The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

HarleyHog wrote:Two positives how far apart? Canabinoids can take upwards of 6 weeks to clear from the system

Actually much longer, depending on your fat index and regularity of use before quitting.

Countertrey wrote:People are arguing over nuance... shades of gray...

Whatever...

Honestly, I totally understand what you are saying - forget about the nuance.

I'll just say again it is an important difference. If the club really believes that either Williams or Davis are actual DRUG ADDICTS, then there is no way that you put a franchise tag on one of them or invest more money in them. That is just insane! You've said these guys are physically or mentally incapable of not smoking weed. If that is true, how could you expect them to not be suspended again?

If the guys are just knuckleheads that you feel a) have learned their lessons and b) understand their careers are basically over if they mess up again, then its a completely different story.

I don't personally know which of the above is true. But Shanahan seems to be saying its the latter.

When the NFL determines that the player has failed a drug test MORE than once, it is NOT an indication that the player ONLY tried the substance one time

the reason players are supended is VERY serious and has huge implications for the teams

The NFL does NOT suspend 'their' players for failing a single drug test


NFL players know what they are doing to the team AND themselves when they choose to do drugs - THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT :roll:

IF Shanahan did not badly need these 2 players they would be gone

these 2 players are NOT addicts per se but they must be somewhat addicted ....

FACT is they KNEW the ramifications of doing drugs

FACT is they KNEW that they WOULD GET CAUGHT if they tried drugs AGAIN
EVEN though, I'm sure they hoped they would not

when you know and still do it - it's some form of addiction, for sure

SkinsJock wrote:When the NFL determines that the player has failed a drug test MORE than once, it is NOT an indication that the player ONLY tried the substance one time

Obviously, but what HarleyHog was saying is that even if the tests were administered 2 months apart, the second positive could still be from having it in your system from the same use that caused your first test to be positive.

Like posted above and by me earlier- it isn't clear if it was multiple tests after the same usage.
Didn't see anything about this last year did you?
No.
This was after the lockout and it was probably some killa chronic w high THC levels that even after the first test the second would show little to know change. - if it was two weeks later.
I know YOU know but speculation is just that.
Yes they got caught (the criminals!) now let's see how they bounce back.
I'm jus glad that weren't out killing dogs for giggles- thatd be a serious mental issue that I couldn't find hope for

At least they didn't get busted for steriods or other performance enhancers, which in my opinion the NFL has a bigger problem with and they should be more concerned about.

PAPDOG67 wrote:At least they didn't get busted for steriods or other performance enhancers, which in my opinion the NFL has a bigger problem with and they should be more concerned about.

Where does it stop though? We could say, at least they didn't get caught using heroin. At least it wasn't crack. At least they weren't selling it. At least they weren't dog fighting.

I don't think anyone faults them for smoking weed. People fault them for continuing to smoke weed despite getting caught, not once, not twice, but three times.

Trust me, weed is probably less of a problem than alcohol or cigarettes for an athlete. But, when someone is repeatedly failing a test for WEED, then that shows a lack of intelligence and respect for themselves and the team. I don't care if you call them an addict, retarded or both. Again, I forgive them, guys can turn it around (see Ricky Williams).

But, for right now, let's stop minimizing it for Trent Williams especially. He's shown that he's lazy and has potential to go the "I do what I want and only play hard when I want" route.

Being a selfish, dumb, and lazy NFL player is like being President. They work once every four years to try to keep their job.

HarleyHog wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

SouthLondonRedskin wrote:We need him and he deserves another chance.

If he fouls up again then he's beyond stupid. We need to use our picks and trades on other key positions, TE isn't one of those positions with Davis and ey in support, and you can't say that about any other position other than maybe Linebacker and possibly RB.

You do realize that the suspension tells us that this is not the first time that he tested positive, right? Clearly, Fred and Trent are demonstrating that they are not the sharpest blades in the box. They are now working on their 3rd chance....

Two positives how far apart? Canabinoids can take upwards of 6 weeks to clear from the system, so a single " event" can create multiple positive tests over time. As the NFL uses the more expensive, hence more accurate and sensitive testing methods involving mass spectometry, I think it more likely that both Davis and Williams fell prey to the delusion that they could party 'just this one time' with their buddies during the lockout and clear their systems. If it had been simple reagent testing they probably could have passed. I doubt that either is an addict, and I sincerely hope both remain Skins for as long as their talents last

Each player has failed at least three drug tests since entering the league, according to a league source, including two since the lockout ended in July.

