Luck, Griffin, and Race

[ATX_Skins]

Can we all just agree it doesn't really matter as long as our QB isn't Arab?

[1niksder]

Can we all just agree it doesn't really matter as long as our QB isn't Arab?

I liked Gibran Hamdan

[ATX_Skins]

Can we all just agree it doesn't really matter as long as our QB isn't Arab?

I liked Gibran Hamdan

lol, is he still playing in Europe?

[1niksder]

Can we all just agree it doesn't really matter as long as our QB isn't Arab?

I liked Gibran Hamdan

lol, is he still playing in Europe?

Last played with the Toronto Argonauts (2010 season)

[Red_One43]

The Harvard Implicit Association Study supports this. For fun take the test -

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/

This looks like it might be interesting. I'll get back to you.

DarthMonk

I thought that you might find it interesting. I first heard about it when it appeared on the cover of the Washington Post Magazine - I think in 2005.

I mentioned it because the conclusion supports what we aready know and that is people who are alike tend to gravitate to one another, but another part of the conclusion says that there is nothing wrong with that. The Study calls this gravitation - racial bias. It is mostly subconscious with most people not knowing that they are racially biased.

The study points out at what point racial bias crosses the line and becomes racism and/or discrimination. If one of the coaches chooses one quarterback over the other because he believes that a member from that group is not capable or because he refuses to choose a QB from that group it is no longer bias, but racism and that is wrong. In other words, the bias is not wrong, it is the action or non action that one takes that makes it discrimination or racism.

I hope others on the boards find it intersting as well.

[Deadskins]

I could have told you my results before having ever taken the time to go through the test.

[Red_One43]

People think Luck is the next in the Brady/Manning mold and RG3 is the next in the Vick mold

My question is why do people seem to automatically place RGIII in the Vick mold? I know that you didn't say that you did, so I ask in general because I also hear several people say that.

Other than RGIII and Vick are of the same race and both can run, as quarterbacks I see nothing else in common.

Look at Vick's and RGIII's college stats. They don't even compare in the area of passing especially the completion percentage.

Look at the rushing stats particularly at the avg per rush. You can see that RGIII took a lot of sacks since his avg per rush is low (in college sacks go against the individual's rushing stats). Running QBs do not take sacks like that. RGIII is a QB who can run and ran because plays were designed to run. RGIII is not a running QB.

I included Steve Young's stats. Look closely in passing RGIII and Young are similar and in rusing Vick and Young are similar.

So why is it that a lot of folks want to put RGIII into the Vick mold? Why not put RGIII in the Steve Young mold? By the time Steve Young won a Super Bowl he was no longer a running QB. He was a QB that could run which is what RGIII is, but only faster than Young.




RGIII

2010 - 304/454 67.0% 3501 YDS 22 TDS 8 INTS 13 Games
2011 - 267/369 72.4% 3998 YDS 36 TDS 6 INTS 12 Games

M Vick

1999 - 90/152 59.2% 1840 YDS 12 TDS 5 INTS 10 Games
2000 - 87/161 54.0% 1234 YDS 8 TDS 6INTS 6 Games

S. Young

1982 - 230/367 62.7% 3100 YDS 18TDS 18INTS 11 Games
1983 - 306/429 71.3% 3902 YDS 33TDS 6INTS 11 Games

Rushing

RGIII
2010 - 149 Carries 462YDS 3.1 Avg 8 TDS
2011 - 161 644 4.0 9

Young
1982 - 114 Carries 641 5.6 Avg 10 TDS
1983 102 623 6.1 8

Vick
1999 108 Carries 585 YD 5.4 AVG 8 TDS
2000 104 617 5.9 Avg 8

http://www.totalfootballstats.com/Playe ... id=1204841

http://www.totalfootballstats.com/PlayerQB.asp?id=3971

http://www.totalfootballstats.com/PlayerQB.asp?id=4312

[Red_One43]

Cosell deems RG3 a “superior arm talent and natural passer” to Luck

NFL Films’ Greg Cosell, perhaps the most prolific game-tape watcher of the sport today, indicated in a recent comparative essay that he doesn’t disagree with Hoge.

Cosell says he watched five tapes of each player. As Hoge also acknowledged, Cosell entered the film sessions with the impression that Luck “was the most NFL-ready quarterback to come out since Peyton Manning.”

By the end of his film work, however, Cosell concluded that Griffin is “a superior arm talent and natural passer” to Luck.

“Luck was not a special passer based on film study,” wrote Cosell. “He is not the same kind of arm talent as Matthew Stafford or Cam Newton. … Luck was an economical player who was at his best as a timing and rhythm, short to intermediate passer.”

Cosell did credit Luck for his masterful ability to call plays and make adjustments at the line of scrimmage, calling it an “essential attribute as [Luck] transitions to the NFL.”

