The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Where were all of these high standards during 2013 and 2014?

Jacoah wrote:Cousins has certainly improved where turnovers are concerned. But I'm not sure I'm sold on him yet. When he starts winning road games for us, then I think I lean in favor of signing him and making him our starting QB for the long run. All that said, I just want him to win the final five games to win the division and get to the playoffs. I'll worry about 2016 when 2016 gets here.

I didn't realize that Kirk was the only one who travels to away games...

StorminMormon86 wrote:Where were all of these high standards during 2013 and 2014?

These left handed french compliments some of you begrudge Cousins are pathetic, if you can't manup and give the man the respect he has earned then you keep it to yourself. This is the time when we give all the support to the team that we can possibly give, they need our help and I am doing my bit. Do the right thing.
Go Skins!

oj wrote:These left handed french compliments some of you begrudge Cousins are pathetic, if you can't manup and give the man the respect he has earned then you keep it to yourself. This is the time when we give all the support to the team that we can possibly give, they need our help and I am doing my bit. Do the right thing.
Go Skins!

Nice. I like the sentiment!

SkinsJock wrote:I like Kirk Cousins but I'm not going to go gaga over him like some here - he's good, he's not great ...

The point isn't about going gaga over Kirk. I don't think he's done anything to be gaga over necessarily.

The point is to judge him objectively and decide if he is a guy who can be the QB for a while at least. I think by any measure he's proven he can be a capable starter for this team while they're rebuilding. Maybe we've seen him as good as he can be. Or maybe he'll improve with more experience and some better players around him.

I don't get this "he's good not great" crap. I assume we're all supposed to believe the "great" QB is sitting on the bench in his sweatpants, and we're all missing out on the greatness.

PulpExposure wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:Kirk Cousins is a good NFL QB but he cannot carry Williams or Rypien's jock straps - there's no comparison, they are starting NFL QBs that won NFL Super Bowls

Not sure how well you know your history.....

Doug Williams:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WillDo01.htm

Mark Rypien:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RypiMa00.htm

It pains me to post this as Rypien is one of my all time favorite skins and is a really good person.

Rypien was a starter in 4 of his 11 NFL seasons. Williams was a starter in 3 of his 9 NFL seasons. I wouldn't exactly call either of them "starting NFL QBs".....

Now if you meant to say that Cousins wasn't better than 1991 Rypien and 3-game-playoff-early-1988 Williams, then I'd fully agree (just like I'd agree 2012 RGIII is better than 2015 Cousins) --- but I highly doubt that is what you are saying. From a statistical perspective, Cousins is better than Williams, without question. Rypien is closer, but Cousins still edges him out. Cousins is on pace for 4,000 passing yards, 24 TDs, 14 INTs, 26 sacks, 60+ QBR --- with FAR (to the point of not even comparing position by position) less around him. Cousins' 2015 numbers are better than any of Rypien's seasons other than 1991. So saying there is no comparison is ridiculous -- and that is being nice .

I suggest you open your eyes. Based on your history of inaccuracies, I don't expect you to "eat crow", but at least try not to sound crazy.

So just to be transparent here, it's not fair to compare passing stats from even 1991 to nowadays. The rules changes and the game changes so favor passing offenses now it's almost a different game.

I agree. You also have to compare the players around them, both on offense and defense. My main point was that you based on production, you can compare Cousins to Rypien/Williams, even with the changes and different personnell --- considering the fact Rypien/Williams were never considered top tier QBs. To say otherwise is crazy.

The other main point was that Rypien/Williams should not be considered "starting NFL QBs" since both Rypien/Williams only "started" for roughly 1/3rd of their respective NFL careers.......

SkinsJock wrote:^^ agreed - not that it makes a difference when you're a blind follower ...

Kirk Cousins is doing his job well - I'm just not ready to jump on the "he's a really good QB" bandwagon just yet

Hey Kirk! ... just sign the damn contract already

Not sure what world you live on, but I have never heard anyone other than oldschool say Cousins is a franchise QB. I guess to you "blind follower" means someone that thinks Cousins is mediocre.

No one can deny Cousins has had some very good games over the past month. His past 3 game QBR of 68 is very good --- considering that would place him at 5th in the NFL for that period. What we have learned is that he is getting better at not throwing INTs and gettting more consistent. My main issue with Cousins has been his consistency. IMHO, these next 5 games will tell us a good deal about him --- in fact, I think it will tell me everything I need to know going forward.

oj wrote:These left handed french compliments some of you begrudge Cousins are pathetic, if you can't manup and give the man the respect he has earned then you keep it to yourself. This is the time when we give all the support to the team that we can possibly give, they need our help and I am doing my bit. Do the right thing.
Go Skins!

People that are consistently wrong tend to not like to admit when they are, in fact, wrong (at least more so than the people that are inconsistently wrong).

