The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

The O-Line actually surprised me today, other than the sack on Beck when he fumbled it. As for the other two turnovers, it was glaringly obvious that Hankerson ran the wrong route on the INT and Gaffney just looked horrible on that fumble. As for the close calls where Beck was almost picked off, wasn't there an equal or greater amount of passes that should have been caught, 2 of which would have resulted in first downs?

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:It doesn't matter how it happens, 2 turnovers is 2 turnovers

In comparing Beck to Grossman it doensn't matter how the team turned over the ball? The O Line let's him get hit from behind ready to throw? A receiver drops the ball? Gotcha...

I can see CanesSkins point. A Carolina DB had a ball hit him in the hands and he dropped it. I might be misremembering, but the sack-fumble happened when Beck hung in the pocket a little too long. I'm not saying it's 100% his fault, but it can't be dismissed by mentioning the offensive line, either.

However, I don't agree that Beck is no better than Grossman in regard to turnovers. He was making better decisions and better throws, IMO. And since one game isn't enough to judge statistical continuity, I'm expecting him to prove out his better decisions/throws in stats over the next several games.

Hopefully the receivers and Beck can get into a rhythm over the next couple of weeks and our offense will be able to turn it around.

There is no doubt that Beck will continue to be the QB - he is clearly the better of the 2 QBs

Beck WILL improve with a little time

Grossman was given the reins and showed that he was NOT going to improve


I repeat - we'll go with the better QB right now and watch him get better as he gets more comfortable


Grossman is the back up QB and will not be here next year


Beck's play and 'presence' was VERY encouraging

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:2 turnovers. About the same as Grossman in that regard. Can't win at that rate.

If you watched the game, that is so uninsightful a point. Beck got hit while his arm was in backward motion to throw, the other fumble was after the catch. And Grossman has played in recent years and this year and with the starters and has more experience in general.

I saw your other point and Grossman had close calls too. So what you have is:

There were 2 turnovers that were clearly not Beck's fault, you're going to ignore experience and prep in is FIRST game starting and you're going to hold close calls against him but not Grossman.

As I said, uninsightful.

On the drive that Beck fumbled, previous to that he threw two balls that both easily could have been picked. The Panthers' D didn't make the plays, but the point is that we have to protect the football.

As for the turnovers not being Beck's fault, he admitted post-game that he and Hankerson had a miss-communication and that he should have gone somewhere else with the football. Sure, on some turnovers the blame isn't 100 percent on the qb, but the qb is the constant. And if Beck continues to stand in the pocket and wait for as long as he did yesterday we are going to see a lot more fumbles coming from him.

Irn-Bru wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:It doesn't matter how it happens, 2 turnovers is 2 turnovers

In comparing Beck to Grossman it doensn't matter how the team turned over the ball? The O Line let's him get hit from behind ready to throw? A receiver drops the ball? Gotcha...

I can see CanesSkins point. A Carolina DB had a ball hit him in the hands and he dropped it. I might be misremembering, but the sack-fumble happened when Beck hung in the pocket a little too long. I'm not saying it's 100% his fault, but it can't be dismissed by mentioning the offensive line, either.

Fair enough. Clearly that was an INT on Beck that was dropped and hanging in the pocket too long was a factor. But I pointed out more then that. I pointed out this is Beck's first game since 2007 and Grossman's been playing a lot and that Grossman had a lot of close calls too and we're counting only his actual turnovers while Beck is getting close called counted against him.

Irn-Bru wrote:However, I don't agree that Beck is no better than Grossman in regard to turnovers. He was making better decisions and better throws, IMO. And since one game isn't enough to judge statistical continuity, I'm expecting him to prove out his better decisions/throws in stats over the next several games.

Agreed, and he has to improve. I'm not saying where he is works, just that for a first game it does. You're agreeing with that.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:2 turnovers. About the same as Grossman in that regard. Can't win at that rate.

If you watched the game, that is so uninsightful a point. Beck got hit while his arm was in backward motion to throw, the other fumble was after the catch. And Grossman has played in recent years and this year and with the starters and has more experience in general.

I saw your other point and Grossman had close calls too. So what you have is:

There were 2 turnovers that were clearly not Beck's fault, you're going to ignore experience and prep in is FIRST game starting and you're going to hold close calls against him but not Grossman.

As I said, uninsightful.

On the drive that Beck fumbled, previous to that he threw two balls that both easily could have been picked. The Panthers' D didn't make the plays, but the point is that we have to protect the football.

As for the turnovers not being Beck's fault, he admitted post-game that he and Hankerson had a miss-communication and that he should have gone somewhere else with the football. Sure, on some turnovers the blame isn't 100 percent on the qb, but the qb is the constant. And if Beck continues to stand in the pocket and wait for as long as he did yesterday we are going to see a lot more fumbles coming from him.