Davis, a fourth-year tight end, and Williams, a second-year offensive tackle, were part of a group of 11 players who failed drug tests shortly after reporting for training camp in July.

The league and the union have been negotiating the fate of that group since August, deciding whether the NFL would grant those players a “grace period,” because of the lockout.

While nine of the 11 players will face no punishment for their failed tests, Davis and Williams will be suspended because they subsequently failed another drug test after the regular season began in September, according to the person with knowledge of the situation.

Under terms of the league’s substance abuse program, a player with three failed tests for recreational drugs is subject to a year-long suspension from the NFL. Because one of the offenses came during the “grace period,” the union negotiated the suspension down to four games, the typical punishment for a second offense.

They both already had one strike and knew the next one would be 4 games. Eleven players got popped during the grace period and only two didn't get the message.

The thought B&G stood for Bud and Green

The Hogster wrote:Being a selfish, dumb, and lazy NFL player is like being President. They work once every four years to try to keep their job.

I know that's right for the ones who've had a second term.

HarleyHog wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

SouthLondonRedskin wrote:We need him and he deserves another chance.

If he fouls up again then he's beyond stupid. We need to use our picks and trades on other key positions, TE isn't one of those positions with Davis and ey in support, and you can't say that about any other position other than maybe Linebacker and possibly RB.

You do realize that the suspension tells us that this is not the first time that he tested positive, right? Clearly, Fred and Trent are demonstrating that they are not the sharpest blades in the box. They are now working on their 3rd chance....

Two positives how far apart? Canabinoids can take upwards of 6 weeks to clear from the system, so a single " event" can create multiple positive tests over time. As the NFL uses the more expensive, hence more accurate and sensitive testing methods involving mass spectometry, I think it more likely that both Davis and Williams fell prey to the delusion that they could party 'just this one time' with their buddies during the lockout and clear their systems. If it had been simple reagent testing they probably could have passed. I doubt that either is an addict, and I sincerely hope both remain Skins for as long as their talents last

I used to manage a drug testing protocol as part of my job.

The testing accounts for that... but, you can believe whatever you want... Quantitative measures, including Mass spectrometry can... and do... allow you to account for half life, and metabolic release from lipid storage. Since you are so into studying the internet, I'm also sure that you are aware that highly muscular men with low BMI's (such as, say, Fred Davis) clear THC and it's metabolites much more quickly than those with relatively high BMI's (such as, say, Trent Williams). It is not at all difficult to calculate a range that would indicate whether they used or not since the first test.

Guess what???? THEY BLEW IT, whether the tests were 12 weeks or 7 days apart. They toked... and they screwed up, because they were freaking too immature to put the freaking bud away.

cowboykillerzRED wrote:Like posted above and by me earlier- it isn't clear if it was multiple tests after the same usage.
Didn't see anything about this last year did you?
No.

You are aware that the NFL maintains a policy of confidentiality unless there is a punishment handed out... right? In otherwords... you never hear about the first offense.

This was after the lockout and it was probably some killa chronic w high THC levels that even after the first test the second would show little to know change. - if it was two weeks later.

I see you are an expert in blood substance assays... This is crap. Metabolism and clearance begins immediately. The decline in circulating canabinoids follows a normal and predictable half-life profile. PERIOD. Adjustments for BMI are not difficult. PERIOD.

I know YOU know but speculation is just that.
Yes they got caught (the criminals!) now let's see how they bounce back.
I'm jus glad that weren't out killing dogs for giggles- thatd be a serious mental issue that I couldn't find hope for

It doesn't matter whether YOU agree with the law, or the NFL policy, or not. You can use all the false assumptions about "killa chronic" lasting forever that you want. The fact is, the NFL busted them at least twice. The first time? maybe the omnipotence of youth... the second time? This was pure, selfish, stupidity on their parts. Hopefully, they have learned from this... If not, we'll be shopping for a LT and TE in the fall...

I know it doesn't really matter but I am curious. How do they test? Is it PH, hair, blood or what?

Kilmer72 wrote:I know it doesn't really matter but I am curious. How do they test? Is it PH, hair, blood or what?

-
Most are urine... this uses a dipstick that changes color it there are any metabolites of THC present. It does not measure how much is present. It detects only the metabolites (by-products) of THC, up to 4 weeks after use. This gives only "positive" or "negative". Because urine can concentrate canabinoids, there is no point in attempting to test "levels". Someone who is drinking a lot of water may have lower levels due to dilution.

