The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I'm not a start Cousins now advocate, but the people who keep bringing up his stats in 2013 are clearly behind Griffin and somehow want Cousins to fail (or think he just flat out sucks). I think this is wrong. Why is it so bad to want both to succeed? There's a very real chance Griffin will get injured again this year. That's why we didn't trade Cousins. He's the insurance plan. And for all of those excusing Griffin's horrible 2013 season with legitimate reasons (knee injury, no offseason, etc.) you can't argue that Cousins is flat out horrible based off of 4 regular NFL appearances. Especially when in at least 2 of those, the team had all but already mailed it in. It's not fair to Cousins. Believe it or not, he, despite playing in a more pro style offense in college, has less pro experience than Griffin. Mistakes were bound to be made. Especially with Rex Grossman on the bench in his ear. He can, and I hope he does, get better.

I do not want to trade Kirk Cousins at this time unless someone makes us a stupid offer

I think that RG3 is a better QB but I also think that Kirk Cousins is a good NFL QB

And it is ok to admit that Griffin has struggled in the preseason. It doesn't mean he sucks, or is a bust. I'm 100% positive that Gruden is holding back his real gameplan for the regular season, and that the offense will look much better come week 1. However, Griffin has struggled even running the "vanilla" offense play calling this preseason. And this isn't just some blowhard armchair quarterbacks saying this, these are analysts and professionals saying the same thing. It's ok to admit it.

What happened to Old School?!

StorminMormon86 wrote:I'm not a start Cousins now advocate, but the people who keep bringing up his stats in 2013 are clearly behind Griffin and somehow want Cousins to fail (or think he just flat out sucks). I think this is wrong. Why is it so bad to want both to succeed? There's a very real chance Griffin will get injured again this year. That's why we didn't trade Cousins. He's the insurance plan. And for all of those excusing Griffin's horrible 2013 season with legitimate reasons (knee injury, no offseason, etc.) you can't argue that Cousins is flat out horrible based off of 4 regular NFL appearances. Especially when in at least 2 of those, the team had all but already mailed it in. It's not fair to Cousins. Believe it or not, he, despite playing in a more pro style offense in college, has less pro experience than Griffin. Mistakes were bound to be made. Especially with Rex Grossman on the bench in his ear. He can, and I hope he does, get better.

Your premise is off. Using stats/metrics/NUMBERS to refute the supposition that Cousins should start is not the same thing as saying he sucks/want him to fail (for me anyway). I LOVE Kirk Cousins. I actually want him to keep being inconsistent on tape right through the end of his contract so we can resign him, because I think he will be an OUTSTANDING backup. I really don't want to lose him. MY sincere hope is that he gets better over the course of this and next year, but no one knows it but us, while Griffin shuts up the naysayers, ulterior agenda anti-fans, and Joe Theismann (Especially Theismann), thus entrenching Griffin as the top tier QB he showed he was on the road to becoming in 2012/I believe he is/will be. That way, when Kirk's contract is up, he can resign here and all's well. The preceding may require magic to pull off, but, you know, gotta have dreams.

StorminMormon86 wrote:What happened to Old School?!

Bus?
Escaped gorilla?
They cut off his/her internet?
His/Her usual waiting until something negative happens to start posting?

Double post.

emoses14 wrote:Your premise is off. Using stats/metrics/NUMBERS to refute the supposition that Cousins should start is not the same thing as saying he sucks/want him to fail (for me anyway). I LOVE Kirk Cousins. I actually want him to keep being inconsistent on tape right through the end of his contract so we can resign him, because I think he will be an OUTSTANDING backup. I really don't want to lose him. MY sincere hope is that he gets better over the course of this and next year, but no one knows it but us, while Griffin shuts up the naysayers, ulterior agenda anti-fans, and Joe Theismann (Especially Theismann), thus entrenching Griffin as the top tier QB he showed he was on the road to becoming in 2012/I believe he is/will be. That way, when Kirk's contract is up, he can resign here and all's well. The preceding may require magic to pull off, but, you know, gotta have dreams.

I wasn't referring to anyone here in particular, it's just other comments on articles and other message boards that say the same thing over and over. Certain fans are trying to pick a side, and I don't see the point in doing it.

