The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

This draft year surely is a tough one to make a choice. No team wants to be in the top 6, because it means your team is near or at the bottom of the league. That also means hopefully a limited opportunity to get an Andrew Luck. But, I also agree that there has to be other QB's out there that with a good supporting cast can perform well enough to win like the top teams in the league. T.J. Yates was able to win yesterday, but Dalton was not. Two rookie QB's, two different teams.

Drew Brees had all day to throw last night. If we had that kind of offensive line Grossman would be the starter.

RG3 needs to be developed to complete at this level. I don't think it's smart at all to move up to get him because if you're looking for a starter this year out of a rookie, you can get someone later in the draft that can give you similar production. Of course this is my opinion and once I'm able to do a bit more research my mind could be changed but as of now, this is my gut feeling.

Same was said about Cam.. Whatd he do? Just break records all year...
RGiii is scouted about the same or above cam with similar speed but a PASS first qb. I suppose we can't compare until the combine and then we can more accurately. I'd love a Stafford, Newton, heck even Bradford or Yates.

frankcal20 wrote:RG3 needs to be developed to complete at this level. I don't think it's smart at all to move up to get him because if you're looking for a starter this year out of a rookie, you can get someone later in the draft that can give you similar production. Of course this is my opinion and once I'm able to do a bit more research my mind could be changed but as of now, this is my gut feeling.

That's what they said about Cam... never had to call plays at AU because they ran a number system was going to prevent him from making a impact in the NFL for a few years. He came from a spread offense and was a run first QB with no accuracy, so he would have to sit for a year jut to understand pro style offenses.

Back in 2007, the Redskins were on the verge of elimination, having a 3 game losing streak and on their way to a forth straight loss, due in no small measure to the ineffectual play of a one Jason Campbell. (this point was strenuously argued, with the majority claiming that the problem in offensive production was not JC's fault). Then he's injured, and in comes Todd Collins to immediately turned the offense from pathetic to pretty damned good, instantly, winning the next 4 games and qualifying the Redskins for the playoffs.

While no one is going to mistake Todd Collins for a franchise QB, he was the hottest QB in the league going into the playoffs that year. Had he been in his mid-twenties and a backup with just a few games of experience, with no decade long record of mediocrity as a resume, someone would have been aching to sign him to a big FA deal based on his performance, and that would have been a HUGE mistake .... since then, Collins limited action has shown why he was never a legitimate starter.

What's the point? The point is, a number of QBs in the league have the physical tools to be successful if they have an exceptional mental grasp of a specific and well designed offensive system that caters to their strengths and doesn't ask them to do too much. In the case of Collins, the Saunders system relied a lot on timing patterns and knowing where the play needed to go based on defensive coverages which Collins had an exceptional grasp, and where JC miserably failed to figure out. So you can win with a QB that's middle of the road in talent, under certain circumstances. However, those guys ultimately fail the moment defenses realize how to combat the system. Defeat the system and you defeat the "System QB". Matt Cassel comes to mind as another example of this .... and it's quite likely that Matt Flynn may fit this definition too. Take them out of their system, and they prove to be no better than the rest of the journeymen back ups out there, and you will not have long term success with them.

The real, true franchise QBs not only understand their system, but have the exceptional talent to adapt on the fly to defeat defenses as they adapt to what the offense is trying to do ... the guys like Brady and Brees and P Manning .... with Brees being one of the best examples of a guy who knows how to set up defenses .... misdirect them intentionally by focusing in the opposite direction, keeping safeties and LB out of position, and not cluing them. These types are rare, and though once in a while, they may be overlooked ... generally they aren't, which is why it really is an exception to find one outside the top 10 in the draft.

So, for those who think that we should go after Flynn, and save our draft picks for further building .... you don't understand the reality of today's NFL, or the ill for which the Reskins currently suffer.

We've had 4 successful high draft picks over the last 4 years, and guess what? This year we were 1 game worse than last year, and only 1 game better than the miserable year of 2009 with bingo callers and swinging gates, and the like. So what makes any of you think that using 2-3 more #1 picks on positions other than a top tier QB will provide so much more success than has been provided by Landry, Orakpo, Williams and Kerrigan?

I'm telling you ... not suggesting .... that those 4 picks were excellent picks (maybe Williams is a stretch) .... and we aren't measurably better than we were 4 years ago ... win-loss wise. So where's your evidence that saving 2 #1 picks, and passing on one of the two good QB prospects this year is the "smart" thing to do?

