The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

DEHog wrote:In fairness, wasn't one of the (if not the main) reasons Gruden was given this job was to develop RG??

I don't know. Shanahan knew RGIII couldn't be developed into a quarterback. Why would Gruden think he's smarter than Shanahan?

I've never heard Shanahan say that.

Shanahan said on the Dan Patrick Show that taking the read-option out of Washington’s offense and turning Griffin into a pocket passer required a lot more time and hard work than Snyder and Griffin understood.

“Once you change schemes, and you want to go to a scheme that really you haven’t done throughout your career, it does take some time. And I don’t think Dan or Robert realized the transition that it was going to take for him to take that step,” Shanahan said.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... et-passer/

Its weird but in some ways the worst thing that could have happened to Robert was that crazy offense in 2012 and having that immediate success.

And yet another thread has devolved into rg3blahblahblah.

SkinsJock wrote:OK - let's see how it goes then ... this is kind of fun ...

I don't think the kid can carry an offense - if they're making him throw over 40 times behind a line that cannot pass block very well and with a QB that does not handle pressure very well ... good luck to him

Cousins stays as the QB unless he turns the ball over a lot and if he has to throw a lot behind this line, that will happen and that will not be good

not really a big deal to me ... I'll watch and learn

Hopefully this wasn't directed at my post.

Because if so.....

Whether or not you or anyone thinks Cousins can carry an offense is irrelevant. Whether our OL can block is irrelevant. Ultimately, we have to play the strengths and weaknesses of the opposing DEF. This isn't high school. You can't go out there and say you are going to run the ball 40 times, face a constant 10 man front and expect to win.

From here on out, DEFs will try to force Cousins to turn the ball over. They will try to stop our rushing attack. Expect heavy pressure. Whether or not Cousins will be able to handle that pressure has yet to be fully determined. We will learn.

But to sit and say we need to give him X amount of games is ludicrious. Just as I said with RGIII in 2013, 2014, and this preseason ----- it is about progression. Is Cousins progressing? And that doesn't mean the normal stats fans rely on like pass attempts, INTs, and TDs. It must be broken down far far far -- to a ridiculous degree -- more than that. Progression need to be determined based on every single calculable determinable: offensive sets, snap count, drop steps, DEF line fronts -- evens/odds, downs, yards to go, WR/TE/RB count, second in pocket, read time, progression time, man-man vs. zone, 10 to 20 to 30 yard, route, option, audible tendency, line read response, etc etc etc.

Soooo, if Gruden is doing his job right, it won't be as simple as if Cousins turns the ball over he is out.

DEHog wrote:

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

DEHog wrote:In fairness, wasn't one of the (if not the main) reasons Gruden was given this job was to develop RG??

I don't know. Shanahan knew RGIII couldn't be developed into a quarterback. Why would Gruden think he's smarter than Shanahan?

Doesn't matter he accepted the position knowing full well that job 1 was Griffin. That's why I give Snyder a pass on this one. Don't tell me you can develop him than 6 months into it say I'm done with him. He should be held accountable IMO.

I'm sure the Dan Snyder mantra was all RGIII all the time. What I'm not sure of is if the Scot McCloughan mantra was ever all RGIII all the time. We know Scot liked Kirk Cousins even when he was with Seattle. Maybe in one room Gruden told Dan Snyder what he wanted to hear in order to land a head coaching opportunity (they don't exactly grow on trees) and in another room he had a discussion with Scot McCloughan who told him if he couldn't work with RGIII he would have an opportunity to work with Kirk Cousins. I can't fathom Gruden or any other head coach, as Parcells put it, (paraphrasing) agreeing to cooking the meal without buying the groceries.

Having said that, no one gets a free pass. If they're wiling to cut a kicker for light and transient causes then they damn sure better be holding coaches accountable. My problem is not in that. It's in the changing coaches like Imelda Marcos changes shoes. Look at any team that has had any level of sustained success and each has a few things in common: Chief among those is consistency in the coaching and schemes for several seasons. If we keep looking for instant gratification we're never going to find it.

DEHog wrote:Doesn't matter he accepted the position knowing full well that job 1 was Griffin. That's why I give Snyder a pass on this one. Don't tell me you can develop him than 6 months into it say I'm done with him. He should be held accountable IMO.