StorminMormon86 wrote:

emoses14 wrote:Your premise is off. Using stats/metrics/NUMBERS to refute the supposition that Cousins should start is not the same thing as saying he sucks/want him to fail (for me anyway). I LOVE Kirk Cousins. I actually want him to keep being inconsistent on tape right through the end of his contract so we can resign him, because I think he will be an OUTSTANDING backup. I really don't want to lose him. MY sincere hope is that he gets better over the course of this and next year, but no one knows it but us, while Griffin shuts up the naysayers, ulterior agenda anti-fans, and Joe Theismann (Especially Theismann), thus entrenching Griffin as the top tier QB he showed he was on the road to becoming in 2012/I believe he is/will be. That way, when Kirk's contract is up, he can resign here and all's well. The preceding may require magic to pull off, but, you know, gotta have dreams.

I wasn't referring to anyone here in particular, it's just other comments on articles and other message boards that say the same thing over and over. Certain fans are trying to pick a side, and I don't see the point in doing it.

Ah.
Yeah, they both play for my team. I want them both to play well when put into the game.

StorminMormon86 wrote:are clearly behind Griffin and somehow want Cousins to fail

What a stupid post. The only one who wants Cousins to fail is OldSchool, and Pods is a Browns fan. No Redskins fans want either quarterback to fail. Debating who we think is better is not wanting the other to fail and to suggest it is puts any conversation about it in the sewer off the bat and any discussion on the topic pointless. If you have a valid point, you just torpedoed it. And if you didn't, well, I guess you hit the mark with this post. Ridiculous.

StorminMormon86 wrote:

emoses14 wrote:Your premise is off. Using stats/metrics/NUMBERS to refute the supposition that Cousins should start is not the same thing as saying he sucks/want him to fail (for me anyway). I LOVE Kirk Cousins. I actually want him to keep being inconsistent on tape right through the end of his contract so we can resign him, because I think he will be an OUTSTANDING backup. I really don't want to lose him. MY sincere hope is that he gets better over the course of this and next year, but no one knows it but us, while Griffin shuts up the naysayers, ulterior agenda anti-fans, and Joe Theismann (Especially Theismann), thus entrenching Griffin as the top tier QB he showed he was on the road to becoming in 2012/I believe he is/will be. That way, when Kirk's contract is up, he can resign here and all's well. The preceding may require magic to pull off, but, you know, gotta have dreams.

I wasn't referring to anyone here in particular, it's just other comments on articles and other message boards that say the same thing over and over. Certain fans are trying to pick a side, and I don't see the point in doing it.

We are on the side of the Redskins and we are talking about which quarterback makes winning more likely

KazooSkinsFan wrote:What a stupid post. The only one who wants Cousins to fail is OldSchool, and Pods is a Browns fan. No Redskins fans want either quarterback to fail. Debating who we think is better is not wanting the other to fail and to suggest it is puts any conversation about it in the sewer off the bat and any discussion on the topic pointless. If you have a valid point, you just torpedoed it. And if you didn't, well, I guess you hit the mark with this post. Ridiculous.

Pretty sure OldSchool wants Cousins to succeed and Griffin to fail, but ok. People (not necessarily on here) have said Cousins sucks, which I don't think is entirely true based off of four games. I'm not sure why you can't understand that.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:We are on the side of the Redskins and we are talking about which quarterback makes winning more likely

I honestly think we could win with both QBs.

StorminMormon86 wrote:And for all of those excusing Griffin's horrible 2013 season

I'm still waiting for those saying last season was "horrible" for RGIII to explain why? Granted, there was a sharp drop off from his rookie campaign, but in no way was it a horrible season for RGIII. The stats clearly show that he was middle of the road amongst NFL starters.

StorminMormon86 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:What a stupid post. The only one who wants Cousins to fail is OldSchool, and Pods is a Browns fan. No Redskins fans want either quarterback to fail. Debating who we think is better is not wanting the other to fail and to suggest it is puts any conversation about it in the sewer off the bat and any discussion on the topic pointless. If you have a valid point, you just torpedoed it. And if you didn't, well, I guess you hit the mark with this post. Ridiculous.

Pretty sure OldSchool wants Cousins to succeed and Griffin to fail, but ok.

"OldSchool" or Pods, has always hated the Redskins. He wants to start Cousins, do the math...