To me, the Redskin offense is stuck in "park" and anyone who thinks that being frugal with draft picks and passing on the team's greatest need right now is a good plan, is .... no offense ...stuck on stupid.

Do you guys see Shanahan changing his offense to fit a players skill set like RG3? I'd be shocked as hell if he did but I really don't think he will. I also think that he thinks he can find a guy to fit his system. Call me crazy but I also think that he likes this kid Johnathan Crompton who's currently on our team.

The Hogster wrote:

Kruncher wrote:FRNCHISE QBs

Peyton Manning
Eli Manning
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Ben Roethlisberger

Wut do all thes QBs have in common? They have hardware some multiple pieces. QB is the most important position on the team hands down.

What do they have in common? The ones who have multiple Superbowls play on good teams. Proof: When Brady got hurt, his team went 11-5 with Matt Cassell. When Rothlisberger was suspended, the Steelers went 3-1 without him.

And, although Rodgers doesn't have multiple Rings, when he sat out this year, his backup came in and threw for 480 yards and 6 TDS.

That should tell you guys that building a good team is key to being a consistent winner. Not just mortgaging 3 or 4 drafts for one guy. People used to think the Colts were a good team until Manning went out. What do you guys want to be? A franchise like the Steelers or Patriots that is always winning, or a team like the Colts who basically needs arguably the greatest QB of all time just to win a game??


Answer is easy for me.

Shanny is clearly following the Steeler and Pats Models. He is trying to copy the Steeler D and he is friends with Belicheck. Spent time with him during his year off. The point you have made is a strong point. Shanny won't sell the house to get Luck or RGIII. He told Gruden when the Bucs gave up multiple draft picks for him. That he would never put that much pressure on an individual to succeed. With at being said, yes, it would be a stretch for ShanAllen to be able to pull off a trade up for RGIII. But, we are in the dreaming phase of this with no Senior Bowl, FA, Combine and Prodays yet, right?

frankcal20 wrote:Do you guys see Shanahan changing his offense to fit a players skill set like RG3? I'd be shocked as hell if he did but I really don't think he will. I also think that he thinks he can find a guy to fit his system. Call me crazy but I also think that he likes this kid Johnathan Crompton who's currently on our team.

Andy Dalton was a spread QB. Why do you see in RGIII that makes you think that he can't make the transition to Shanny's O with it deep ball and mobility emhasis? This ain't Cam Newton, we are talking about who has needed the OC to tailor the O to him. You can be that even though, RGIII is already ahead of Cam, he will go through the QB camps to get ready for the pro level.

SprintRightOption wrote:This draft year surely is a tough one to make a choice. No team wants to be in the top 6, because it means your team is near or at the bottom of the league. That also means hopefully a limited opportunity to get an Andrew Luck. But, I also agree that there has to be other QB's out there that with a good supporting cast can perform well enough to win like the top teams in the league. T.J. Yates was able to win yesterday, but Dalton was not. Two rookie QB's, two different teams.

Drew Brees had all day to throw last night. If we had that kind of offensive line Grossman would be the starter.

Great point about the Yates and Dalton comparison. Supposedly the Shanny offense can make a mediocre QB look like a stud. There were times Grossman looked like a stud. Yate's success may make the Shanny's further believe that they do not have to draft a stud. Just get someone with all the tools and they will do the rest.

No, Grossman would not be the start with the Saints O line. Grossman is is own enemy. He makes poor decsisions even when he has plenty of time. He is a turnover machcine even when he has time.

frankcal20 wrote:RG3 needs to be developed to complete at this level. I don't think it's smart at all to move up to get him because if you're looking for a starter this year out of a rookie, you can get someone later in the draft that can give you similar production. Of course this is my opinion and once I'm able to do a bit more research my mind could be changed but as of now, this is my gut feeling.

Fair enough. Let the research begin. Let's bring on the Senior Bowl! I hope that all the top QBs play.

Red_One43 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:Do you guys see Shanahan changing his offense to fit a players skill set like RG3? I'd be shocked as hell if he did but I really don't think he will. I also think that he thinks he can find a guy to fit his system. Call me crazy but I also think that he likes this kid Johnathan Crompton who's currently on our team.