He actually accepted the job BEFORE RGIII was drafted, but the job did evolve into that. He wasn't directly hired under that speculation. No way.

Regardless, Shanahan drafted the guy and developed an offense that worked for him. Danny boy then came in after RGIII got hurt and said the successful offense was "unacceptable". When Shanahan tried to develop him into a pocket QB it was VERY CLEAR that wouldn't work out.

I am not a fan of Shanahan (although I am of his son), but I don't see how you think Danny boy gets a pass on putting insane thoughts into RGIII's head and then forcing Shanahan to execute them. Danny boy was actually the DIRECT problem.

riggofan wrote:I've never heard Shanahan say that. Its weird but in some ways the worst thing that could have happened to Robert was that crazy offense in 2012 and having that immediate success.

Shanahan never wanted to draft RGIII in the first place. He had to create a simplified collegiate scheme specifically for RGIII. He couldn't run his offense because RGIII couldn't make all the throws, read defenses, or even go through basic receiver progressions. Nothing has changed in three seasons. If anything, RGIII has regressed from the few things he did well. Dan Snyder is always looking for instant gratification. He has no patience and that is why we are made to suffer. The phrase "I don't think Dan realized ..." could be used for pretty much anything and everything that remotely relates to the football aspect of football. He's the worst kind of couch GM and Monday Morning Quarterback, one with enough money to own the damn team.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

riggofan wrote:I've never heard Shanahan say that. Its weird but in some ways the worst thing that could have happened to Robert was that crazy offense in 2012 and having that immediate success.

Shanahan never wanted to draft RGIII in the first place. He had to create a simplified collegiate scheme specifically for RGIII. He couldn't run his offense because RGIII couldn't make all the throws, read defenses, or even go through basic receiver progressions. Nothing has changed in three seasons. If anything, RGIII has regressed from the few things he did well. Dan Snyder is always looking for instant gratification. He has no patience and that is why we are made to suffer. The phrase "I don't think Dan realized ..." could be used for pretty much anything and everything that remotely relates to the football aspect of football. He's the worst kind of couch GM and Monday Morning Quarterback, one with enough money to own the damn team.

I agree for the most part, but I don't remotely believe that Griffin was forced on Shanahan. Most of what Shanahan has said in recent months was that he was on board with drafting RGIII, but he warned Snyder that it was going to take time to develop him. He didn't believe Griffin was as NFL ready as Luck or whatever.

Yeah pretty much.

Chris Russell ‏@Russellmania621 12m12 minutes ago

My man @chaddukes just said it right on @1067thefandc. Many #Redskins fans simply can not move on from 2012 & it is poisoning their mind.

markshark84 wrote:

DEHog wrote:Doesn't matter he accepted the position knowing full well that job 1 was Griffin. That's why I give Snyder a pass on this one. Don't tell me you can develop him than 6 months into it say I'm done with him. He should be held accountable IMO.

He actually accepted the job BEFORE RGIII was drafted, but the job did evolve into that. He wasn't directly hired under that speculation. No way.

Regardless, Shanahan drafted the guy and developed an offense that worked for him. Danny boy then came in after RGIII got hurt and said the successful offense was "unacceptable". When Shanahan tried to develop him into a pocket QB it was VERY CLEAR that wouldn't work out.

I am not a fan of Shanahan (although I am of his son), but I don't see how you think Danny boy gets a pass on putting insane thoughts into RGIII's head and then forcing Shanahan to execute them. Danny boy was actually the DIRECT problem.

He was referring to Gruden

oneman56 wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

DEHog wrote:Doesn't matter he accepted the position knowing full well that job 1 was Griffin. That's why I give Snyder a pass on this one. Don't tell me you can develop him than 6 months into it say I'm done with him. He should be held accountable IMO.

He actually accepted the job BEFORE RGIII was drafted, but the job did evolve into that. He wasn't directly hired under that speculation. No way.

Regardless, Shanahan drafted the guy and developed an offense that worked for him. Danny boy then came in after RGIII got hurt and said the successful offense was "unacceptable". When Shanahan tried to develop him into a pocket QB it was VERY CLEAR that wouldn't work out.