In this case, we have people slowly softening their positions to the point, that by next year (if Cousins continues playing the way he is currently), the "haters" will be saying that he is "on the verge of being very good, but not great" or even "solid, but unproven" or "he needs to take the team to the next level" or something similiar. They go from "kirk grossman" to "captain pick" to "back up QB" to "good but not great". It's an evolution of terminology so they can tell themselves they weren't wrong...... again.

As in the movie gladiator:
Quintos: "People should know when they are conquered" (or in this case, just wrong)
Maximus: "Would you, Quintos. Would I"

People don't like to be wrong when it is a competition of who was more correct. In this case, the haters don't want to eat crow and will tell themselves whatever they will believe to make sure of it.

Being subjective in all of this is an achilles heal. The haters are ALL RGIII fans. It didn't matter who the QB was, as long as it wasn't RGIII, they would not like them. That is the root of the Cousins "hate" and why they won't admit they were jaded.

markshark84 wrote:His past 3 game QBR of 68 is very good --- considering that would place him at 5th in the NFL for that period.

Just curious, where do you get stats like that? Is there a website that you can enter a timeframe (last 3 games) and compare QBR averages over that period, or are you doing the math yourself?

Deadskins wrote:

markshark84 wrote:His past 3 game QBR of 68 is very good --- considering that would place him at 5th in the NFL for that period.

Just curious, where do you get stats like that? Is there a website that you can enter a timeframe (last 3 games) and compare QBR averages over that period, or are you doing the math yourself?

Man I wish there were sites that did this stuff for me. I am fortunate that I have 3 monitors (and laptop) and can slide and swing pages to make it easier and faster. I also can do math pretty quickly in my head. I just took the qualified QBs (not including any QB that didn't play all 3 of the past games -- Hoyer, Osweiler) and averaged their QBRs over that span. I believe only Bridgewater, Newton, Palmer, and Smith (in no order) were in front of him.

Some of these can take some time, but adding these up took me about 5 mins, no more. One of the reasons I did 3 games was that I could do the averages in my head; had it been the past 5 games, it would have taken significantly longer.

I think you totally blew DeadSkins away with your skills of addition and division. BOOM.

QBR is a garbage statistic. Here's a pretty good reminder: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdo ... nfl-wp9534

markshark84 wrote:

oj wrote:These left handed french compliments some of you begrudge Cousins are pathetic, if you can't manup and give the man the respect he has earned then you keep it to yourself. This is the time when we give all the support to the team that we can possibly give, they need our help and I am doing my bit. Do the right thing.
Go Skins!

People that are consistently wrong tend to not like to admit when they are, in fact, wrong (at least more so than the people that are inconsistently wrong).

In this case, we have people slowly softening their positions to the point, that by next year (if Cousins continues playing the way he is currently), the "haters" will be saying that he is "on the verge of being very good, but not great" or even "solid, but unproven" or "he needs to take the team to the next level" or something similiar. They go from "kirk grossman" to "captain pick" to "back up QB" to "good but not great". It's an evolution of terminology so they can tell themselves they weren't wrong...... again.

As in the movie gladiator:
Quintos: "People should know when they are conquered" (or in this case, just wrong)
Maximus: "Would you, Quintos. Would I"

People don't like to be wrong when it is a competition of who was more correct. In this case, the haters don't want to eat crow and will tell themselves whatever they will believe to make sure of it.

Being subjective in all of this is an achilles heal. The haters are ALL RGIII fans. It didn't matter who the QB was, as long as it wasn't RGIII, they would not like them. That is the root of the Cousins "hate" and why they won't admit they were jaded.

Kirk could pass for 300+ and 3 TD in a SB win and all they'd be talking about is the pick he threw.

DEHog wrote:Kirk could pass for 300+ and 3 TD in a SB win and all they'd be talking about is the pick he threw.

But that pick was the result of him noodle-arming a pass to a WR running an out to his left.

markshark84 wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

markshark84 wrote:His past 3 game QBR of 68 is very good --- considering that would place him at 5th in the NFL for that period.

Just curious, where do you get stats like that? Is there a website that you can enter a timeframe (last 3 games) and compare QBR averages over that period, or are you doing the math yourself?

Man I wish there were sites that did this stuff for me. I am fortunate that I have 3 monitors (and laptop) and can slide and swing pages to make it easier and faster. I also can do math pretty quickly in my head. I just took the qualified QBs (not including any QB that didn't play all 3 of the past games -- Hoyer, Osweiler) and averaged their QBRs over that span. I believe only Bridgewater, Newton, Palmer, and Smith (in no order) were in front of him.

Some of these can take some time, but adding these up took me about 5 mins, no more. One of the reasons I did 3 games was that I could do the averages in my head; had it been the past 5 games, it would have taken significantly longer.