Blood tests measure levels of THC and it's metabolites... how much is present. Again, you can detect up to 4 weeks after last use.

Hair analysis can detect THC and metabolites for months after use.

Saliva can detect THC, and only detects within hours of use.

Weed testing is iffy. It stays in you fat cells longer then your blood stream. Thc is what gets you high the metabolites are cancer fighting agents. Herb with high metabolites is *sh$t* for people like me.
Comes to testing urine tests are cheap and quick. Blood and hair tests are super expensive and time consuming.
My wife works in a dispensary in Colorado she knows all that funny stuff.

1niksder wrote: ... They both already had one strike and knew the next one would be 4 games.
Eleven players got popped during the grace period and only two didn't get the message.

The thought B&G stood for Bud and Green

c'mon people - STOP trying to make excuses for these 2 absolutely selfish, stupid idiots

we understand they are VERY important to our team going forward - THEY KNOW THAT TOO

they chose to do drugs and even when they were caught they did it again

STOP WITH THE EXCUSES - they're most likely staying here

These 2 are now under the microscope and need to do more to show they deserve another chance

If either one NEVER gets caught again but at the same time does not give a huge effort to make up for what he did - CUT HIM

I hope Mike watches these 2 VERY carefully - we don't need stupid players - make an example of them

Countertrey wrote:

Kilmer72 wrote:I know it doesn't really matter but I am curious. How do they test? Is it PH, hair, blood or what?

-
Most are urine... this uses a dipstick that changes color it there are any metabolites of THC present. It does not measure how much is present. It detects only the metabolites (by-products) of THC, up to 4 weeks after use. This gives only "positive" or "negative". Because urine can concentrate canabinoids, there is no point in attempting to test "levels". Someone who is drinking a lot of water may have lower levels due to dilution.

Blood tests measure levels of THC and it's metabolites... how much is present. Again, you can detect up to 4 weeks after last use.

Hair analysis can detect THC and metabolites for months after use.

Saliva can detect THC, and only detects within hours of use.

Both urine and blood tests can find THC after 8 weeks. Urine is pretty simple to fake out (it's all about PPM)... blood, not so much.

SkinsJock wrote:

1niksder wrote: ... They both already had one strike and knew the next one would be 4 games.
Eleven players got popped during the grace period and only two didn't get the message.

The thought B&G stood for Bud and Green

c'mon people - STOP trying to make excuses for these 2 absolutely selfish, stupid idiots

we understand they are VERY important to our team going forward - THEY KNOW THAT TOO

they chose to do drugs and even when they were caught they did it again

Who's trying to make excuses for them?

I haven't.... if I did, will you kindly point it out to me?
While you're at it, how about showing me where I've said "they are very important to our team". You don't even have to limit your search to just this thread. I've NEVER made excuses for them, I haven't even noted a opinon of their actions one way other the other. Although most can tell where I stand as far as the smartness of their activities.

SJ wrote:STOP WITH THE EXCUSES - they're most likely staying here

I'm still don't see where I've made any excuse for anybody, but you did quote my post... that only said they had failed more than 2 test (as two positives was being discussed prior to my post), eleven players got a break (thanks to the NFLPA) because their testing came shortly after the break, and after re-testing the NFLPA had to step up again to prevent just 2 of eleven players from even stiff repercussions than the 4 weeks they were out (they both should already be out for a year). I don't see a excuse for them anywhere in the post you quoted.

Did I miss something?

SJ wrote:These 2 are now under the microscope and need to do more to show they deserve another chance

If either one NEVER gets caught again but at the same time does not give a huge effort to make up for what he did - CUT HIM

I hope Mike watches these 2 VERY carefully - we don't need stupid players - make an example of them

I'm going to need some help on this one too...

Wouldn't they have been under a microscope after their first positive? Granted the team doesn't know the situation until after the second failed test but both players knew a second positive would cost them four games. From what I hear the NFL has a bigger microscope than the Washington Redskins.

Regardless of the microscope being over them, shouldn't they be giving their maximum effort anyway?

CUT WHO?

