The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

riggofan wrote:I'm pretty much done with grampi. Going to my ignore list with oldschool.

Oh, I'm so hurt!

The 1985 Bears, one of the greatest defenses of all time, lost to Miami 38 - 24. Yes, it happens. This is why we judge teams, defenses, players, etc; over the course of a season. Not a single game. Quit being an idiot.

grampi wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

grampi wrote: The ranking is demonstrably wrong...

The ranking is based on objective, measurable, data... Please "demonstrate" how it is in error...

They just gave up 37 points...and don't give me this garbage that Philly's offense is so good they can't be stopped....

Apparently, the concept of "objective data" can be difficult to grasp.

grampi wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

grampi wrote:The ranking is demonstrably wrong...

The ranking is based on objective, measurable, data... Please "demonstrate" how it is in error...

They just gave up 37 points...and don't give me this garbage that Philly's offense is so good they can't be stopped....

Grampi --- I L-O-V-E it when people actually provide support with FACTS. But if you are going to do so, make sure they are correct. Our D didn't give up 37 points -- it was 27. Special teams gave up a kickoff for a TD and Cousins tossed an INT on the 35 yard line (the PHI offense only gained 2 yards on 4 post-INT plays and kicked the FG --- so I find it hard for anyone on earth to believe our D "caused" that FG).

That being said (and I have said as much in this thread), the "stats" provided by riggofan are lacking because they don't take into account relevant data needed to be considered in order to make a complete DEF ranking analysis. The ranking provided earlier was PURELY based on yards against. That is wildly insufficient to do a complete analysis. You need to take into consideration a NUMBER of different variables such as points against, schedule, time of possession, drives against, take aways, defensive points scored, starting opponent field position, sacks, total 3 and outs, etc.

Give me a break. I didn't post the ESPN defensive rankings like they're some definitive bible that tells the complete story of our defense. I posted them because the troll was on here shouting that we need to fire Haslett.

We are ranked #4 in TOTAL DEFENSE right now. You can sort those stats however you want, and we are still never worse than #12. I guarantee you we were never ranked higher than #28 last year no matter how you sorted or played with the stats.

Its just a ranking, its just a stat, take it for what its worth. My point was not that the ranking means we are a great defense. My point is that you look like an idiot to come on here drooling and shouting that the D is atrocious and Haslett needs to be fired just because we lost a high scoring game.

And why did you put "stats" in quotation marks? Do you doubt that what ESPN is posting are actually stats?

I have never seen that guy post a fact to back up anything ever. Its borderline hilarious that you're complimenting him on posting a fact that is factually untrue.

riggofan wrote:Give me a break. I didn't post the ESPN defensive rankings like they're some definitive bible that tells the complete story of our defense. I posted them because the troll was on here shouting that we need to fire Haslett.

We are ranked #4 in TOTAL DEFENSE right now. You can sort those stats however you want, and we are still never worse than #12. I guarantee you we were never ranked higher than #28 last year no matter how you sorted or played with the stats.

Its just a ranking, its just a stat, take it for what its worth. My point was not that the ranking means we are a great defense. My point is that you look like an idiot to come on here drooling and shouting that the D is atrocious and Haslett needs to be fired just because we lost a high scoring game.

And why did you put "stats" in quotation marks? Do you doubt that what ESPN is posting are actually stats?

I have never seen that guy post a fact to back up anything ever. Its borderline hilarious that you're complimenting him on posting a fact that is factually untrue.

Based on what you have said, I should have been more clear.

First, I understand why you provided the stat and I agree in principle that Haslett should not be fired. My post was merely trying to say the exact thing you posted: " I didn't post (or here, you can't post) the ESPN defensive rankings like they're some definitive bible that tells the complete story of our defense." That was basically what I was trying to say. The fact "we are ranked #4 in total defense" is misleading --- in that the term "total defense" is a term used by ESPN that only includes yards against and nothing more. When you think "total defense", I would assume based on the terminology that it encompasses much more than merely yards against. This being said, I 100% agree with you that our statistical rankings --- no matter how you look at them --- are superior to what they have been historically under Haslett.