I am not a fan of Shanahan (although I am of his son), but I don't see how you think Danny boy gets a pass on putting insane thoughts into RGIII's head and then forcing Shanahan to execute them. Danny boy was actually the DIRECT problem.

He was referring to Gruden

Whoooops.....

I was actually surprised DEHog would make such a comment...... so that makes sense.

Regardless I wouldn't give Snyder a pass because he was the idiot that thought RGIII was a viable NFL QB....

Whoooops.....

I was actually surprised DEHog would make such a comment...... so that makes sense.

Regardless I wouldn't give Snyder a pass because he was the idiot that thought RGIII was a viable NFL QB....

LOL it's all good. Yes I was referring to Gruden, and isn't Gruden just as much of an idiot for thinking the same thing...OK maybe not as much becuase he did have 20 million reasons to think that

My point is still valid, if you as a coach sell youself has a QB Whisperer, (and you know he did). You can't come back in 6 months and few games and tell me "I'm done".

I'll try again - I do not think that Cousins has a time frame for proving he can do the job - If Cousins clearly shows he cannot stop turning the ball over or if he shows he cannot properly run the offense he should be replaced - that could be a few games or a season

as far as having Cousins throw the ball a lot - I just don't think he's comfortable doing that - go ahead and keep trying it - as soon as these guys realize that Cousins cannot be successful doing that they should start looking for ways to game plan where he doesn't have to throw the ball over 40 times a game - to say we're not going to win if we don't keep throwing the ball because we're behind even if it means that Cousins is going to turn the ball over more is just stupid

we're not that good people - we need to try and game plan better for Cousins - he is better off with a solid run game & timing passes

we're not winning a lot of games this season, no matter who is QB but this kid cannot be throwing the ball a whole lot - bad things happen

DEHog wrote:

Whoooops.....

I was actually surprised DEHog would make such a comment...... so that makes sense.

Regardless I wouldn't give Snyder a pass because he was the idiot that thought RGIII was a viable NFL QB....

LOL it's all good. Yes I was referring to Gruden, and isn't Gruden just as much of an idiot for thinking the same thing...OK maybe not as much becuase he did have 20 million reasons to think that

My point is still valid, if you as a coach sell youself has a QB Whisperer, (and you know he did). You can't come back in 6 months and few games and tell me "I'm done".

No, I 100% understand what you are saying. He is suppossedly a QB guy and is hired under the assumption that he'll ressurect RGIII --- then says it can't be done. Now, for Gruden being just as much an idiot as Danny --- I find it hard to believe anyone on the planet is as dumb as Danny when it comes to football.

That being said $20M is hard to turn down. And putting myself in Gruden's shoes, if he taught RGIII and nothing was clicking, I am sure it would become frustrating. And looking at the results, there hasn't been much progression by RGIII in his 2 years (2013 & 2014) under Shanahan and the now 1+ under Gruden. As one of my mentors once told me "your development is over 90% up to you; coaching/training can't get you to the top".

This all being said, you have to put into perspective the fact I literally hate Dan Snyder. I think he is the worst owner in sports. I have never heard one single good think about the guy first hand (and dozen of horrible things). His football philosophy is the exact opposite of mine.

markshark84 wrote:

DEHog wrote:

Whoooops.....

I was actually surprised DEHog would make such a comment...... so that makes sense.

Regardless I wouldn't give Snyder a pass because he was the idiot that thought RGIII was a viable NFL QB....

LOL it's all good. Yes I was referring to Gruden, and isn't Gruden just as much of an idiot for thinking the same thing...OK maybe not as much becuase he did have 20 million reasons to think that

My point is still valid, if you as a coach sell youself has a QB Whisperer, (and you know he did). You can't come back in 6 months and few games and tell me "I'm done".

No, I 100% understand what you are saying. He is suppossedly a QB guy and is hired under the assumption that he'll ressurect RGIII --- then says it can't be done. Now, for Gruden being just as much an idiot as Danny --- I find it hard to believe anyone on the planet is as dumb as Danny when it comes to football.