None of this counters my point.

Saying that Beck had close calls doesn't counter my point that you are only counting Grossman's actual turnovers verus Beck's close calls. If you want to argue Grossman didn't have a bunch of close calls in addition to the actual turnovers, go for it. I'm not thinking that conversation is going to go well for you, but you're welcome to try.

And you're ignoring completely my point that Beck hasn't played with the first team like Grossman and Grossman's had a heck of a lot more recent year experience then Beck.

Your statement that 2 = 2, period, is categorically preposterous and completely uninsightful.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:2 turnovers. About the same as Grossman in that regard. Can't win at that rate.

If you watched the game, that is so uninsightful a point. Beck got hit while his arm was in backward motion to throw, the other fumble was after the catch. And Grossman has played in recent years and this year and with the starters and has more experience in general.

I saw your other point and Grossman had close calls too. So what you have is:

There were 2 turnovers that were clearly not Beck's fault, you're going to ignore experience and prep in is FIRST game starting and you're going to hold close calls against him but not Grossman.

As I said, uninsightful.

On the drive that Beck fumbled, previous to that he threw two balls that both easily could have been picked. The Panthers' D didn't make the plays, but the point is that we have to protect the football.

As for the turnovers not being Beck's fault, he admitted post-game that he and Hankerson had a miss-communication and that he should have gone somewhere else with the football. Sure, on some turnovers the blame isn't 100 percent on the qb, but the qb is the constant. And if Beck continues to stand in the pocket and wait for as long as he did yesterday we are going to see a lot more fumbles coming from him.

None of this counters my point.

Saying that Beck had close calls doesn't counter my point that you are only counting Grossman's actual turnovers verus Beck's close calls. If you want to argue Grossman didn't have a bunch of close calls in addition to the actual turnovers, go for it. I'm not thinking that conversation is going to go well for you, but you're welcome to try.

And you're ignoring completely my point that Beck hasn't played with the first team like Grossman and Grossman's had a heck of a lot more recent year experience then Beck.

Your statement that 2 = 2, period, is categorically preposterous and completely uninsightful.

Rex stinks, that's the bottom line. He had plenty of close calls that we were lucky didn't go against us, I'm in no way disputing that. I just don't like the argument of discounting turnovers as not being a qb's fault. Some people tried to blame Davis for 2 of Rex's ints against Philly and I don't buy that anymore than I buy that Beck didn't have responsibility for the two turnovers yesterday, because in every game with mediocre qbs you can find throws that could have or should have been picked, and that was the case with Rex and also yesterday with Beck.

With Beck, you can argue that the two turnovers weren't 100 percent his fault, but they still happened and he played a role in them. And we aren't going to win, no matter who the qb is, if we keep getting multiple turnovers from the qb position each week. Unfortunately, Beck continued the trend of multiple qb turnovers yesterday and he has to improve significantly over the coming weeks or else we'll keep losing ballgames. He did some nice things yesterday, but he had 53 yards passing in the first half and most of his stats came in the second half once Carolina started sitting back more on D.

We now have a QB that can manage the offense - what there is

Beck did very well considering and will continue to improve

No one is pencilling him in as the franchise... but he will prove to be capable of tiding the team until one is in place and ready to run. Hopefully, there is not a Heath Shuler in our future... that really blew...

They were low first half stats because the run ru. Run mentality everyone wanted from Kyle was working... Then when it led to fgs and our D didn't hold we were playing catch and had to pass. It sux we lost but beck is clearly the best we have at this time and I look forward to his play getting better each week with more snaps and practice with the ones. His mobility was a beautiful thing to see yesterday. Now he has two rushing tds... Don't remember seeing much of those- except for the infamous Gus Ferrot scamper TD that led to a head butt to the wall and him injuring himself! CLASSIC

The Redskins have NEVER drafted a franchise quarterback. Let's just hope Beck continues to improve, or we get lucky enough to acquire a franchise quarterback in a trade. There's been a very long list of disappointments from Jason Campbell to Patrick Ramsey to (yuck) Heath Schuler.

CanesSkins26 wrote:Rex stinks, that's the bottom line. He had plenty of close calls that we were lucky didn't go against us, I'm in no way disputing that. I just don't like the argument of discounting turnovers as not being a qb's fault. Some people tried to blame Davis for 2 of Rex's ints against Philly and I don't buy that anymore than I buy that Beck didn't have responsibility for the two turnovers yesterday, because in every game with mediocre qbs you can find throws that could have or should have been picked, and that was the case with Rex and also yesterday with Beck.