Andy Dalton was a spread QB. Why do you see in RGIII that makes you think that he can't make the transition to Shanny's O with it deep ball and mobility emhasis? This ain't Cam Newton, we are talking about who has needed the OC to tailor the O to him. You can be that even though, RGIII is already ahead of Cam, he will go through the QB camps to get ready for the pro level.

Let me start out by saying that RG3 was a really good college QB. He had a lot of weapons. Just look at his RB who knifed up the opposing D in their bowl game. Also, he has some pretty damn good WRs also. My gut says that they go in a different direction. I really do think that he's looking for a QB in the 6'2 - 6'5 range. 220lbs who is more of a pocket passer. There are guys in the draft who fit this mold and to top it all off, he's looking for a gun slinger. He's almost always had a guy like that in Elway, Plummer, Cutler. I'm not sure who fits that mold in this years draft or FA but I'm sure that Flynn sure as hell peaked their interest based on the two performances he's had and his ability to get the ball down the field.

RayNAustin wrote:Back in 2007, the Redskins were on the verge of elimination, having a 3 game losing streak and on their way to a forth straight loss, due in no small measure to the ineffectual play of a one Jason Campbell. (this point was strenuously argued, with the majority claiming that the problem in offensive production was not JC's fault). Then he's injured, and in comes Todd Collins to immediately turned the offense from pathetic to pretty damned good, instantly, winning the next 4 games and qualifying the Redskins for the playoffs.

While no one is going to mistake Todd Collins for a franchise QB, he was the hottest QB in the league going into the playoffs that year. Had he been in his mid-twenties and a backup with just a few games of experience, with no decade long record of mediocrity as a resume, someone would have been aching to sign him to a big FA deal based on his performance, and that would have been a HUGE mistake .... since then, Collins limited action has shown why he was never a legitimate starter.

What's the point? The point is, a number of QBs in the league have the physical tools to be successful if they have an exceptional mental grasp of a specific and well designed offensive system that caters to their strengths and doesn't ask them to do too much. In the case of Collins, the Saunders system relied a lot on timing patterns and knowing where the play needed to go based on defensive coverages which Collins had an exceptional grasp, and where JC miserably failed to figure out. So you can win with a QB that's middle of the road in talent, under certain circumstances. However, those guys ultimately fail the moment defenses realize how to combat the system. Defeat the system and you defeat the "System QB". Matt Cassel comes to mind as another example of this .... and it's quite likely that Matt Flynn may fit this definition too. Take them out of their system, and they prove to be no better than the rest of the journeymen back ups out there, and you will not have long term success with them.

The real, true franchise QBs not only understand their system, but have the exceptional talent to adapt on the fly to defeat defenses as they adapt to what the offense is trying to do ... the guys like Brady and Brees and P Manning .... with Brees being one of the best examples of a guy who knows how to set up defenses .... misdirect them intentionally by focusing in the opposite direction, keeping safeties and LB out of position, and not cluing them. These types are rare, and though once in a while, they may be overlooked ... generally they aren't, which is why it really is an exception to find one outside the top 10 in the draft.

So, for those who think that we should go after Flynn, and save our draft picks for further building .... you don't understand the reality of today's NFL, or the ill for which the Reskins currently suffer.

We've had 4 successful high draft picks over the last 4 years, and guess what? This year we were 1 game worse than last year, and only 1 game better than the miserable year of 2009 with bingo callers and swinging gates, and the like. So what makes any of you think that using 2-3 more #1 picks on positions other than a top tier QB will provide so much more success than has been provided by Landry, Orakpo, Williams and Kerrigan?

I'm telling you ... not suggesting .... that those 4 picks were excellent picks (maybe Williams is a stretch) .... and we aren't measurably better than we were 4 years ago ... win-loss wise. So where's your evidence that saving 2 #1 picks, and passing on one of the two good QB prospects this year is the "smart" thing to do?

To me, the Redskin offense is stuck in "park" and anyone who thinks that being frugal with draft picks and passing on the team's greatest need right now is a good plan, is .... no offense ...stuck on stupid.

Good points!

frankcal20 wrote:

Red_One43 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:Do you guys see Shanahan changing his offense to fit a players skill set like RG3? I'd be shocked as hell if he did but I really don't think he will. I also think that he thinks he can find a guy to fit his system. Call me crazy but I also think that he likes this kid Johnathan Crompton who's currently on our team.