Based strictly on game tape, however, RG3 was the more remarkable quarterback.

“What immediately jumped out was his arm strength,” Cosell wrote. “… Griffin, for a power thrower, was consistently accurate. The better term for accuracy is ball location. That’s what allows receivers to run after the catch. Griffin excelled in that area.”

Cosell went on to praise Griffin’s “composure in the pocket” as better than Luck’s, as well as RG3′s ability to throw from different arm angles while maintaining consistent accuracy. Cosell suggested that Griffin, despite playing in Baylor’s spread scheme, was less of a system quarterback than Luck, who was “managed and manipulated by his offense.”

So maybe the Colts do have a decision to make at No. 1 overall.

Or maybe the Redskins are getting the best quarterback in the draft.

My question is Irsay dead set on Luck as reports say he is? We should be finding out in the coming weeks with reports or nonreports about negotiations with Luck.

It will also be interesting to see if the fanbase starts to buzz about RGIII.

The Redskins sit in a non lose situation - either QB will be a stud in our offense.


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... r-to-luck/

[DarthMonk]

Cosell deems RG3 a “superior arm talent and natural passer” to Luck

NFL Films’ Greg Cosell, perhaps the most prolific game-tape watcher of the sport today, indicated in a recent comparative essay that he doesn’t disagree with Hoge.

Cosell says he watched five tapes of each player. As Hoge also acknowledged, Cosell entered the film sessions with the impression that Luck “was the most NFL-ready quarterback to come out since Peyton Manning.”

By the end of his film work, however, Cosell concluded that Griffin is “a superior arm talent and natural passer” to Luck.

“Luck was not a special passer based on film study,” wrote Cosell. “He is not the same kind of arm talent as Matthew Stafford or Cam Newton. … Luck was an economical player who was at his best as a timing and rhythm, short to intermediate passer.”

Cosell did credit Luck for his masterful ability to call plays and make adjustments at the line of scrimmage, calling it an “essential attribute as [Luck] transitions to the NFL.”

Based strictly on game tape, however, RG3 was the more remarkable quarterback.

“What immediately jumped out was his arm strength,” Cosell wrote. “… Griffin, for a power thrower, was consistently accurate. The better term for accuracy is ball location. That’s what allows receivers to run after the catch. Griffin excelled in that area.”

Cosell went on to praise Griffin’s “composure in the pocket” as better than Luck’s, as well as RG3′s ability to throw from different arm angles while maintaining consistent accuracy. Cosell suggested that Griffin, despite playing in Baylor’s spread scheme, was less of a system quarterback than Luck, who was “managed and manipulated by his offense.”

So maybe the Colts do have a decision to make at No. 1 overall.

Or maybe the Redskins are getting the best quarterback in the draft.

My question is Irsay dead set on Luck as reports say he is? We should be finding out in the coming weeks with reports or nonreports about negotiations with Luck.

It will also be interesting to see if the fanbase starts to buzz about RGIII.

The Redskins sit in a non lose situation - either QB will be a stud in our offense.


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... r-to-luck/

I still have some questions of yours (Red's) to answer but you all know where I stand. I think if it's a push then my points in this thread matter. I respect Cosell very highly. I need a different job LINK.

I want the guy with the natty dreads leading our huddle.

DarthMonk

[skinsfan#33]

Look at Running QBs do not take sacks like that.

As good as you are with stats I would think you would know the exact opposite is true. Usually, running qbs are sacked much more often than pocket passers.

Go look up the stats. Start with Vick. During his time in Atlanta he was one of the most sacked qbs in the nfl.

But as you pointed out RG3 is a pocket passer that can run.

[tribeofjudah]

I think skin color was a major factor when it came to the QB position, but times have changed. People may still think the same but when it comes to their football team they just want to win. Color be damned.

Then again just like with Cam last year the subject will come up.

I remember a reporter asking Doug Williams: "how long have you been a black quarterback...?"

What a crock of crap question that was....!!!

Remember Jimmy the Greek? Where is he now? tsk tsk tsk

[Irn-Bru]

I think skin color was a major factor when it came to the QB position, but times have changed. People may still think the same but when it comes to their football team they just want to win. Color be damned.

Then again just like with Cam last year the subject will come up.

I remember a reporter asking Doug Williams: "how long have you been a black quarterback...?"

What a crock of crap question that was....!!!

Check your memory . . .

http://www.snopes.com/sports/football/williams.asp

[tribeofjudah]

I think skin color was a major factor when it came to the QB position, but times have changed. People may still think the same but when it comes to their football team they just want to win. Color be damned.

Then again just like with Cam last year the subject will come up.

I remember a reporter asking Doug Williams: "how long have you been a black quarterback...?"