I used "stats" not in an effort to infer they are not correct; but more to emphasize their incompleteness. You are not incorrect in what you provided --- at all.

And my post was essentially a response taking your total defense stat for was its worth --- it is an incomplete stat and worth quite little in determining where our D ranks among their peers. I was merely showing what additional information would be necessary. I don't think you disagree with that.

Oh and PLEASE do NOT think I was complimenting Grampi. Quite the opposite!!! The guy was trying to support himself using INCORRECT facts. There is nothing worse in my book. He was basically using incorrect data to support an incorrect argument. That being said, I will always give credit to opinions that are actually supported by stats or facts. IMHO, if you don't support an opinion with stats or facts, the opinion is as useless and without merit. And I, in no way shape or form, was saying Grampi provides facts -- ever. I have no clue how he supports his opinions since I don't have many back and forths with him (and generally stay out of opinion without facts type arguments among members of the forum --- since they really can go nowhere).

As far as the last statement, I totally agree --- I'd actually say it was TOTALLY hilarious (and not just boarderline) if I were complementing a post by Grampi predicated on incorrect facts..... but I'm not. I am actually telling him he's wrong and that if he wants anyone to take him seriously, he needs to actually use correct information.

I don't really care about stats, I was just making a general statement that our D (no matter what their ranking is) did not look like a 4th ranked D against Philly...the Fecals pretty much shredded them the entire game...we seem to be pretty good against the run, but our secondary is horrible...

markshark84 wrote:Based on what you have said, I should have been more clear.

Or I just completely misread your post! Sorry about that!

I did hear Mike Golic just refer to the Redskins as a "top 5 defense" on Mike & Mike this morning btw. So people out there understand that the team has been playing pretty well on defense so far. That's pretty amazing considering just how bad we were last year.

I have to admit I'm not overly optimistic that we'll finish the season as a "top 5 defense" in any category. Obviously we've only really played one quality offense and weren't nearly as successful in that game. Not to mention we've only played three games and the injuries are already piling up at some key positions.

grampi wrote:I don't really care about stats, I was just making a general statement that our D (no matter what their ranking is) did not look like a 4th ranked D against Philly...the Fecals pretty much shredded them the entire game...we seem to be pretty good against the run, but our secondary is horrible...

If you don't care about stats and the ability to use them in support of an argument, you're just tossing baseless and unsubstantiated opinions around. "Because I said so" doesn't go very far with this group.

I don't believe PHI "shredded" our DEF the ENTIRE game. While I agree that the first half was bad, our D held their own in the second half, only allowing 13 points on 7 drives (discounting for the INT/FG and end of game drive). An average of 1.8 points per drive is not what I (or anyone on this planet for that matter) would considered to be "shredded". I have always maintained that if our D gives up less than 23 ppg (which I actually think is the NFL average currently), they have done their job. With an average drive per game total in the NFL of 11.1 (and PHI had 11 total drives in this game discounting the 2 above) and an average points per drive amount of 1.8 -- PHI would have scored 20 points if you went on the second half alone (and 23 points if they had 13 drives as PHI did in this game without discounting). Therefore, I (and most) think it is pretty clear you are not correct in any way in saying that we were "shredded the entire game". Putting up an average total for an entire half against arguably one of the best offenses in the NFL is not a horrible thing.

As far as the secondary, PHI has a very good passing game and our 2ndary is the clear weakness within our D. IMHO Clark appears to have lost a step and Merriweather plays painfully stupid football. DHall is out for the year. The only guy in our 2ndary I have even a small piece of confidence in is Amerson (is it just me or does he appear to have really improved compared to 2013). When 3 of your 4 guys are below average, there will be serious problems unless our front 7 can get to the QB and get to him quick. I can almost guarantee you that Haslett knows that and is one of the major reasons for the aggressive style he implements. I would expect most opposing OFFs to test our 2ndary fairly consistently/all day-all night this year. I agree we looked good against the run, but I also believe that PHI's RBs are not built to run the ball and our front 7 are pretty decent. I would put PHI's run offense in the bottom 5-10 in the league.

