The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

mastdark81 wrote:Colts downfall had more to do with the team organization/coaching then just quarterback. When Indy was successful and won their SuperBowl Peyton had Tarik Glenn, Jeff Saturday two all pro's...potential hall of famers.

I can't agree with that at all. They won 10 games in the previous season with the same exact squad. Subtract Peyton Manning, they win 2 games in 2011. I'm not discussing Superbowls, we're discussing the impact that a competent QB has in making the o-line look better than it is, or having a bad QB make it look worse than it is.

mastdark81 wrote:This is not a playoff line. We need an interior all-pro. Couldn't get an inch with this line if we really needed it in crunch time, shoot we can't even stop guys from blocking our field goals!!

1. We don't know how good/bad they are yet.

2. I find it even more difficult to accept your stance because it's not even accurate. http://www.thehogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38059
Read that thread. Most of the blocks were due to defensive linemen...

Our starting OL took A LOT of injuries last year. They played well towards the end, if you can be unbiased.

mastdark81 wrote:Lets make a starting 5 of just NFC East olineman and how many Redskins would you put in that starting 5?

Riiiiiight. Thats why we last in the division each year.

Different systems, different requirements. Your point is moot and almost as baseless as the one I disproved above.

How many NFCE teams run the Mike ZBS? None.

I bet if we released some of our OL bodies, the Texans would scoop 1 or 2 of them up. Heck, they just snatched up John Beck. ZBS to ZBS, we have quality players, let's be real.

Systems? Yeah different techniques when it come 2 run blocking only but not much different now that Alex Gibbs cutblockin has been outlawed. Our problem has been talent. Yeah we improved definitely but Im saying not enough. I understand the importantance of oline chemistry but part of a line working together is everyone doing their job at the sane time. Our guys lose too many one on one battles to say they play well together

System is overrated...it all comes down to winning individual battles in the oline/dline . For qb its diff and thats why they picked up Beck...qb and oline is waaaay diff soyour point on that is moot. You dont think everyteam in the NFL incorpirate zoneblockin? Every playbook has it...its just we run this forn of blocking more consistently. Cant think of 1 guy thats the best at his pisition juuuuust in our division.

Manning is a special case BC he calls the majority of his own plays...but even still you disregard the fact that they were ELITE only when had two all olineman and only were good without them even when Manning did lastplay...

Im talkin bout winnin superbowls not just being good enough to win 8-10 games. And m

mastdark81 wrote:Im talkin bout winnin superbowls not just being good enough to win 8-10 games. And m

8-10 games got the Giants to a superbowl, again, you're not making a valid point.

I ignored the rest because you think that our starting OL is on the FG team.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:

Right now it is a Gods awful unit, one of the worst on the league in giving up QB hits.

I don't agree - it's not great but it is getting better - the ZBS and Mike will help him a lot

Look you can disagree with the "Gods awful" part because that is an opinion, but you can't disagree with the fact that the OL was one of the worst in the league in giving up QB his. You can't disagree with that because it isn't my opinion out is fact! Black and white. The Skins OL allowed more QB hits than every team in the NFL accept the CHawks and Rams.

Also, I don't expect the teams hits our sacks to go down with RG3 inserted, because history shows us QBs that hold the ball long and running QBs take more sacks and hits than most QBs. QBs typically do their worst in avoiding hits and sacks in their rookie season. Those are facts too

So if you want to go with your gut, great! I'll go with history and facts!

no worries - all I was taking issue with is the implication that the O line right now is a "God's awful unit"

The O line is not great but many of us saw signs that this unit would be better and with some additions and the importance of ensuring the safety of RGIII - this O line, right now, is not as bad as you imply ... that's all

you have fun with your facts and stats - I'll take what I see on the field

and

we are going to continually see improvement and better play from the O line

cowboykillerzRED wrote:Is it unfathomed that the qb hits were in FACT inflated by the horrible qb play? Yes a rook MIGHT have similar issues but to blame the line for an immobile qb that can't pull the trigger is simply an injustice.
Hike... 54321....1......1......1.............1 vs hike 54321 gone is a big difference. The way they call and don't call holding = the d line will get there at some point, rex earned every hit the line didn't give him any.