That being said $20M is hard to turn down. And putting myself in Gruden's shoes, if he taught RGIII and nothing was clicking, I am sure it would become frustrating. And looking at the results, there hasn't been much progression by RGIII in his 2 years (2013 & 2014) under Shanahan and the now 1+ under Gruden. As one of my mentors once told me "your development is over 90% up to you; coaching/training can't get you to the top".

This all being said, you have to put into perspective the fact I literally hate Dan Snyder. I think he is the worst owner in sports. I have never heard one single good think about the guy first hand (and dozen of horrible things). His football philosophy is the exact opposite of mine.

Well said...far be it for me to defend Snyder and your right, if Gruden gave up that quickly on RG after saying he could do it (for 20 mil) what does that says about RG

In three days we have five pages on this topic.. that's definitely not good.

This thread is about improvements. So I am going to touch on that subject.

So far we have seen improvement. Mainly in the running game and stopping the run. Most of that credit I would like to credit Scotty Mac in doing so. Which I think is fair.

We have an improvement in overall talent roster wise. Our Oline looks solid but needs a lil more depth.

I do think we should put less emphasis on the QB position and less pressure on Kirk for him to succeed. Put the pressure on Alf and Matt Jones ease Kirk into it.

Put the pressure on Knighton and the defense. They are our leaders. Kerrigan etc..

We can win. I hope Gruden just keeps it simple and has our team executing rather then getting too complicated.

HEROHAMO wrote:This thread is about improvements. So I am going to touch on that subject.

So far we have seen improvement. Mainly in the running game and stopping the run. Most of that credit I would like to credit Scotty Mac in doing so. Which I think is fair.

We have an improvement in overall talent roster wise. Our Oline looks solid but needs a lil more depth.

I do think we should put less emphasis on the QB position and less pressure on Kirk for him to succeed. Put the pressure on Alf and Matt Jones ease Kirk into it.

Put the pressure on Knighton and the defense. They are our leaders. Kerrigan etc..

We can win. I hope Gruden just keeps it simple and has our team executing rather then getting too complicated.

I also think we're allowed to use injuries as an excuse when we have ten starters on injured reserve three game into the season. That's over 20% of the roster.

SkinsJock wrote:as far as having Cousins throw the ball a lot - I just don't think he's comfortable doing that - go ahead and keep trying it - as soon as these guys realize that Cousins cannot be successful doing that they should start looking for ways to game plan where he doesn't have to throw the ball over 40 times a game - to say we're not going to win if we don't keep throwing the ball because we're behind even if it means that Cousins is going to turn the ball over more is just stupid

We could be 5-2 going into the bye - and if we'd just played a little bit better we could have easily been 7-0 - oh well

Area of improvement:

Who saw a kick off go 4 rows deep into the seats BEHIND the end zone??? I think it was the one that started the second half...

Countertrey wrote:Area of improvement:

Who saw a kick off go 4 rows deep into the seats BEHIND the end zone??? I think it was the one that started the second half...

I also saw the difference between a field goal kicker you can trust and one you can't.

Countertrey wrote:Area of improvement:

Who saw a kick off go 4 rows deep into the seats BEHIND the end zone??? I think it was the one that started the second half...

Man, is that guy unbelievable on kickoffs? Or is he just meeting the standards of most NFL kickers?

Either way, I think every kickoff he's taken for the team has gone for a touch back. Well done, kid.

riggofan wrote:

Countertrey wrote:Area of improvement:

Who saw a kick off go 4 rows deep into the seats BEHIND the end zone??? I think it was the one that started the second half...

Man, is that guy unbelievable on kickoffs? Or is he just meeting the standards of most NFL kickers?

Either way, I think every kickoff he's taken for the team has gone for a touch back. Well done, kid.

Not to mention he's hit every FG too. Philly's kicker cost them the game.

this kid can be a difference maker - we might try a longer field goal that we never would have tried with Forbath - Kai was very good for us but he was not given too many shots that this kid looks like he could make - plus the kickoffs are amazing

SkinsJock wrote:this kid can be a difference maker - we might try a longer field goal that we never would have tried with Forbath - Kai was very good for us but he was not given too many shots that this kid looks like he could make - plus the kickoffs are amazing

Ironic that he holds the franchise record for longest FG made.