Pastor Turned Atheist

[crazyhorse1]

How can a person know that God does not exist?

I don't know, big guy. But how could anyone say it's probable.

[Deadskins]

How can a person know that God does not exist?

I don't know, big guy. But how could anyone say it's probable.

Say what's probable?

[Cappster]

Agnostic Atheist- Lack of belief in god

Gnostic Atheist- Knowing that god does not exist.

Both do not see the evidence for god's existence, but an agnostic is open to the possibility that they may be wrong while an gnostic is not. It's kind of like a person of faith believing that god exists compared to knowing that god exists.

How can a person know that God does not exist?

It's the same as someone claiming to know, without any doubt, that god does exist. The lack of tangible evidence for the gnostic atheist type usually leads them to the conclusion that they *know* god doesn't exists. The gnostic believer and gnostic unbeliever both have deeply flawed spiritual viewpoints as god has yet to conclusively be proven or disproven. I am in the camp of being open to the possibility of a god existing; however, given the lack of evidence for such a being existing, the percentages of one existing is probably in the single percentile. All this god has to do is give us all the same *vision* to prove that it is real. I won't hold my breath for that to happen.

[SkinsJock]

I have no problem with the fact that there are people who know that God exists and that there are people who believe God exists …
and
that the same holds true for those that do not know or believe that God exists

I choose to believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit

I don't need "proof"

I also happen to think that doubting that God exists is, in a way, believing in God

[Cappster]

I have no problem with the fact that there are people who know that God exists and that there are people who believe God exists …
and
that the same holds true for those that do not know or believe that God exists

I choose to believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit

I don't need "proof"

I also happen to think that doubting that God exists is, in a way, believing in God

If lacking belief in a god is a way of believing in such a deity then abstinence is a sex position. It just doesn't add up to any logical sense. I do have a problem with people who say they believe in god 100% as this leads down the slippery slope of them talking to god and doing what god tells them. It's called insanity. If I said Christopher Hitchens and I talked daily (an atheist who died a couple of years ago) then I would be viewed as being wacky and possessed by satan. If I say I am talking to god and he told me to run for public office, that is considered normal. If god told me to murder my son to prove my love for him, I would be locked up in a looney bin.

Also, as an example, imagine that there is a Muslim SkinsJock that is just like you. He doesn't need proof that Allah exists, because he chooses to just have faith. You both claim to have the correct faith and that you both were fortunate enough to receive the revelation although the two religions aka god's are not the same. If you believe that muslim SkinsJock is wrong and he believes you are wrong then where do you go from there? Could it be that whoever provides some tangible evidence for the existence of their god wins?

[Deadskins]

Agnostic Atheist- Lack of belief in god

Gnostic Atheist- Knowing that god does not exist.

Both do not see the evidence for god's existence, but an agnostic is open to the possibility that they may be wrong while an gnostic is not. It's kind of like a person of faith believing that god exists compared to knowing that god exists.

How can a person know that God does not exist?

It's the same as someone claiming to know, without any doubt, that god does exist.

No, I don't think it is. There is no way to prove the non-existence of God, but a reasonable person can have an experience that proves, for them, the existence of God. I know this because I am such a person.

The lack of tangible evidence for the gnostic atheist type usually leads them to the conclusion that they *know* god doesn't exists. The gnostic believer and gnostic unbeliever both have deeply flawed spiritual viewpoints as god has yet to conclusively be proven or disproven. I am in the camp of being open to the possibility of a god existing; however, given the lack of evidence for such a being existing, the percentages of one existing is probably in the single percentile. All this god has to do is give us all the same *vision* to prove that it is real. I won't hold my breath for that to happen.

Just because the evidence is not tangible, or has not been revealed to someone, doesn't mean that the evidence does not exist. I shared my experience in another thread, but I will recap it here for the sake of this discussion. My mother told me on the night she died that God was calling her to Him. Now, by itself, that statement doesn't constitute proof, but the fact that she was 500 miles away at the time, and not speaking to me through any electronic medium, but rather it was her spirit that told me this, does. At least for me it does. Could I have hallucinated the entire experience, coincidentally, on the night she died? I suppose it's possible, but it's much more probable that I didn't. This is why I can state that I know God exists.

[Cappster]

Science has yet to disprove the existence of god, but that doesn't mean it can't or won't happen one day. I am not ruling out that some parallel universe exists, but if one does exist that doesn't mean that god is in control of it. You had a personal experience such like Moses had a personal experience. What I am saying is that if god wants to be known, come out and give us all the same personal experience of its existence. I've had Deja Vu before, but does that mean I was able to see into the future or that god was sending me a message? And you stating that you know for certain god exists off of an untestable personal experience I think is a bit much.

[Deadskins]

Science has yet to disprove the existence of god, but that doesn't mean it can't or won't happen one day.

Yes, I'm saying that's exactly what that means. There is no possible way to prove something does not exist.

I am not ruling out that some parallel universe exists, but if one does exist that doesn't mean that god is in control of it.