StorminMormon86 wrote:People (not necessarily on here) have said Cousins sucks, which I don't think is entirely true based off of four games. I'm not sure why you can't understand that.

I haven't seen anyone say Cousins "sucks." He was a fourth round draft choice, and after two years the best offer we got for him was a fourth round draft choice. However, where that adds up to anyone wanting him to fail means there's something I "can't understand" doesn't compute.

StorminMormon86 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:We are on the side of the Redskins and we are talking about which quarterback makes winning more likely

I honestly think we could win with both QBs.

My concern with Cousins is his arm. It's like the Grossman days where he goes back, heaves it down the field, ten yards behind the receiver.

Griffin flicks his wrist and it zips to a receiver across and down the field. And his rookie year, he broke our trend of throwing to only cooley and moss and spread it around. He was off a year, I will grant you he's struggling right now, but there is no reason not to be patient, and every reason to be patient. He does have vision. He just has to get back in the rhythm. We really need our O line to step up and protect him and our D to get the O back on the field though to help the kid out.

Perfectly put.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:I haven't seen anyone say Cousins "sucks." He was a fourth round draft choice, and after two years the best offer we got for him was a fourth round draft choice. However, where that adds up to anyone wanting him to fail means there's something I "can't understand" doesn't compute.

StorminMormon86 wrote:People (not necessarily on here) have said Cousins sucks...

Ok, let's break it down this way: when people point out Griffin's flaws, some other people point out the struggles that Cousins had in the last three games last year, and then point out his stats in those 3 games. They're essentially saying, "yeah but look at what Cousins did when he had his chance". AKA, he sucked. And I disagree with that. You can't write him off after 4 starts. And I've never written Griffin off after 2 seasons. All I'm saying is that people better hope Cousins fixes his problems because there's a very good chance he'll be either coming into a game or having to start for us somewhere down the line this season. And, IIRC, the Skins were offered a third rounder for him last year but declined.

Deadskins wrote:

StorminMormon86 wrote:And for all of those excusing Griffin's horrible 2013 season

I'm still waiting for those saying last season was "horrible" for RGIII to explain why? Granted, there was a sharp drop off from his rookie campaign, but in no way was it a horrible season for RGIII. The stats clearly show that he was middle of the road amongst NFL starters.

Well, I am a pretty big RGIII fan, but I would consider last year --- merely from a playing perspective --- horrible for RGIII. I think his stats are misleading; after all, he did have more passing yards in 2013 vs. 2012. But while his stats don't appear horrible, his added value was. There are a couple ratings that take stats and manipulate them to determine value at the QB position --- and those show RGIII was one of the worst QBs in the league last year.
- He was 29th in QBR. What makes this stat "horrible" is that only 2 QBs (Geno Smith & Eli Manning) who played over 10 games last year had a worse rating. IMHO, QBR is one of the stronger measurement tools to determine how well or how much added value a QB gives to an offense.
- He was 22nd in QB rating.
- His PFF rating of -3.1, showing that his "stats" were padded with short 1-10 yd passes and his accuracy continued to plummet the longer his attempts went. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... n-cousins/
- Football Outsiders ranked him 32nd best in the league last year. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

That being said, I don't put much value into last year. RGIII was injured and COMPLETELY not ready to return in September of 2013. Looking back, I think it would have been better for him to sit out the entire year. I just hope moving forward that 2013 doesn't hurt the mental aspect of his game. This season will be a make or break on for RGIII. I personally think that he has the tools based on what I saw in 2012; I just hope that he can return to that form ---- while learning how to protect himself.

The Little One mortgaged the franchise on a QB who is one injury away from being an announcer and playing like a second stringer and this guy is talking about playoffs. SIGH. The division is very weak and Dallas and the G-Men have nothing and yes it will be refreshing "to probably" not to finish DFL in the division again (and the NFC), but stop the crazy talk. You sound like Larry Michaels or the knucklehead who sits one row behind me on Sundays. If Gruden can make them a consistent .500 team no one would be disappointed with that.