As far as us being a top 5 DEF, I agree; we aren't. Yards against is a stat that depends on too many outside determinables to use by itself. That being said, our DEF appears above average at this point ---- and based on last year; I'll take that.

riggofan wrote:

markshark84 wrote:Based on what you have said, I should have been more clear.

Or I just completely misread your post! Sorry about that!

I did hear Mike Golic just refer to the Redskins as a "top 5 defense" on Mike & Mike this morning btw. So people out there understand that the team has been playing pretty well on defense so far. That's pretty amazing considering just how bad we were last year.

I have to admit I'm not overly optimistic that we'll finish the season as a "top 5 defense" in any category. Obviously we've only really played one quality offense and weren't nearly as successful in that game. Not to mention we've only played three games and the injuries are already piling up at some key positions.

It may have been a little of both, who knows.

I listen to Mike & Mike almost every morning, but my commute is less than 20 mins so I don't catch much and I feel like 50% of their show is commercials; that said, it's nice to hear something positive from him.

And our D does appear to have improved --- but we have a "top 5 defense" as much as we have a "top 2 offense".... especially considering we are 1-2.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/ ... TotalYards
Honestly, I think a better case can be made for the latter.....

markshark84 wrote:

grampi wrote:I don't really care about stats, I was just making a general statement that our D (no matter what their ranking is) did not look like a 4th ranked D against Philly...the Fecals pretty much shredded them the entire game...we seem to be pretty good against the run, but our secondary is horrible...

If you don't care about stats and the ability to use them in support of an argument, you're just tossing baseless and unsubstantiated opinions around. "Because I said so" doesn't go very far with this group.

I don't believe PHI "shredded" our DEF the ENTIRE game. While I agree that the first half was bad, our D held their own in the second half, only allowing 13 points on 7 drives (discounting for the INT/FG and end of game drive). An average of 1.8 points per drive is not what I (or anyone on this planet for that matter) would considered to be "shredded". I have always maintained that if our D gives up less than 23 ppg (which I actually think is the NFL average currently), they have done their job. With an average drive per game total in the NFL of 11.1 (and PHI had 11 total drives in this game discounting the 2 above) and an average points per drive amount of 1.8 -- PHI would have scored 20 points if you went on the second half alone (and 23 points if they had 13 drives as PHI did in this game without discounting). Therefore, I (and most) think it is pretty clear you are not correct in any way in saying that we were "shredded the entire game". Putting up an average total for an entire half against arguably one of the best offenses in the NFL is not a horrible thing.

As far as the secondary, PHI has a very good passing game and our 2ndary is the clear weakness within our D. IMHO Clark appears to have lost a step and Merriweather plays painfully stupid football. DHall is out for the year. The only guy in our 2ndary I have even a small piece of confidence in is Amerson (is it just me or does he appear to have really improved compared to 2013). When 3 of your 4 guys are below average, there will be serious problems unless our front 7 can get to the QB and get to him quick. I can almost guarantee you that Haslett knows that and is one of the major reasons for the aggressive style he implements. I would expect most opposing OFFs to test our 2ndary fairly consistently/all day-all night this year. I agree we looked good against the run, but I also believe that PHI's RBs are not built to run the ball and our front 7 are pretty decent. I would put PHI's run offense in the bottom 5-10 in the league.

As far as us being a top 5 DEF, I agree; we aren't. Yards against is a stat that depends on too many outside determinables to use by itself. That being said, our DEF appears above average at this point ---- and based on last year; I'll take that.

I may not keep track of stats, but I can certainly see what's going on by watching the game...and you basically said the same thing I did...we're not a 4th ranked D...

grampi wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

grampi wrote:I don't really care about stats, I was just making a general statement that our D (no matter what their ranking is) did not look like a 4th ranked D against Philly...the Fecals pretty much shredded them the entire game...we seem to be pretty good against the run, but our secondary is horrible...

If you don't care about stats and the ability to use them in support of an argument, you're just tossing baseless and unsubstantiated opinions around. "Because I said so" doesn't go very far with this group.