What a crock of crap question that was....!!!

Check your memory . . .

http://www.snopes.com/sports/football/williams.asp

I seen and heard it myself on ESPN........shows how credible THEY ARE..???

[DarthMonk]

Indy and we are about to choose "the face of the franchise."

I think one of the reasons Indy/Luck Washington/RGIII is best is due to race.

I find the second statement puzzling. "Is best due to race?" Best for who and how is it best? Later you say, "more appropriate." What are you saying here?

You asked a lot of questions. One at a time.

Don't overthink this one. Also, read my "anecdotal" post in this thread. It's this simple. DC is over 50% black. Indy is 65% white. It's simply a better demographic match for the populations. Additionally, DC is unique. It's the "poster child" city for disenfranchisement. I totally agree that in the future, wins and losses will be what most everyone cares about but going into this I am convinced the vast majority of blacks in this region would prefer RGIII for an obvious reason. Actually, many whites might as well for, in part, the same reason. I honestly feel there is significant "survivor guilt" in this country, particularly in this region which is geographically so close to the Mason Dixon line but historically more southern than northern.

I really don't want to argue much on this one. By argue, I don't even mean defend a strongly held view.

I fully intend on asking a few dozen people at work Monday which guy they would prefer and why. I'll let you know the results.

DarthMonk

[Red_One43]

Look at Running QBs do not take sacks like that.

As good as you are with stats I would think you would know the exact opposite is true. Usually, running qbs are sacked much more often than pocket passers.

Go look up the stats. Start with Vick. During his time in Atlanta he was one of the most sacked qbs in the nfl.

But as you pointed out RG3 is a pocket passer that can run.

Skinsfan#33, you and I have covered this ground before and you were right then and are right now. Poor choice of words on my part. Let me add some clarity:

My stats show that Vick and young have high avg per carries. RGIII rush avg. per carry are low. They are not indicative of a running QB. We have all seen highlights of RGIII running and know that he can run, but he is not a running QB because he is a pass first guy unless it is a designed run.

I think that RGIII is in the Aaron Rodgers mold, not the Aaron Rodgers of Cal, but the mature Aaron Rodgers who some consider the best at knowing when to pass and when to run.

[Deadskins]

We have all seen highlights of RGIII running and know that he can run, but he is not a running QB because he is a pass first guy unless it is a designed run.

Maybe in college, but at the NFL level the only designed QB runs are a QB draw or a naked bootleg, both designed to pick up two, maybe three yards, and have the QB avoid getting hit at the end of the play. Even "running" QBs in the NFL, only do it when scrambling. The rest do it for the same reason, they just do it after going through their progressions and nothing is still available.

[DarthMonk]

Look at Running QBs do not take sacks like that.

As good as you are with stats I would think you would know the exact opposite is true. Usually, running qbs are sacked much more often than pocket passers.

Go look up the stats. Start with Vick. During his time in Atlanta he was one of the most sacked qbs in the nfl.

But as you pointed out RG3 is a pocket passer that can run.

Skinsfan#33, you and I have covered this ground before and you were right then and are right now. Poor choice of words on my part. Let me add some clarity:

My stats show that Vick and young have high avg per carries. RGIII rush avg. per carry are low. They are not indicative of a running QB. We have all seen highlights of RGIII running and know that he can run, but he is not a running QB because he is a pass first guy unless it is a designed run.

I think that RGIII is in the Aaron Rodgers mold, not the Aaron Rodgers of Cal, but the mature Aaron Rodgers who some consider the best at knowing when to pass and when to run.

Agreed. I'm not gonna dig right now but somehwere on this site I posted these numbers (roughly):

College:

AR ran on 20% of dropbacks, Vick 40%, RGIII 30%.

RGIII is right between them.

As a pro Vick cut that number in half. We want RGIII to do the same. I want to say AR's pro number is 13%. This is from memory but I think they are close.

DarthMonk

[DarthMonk]

As a footnote to my last "race" post I'd say RGIII has a chance to bring people together in DC in way - that goes beyond wins and losses - that Luck could not.

DarthMonk

[Red_One43]

Indy and we are about to choose "the face of the franchise."

I think one of the reasons Indy/Luck Washington/RGIII is best is due to race.

I find the second statement puzzling. "Is best due to race?" Best for who and how is it best? Later you say, "more appropriate." What are you saying here?

You asked a lot of questions. One at a time.

Don't overthink this one. Also, read my "anecdotal" post in this thread. It's this simple. DC is over 50% black. Indy is 65% white. It's simply a better demographic match for the populations. Additionally, DC is unique. It's the "poster child" city for disenfranchisement. I totally agree that in the future, wins and losses will be what most everyone cares about but going into this I am convinced the vast majority of blacks in this region would prefer RGIII for an obvious reason. Actually, many whites might as well for, in part, the same reason. I honestly feel there is significant "survivor guilt" in this country, particularly in this region which is geographically so close to the Mason Dixon line but historically more southern than northern.

I really don't want to argue much on this one. By argue, I don't even mean defend a strongly held view.

I fully intend on asking a few dozen people at work Monday which guy they would prefer and why. I'll let you know the results.

DarthMonk

No need to argue. You answered the question honestly. I am no longer puzzled.

But I will add that it is not as simple as a demographic matching. It depends on how you define "better" and who is it "better" for. Demographic matching is what got us into trouble in the first place.

[Red_One43]

We have all seen highlights of RGIII running and know that he can run, but he is not a running QB because he is a pass first guy unless it is a designed run.

Maybe in college, but at the NFL level the only designed QB runs are a QB draw or a naked bootleg, both designed to pick up two, maybe three yards, and have the QB avoid getting hit at the end of the play. Even "running" QBs in the NFL, only do it when scrambling. The rest do it for the same reason, they just do it after going through their progressions and nothing is still available.

but at the NFL level the only designed QB runs are a QB draw or a naked bootleg, both designed to pick up two, maybe three yards, and have the QB avoid getting hit at the end of the play.

Ok now, I saw Tebow and Cam play last year.

[Red_One43]

As a footnote to my last "race" post I'd say RGIII has a chance to bring people together in DC in way - that goes beyond wins and losses - that Luck could not.

DarthMonk

Let me see if if I got this one straight. Jason and Donovan brought the people together in DC more than Joe and Mark?

[Red_One43]

Look at Running QBs do not take sacks like that.

As good as you are with stats I would think you would know the exact opposite is true. Usually, running qbs are sacked much more often than pocket passers.

Go look up the stats. Start with Vick. During his time in Atlanta he was one of the most sacked qbs in the nfl.

But as you pointed out RG3 is a pocket passer that can run.

Skinsfan#33, you and I have covered this ground before and you were right then and are right now. Poor choice of words on my part. Let me add some clarity:

My stats show that Vick and young have high avg per carries. RGIII rush avg. per carry are low. They are not indicative of a running QB. We have all seen highlights of RGIII running and know that he can run, but he is not a running QB because he is a pass first guy unless it is a designed run.

I think that RGIII is in the Aaron Rodgers mold, not the Aaron Rodgers of Cal, but the mature Aaron Rodgers who some consider the best at knowing when to pass and when to run.

Agreed. I'm not gonna dig right now but somehwere on this site I posted these numbers (roughly):

College:

AR ran on 20% of dropbacks, Vick 40%, RGIII 30%.

RGIII is right between them.

As a pro Vick cut that number in half. We want RGIII to do the same. I want to say AR's pro number is 13%. This is from memory but I think they are close.

DarthMonk

I do remember your post earlier. I fully expect RGIII to reduce the number of runs by more than half - because his coaches are the Shannies.

[Irn-Bru]

I think skin color was a major factor when it came to the QB position, but times have changed. People may still think the same but when it comes to their football team they just want to win. Color be damned.

Then again just like with Cam last year the subject will come up.

I remember a reporter asking Doug Williams: "how long have you been a black quarterback...?"

What a crock of crap question that was....!!!

Check your memory . . .

http://www.snopes.com/sports/football/williams.asp

I seen and heard it myself on ESPN........shows how credible THEY ARE..???

You are saying you heard the reporter ask that question? Or you heard Doug Williams repeat it? Because what apparently happened is that Williams misheard the question and repeated the wrong one back — essentially tainting that reporter's career in the process, by the way.

This is a story that has been debunked repeatedly over the years. We even had a thread on THN about it back in the day.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/200 ... tion-butch

http://www.realredskins.com/rich-tandle ... asked.html

[SkinsJock]

I would love to get Robert Griffin III but I can honestly say that is purely because IMHO, he's going to be the better QB

now ....

as some of you know, I know very little about scouting players and I am most likely VERY wrong about that

I will be VERY happy with either Luck or Griffin - Luck is probably going to be less of a gamble to begin with ... but ....

I have never considered the skin color - it's all about who will be best for the Redskins

[Countertrey]

The deal is, Griffin is Big, Very fast, Very skilled as a passer, super smart, extremely disciplined, and hard working. Luck is Bigger, a bit less fast, a bit more skilled as a passer, super smart, extremely disciplined, and hard working. Both will fit incredibly well into Shanahan's offense. Both would be loved in DC. Both would renew the dream, of a dominant team at FedEx.

Come on, Colts... make this final. Let's do this. Who ever is our quarterback, to quote Doug Williams, quoting Joe Jacoby... "red, yellow, brown or green... you're our quarterback."