Trent is a beast a boss a nigga truckin problem... Everyone is quick to forget Trent digging trenches vs d ware.... Getting mean dirty and shutting him down. So much in fact he had to switch sides.
It's up to the qb to protect the (not) blind side. So I ask Wtf are u smoking, thinking our o line is godawful? Our qb play is all that earned that title. Show me stats of rex or beck getting rid of the ball ON TIME and taking hits.. o wait that never happened.

I hear you, but I don't feel you. You are tripping on a splinter and blaming the log. Look up and see the qb was the problem not the line.

Bom!
ROASTED!

Lets not put all the blame on rex ether now. If the WR dont get open fast enough or not at all what can he do? Then how about the RB and TE, are they doing their jobs when they are asked to pass block?

Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:

cowboykillerzRED wrote:Is it unfathomed that the qb hits were in FACT inflated by the horrible qb play? Yes a rook MIGHT have similar issues but to blame the line for an immobile qb that can't pull the trigger is simply an injustice.
Hike... 54321....1......1......1.............1 vs hike 54321 gone is a big difference. The way they call and don't call holding = the d line will get there at some point, rex earned every hit the line didn't give him any.

Trent is a beast a boss a nigga truckin problem... Everyone is quick to forget Trent digging trenches vs d ware.... Getting mean dirty and shutting him down. So much in fact he had to switch sides.
It's up to the qb to protect the (not) blind side. So I ask Wtf are u smoking, thinking our o line is godawful? Our qb play is all that earned that title. Show me stats of rex or beck getting rid of the ball ON TIME and taking hits.. o wait that never happened.

I hear you, but I don't feel you. You are tripping on a splinter and blaming the log. Look up and see the qb was the problem not the line.

Bom!
ROASTED!

Lets not put all the blame on rex ether now. If the WR dont get open fast enough or not at all what can he do? Then how about the RB and TE, are they doing their jobs when they are asked to pass block?

Sooooo... who was at fault for the REST of Grossman's career? Hmmmmmm?

cowboykillerzRED wrote:Is it unfathomed that the qb hits were in FACT inflated by the horrible qb play? Yes a rook MIGHT have similar issues but to blame the line for an immobile qb that can't pull the trigger is simply an injustice.
Hike... 54321....1......1......1.............1 vs hike 54321 gone is a big difference. The way they call and don't call holding = the d line will get there at some point, rex earned every hit the line didn't give him any.

Trent is a beast a boss a nigga truckin problem... Everyone is quick to forget Trent digging trenches vs d ware.... Getting mean dirty and shutting him down. So much in fact he had to switch sides.
It's up to the qb to protect the (not) blind side. So I ask Wtf are u smoking, thinking our o line is godawful? Our qb play is all that earned that title. Show me stats of rex or beck getting rid of the ball ON TIME and taking hits.. o wait that never happened.

I hear you, but I don't feel you. You are tripping on a splinter and blaming the log. Look up and see the qb was the problem not the line.

Bom!
ROASTED!

I'm sorry, you can blame the poor OL play on Rex if you want, but the team was 3rd worst for QB hits in 2010 too. They were fifth worst in 2009. McNabb was the starter in 2010 and JC was the starter in 2009.

So you keep blaming all of the pass pro problems on the QB. Have fun in whatever reality you like to visit, I'll stay back here in the real world!

Bom!
ROASTED!

Countertrey wrote:

Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:

cowboykillerzRED wrote:Is it unfathomed that the qb hits were in FACT inflated by the horrible qb play? Yes a rook MIGHT have similar issues but to blame the line for an immobile qb that can't pull the trigger is simply an injustice.
Hike... 54321....1......1......1.............1 vs hike 54321 gone is a big difference. The way they call and don't call holding = the d line will get there at some point, rex earned every hit the line didn't give him any.

Trent is a beast a boss a nigga truckin problem... Everyone is quick to forget Trent digging trenches vs d ware.... Getting mean dirty and shutting him down. So much in fact he had to switch sides.
It's up to the qb to protect the (not) blind side. So I ask Wtf are u smoking, thinking our o line is godawful? Our qb play is all that earned that title. Show me stats of rex or beck getting rid of the ball ON TIME and taking hits.. o wait that never happened.

I hear you, but I don't feel you. You are tripping on a splinter and blaming the log. Look up and see the qb was the problem not the line.

Bom!
ROASTED!