I don't believe PHI "shredded" our DEF the ENTIRE game. While I agree that the first half was bad, our D held their own in the second half, only allowing 13 points on 7 drives (discounting for the INT/FG and end of game drive). An average of 1.8 points per drive is not what I (or anyone on this planet for that matter) would considered to be "shredded". I have always maintained that if our D gives up less than 23 ppg (which I actually think is the NFL average currently), they have done their job. With an average drive per game total in the NFL of 11.1 (and PHI had 11 total drives in this game discounting the 2 above) and an average points per drive amount of 1.8 -- PHI would have scored 20 points if you went on the second half alone (and 23 points if they had 13 drives as PHI did in this game without discounting). Therefore, I (and most) think it is pretty clear you are not correct in any way in saying that we were "shredded the entire game". Putting up an average total for an entire half against arguably one of the best offenses in the NFL is not a horrible thing.

As far as the secondary, PHI has a very good passing game and our 2ndary is the clear weakness within our D. IMHO Clark appears to have lost a step and Merriweather plays painfully stupid football. DHall is out for the year. The only guy in our 2ndary I have even a small piece of confidence in is Amerson (is it just me or does he appear to have really improved compared to 2013). When 3 of your 4 guys are below average, there will be serious problems unless our front 7 can get to the QB and get to him quick. I can almost guarantee you that Haslett knows that and is one of the major reasons for the aggressive style he implements. I would expect most opposing OFFs to test our 2ndary fairly consistently/all day-all night this year. I agree we looked good against the run, but I also believe that PHI's RBs are not built to run the ball and our front 7 are pretty decent. I would put PHI's run offense in the bottom 5-10 in the league.

As far as us being a top 5 DEF, I agree; we aren't. Yards against is a stat that depends on too many outside determinables to use by itself. That being said, our DEF appears above average at this point ---- and based on last year; I'll take that.

I may not keep track of stats, but I can certainly see what's going on by watching the game...and you basically said the same thing I did...we're not a 4th ranked D...

Well, after the first half against NYG I'm not sure how anyone could disagree with you. We look like a bottom 5 DEF --- and I'm not sure how anyone could dispute that. Our D just sucks. Gonzaga High School D could give these guys a run for their $$$

The skins D as currently constructed and coached would not be a top 5 defense in the SEC, much less the NFL. Not too many winnable games left on the schedule.

DarthMonk wrote:I think the premise of this thread is absurd.

Before anybody says ... wait ...

Different coaches, different players, same results...nothing ever changes with this team...

grampi wrote:Different coaches, different players, same results...nothing ever changes with this team...

Nothing about this team will change until the owner is changed. The buck stops at the owner and he has single handedly destroyed this franchise. I get that often times first round picks don't pan out, but who in the hell gambles off three first round picks to move up a few spots in the draft, a franchise with deplorable management does. You mess up on those things you mess up on all kinds of other things.

NYFINESTSKINSFAN wrote:

grampi wrote:Different coaches, different players, same results...nothing ever changes with this team...

Nothing about this team will change until the owner is changed. The buck stops at the owner and he has single handedly destroyed this franchise. I get that often times first round picks don't pan out, but who in the hell gambles off three first round picks to move up a few spots in the draft, a franchise with deplorable management does. You mess up on those things you mess up on all kinds of other things.

We have one of the worst owners in football --- he is not only a horrible owner, but a bad person in general. I have heard nothing but bad things about him as an individual from a number of people that know him personally and/or have worked with him.

And DESPERATE franchises are the ones that give up more than they should. Snyder STINKS of desperation. He has failed so much as an owner, yet still has this obnoxious ego. I am not sure how anyone on the planet could think he is not one of the worst 5 owners in the NFL. It's great that he wants to spend $$$, but that doesn't make great teams. He has been paying filet mignon prices for chuck roast since the day he got here. He hires and fires people like he's on the apprentice. There is so much disfunction within the organization it is laughable.

I'm not a Snyder fan by any stretch but to think that he has or had anything to do with what happened last night is laughable

we have a severe lack of depth and that combined with a horrible effort from the QB plus some bad play all over the field was the reason for what we saw

We are not a good team at this time but that has ZERO to do with Snyder and we are not near as bad as we looked

A VERY disappointing game against a divisional rival that is perhaps the worst team in the NFC East

SkinsJock wrote:I'm not a Snyder fan by any stretch but to think that he has or had anything to do with what happened last night is laughable

we have a severe lack of depth and that combined with a horrible effort from the QB plus some bad play all over the field was the reason for what we saw

We are not a good team at this time but that has ZERO to do with Snyder and we are not near as bad as we looked

A VERY disappointing game against a divisional rival that is perhaps the worst team in the NFC East

You are totally missing the point --- this is about big picture. This game serves as an example of the current state of the franchise from the bottom up. Think wider.

The first emphasized point --- couldn't be more wrong. The success, or lack thereof, has more to do with the owner than it does with anyone else within the franchise. The owner controls EVERYTHING. That's like saying a company's stock price has nothing to do with their CEO That literally makes no sense. It's not based on pure luck that great owners win SBs --- and most commonly great owners are the ones that don't mettle in football decisions (and if you think Snyder doesn't get involved, you are just not correct; I have heard a couple stories recently from individuals that would know these things --- stories I didn't hear while MS was coaching).

The 2nd emphasized point ---- we just lost 45-14 AT HOME and you are saying the victorious team that just made us look like a high school team is "the worst team in the NFC east"????????? Does that sound right to you? WE are the worst team in the NFC East --- by a good margin. It's time to remove those B&G goggles and see what reality really looks like.

grampi wrote:I may not keep track of stats, but I can certainly see what's going on by watching the game...and you basically said the same thing I did...we're not a 4th ranked D...

Gramps, you will find that when I'm wrong (or in this case, partially wrong), I man up. It doesn't happen very often, so I sort of enjoy it a bit.

You were correct --- stats can only get you so far. That being said, I wouldn't go around tossing opinions without at least a reason for why you concluded in the way you did --- nevertheless, I have put you on my poster respect list. You may not give 2 dumps (and I don't blame you), but it is a fairly exclusive list.

markshark84 wrote:

grampi wrote:I may not keep track of stats, but I can certainly see what's going on by watching the game...and you basically said the same thing I did...we're not a 4th ranked D...

Gramps, you will find that when I'm wrong (or in this case, partially wrong), I man up. It doesn't happen very often, so I sort of enjoy it a bit.

You were correct --- stats can only get you so far. That being said, I wouldn't go around tossing opinions without at least a reason for why you concluded in the way you did --- nevertheless, I have put you on my poster respect list. You may not give 2 dumps (and I don't blame you), but it is a fairly exclusive list.

That's some good advice...and thanks...and I must say, this is a much nicer place since I've placed the "name callers" on ignore...you know the ones, if they disagree with you then you're a (insert derogatory name here)...

SkinsJock wrote:I'm not a Snyder fan by any stretch but to think that he has or had anything to do with what happened last night is laughable

we have a severe lack of depth and that combined with a horrible effort from the QB plus some bad play all over the field was the reason for what we saw

We are not a good team at this time but that has ZERO to do with Snyder and we are not near as bad as we looked

A VERY disappointing game against a divisional rival that is perhaps the worst team in the NFC East

Very shortsighted.

How in god's name we went into the season with this secondary and these inside linebackers and thought we would be fine is beyond me. We have one of the least talented back 6's in the league, and this Hall injury has made it even worse.

not sure that we went into this season thinking that we were 'fine' - we were not able to address 2 huge areas of concern - the O line and the secondary

gong in we looked like we would be competitive in the division, mostly because the pukes and giants looked horrible - we shall see ...

we are not doing well but the last game was an aberration - we need to do better and I have confidence in the coaching and the players


I prefer to see this season in a more positive light than some

Mirttinur wrote:How in god's name we went into the season with this secondary and these inside linebackers and thought we would be fine is beyond me. We have one of the least talented back 6's in the league, and this Hall injury has made it even worse.

What's wrong with our inside linebackers?