Davis is a URFA in March and one of the top young TEs that will hit the market. Getting suspended wasn't the best thing for him to do in his "contract year". He might get some offers on the open market but not like what he would have gotten without the positive from the post lockout testing. All eleven players where facing losing 4 game checks after that test, so they're all in "the program" and every GM in the league knows it. Although the other nine technically only have one positive (after the NFLPA's deal with the NFL) and shouldn't be known about league-wide it is. Tagging Davis (depending on the type of fanchise tag) will lock him in for atleast one year. That gives the team time to see where his head is at... then again a low end take would allow him to find his own deal with another team and picks for the Redskins. If they don't tag him Davis has pretty much put himself in a market the Redskins can match without thinking about it. Rumors of a posible tag may have already taken Davis off some teams "wish list" fearing the Skins are willing to pay him top 5 money.

Williams on the other hand was not only a top 5 draft pick but he was Mike Shanahan's first draft pick as "The" Man in DC. The McNabb (Mike first big trade as "The" Man in DC) fiasco pretty much gives "Silverback" his whole rookie contract (ends the same year as Mike's if Trent hits certain performance levels) to prove his worth.

sorry that you thought this was directed at you 1niksder - I was referring to others that don't seem to think that this that big a deal

I agree totally with your posts on this - I should have been clearer about that



IMO - These 2 players are staying here - Trent, because he's under contract and the other because it's in his best interest, IMO

I agree that all players should be trying their hardest to keep their spots

these 2 need to hopefully understand how badly they've let everyone down and now make a big effort to help this team
I DOUBT that's happening - because they've both shown that they're idiots

riggofan wrote:I love Fred Davis, and I'm glad we're working to keep him a Redskin. The guy is one of the few legitimate studs we have on this team.

Testing for marijuana use in pro football players is a freaking joke. I highly doubt that Fred is an "addict", and I don't think he's a bad guy for it. Unfortunately though, these are the rules. Let's hope he learned from what happened this season and doesn't put his career at risk again.

Getting caught indicates that Davis is a fool. He was caught once and warned. He knew there would be tests.

It's a Joe McClain error. In about 1961, the expansion Senators had a starting pitcher during the first half of the season, a guy who had been stuck in the minors before expansion. White Sox, I think.

Suddenly McClain is the best pitcher in the American League, with a sharp breaking pitch nobody knew he could throw.

At the All-star game, Ralph Houk, manager of the Yankees and the AL stars, tells McClain to go warm up. McClain says, "Just a minute, boss...I've got to dunk my hand". And he puts his entire pitching hand into a bucket of something like pine-tar. Pitches his inning and sits.

Next time the Nats play the Yankees, Houk comes out of the dugout to ask the umpires to check McClain. Sure enough, his hand is sticky. Umpires make him wash it off, and McClain pitches the second half of the season like the career minor leaguer he had always been.

Being dumb enough to show Ralph Houk that you are loading your pitching hand...or dumb enough to smoke after you've been caught and know you will be tested again.

Maybe Davis and Williams are not smart enough top play in the NFL?

welch wrote:

riggofan wrote:I love Fred Davis, and I'm glad we're working to keep him a Redskin. The guy is one of the few legitimate studs we have on this team.
Testing for marijuana use in pro football players is a freaking joke. I highly doubt that Fred is an "addict", and I don't think he's a bad guy for it. Unfortunately though, these are the rules. Let's hope he learned from what happened this season and doesn't put his career at risk again.

Getting caught indicates that Davis is a fool. He was caught once and warned. He knew there would be tests.

Being dumb enough to ..................... smoke after you've been caught and know you will be tested again.

Maybe Davis and Williams are not smart enough top play in the NFL?

my feelings also welch - these guys have really let everyone down and while it's nice to think they learned a lesson from this ...

they've clearly showed they don't have a clue and that they will make stupid choices

it's true that you can be dumb and play in the NFL but there's not a chance that you're going to play to your full potential - NO WAY


why do you think there's such a premium placed by management and coaches on 'character guys'

I like a drink (Irish), but if I had to leave it alone for the sake of my teammates and, more importantly, the chance to make a few million that will take care of me and my family for life, then I know I could go back to it after retirement if I wanted to and enjoy it then knowing I hadn't truly messed things up.

It could be that these guys are surrounded by 'friends' from home who perhaps subconciously want them to fail so they sink back down to their level. A form of jealousy.

If that is the case they need to stay away from those bad influences before its too late.

I want to give them another chance, but deep down I too think that one of them is going to feck it up within the next two seasons and be banned.

Just a feeling....

Accountability is really big with this FO and with Mike especially


these 2 guys have a big hurdle to clear - they let a lot of people down and I doubt they're here for long
they can change the odds but I doubt they have the character

this team will be better off for it .... either way