Lets not put all the blame on rex ether now. If the WR dont get open fast enough or not at all what can he do? Then how about the RB and TE, are they doing their jobs when they are asked to pass block?

Sooooo... who was at fault for the REST of Grossman's career? Hmmmmmm?

What does that have to do with our o-line? And I didnt say he shouldnt take some of the blame, did I?

skinsfan#33 wrote:

cowboykillerzRED wrote:Is it unfathomed that the qb hits were in FACT inflated by the horrible qb play? Yes a rook MIGHT have similar issues but to blame the line for an immobile qb that can't pull the trigger is simply an injustice.
Hike... 54321....1......1......1.............1 vs hike 54321 gone is a big difference. The way they call and don't call holding = the d line will get there at some point, rex earned every hit the line didn't give him any.

Trent is a beast a boss a nigga truckin problem... Everyone is quick to forget Trent digging trenches vs d ware.... Getting mean dirty and shutting him down. So much in fact he had to switch sides.
It's up to the qb to protect the (not) blind side. So I ask Wtf are u smoking, thinking our o line is godawful? Our qb play is all that earned that title. Show me stats of rex or beck getting rid of the ball ON TIME and taking hits.. o wait that never happened.

I hear you, but I don't feel you. You are tripping on a splinter and blaming the log. Look up and see the qb was the problem not the line.

Bom!
ROASTED!

I'm sorry, you can blame the poor OL play on Rex if you want, but the team was 3rd worst for QB hits in 2010 too. They were fifth worst in 2009. McNabb was the starter in 2010 and JC was the starter in 2009.

So you keep blaming all of the pass pro problems on the QB. Have fun in whatever reality you like to visit, I'll stay back here in the real world!

Bom!
ROASTED!

Agree. The OL has been our most consistent problem for quite some time (of course an argument for QB can be made also -- obviously) -- and we consistently do nothing about it. I find it comical that people all wonder why our offense has not been efficient over the years. We have blamed it on some many things while blatently disregarding our horrendous OL. You can analyize our OL at the surface by merely looking at sacks and rushing yards -- but that doesn't adequately show how efficient an OL is. Until we seriously upgrade 3 of our 5 OL personnel (or somehow they drasticaly improve), we will continue to have our offensive issues.

A "fine" OL is not going to cut it with this team. Generally, the best offenses also have the best OLs. This team will be no different. I can't tell you how many teams have had great skills players without an OL and failed. The OL is the heart of an offense.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

cowboykillerzRED wrote:Is it unfathomed that the qb hits were in FACT inflated by the horrible qb play? Yes a rook MIGHT have similar issues but to blame the line for an immobile qb that can't pull the trigger is simply an injustice.
Hike... 54321....1......1......1.............1 vs hike 54321 gone is a big difference. The way they call and don't call holding = the d line will get there at some point, rex earned every hit the line didn't give him any.

Trent is a beast a boss a nigga truckin problem... Everyone is quick to forget Trent digging trenches vs d ware.... Getting mean dirty and shutting him down. So much in fact he had to switch sides.
It's up to the qb to protect the (not) blind side. So I ask Wtf are u smoking, thinking our o line is godawful? Our qb play is all that earned that title. Show me stats of rex or beck getting rid of the ball ON TIME and taking hits.. o wait that never happened.

I hear you, but I don't feel you. You are tripping on a splinter and blaming the log. Look up and see the qb was the problem not the line.

Bom!
ROASTED!

I'm sorry, you can blame the poor OL play on Rex if you want, but the team was 3rd worst for QB hits in 2010 too. They were fifth worst in 2009. McNabb was the starter in 2010 and JC was the starter in 2009.

So you keep blaming all of the pass pro problems on the QB. Have fun in whatever reality you like to visit, I'll stay back here in the real world!

Bom!
ROASTED!

Ok those qbs, although better then rex, were not good.. also the starting oline from Campbells day is not the same as this unit. Last year was different from mcnugget and I suspect this year will be fine tuned as well. So comparing different players to THIS line, and bad qb play to bad qb play is really irrelevant.
In this world our current oline is at least average and gaining depth.
Roasted.

markshark84 wrote:... Agree. The OL has been our most consistent problem for quite some time (of course an argument for QB can be made also -- obviously) -- and we consistently do nothing about it.

soo .... are you implying that while it looks like we've maybe done something about the QB position - this franchise has done 'nothing about' the O line?

