was released, there'd be a dozen teams in line to sign him and he'd be the starter for at least half of those teams.

SkinsFreak wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Jason doesn't have the tools.

I disagree. JC may be hold the ball too long in certain situations, but he has many skills and qualities worthy of a starting QB in this league, and is why he has been and was a high draft pick. And I'd bet if he was released, there'd be a dozen teams in line to sign him and he'd be the starter for at least half of those teams.

I'll take that bet. I think Ryan Leaf had a lot of those same qualities...

Champsturf wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Jason doesn't have the tools.

I disagree. JC may be hold the ball too long in certain situations, but he has many skills and qualities worthy of a starting QB in this league, and is why he has been and was a high draft pick. And I'd bet if he was released, there'd be a dozen teams in line to sign him and he'd be the starter for at least half of those teams.

I'll take that bet. I think Ryan Leaf had a lot of those same qualities...

I can only count about 5 teams that would even be in the market for a QB.
NYJ
Minn
Det
TB
SF
CHI
And I'm not sure Jason is an upgrade for half those teams??

He'd be an obvious upgrade for all those teams mentioned. Also you missed KC, Buffalo, Miami, Carolina (Delomme is getting old with no other QB on the roster), Oakland, Seattle and Houston.

That's 13 teams who'd probably be in a line to sign him with at least half he'd be starting for.... that's what Champsturf said in the first place.

Also, I'm totally unconvinced by the amateur scouts on this board. Campbell hold onto the ball for too long? Unless you're Jaws or some other professional who watches game tape 8 hours a day just shut up about a guy's mechanics and possible future in the league. It's embarrassing. (Not you personally).

Campbell is an accurate passer who has the confidence of his teammates and who's also going into his first consecutive season in the same system.

That's huge for a QB who's also getting some improved weapons and a better line.

Skinsfan55 wrote:He'd be an obvious upgrade for all those teams mentioned. Also you missed KC, Buffalo, Miami, Carolina (Delomme is getting old with no other QB on the roster), Oakland, Seattle and Houston.

That's 13 teams who'd probably be in a line to sign him with at least half he'd be starting for.... that's what Champsturf said in the first place.

Also, I'm totally unconvinced by the amateur scouts on this board. Campbell hold onto the ball for too long? Unless you're Jaws or some other professional who watches game tape 8 hours a day just shut up about a guy's mechanics and possible future in the league. It's embarrassing. (Not you personally).

Campbell is an accurate passer who has the confidence of his teammates and who's also going into his first consecutive season in the same system.

That's huge for a QB who's also getting some improved weapons and a better line.

Buff loves Edwards
KC like Thigpen
and Fox alrady stated he's sticking with Delomme
Oakland has Russell
Miami has Pennington
JC is not an upgrade to Garcia in the WCO
I don't think Minn would call him a upgrade for Jason
And he is not a upgrade if Farve comes back

DEHog wrote:
Buff loves Edwards
KC like Thigpen
and Fox alrady stated he's sticking with Delomme
Oakland has Russell
Miami has Pennington
JC is not an upgrade to Garcia in the WCO
I don't think Minn would call him a upgrade for Jason
And he is not a upgrade if Farve comes back

You are completely missing the point. These teams would try to sign Jason Campbell if he was available.

Also, Buffalo maybe liked Edwards a little, but they'd upgrade no question. Edwards, Thigpen, Jackson etc. are like John Beck last year... oh yeah, the Dolphins love John Beck, he's their starter... Where's he now?

JaMarcus Russell is a huge NFL bust, Garcia, Delomme and Farve are all old and lacking a reliable backup.

Between the two of us we named 13 teams that would sign Campbell on the open market and at least 6-7 who would start him right away.

(Still lol that Buff and KC love Edwards and Thigpen )

LOL That You think JC is an upgrade

Skinsfan55 wrote:Campbell is an accurate passer... and who's also going into his first consecutive season in the same system.

Neither of those statements is true.

He has a strong arm, but is rarely accurate, particularly with his long ball, and he has no touch on his short passes. And before this year, he spent consecutive seasons in the Al Saunders version of Joe Gibbs' system, and the year before that it was the unadulterated Gibbs system.

DEHog wrote:LOL That You think JC is an upgrade

What's the best way for me to respond to that: "I know you are but what am I?" or "I'm rubber, you're glue..."?

Trent Edwards- 65.5% CMP, 2699 YDS, 11 TD, 10 INT, 85.4 QB rating.

That's with more talent around him on offense. Also, Scouts Inc. rates him a 63 for Average Starter.

Jason Campbell- 62.3% CMP, 3245 YDS, 13 TD, 6 INT, 84.3 QB rating.

That's with a lot less offensive talent with a line that broke down as the season went on. Scouts Inc. gives him a 74 rating for Good Starter.

Let's just throw Thigpen in the mix. (Who was like KC's 4th string QB this season.)

Tyler Thigpen- 54.8% CMP, 2608 YDS, 18 TD, 12 INT, 76 QB rating. Unrated by Scouts Inc.

The bottom line is, we could offer Jason Campbell straight up for either one of those two and the Bills and Chiefs would take it in a second and laugh at our stupidity.

Skinsfan55 wrote:

DEHog wrote:LOL That You think JC is an upgrade

What's the best way for me to respond to that: "I know you are but what am I?" or "I'm rubber, you're glue..."?

Trent Edwards- 65.5% CMP, 2699 YDS, 11 TD, 10 INT, 85.4 QB rating.

That's with more talent around him on offense. Also, Scouts Inc. rates him a 63 for Average Starter.

Jason Campbell- 62.3% CMP, 3245 YDS, 13 TD, 6 INT, 84.3 QB rating.

That's with a lot less offensive talent with a line that broke down as the season went on. Scouts Inc. gives him a 74 rating for Good Starter.

Let's just throw Thigpen in the mix. (Who was like KC's 4th string QB this season.)

Tyler Thigpen- 54.8% CMP, 2608 YDS, 18 TD, 12 INT, 76 QB rating. Unrated by Scouts Inc.

The bottom line is, we could offer Jason Campbell straight up for either one of those two and the Bills and Chiefs would take it in a second and laugh at our stupidity.

I beleive if there was a market for Jason the Skins would jump on it...this being the last year of his contract.
I also don't think either would trade for Campell. You put Jason's stats next to theirs like he head and shoulders above them??? I still find it funny that you think he's an upgrade??

First of all, there IS a market for QB's. Campbell would be at the top of a lot of teams lists but WE won't trade him.

Ceratto has made the front office's intentions pretty clear. The Redskins are waiting Campbell out. If he makes the necessary adjustments and has a season worthy of a big contract he'll get one. If he struggles we'll keep our options open.

Even though I have confidence Campbell will develop into a solid NFL quarterback the sensible thing to do is give him a contract when he earns it. If we extend him now we'd pay a big price on a gamble, if we wait we'll pay him what he deserves.

Trading him would make no sense for the Redskins at this time because our only QB's are Collins (old, strange system for him) and Brennan (coming off offseason surgery, inexperienced, may not have the physical tools needed)