Andy Dalton was a spread QB. Why do you see in RGIII that makes you think that he can't make the transition to Shanny's O with it deep ball and mobility emhasis? This ain't Cam Newton, we are talking about who has needed the OC to tailor the O to him. You can be that even though, RGIII is already ahead of Cam, he will go through the QB camps to get ready for the pro level.

Let me start out by saying that RG3 was a really good college QB. He had a lot of weapons. Just look at his RB who knifed up the opposing D in their bowl game. Also, he has some pretty damn good WRs also. My gut says that they go in a different direction. I really do think that he's looking for a QB in the 6'2 - 6'5 range. 220lbs who is more of a pocket passer. There are guys in the draft who fit this mold and to top it all off, he's looking for a gun slinger. He's almost always had a guy like that in Elway, Plummer, Cutler. I'm not sure who fits that mold in this years draft or FA but I'm sure that Flynn sure as hell peaked their interest based on the two performances he's had and his ability to get the ball down the field.

Frank, I Have to be honest with you. My gut agree with your gut. I think Shanny is going elsewhere. You know it that Flynn has Shanny and everyone else looking very closely at all his film to see if he can fit.
I argue for RGIII because my gut says by the time, Senior Bowl, Combine and Pro Days are passed, RGIII will have convinced everyone that he is a Day I starter, but if that happens, the price will be even higher. Shanny has shown that if the price is too high, he will move on. I expect him to move on.

Charlie Casserly just said that if a team wants to move up in the top 10 to pick RG3, they'll demand two 1st and another pick based on who, where they are drafting. I'm sure it'll take at a minimum of a 3rd this year or 2013 2nd.

RG3 is only a Jr so he won't be at the Senior Bowl. They also mentioned that he isn't going to decide until Tuesday if he's even going to go pro. I think he will and I also think he's going to end up in Cleveland or another team who comes up to get him like Seattle.

frankcal20 wrote:Do you guys see Shanahan changing his offense to fit a players skill set like RG3? I'd be shocked as hell if he did but I really don't think he will. I also think that he thinks he can find a guy to fit his system. Call me crazy but I also think that he likes this kid Johnathan Crompton who's currently on our team.

I suggest you read this. I don't think he's going to create a new offense around one player, but he absolutely adapts to the QB's skills

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blog ... t&id=34788

frankcal20 wrote: They also mentioned that he isn't going to decide until Tuesday if he's even going to go pro. .

I heard that too. I thought he already declared????

Just read it but I still think that RG3 is just so different that it would require totally changing things.

frankcal20 wrote:Charlie Casserly just said that if a team wants to move up in the top 10 to pick RG3, they'll demand two 1st and another pick based on who, where they are drafting. I'm sure it'll take at a minimum of a 3rd this year or 2013 2nd.

RG3 is only a Jr so he won't be at the Senior Bowl. They also mentioned that he isn't going to decide until Tuesday if he's even going to go pro. I think he will and I also think he's going to end up in Cleveland or another team who comes up to get him like Seattle.

.

As a fan, I can stomach two number one's for RGIII. Beyond that it would need to get pretty creative.

chiefhog44 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:Do you guys see Shanahan changing his offense to fit a players skill set like RG3? I'd be shocked as hell if he did but I really don't think he will. I also think that he thinks he can find a guy to fit his system. Call me crazy but I also think that he likes this kid Johnathan Crompton who's currently on our team.

I suggest you read this. I don't think he's going to create a new offense around one player, but he absolutely adapts to the QB's skills

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blog ... t&id=34788

Thanks for posting.

Trading from sixth to second overall and adding a 2013 first rounder and this years third (believe we have 2 anyway?) is a deal I definitely can live with.

RGIII for B&G QB!! Please let it be! His smarts get overlooked by his skills but should be a big factor in why we DO take him. Not a lot of NFL players who went to law school is there? His off field character also outstanding something MS must have too.
RG has made efforts to change the Baylor college area as far as segregation and the "ghetto"

RGIII hasn't even announced if he's going to stay in college yet, they said it yesterday on CBS that he'll make a decision sometime this week. If he stays in college, we need to get Flynn and take a QB in the 2nd round.

chiefhog44 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote: They also mentioned that he isn't going to decide until Tuesday if he's even going to go pro. .

I heard that too. I thought he already declared????