Never said it did.

You had a personal experience such like Moses had a personal experience.

Correct. So are you saying that Moses couldn't say that he knew God exists, even though he had no tangable proof? I doubt that you, having the same experience that Moses did, would still feel the same way.

What I am saying is that if god wants to be known, come out and give us all the same personal experience of its existence.

You always try to force your perspective onto God.

I've had Deja Vu before, but does that mean I was able to see into the future or that god was sending me a message?

No, what's your point? (Deja Vu would be seeing into the past, btw) You should intereperet your experience in your own way. I think my experience is a little more profound than Deja Vu, though.

And you stating that you know for certain god exists off of an untestable personal experience I think is a bit much.

Why? In previous discussions, you professed a belief in "spirit energies" based off personal experience. I didn't offer my experience as a way to prove to you that God exists. I offered it as an explanation of how it proved to me that God exists.

[SkinsJock]

I don't think that because I believe in God that anyone that does not, is 'wrong' …

I also don't think that because a muslim believes in Allah that he's wrong

My way of believing and how I worship God is just that - it's not 'right', it's just the way I choose to be 'in touch'

I'm quite happy to feel better through prayer but I don't get upset about the fact that many do not

this is a freedom of choice thing for me …

I choose to believe in God

and

I also choose to be a part of a church community in my own way - not in a way that is prescribed for me

[Cappster]

I've recorded voice anomalies from what I expect to be some sort of "spirit energy" otherwise known as something I cannot yet fully explain. I can share the audio recording if you like. The bottom line with this god creature is that it is very mysterious and doesn't need to use smoke and mirrors to reveal its existence to a select few. I am a father to my son and he knows that, without a doubt, I am real. He can see me, touch me, hear my voice, have a conversation with me, etc... Why is it so hard for this god to do the same thing if it truly exists? And I don't care if people believe in a god. I do; however, find it troubling when people invoke the name of god and of doing god's will to push forth their agenda i.e. denying homosexuals a right to marry, trying to ban birth control, forcing religion (only one religion though) into schools, teaching that the Earth is only 6,000 years old, flying planes into buildings, etc... If someone wants to be spiritually in touch with some god then go for it. Trying to conclusively tell me that god exists with zero doubt in their minds and then trying to force the beliefs of what that person feels god has told them to do is what I have the biggest problem with.

On a side note, just looking at the planet that a supposed god created us on that was made just for us...it is a rather hostile environment for life.

[Deadskins]

Trying to conclusively tell me that god exists with zero doubt in their minds and then trying to force the beliefs of what that person feels god has told them to do is what I have the biggest problem with.

I agree with you. But that is not an issue with God, it is an issue with the behavior of people.

On a side note, just looking at the planet that a supposed god created us on that was made just for us...it is a rather hostile environment for life.

And yet it is teeming with life. Perhaps the hostile environment strengthens the life that exists.

[DarthMonk]

What amazing ability and power I have. If I say the word "God," he pops into existence. Now I'll create a unicorn--I don't know diddly about unicorns.

Nope.

Your invoking God doesn't make Him exist, but it does contradict your supposed non-belief in Him. So I mis-spoke. I should have said your statement requires the belief in the existence of God.

Mis-spoke again. Saying don't know diddly about unicorns does not contradict a non-belief in them. I'm liking some of your other posts here, though. Active thread lately.

[DarthMonk]

There is no possible way to prove something does not exist.

A largest prime number does not exist. That fact has been conclusively proven. Just sayin'.

I do no believe the non-existence of God can be proven and as far as I'm concerned, any hard-line atheist has such a proof incumbent upon him. That's why I don't give hard-line atheists much attention.

You spoke earlier of proof for an individual based on an experience they had. This is exactly what I meant months (or years) ago when I spoke of evidence that really can't be shared. You can tell me about it but I can't share the experience with you the way I can when we both see a cup of coffee get spilled.

God might exist. God might not exist. If you think you know God exists then more power to you. I'm just not buying that claim in it's totality. I'm not calling you a liar. Maybe I just put words in your mouth and, if I did, I'm sorry.

[Cappster]

Trying to conclusively tell me that god exists with zero doubt in their minds and then trying to force the beliefs of what that person feels god has told them to do is what I have the biggest problem with.

I agree with you. But that is not an issue with God, it is an issue with the behavior of people.

On a side note, just looking at the planet that a supposed god created us on that was made just for us...it is a rather hostile environment for life.

And yet it is teeming with life. Perhaps the hostile environment strengthens the life that exists.

If god commands in his holy book(s) that certain punishments shall be carried out for working on the sabbath or being an adulterer (death), then how can we place blame on the followers and not the one who is commanding such an action? And if you say that god is separate from religion I disagree. The commandments of god comes directly from religious doctrine and dogma.