I find it comical that people all wonder why our offense has not been efficient over the years. We have blamed it on some many things while blatently disregarding our horrendous OL. You can analyize our OL at the surface by merely looking at sacks and rushing yards -- but that doesn't adequately show how efficient an OL is. Until we seriously upgrade 3 of our 5 OL personnel (or somehow they drasticaly improve), we will continue to have our offensive issues.

A "fine" OL is not going to cut it with this team. Generally, the best offenses also have the best OLs. This team will be no different. I can't tell you how many teams have had great skills players without an OL and failed. The OL is the heart of an offense.

DUH!

let's get real here - this FO has made some progress - they had very little to work with and they know better than you how important the O line is

the FO is doing something about that

building an offensive line does not happen overnight - especiallly given what they had to begin with

this FO will continue to add offensive players to ensure this offense has all the pieces it needs to execute and be effective AND that we have depth

this FO knows a whole lot more than we do about how to build a consistently competitive franchise - they are doing that

I think we will be fine.

ROASTED

Mmmmmm. Roasted Bom.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

mastdark81 wrote:Im talkin bout winnin superbowls not just being good enough to win 8-10 games. And m

8-10 games got the Giants to a superbowl, again, you're not making a valid point.

I ignored the rest because you think that our starting OL is on the FG team.

Oh if you wish to be a wild card team and barely make the playoffs every year then we may have the right o-lineman. But I'm pretty sure it is a low percentage of wild card teams that win the SuperBowl.

If you find ANYWHERE where I said our starting OL was a duplicate of our fg blocking oline you WOULD be a smart man...but guess what?

You ignored it because you could not reply

Wait....

SkinsJock aka FO wrote: DUH!

let's get real here - this FO has made some progress - they had very little to work with and they know better than you how important the O line is

the FO is doing something about that

building an offensive line does not happen overnight - especiallly given what they had to begin with

this FO will continue to add offensive players to ensure this offense has all the pieces it needs to execute and be effective AND that we have depth

this FO knows a whole lot more than we do about how to build a consistently competitive franchise - they are doing that

Just noting, before I reply, that SJ mentioned FO FIVE TIMES in this one!

Anyway, it all works together. Even the D impacts our OL play. No one, IMO, can honestly say our OL is above average. It does not suck either. I saw too many good things. The tackles could be very good but we all know the problems and potential problems there. The interior is average and some new blood=competition has a chance to change that. I say we are currently average with a chance to be top third in the league this year if things break right, i.e., injuries, developing together, and the rest of the team doing their parts.

DarthMonk

mastdark81 wrote:..How many NFCE teams run the ZBS? None.

so what - do you think we'd be better off if we changed now

WHY?

Offensive line play is all about players doing their jobs together - let's say we could get the best 3 offensive linemen in the NFL - do you really think they'd be great immediately - it takes a lot of time to develop the teamwork needed and then you have to have depth that is compatible too

Im talkin bout winnin superbowls not just being good enough to win 8-10 games.

we are getting the O line in shape to be able to contend for the playoffs and eventually be a SB contender

it takes time

what have you been looking at - this O line is greatly improved and will continue to get better and have great depth

it's going to take RGIII a little time too - he's going to have a great line in front of him in a couple of years

thank God we have Mike Shanahan as the coach here & not one of the other NFC East HCs - not one of them could develop RGIII like Mike will

HTTR

damn - I forgot to mention the FO

DarthMonk wrote:.. it all works together. Even the D impacts our OL play. No one, IMO, can honestly say our OL is above average. It does not suck either. I saw too many good things. The tackles could be very good but we all know the problems and potential problems there. The interior is average and some new blood=competition has a chance to change that. I say we are currently average with a chance to be top third in the league this year if things break right, i.e., injuries, developing together, and the rest of the team doing their parts.

DarthMonk

If we end up in the top third of the NFL this season, it's a good thing, right?

I agree the O line is not great but by the time RGIII is getting hot, he's going to have a young, fast and very good O line in front of him

it takes time

Our oline is not as terrible as some would describe it. But, we are far from good enough. We are an average line with below average depth. Meaning, we're just okay when healthy and borderline awful when someone goes down with injury.

Trent Williams needs to dedicate himself to being great. A Chris Samuels level of professionalism would help this line a great deal.

Kory Lichtensteiger is coming off a serious injury. I am not optimistic that he'll be ready to play at a high level right off. I hope we give Leribeus a look to start there.

Will Montgomery - I think he's a decent center. Nothing spectacular, but not a total liability.

Chris Chester - decent RG. Durable. Maybe he'll take a leap in Year 2.

Jammal Brown - Good RT when healthy. Hopefully he's fully recovered from his hip. If not, who knows.

If we hadn't been hit with the cap penalty, I could have seen us making a harder push for Eric Winston out of Houston.

SkinsJock wrote:If we end up in the top third of the NFL this season, it's a good thing, right?

Hail yeah. I hope it happens, but a lot of things could derail us - weed, injury, the poster and his voodoo dolls, crappy play by other units on the team, etc.

The Hogster wrote:Our oline is not as terrible as some would describe it. But, we are far from good enough. We are an average line with below average depth. Meaning, we're just okay when healthy and borderline awful when someone goes down with injury.

Trent Williams needs to dedicate himself to being great. A Chris Samuels level of professionalism would help this line a great deal.

Kory Lichtensteiger is coming off a serious injury. I am not optimistic that he'll be ready to play at a high level right off. I hope we give Leribeus a look to start there.

Will Montgomery - I think he's a decent center. Nothing spectacular, but not a total liability.

Chris Chester - decent RG. Durable. Maybe he'll take a leap in Year 2.

Jammal Brown - Good RT when healthy. Hopefully he's fully recovered from his hip. If not, who knows.

If we hadn't been hit with the cap penalty, I could have seen us making a harder push for Eric Winston out of Houston.

I'm anxious to see Leribeus play too. The good news is some of our youngens got experience last year; so our Oline will have a little better debth.

mastdark81 wrote: If you find ANYWHERE where I said our starting OL was a duplicate of our fg blocking oline you WOULD be a smart man...but guess what?

You ignored it because you could not reply

Since you asked so nicely. Here you are mentioning the starting OL and the FG unit in the same breath.

mastdark81 wrote:
This is not a playoff line. We need an interior all-pro. Couldn't get an inch with this line if we really needed it in crunch time, shoot we can't even stop guys from blocking our field goals!!

DarthMonk wrote:

SkinsJock aka FO wrote: DUH!

let's get real here - this FO has made some progress - they had very little to work with and they know better than you how important the O line is

the FO is doing something about that

building an offensive line does not happen overnight - especiallly given what they had to begin with

this FO will continue to add offensive players to ensure this offense has all the pieces it needs to execute and be effective AND that we have depth

this FO knows a whole lot more than we do about how to build a consistently competitive franchise - they are doing that

Just noting, before I reply, that SJ mentioned FO FIVE TIMES in this one!

To be fair, I only count four.

DarthMonk wrote:

Hail yeah. I hope it happens, but a lot of things could derail us - weed, injury, the poster and his voodoo dolls, crappy play by other units on the team, etc.

I wouldn't worry about the Poster and her voodoo dolls, nothing she can do will derail the Skins this year. Her sorcery didn't bring RG3 to Cleveland as she boasted it would, did it....?!?

Her powers are weak now, like Bernie Kosar's, just don't look into her eyes or you'll turn to stoned....

Deadskins wrote:

DarthMonk wrote:

SkinsJock aka FO wrote: DUH!

let's get real here - this FO has made some progress - they had very little to work with and they know better than you how important the O line is

the FO is doing something about that

building an offensive line does not happen overnight - especiallly given what they had to begin with

this FO will continue to add offensive players to ensure this offense has all the pieces it needs to execute and be effective AND that we have depth

this FO knows a whole lot more than we do about how to build a consistently competitive franchise - they are doing that

Just noting, before I reply, that SJ mentioned FO FIVE TIMES in this one!

To be fair, I only count four.

I was waiting. The fifth is in SJ's sig.

DarthMonk

DarthMonk wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

DarthMonk wrote: Just noting, before I reply, that SJ mentioned FO FIVE TIMES in this one!

To be fair, I only count four.

I was waiting. The fifth is in SJ's sig.

DarthMonk

Ahhh, but not in your quote.