With Beck, you can argue that the two turnovers weren't 100 percent his fault, but they still happened and he played a role in them. And we aren't going to win, no matter who the qb is, if we keep getting multiple turnovers from the qb position each week. Unfortunately, Beck continued the trend of multiple qb turnovers yesterday and he has to improve significantly over the coming weeks or else we'll keep losing ballgames. He did some nice things yesterday, but he had 53 yards passing in the first half and most of his stats came in the second half once Carolina started sitting back more on D.

Fair enough. "2=2, period" was an odd way to phrase this argument.

Countertrey wrote:No one is pencilling him in as the franchise... but he will prove to be capable of tiding the team until one is in place and ready to run. Hopefully, there is not a Heath Shuler in our future... that really blew...

Sorry, your only choices are that he's now anointed as our franchise quarterback for the next decade even though he's 30 and a clear, at a minimum, candidate for the HOF, or that he's snail slug and we need to have him killed and buried in the cement at Giant stadium. There is no other option, pick please...

StorminMormon86 wrote:The Redskins have NEVER drafted a franchise quarterback.

That's not true!!

They drafted one of the best QB's ever to play the game, Sammy Baugh. 74 years ago.

I stand by my prediction. John Beck didn't lose this game. Gaffney had a crucial dropped pass and a fumble that killed two drives that would have lead to points. Fred Davis had a crucial 3rd down drop that killed another scoring drive. Even with those mistakes, he put up nearly 300 yards and completed 60 percent of his passes in his FIRST start in 4 years.

Give him time to develop. People kill me by saying Rex deserved another shot after 4 picks, but think Beck is no good after 1 pretty good game.

Interesting article of John Beck defending Hankerson on the INT:
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2011/10/ ... -hankerson

I like Beck. Only time will tell what his ultimate role in Washington will be, but he's certainly got great character. Do you think the rest of the locker room is buying in to the John Beck era in DC?

Skinsfan55 wrote:They drafted one of the best QB's ever to play the game, Sammy Baugh. 74 years ago.

I should have said in the "modern" era.

Whatever else is said, John Beck just guaranteed a friend in Hankerson...

John Beck:

“I just want to add one more thing, too,” Beck said. “The play with Hankerson, it’s on me. I’m the guy that’s got the ball in my hand and I’m the guy that makes the decision for where that ball goes. We’re very excited to have Hankerson be a part of this football team. He’s going to be a great asset to this football team. Nothing goes on Hankerson at all, it goes on me. You got that? Sound alright? Alright thank you.”

The rest here

That's stand up... that's leadership. I like it...

Sorry, Diesel44... missed your post...

Countertrey wrote:Sorry, Diesel44... missed your post...

Not a problem... you did a better job quoting the article than I did anyway.

But I agree with you. Beck has been showing his leadership abilities since the offseason. Glad to see him get his shot. I love to see a leader ready to step up and take responsibility, not just for himself, but for his team.

This is the "attitiude" that I saw in the Redskins who got off to a quick start. This is the mentality that leads to hard work, admitting mistakes and working towards being a winner. A team mentality that started to slip when Rex's excuses were starting to pile up.

Thankfully Mike doesn't impulsively run this team based off of his emotions like most of U would and Snyder has.

A QB will be obtained, when the time is right. U guys gush over Kerrigan but U want a QB. U gushed over Jenkins but U wanted a QB. Hankerson (a QB could have been taken there but they didnt see wut they wanted, fair enough...). And so on and so on. U can't have everything in one off-season.

Beck certainly does say all the right things in his press conferences/interviews. He definitely stepped it up in the offseason with the studying films, practicing, etc. and he's clearly a leader on this team. Love his attitude.

Only impressive play I give Beck was the TD run. Outside of that it was some throws high schoolers could make. With that said, he definitely had a slight edge over Grossman other than the Giants game.

It is sad that our expectations for a QB is so low since we haven't had a decent one in a long time. I liked that he got rid of the ball quick, however he tends to make up his mind who he will throw it to and regardless of how many people are on him and throw it anyway. Some of those plays he coulda just took his time and went to different reads.

I think he will get better with that as I'm sure he was a lil nervous, but DEFENSE's will eat him up. He only throws in the middle of the field. If you notice (Grossman did too). I would like to see them have more variation like some quick outs, comebacks, and sideline posts. Watch next game and see how many right down the middle passes he attempts....the only change is the receiver that goes down the middle.

He's sat on the bench for four years, and has not practiced with the starting offense since preseason. What did you expect out of him? He looked better than Grossman in ANY of the games he started, and that was with the rusty first half start.

John Beck surprised me - give this guy the rest of this season and he'll be fine for this franchise going forward

we'll get a QB in the draft that can be a really good QB here for years

the Shanaplan will be adding players thru the draft and free agency that will really start to gel by the middle of 2012

John Beck is going to be fine as the Redskins QB