Not officially, but he was asked during his post bowl game interview and said he would be entering the draft

GoSkins wrote:

SCSkinsFan wrote:

GoSkins wrote:

SCSkinsFan wrote:

Skeletor wrote:I like your avatar SCSkinsFan. I came across a retro Sonny Jurgenson jersey in a TJ Maxx about 10 years ago and still kick myself for not buying it...

That's actually a picture of an oil painting that I created from pictures and the cover from a Gameday Program that my father used to send me when I was stationed in Taiwan. I designed it and took to a local artist who then painted the oil painitng on canvas. If you'll look closely that's Charley Taylor catching a pass in the upper left nand corner, Larry Brown toting the rock in the lower left hand corner, and Jerry Smith (RIP) making a one handed grab in the lower right hand corner.

Awesome!

It hangs proudly at my house. BTW - My cousin is a graduate of Hampden-Sydney. He lives in Richmond, VA and suffers along with the rest of us. Skeletor should have bought that Retro Jersey!

I reside at Hampden-Sydney. I am a professor of History and have been a fan since the 1950's.

So you have suffered the Ralph Gugliemi, George Izo, Norm Snead, Leroy Jackson eras like Welch and some more of us too? Any chance you knew a Robert Owen who would have graduated Hampden-Sydney arouund 1967? He retired from Crestar Bank a few years ago.

Shanahan will be coaching this guy for a week this month.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x1D-w9z ... re=related

Against the LSU Defense

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXDEzCf3 ... re=related

Top End Mobility - 65Yd TD Run versus Top 10 Team

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AfAUxWP ... re=related

Not to mention that he runs a pro style offense under Mike Sherman. Now, Mike Sherman has (i) coached Tannenhill at Texas A & M, and (ii) he has ties to Gary Kubiak having coached with him at the Houston Texans, and (iii) Sherman has employed a version of the West Coast offense as both a HC, and a coordinator, and (iv) Tannenhill as shown above excels both from the pocket and on the run, and finally (v) Shanahan will have the chance to coach this kid for a week at the Senior Bowl, and might be able to draft him while also picking up more Top 40 picks this year.

BTW: The Year that Mike Sherman was promoted to Offensive Coordinator of the Houston Texans, guess who he promoted to QUARTERBACKS COACH -- Kyle Shanahan.

So while some fans are busy getting all hot and bothered over Luck, Griffin, & Matt Flynn--it might make some sense to pay attention to some other QBS who not only can play, but have a knowledge of our system and the Skills to become elite in it.

WATCH HIS LSU TAPE BEFORE SAYING ANYTHING SILLY PLEASE. WATCH HIM THROW FROM THE POCKET & ON THE RUN. WATCH HIM RUN THE BALL AND SEPARATE FROM THE LSU DEFENSE WHICH IS BASICALLY SEMI-PRO. THANKS IN ADVANCE.

The Hogster wrote:Shanahan will be coaching this guy for a week this month.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x1D-w9z ... re=related

Against the LSU Defense

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXDEzCf3 ... re=related

Top End Mobility - 65Yd TD Run versus Top 10 Team

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AfAUxWP ... re=related

Not to mention that he runs a pro style offense under Mike Sherman. Now, Mike Sherman has (i) coached Tannenhill at Texas A & M, and (ii) he has ties to Gary Kubiak having coached with him at the Houston Texans, and (iii) Sherman has employed a version of the West Coast offense as both a HC, and a coordinator, and (iv) Tannenhill as shown above excels both from the pocket and on the run, and finally (v) Shanahan will have the chance to coach this kid for a week at the Senior Bowl, and might be able to draft him while also picking up more Top 40 picks this year.

BTW: The Year that Mike Sherman was promoted to Offensive Coordinator of the Houston Texans, guess who he promoted to QUARTERBACKS COACH -- Kyle Shanahan.

So while some fans are busy getting all hot and bothered over Luck, Griffin, & Matt Flynn--it might make some sense to pay attention to some other QBS who not only can play, but have a knowledge of our system and the Skills to become elite in it.

WATCH HIS LSU TAPE BEFORE SAYING ANYTHING SILLY PLEASE. WATCH HIM THROW FROM THE POCKET & ON THE RUN. WATCH HIM RUN THE BALL AND SEPARATE FROM THE LSU DEFENSE WHICH IS BASICALLY SEMI-PRO. THANKS IN ADVANCE.

Yeah, but this QB shredded the LSU Defense. I bet he makes it to the Super Bowl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGJEXyWZDt0