Define "success" for the Redskins.

[riggofan]

My cautious optimism every off season has nothing to do with Dan Snyder, but with a little hope that some of these players and coaches will rise above Snyder.

And that's why it's inconsistent... You'll randomly get lucky and rise above his *sh$t*, just to be sunk underneath of it for another 8 years. It'll never be more than this.

Sure, I don't disagree with that at all. The past twenty years has proven you 100% correct. Its actually probably worse for the franchise that occasionally a Joe Gibbs comes in here and takes the team to the playoffs one season. Or Kyle Shanahan and RGIII come up with some crazy offense that gets us to the playoffs. Those things happen and Snyder thinks he's on to something or whatever.

I'm still a fan though. I still hope for a good season every year and look forward to the start of every season.

[riggofan]

Yes, but (arguably) even the best QBs need supporting players. It is obvious that in order to be successful in the NFL, a team needs a franchise QB..... However, there are some great franchise QBs that aren't in the playoffs --- Brees, Ryan, Rivers, Manning, Kaepernich --- because they lack such support. While having a franchise QB makes things a ton easier, it isn't enough to be a perennial power. In fact, I would say that having a franchise QB is 50% of the build.

After reading my post, I think I am basically saying the same thing you are, just differently. I am just a firm believer that you build from the draft. Never trade away and only trade for picks. Only sign UFAs. The most valuable member of the franchise is the GM. That is why I am, and have been for so long, so frustrated with the franchise. Danny boy is too stupid and desperate to understand this. Talent always wins out --- and the owners with the most talented GMs generally are the ones wearing the rings.

Yeah I agreed with your original post. I was just noting that its not just the quality drafting that puts those teams in the playoffs. The franchise QB is so key.

Its one of the things that worries me about the team now. We need to rebuild all of the non-glamorous parts of the team. Spend high picks on players who aren't going to sell jerseys. But at some point, we still need the QB you know? Feels like we could spend the next three years just building an 8-8 team.

[SkinsJock]

next season we'll see all the same 'positives' being espoused by the media, coaches & players - the result cautious optimism is here
then the season begins and we see the reality of what happens when guys that don't have a clue about the NFL, are running things

So, knowing with certainty that this is what is going to happen, why in the world would you follow the team? That would pretty much make a person an imbecile.

So you call SJ a imbecile, but you are optimisic every off season that some of these players and coaches will rise above Snyder. How sad it that?

thanks DEHog - I don't read his posts ... fans like this, make out like they're better fans and refuse to see why we're in this mess

I used to be blind as well - now I see that Dan Snyder has never wanted someone else to get the credit for making this franchise successful

until that happens, some fans will build up hope each off season and then make out like it's the QB, or the defense ...

wake up people - the ONLY issue we have to resolve is to find a way for Snyder to not be involved

it'll be like magic - the offense will become good/great again; the defense will be awesome; the QB will be a future HOFer ...

[DEHog]

So you call SJ a imbecile, but you are optimism every off season that some of these players and coaches will rise above Snyder...How sad it that?

I'm not calling SJ an imbecile at all. And I'm not really sure what your point is exactly, but yeah it is sad I guess.

Sad that Skins fans are reduced to hoping that players and coaches rise above the inept owner...I'll add I totally get your point.

[riggofan]

So you call SJ a imbecile, but you are optimism every off season that some of these players and coaches will rise above Snyder...How sad it that?

I'm not calling SJ an imbecile at all. And I'm not really sure what your point is exactly, but yeah it is sad I guess.

Sad that Skins fans are reduced to hoping that players and coaches rise above the inept owner...I'll add I totally get your point.

hah. I hear you. Skins fans have to take whatever we can get at this point. The other day I saw a photo from this summer where I was hanging out with some friends in Boston watching the Skins/Pats preseason game. I realized sadly that game was THE HIGHLIGHT of the season for me! lol.

[riggofan]

thanks DEHog - I don't read his posts ... fans like this, make out like they're better fans and refuse to see why we're in this mess

I thought about adding SJ to my ignore list, but I'm afraid I wouldn't know what to do without a quarter hourly reminder that Dan Snyder sucks and we will never be good while Dan Snyder is busy continuing to being Dan Snyder.

[emoses14]

thanks DEHog - I don't read his posts ... fans like this, make out like they're better fans and refuse to see why we're in this mess

I thought about adding SJ to my ignore list, but I'm afraid I wouldn't know what to do without a quarter hourly reminder that Dan Snyder sucks and we will never be good while Dan Snyder is busy continuing to being Dan Snyder.

Play nice.

[riggofan]

thanks DEHog - I don't read his posts ... fans like this, make out like they're better fans and refuse to see why we're in this mess

I thought about adding SJ to my ignore list, but I'm afraid I wouldn't know what to do without a quarter hourly reminder that Dan Snyder sucks and we will never be good while Dan Snyder is busy continuing to being Dan Snyder.

Play nice.

I'm just lashing out because my feelings are hurt.

[Irn-Bru]

Feels like we could spend the next three years just building an 8-8 team.

First thing's first though. Didn't we just have a thread where we were all saying we'd take an 8-8 team for a start? (Oh, right, that's this thread! )

[Irn-Bru]

Feels like we could spend the next three years just building an 8-8 team.

First thing's first though. Didn't we just have a thread where we were all saying we'd take an 8-8 team for a start? (Oh, right, that's this thread! )

I'll add that, if we have an 8-8 team without a decent quarterback — if that's in fact what happens — then it will only take a decent quarterback, not a franchise one, to get us into the playoffs most years.

[riggofan]

Feels like we could spend the next three years just building an 8-8 team.

First thing's first though. Didn't we just have a thread where we were all saying we'd take an 8-8 team for a start? (Oh, right, that's this thread! )

Heck yes. There would probably have to be some sort of parade through DC if we go 8-8.

[emoses14]

Success for the skins (for me) is actually a series of small successes that don't have to come in any particular order. Coherent drafting plan, decision made about who the team believes is their QB (I have my own personal thoughts, but I am a fan, not a member of the organization so it matters not what I think) showing that trust and moving forward, coherent organizational plan, no more 25 yard receptions without a defender within 9 yards, and most importantly (and hopefully just accomplished,

HIRE. A. G-D. GM!!!!)

If the reports are accurate, then the Redskins, god bless them, just succeeded on perhaps the most important of the iterative successes. Everything else can flow from this one, really.

[Deadskins]

there are some great franchise QBs that aren't in the playoffs --- Brees, Ryan, Rivers, Manning, Kaepernich --- because they lack such support.

Are you saying Sheli is a great franchise QB? If anything, I'd say his success has only been because of his supporting cast.

[SkinsJock]

there are some great franchise QBs that aren't in the playoffs --- Brees, Ryan, Rivers, Manning, Kaepernich --- because they lack such support.

Are you saying Sheli is a great franchise QB? If anything, I'd say his success has only been because of his supporting cast.

+1 - I admit I've never like this spoiled brat but I've learned to respect that he's done well ...

Sheli is a very good NFL QB but he's not a 'great' franchise QB - guy had some incredible players make some unbelievable plays and that SB win against an undefeated Pats team was both brilliant game planning defensively and an unbelievable catch by a WR than dominant QB play

btw - IMO Brees is a great QB and Rivers is almost a great franchise QB
Sheli, Kaepernick and Ryan have yet to achieve great franchise status

[riggofan]

Brees and Rivers are franchise QBs - Sheli, Kaepernick and Ryan are not there yet ...

Where do you come up with this stuff? Eli Manning has been the Giants QB for 10 years and won a super bowl with them. Matt Ryan has been the Falcons starting QB for seven years and took the team to the NFC championship game. Of course these guys are franchise QBs. This is pretty much the definition of "franchise QB".

Rivers has been a starting QB for ten years and been to one AFC Championship game. He's a franchise QB but Eli isn't???

[Deadskins]

Brees and Rivers are franchise QBs - Sheli, Kaepernick and Ryan are not there yet ...

Where do you come up with this stuff? Eli Manning has been the Giants QB for 10 years and won a super bowl with them. Matt Ryan has been the Falcons starting QB for seven years and took the team to the NFC championship game. Of course these guys are franchise QBs. This is pretty much the definition of "franchise QB".

Rivers has been a starting QB for ten years and been to one AFC Championship game. He's a franchise QB but Eli isn't???

Personally, I was more focused on the word "great" than the word "franchise." (I know you were responding to SJ, but he was responding to me) I would agree with you that all are franchise QBs (Kaepernick probably isn't there yet). I still don't think Sheli is, or ever will be, great, no matter how many SBs his team has won. Peyton is light years above Sheli in QB play, but only has one ring to show for it.

[riggofan]

Personally, I was more focused on the word "great" than the word "franchise." (I know you were responding to SJ, but he was responding to me) I would agree with you that all are franchise QBs (Kaepernick probably isn't there yet). I still don't think Sheli is, or ever will be, great, no matter how many SBs his team has won. Peyton is light years above Sheli in QB play, but only has one ring to show for it.

No doubt! I just can't believe somebody wrote that a guy who has started for ten years for the same team, won two super bowls, five years in the playoffs, only three seasons under .500, and is currently ranked #3 all time in consecutive starts isn't a franchise QB. hah.

[markshark84]

there are some great franchise QBs that aren't in the playoffs --- Brees, Ryan, Rivers, Manning, Kaepernich --- because they lack such support.

Are you saying Sheli is a great franchise QB? If anything, I'd say his success has only been because of his supporting cast.

First off, it is very easy to say "oh, well it really wasn't him; it was the supporting cast...." You have to judge someone on what they have done. You can't take something away from someone using data that is completely unquantifiable and 100% subjective. Sorry.

That being said, he is a 2 time super bowl MVP, 3 time pro bowler. He has very good stats to back it up. They've had 2 losing seasons since he became the full time starter (which haved been the past 2) in the 10 years he's been in the league.

You put him in a skins uni with that history and he'd be in our ring of fame, top 70 greatest players, no question --- so yes, I'd consider him a great, franchise QB. Doesn't mean his isn't a little brat, though.

Compare these 2 QBs:
QB 1:
Games: 167
Pass Yards: 25,206
Comp. %: 56.7
TDs: 160
INT: 138
Sack: 340
Game Winning Drives: 24
Super Bowl Wins: 1
SB MVP: 0
QB Rate: 77.4

QB2:
Games: 169
Pass Yards: 39,775
Comp. %: 59
TDs: 259
INT: 185
Sack: 280
Game Winning Drives: 31
Super Bowl Wins: 2
SB MVPs: 2
QB Rate: 82.4

I have generally considered "greatness" to be shown in the playoffs. Sure there are outliers like Peyton and Marino --- but those are not common. He has shown he is "great" by what he can do in pressure situations. He doesn't throw up numbers like his brother, but, at the end of the day, it's about the jewlery --- and he's got it.

Don't get your NYG hatred in the way of things. Eli may be a brat, but he has proven he can play.

In all honestly, I hesitated to put Kaep in there...... but he's been to 2 consecutive SBs, so you know he can get a team to the playoffs (which is honestly why I included him).

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

Kap hasn't been to two SBs... and he is pretty average on the scale of qb passing. Runs like a gazelle tho.
He was the beneficiary of a great D and solid run game like Wilson in Seattle. Neither are Luck or even Cam caliber of passer, both have a strong D to lean on. Even here if the qb only had to put up 17pts to win wed be more successful w any of the qbs on the roster.

Eli similarly was helped by a tough D and decent run game. Cant take anything away from those rings tho

[yupchagee]

My question, as usual is: Is a QB great because his team won a Super Bowl, or did the team win the Super Bowl because the QB is great?

[DarthMonk]

My question, as usual is: Is a QB great because his team won a Super Bowl, or did the team win the Super Bowl because the QB is great?

I remember a lot of Brady vs. Manning talk when he was a Colt and his defenders pointed to the defenses Brady had. Just recently I've heard Flacco vs. Brady (Flacco has outplayed him head-to-head in playoffs) and Brady defenders are pointing to the defenses Flacco had.

Kind of ironic.

[SkinsJock]

thankfully we'll never see crybaby Sheli in a B&G uniform ... that would definitely end my support for this franchise ...

then again, if we could get him to play a few downs behind any of the O lines we've had here the past 2 years, it would be worth it

[riggofan]

My question, as usual is: Is a QB great because his team won a Super Bowl, or did the team win the Super Bowl because the QB is great?

Possibly neither, right? Trent Dilfer wasn't a great QB after winning the Super Bowl, and the Ravens didn't win the Super Bowl because Dilfer was great.

Eli doesn't strike me as a "great" QB, but he's been a successful QB for the better part of ten years.

[markshark84]

Compare these 2 QBs:
QB 1:
Games: 167
Pass Yards: 25,206
Comp. %: 56.7
TDs: 160
INT: 138
Sack: 340
Game Winning Drives: 24
Super Bowl Wins: 1
SB MVP: 0
QB Rate: 77.4

QB2:
Games: 169
Pass Yards: 39,775
Comp. %: 59
TDs: 259
INT: 185
Sack: 280
Game Winning Drives: 31
Super Bowl Wins: 2
SB MVPs: 2
QB Rate: 82.4

Ok, as I'm sure you all knew, QB1 was Theismann, QB2 was Eli.

Here is another. Both of these QBs are in the HALL OF FAME:

QB3:
Games: 160
Pass Yards: 35,467
Comp. %: 60
TDs: 237
INT: 175
Sack: 323
Game Winning Drives: 29
Super Bowl Wins: 0
SB MVPs: 0
QB Rate: 84.4

QB4:
Games: 168
Pass Yards: 27,989
Comp. %: 52
TDs: 212
INT: 210
Sack: 307
Game Winning Drives: 27
Super Bowl Wins: 4
SB MVPs: 2
QB Rate: 70.9

I would put Eli's resume up against either of these two players --- and that's for the HOF.

And again, this doesn't mean he isn't a douche.

[DarthMonk]

Compare these 2 QBs:
QB 1:
Games: 167
Pass Yards: 25,206
Comp. %: 56.7
TDs: 160
INT: 138
Sack: 340
Game Winning Drives: 24
Super Bowl Wins: 1
SB MVP: 0
QB Rate: 77.4

QB2:
Games: 169
Pass Yards: 39,775
Comp. %: 59
TDs: 259
INT: 185
Sack: 280
Game Winning Drives: 31
Super Bowl Wins: 2
SB MVPs: 2
QB Rate: 82.4

Ok, as I'm sure you all knew, QB1 was Theismann, QB2 was Eli.

Here is another. Both of these QBs are in the HALL OF FAME:

QB3:
Games: 160
Pass Yards: 35,467
Comp. %: 60
TDs: 237
INT: 175
Sack: 323
Game Winning Drives: 29
Super Bowl Wins: 0
SB MVPs: 0
QB Rate: 84.4

QB4:
Games: 168
Pass Yards: 27,989
Comp. %: 52
TDs: 212
INT: 210
Sack: 307
Game Winning Drives: 27
Super Bowl Wins: 4
SB MVPs: 2
QB Rate: 70.9

I would put Eli's resume up against either of these two players --- and that's for the HOF.

And again, this doesn't mean he isn't a douche.

If it were up to me, QB3 would not be in the hall ... well, not before DArth Monk anyway.