markshark84 wrote:Well, I am a pretty big RGIII fan, but I would consider last year --- merely from a playing perspective --- horrible for RGIII. I think his stats are misleading; after all, he did have more passing yards in 2013 vs. 2012. But while his stats don't appear horrible, his added value was. There are a couple ratings that take stats and manipulate them to determine value at the QB position --- and those show RGIII was one of the worst QBs in the league last year.
- He was 29th in QBR. What makes this stat "horrible" is that only 2 QBs (Geno Smith & Eli Manning) who played over 10 games last year had a worse rating. IMHO, QBR is one of the stronger measurement tools to determine how well or how much added value a QB gives to an offense.
- He was 22nd in QB rating.
- His PFF rating of -3.1, showing that his "stats" were padded with short 1-10 yd passes and his accuracy continued to plummet the longer his attempts went. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... n-cousins/
- Football Outsiders ranked him 32nd best in the league last year. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

Well, I think your assesment there is totally misleading. You make it sound like Football Outsiders had him dead last, but that was 32 out of 45 (Kirk Cousins came in 41st, BTW), and the ranking was on DYAR (Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement). A much better indicator would be DVOA (Defense-adjusted Value Over Average) where he is ranked 31st. Still not great, but compared to KC's 45th ranking, looks pretty good.

And yes, PFF gave him a -3.1 overall (Kirk getting a -8.4, BTW), though he ranked very high in certain categories, while not doing so well in others:

Positives

• Throws best to the right (+4.3).
• Handles blitz pressure better than most (0.0).
• Showed well on shorter drops (4-6 yards) at +2.6.
• Among the league’s best on throws between 5-10 yards (+7.9), including an above average Accuracy Percentage of 80.7%.
• One of the league’s best on third down at +9.5, particularly 3rd-and-Medium where his +6.2 ranked fourth in the league, and showed well whether blitzed (+3.0) or against traditional rush (+6.5).
• Best grades came while throwing to outside wide receivers, including +3.2 when throwing to a tight end that was split wide.
• Best route was post routes (+6.3), including +2.3 on play action

Negatives

• Graded at -4.0 on passes in the 11-20 yard range.
• Among the league’s worst on throws of 20+ yards (-7.1), particularly the 21-to-30-yard range (-4.0).
• Below average on throws to the left (-1.3) and over the middle (-2.0).
• Struggled against traditional rush at -7.0, particularly when pressured (-10.2).
• One of the league’s worst on 9+ yard drops at -3.8.
• After a strong showing as a rookie, Griffin was one of the league’s worst on play action at -5.3, including -9.0 on first down.
• Graded poorly on crossing routes (-1.5) and go routes (-1.4).

But unless you go through every other QB you can't tell where he ranks in relation to other QBs.

He also played in 2 less games in 2013 than he did in 2012, and the fact he got more yards passing says something about his inability to run like he did pre-injury in 2012. Point is, you still haven't convinced me 2013 was a horrible year for RGIII. Sorry, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I think Griffin has the talent -- arm, brain, legs -- to be a good NFL QB. This might be the time to trade Cousins to St Louis for a first and second round draft choice.

welch wrote:I think Griffin has the talent -- arm, brain, legs -- to be a good NFL QB. This might be the time to trade Cousins to St Louis for a first and second round draft choice.

If anyone offers a 1 & a 2, I'm sure we would jump on it.

FLWSkin wrote:We get that it's your opinion, but how about giving RG and the team more than a couple of quarters in preseason to get it worked out. I'm sorry, I've watched the games, and he is no where near as horrible as you make him out to be. And the fact that you gloss over the fact that Kirk has had several ints thrown and dropped kinda ruins your point.

Finally, someone makes sense. Griffin hasn't thrown enough in preseason to make a judgement, and, actually, his percentage of completions in pretty high. He's also had some bad luck (dropped passes) and two injured primary receivers, as well as lousy overall play by the OL. Not even Alfred has had much of a shot. Calm down for now. Let the man at least attempt more than 15 or so passes before you make a judgment.

I didn't mean to imply earlier that Luck was on the table. He was in that draft class and he is the best QB of that draft class is what I was saying.

I would be THRILLED to see Griffin perform and progress. I think it would be a huge boost for him, the team, the coaches and the fans. I would LOVE to see him surprise me, and many others, by proving us all wrong and set the woods on fire! I just see what I see in the guy and I simply do NOT expect it to happen. I'm really more concerned that Griffin doesn't fir well with Gruden's offensive scheme. It would seem like that would have been considered when hiring coaches. I would be elated to be proven wrong about Griffin. I'll order the most expensive crow to eat should that occur.