Where are you getting the QBR numbers for the last three weeks?

Deadskins wrote:Where are you getting the QBR numbers for the last three weeks?

ESPN

riggofan wrote:I think you totally blew DeadSkins away with your skills of addition and division. BOOM.

Highly doubt it.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:QBR is a garbage statistic. Here's a pretty good reminder: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdo ... nfl-wp9534

I disagree. I have been quite impressed by the QBR and how I personally felt a QB has performed. There are certain manipulations and outliers that make the overall stat inconsistent (like any stat), but all in all, it works. After all, one of the reasons ESPN created the QBR was because of how inaccurate "passer rating" was to evaluate QB play --- and I don't think anyone can question that QBR provides better analysis.

That being said, it is not perfect. Cousins' 23.2 vs. the Pats is a good example. Had there not been 8 drops, his rating would have been far higher. It wasn't accurate to him on that particular game. But if you take his 11 games, that is the only one that I can say wasn't at least fair. And as the article states, situations were the QB doesn't throw much but is effective while relying on the run game, his QBR will be uncharacteristically high. The stat also takes into consideration a QB's ability to run more than I would like it to. As far as the minimums to qualify, that is why I don't take into consideration the "nonqualified" players. Regardless, you have to take the good with the bad and there is no other statistic that has done a better job at evaluating the overall play of a QB than QBR --- at least one that I have come across.

I also want to say that some of the criticisms in that article (published in 2011) have been addressed by the stat, in particular, situations where a QB has a 4Q CB and then the DEF gives up the game.

There are also ways to manipulate the stat itself. I like to take the pass EPA on its own to determine how well as QB is playing. That discounts the run aspect of a QB. ACT plays also provides a decent showing of the contribution by the QB.

At the end of the day, the stat isn't "garbage". Far from it. It's not perfect, but it's the best I've seen.

(d)oink wrote:

StorminMormon86 wrote:Where were all of these high standards during 2013 and 2014?

Legitimate question.

I remember more preaching of patience, and game experience helping a certain QB learn to grow. Now, we have to win the East and win a playoff game before we can accept the current QB...as the QB for 2016.

riggofan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:I like Kirk Cousins but I'm not going to go gaga over him like some here - he's good, he's not great ...

The point isn't about going gaga over Kirk. I don't think he's done anything to be gaga over necessarily.

The point is to judge him objectively and decide if he is a guy who can be the QB for a while at least. I think by any measure he's proven he can be a capable starter for this team while they're rebuilding. Maybe we've seen him as good as he can be. Or maybe he'll improve with more experience and some better players around him.

I don't get this "he's good not great" crap. I assume we're all supposed to believe the "great" QB is sitting on the bench in his sweatpants, and we're all missing out on the greatness.

that's close - I'm looking at this very objectively unlike some here

I hope that Cousins is here for a while and while he's already proved that he's the best option for QB here he may even improve more and become an even better QB/leader and also get rid of the turnover issue he has - I'm all in on Cousins as the QB here for a while only because he's the best option at this time and not because I'm as crazy about him as some here are - that's the only thing that gets me about a couple of Cousins fans - they can't stand the fact that we still have Griffin here and that guy is not even playing and IMO he will most likely be gone soon - while they continue to go overboard about how terrible Griffin is, was and always will be, I'll temper my enthusiasm about Cousins and poke fun at them in the process - after all, that's what this site is all about

I don't get the "hate" stuff - there may be 1 poster here that hates Cousins but there are many Griffin haters here to overwhelm him with BS


btw - Cousins is not a great QB ... that's not crap, that's a fact

markshark84 wrote:[ What we have learned is that he is getting better at not throwing INTs and gettting more consistent. My main issue with Cousins has been his consistency. IMHO, these next 5 games will tell us a good deal about him --- in fact, I think it will tell me everything I need to know going forward.

This summarizes my thoughts as well. He's been doing quite well so far, but let's see it continue.

SkinsJock wrote:btw - Cousins is not a great QB ... that's not crap, that's a fact

Perhaps, but seeing as how we haven't had a great quarterback in forty plus years it comes across as a trolling statement.

When we have the option of a great quarterback or Kirk Cousins then your incessant repetition of that statement will hold some weight.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:btw - Cousins is not a great QB ... that's not crap, that's a fact

Perhaps, but seeing as how we haven't had a great quarterback in forty plus years it comes across as a trolling statement.

When we have the option of a great quarterback or Kirk Cousins then your incessant repetition of that statement will hold some weight.

It's all good... even when we had a truly great quarterback, there was still THIS...


I think it's just "life as a Redskins fan..."

Countertrey wrote:It's all good... even when we had a truly great quarterback, there was still THIS...


I think it's just "life as a Redskins fan..."

Only one of those two was a franchise quarterback.