If the Earth was made for mankind, it should be without volcanoes, earthquakes, typhoons, tornadoes, and a disproportionate percentage of salt water compared to that of fresh water. Not to mention the threat of a catastrophic, life ending asteroid hitting the Earth. I see no benefit of having these challenges to overcome especially when the earth was "created" with all of these imperfections.

[Deadskins]

What amazing ability and power I have. If I say the word "God," he pops into existence. Now I'll create a unicorn--I don't know diddly about unicorns.

Nope.

Your invoking God doesn't make Him exist, but it does contradict your supposed non-belief in Him. So I mis-spoke. I should have said your statement requires the belief in the existence of God.

Mis-spoke again. Saying don't know diddly about unicorns does not contradict a non-belief in them. I'm liking some of your other posts here, though. Active thread lately.

Thats what I said. If he had said the Unicorn, then he would have been giving a proper analog to his original statement. Note the colored letters in his quote.

[Deadskins]

There is no possible way to prove something does not exist.

A largest prime number does not exist. That fact has been conclusively proven. Just sayin'.

Yeah, I wondered if someone might use an example like that when I wrote it, but obviously by this statement:

I do no believe the non-existence of God can be proven

you understood what I was getting at.

[Deadskins]

Trying to conclusively tell me that god exists with zero doubt in their minds and then trying to force the beliefs of what that person feels god has told them to do is what I have the biggest problem with.

I agree with you. But that is not an issue with God, it is an issue with the behavior of people.

On a side note, just looking at the planet that a supposed god created us on that was made just for us...it is a rather hostile environment for life.

And yet it is teeming with life. Perhaps the hostile environment strengthens the life that exists.

If god commands in his holy book(s)...

Sorry, you've already gone off track. It is not God's book. He didn't write it.

[Cappster]

Sorry, you've already gone off track. It is not God's book. He didn't write it.

So the existence of god, whatever it may be, is intrinsic? How did you learn of such a being existing such as the god of Abraham or whatever god you worship? What is your gods name? How do you know you are following gods will? How do you communicate with god and does he respond back? If you never experienced any sort of theology, do you think you would still believe in god or even know that one exists?

[Cappster]

And furthermore, Deadskins, if you don't believe that the bible is the word of god, then you must not be a Christian?

[Deadskins]

And furthermore, Deadskins, if you don't believe that the bible is the word of god, then you must not be a Christian?

I think the Bible is the word of man. It is full of stories relating other peoples' experiences interacting with God, and so it contains many useful lessons for developing a relationship with God. I don't get why you can't understand that, or why you think that belief is mutually exclusive to being a Christian.

[Cappster]

And furthermore, Deadskins, if you don't believe that the bible is the word of god, then you must not be a Christian?

I think the Bible is the word of man. It is full of stories relating other peoples' experiences interacting with God, and so it contains many useful lessons for developing a relationship with God. I don't get why you can't understand that, or why you think that belief is mutually exclusive to being a Christian.

Where does the story of Jesus comes from if it does not come from the bible? Does it just magically *poof* into a persons head? Is it Jesus who is god? Is it Yahweh/Allah/Mithra/Oden/Zeus? Who and or what is this being?

[Deadskins]

And furthermore, Deadskins, if you don't believe that the bible is the word of god, then you must not be a Christian?

I think the Bible is the word of man. It is full of stories relating other peoples' experiences interacting with God, and so it contains many useful lessons for developing a relationship with God. I don't get why you can't understand that, or why you think that belief is mutually exclusive to being a Christian.

Where does the story of Jesus comes from if it does not come from the bible? Does it just magically *poof* into a persons head?

Did you even read what I wrote, or were you in too big a hurry to post your response?

[Cappster]

Did you even read what I wrote, or were you in too big a hurry to post your response?

Yes, I have. You say you don't need the bible to know god. I've asked if your god's name Jesus, Yahweh, or something else? And if a person doesn't need the bible to know your god, how do they get to know Jesus. I mean, if you identify as a Christian(?) then you would have of found out about CHrist through biblical based teachings and if not, how did you get to know god/Jesus/Yahweh?

[Deadskins]

Did you even read what I wrote, or were you in too big a hurry to post your response?

Yes, I have. You say you don't need the bible to know god.

Obviously, you haven't. Or at least you haven't comprehended what I wrote. I never said you don't need the Bible, or shouldn't read the Bible, or anything like that. Go back and re-read.

I've asked if your god's name Jesus, Yahweh, or something else?

God's name is "I Am," but He is known by many other names as well. Jesus is of God, but he was a man, and not God Himself. I worship the same God as Jesus did. I am a Christian, because I (try to) follow the teachings of Jesus.

[Cappster]

Do you believe without being "saved" that you are going to go to hell? Jesus did say the only way to get to Yahweh is through him. That is, of course, if you choose to believe that part of the bible as the bible itself is basically only used as a supplement to believing. I guess its a take it and you will be fine or a leave it you will be fine kind of thing. And in some instances it seems like you don't need Jesus at all, but have a relationship with "I am" which seems to be more of a relationship with ones self than anything.