The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Skinsfan55 wrote:Okay, I believe they can improve and turn this thing around, but saying it takes time implies that the players needed to build a top shelf line are here right now. So far we have:

-An underperforming LT
-A LG who looks like he may become a solid NFL player
-An unproven C who has never been considered a real NFL prospect
-A guy at RG who has consistently been outplayed by his teammates in Baltimore only playing due to injury
-A RT who used to play on the other side, was highly decorated but who had the worst season of their career last year

It's not that close to being a "very good" offensive line. They've been solid so far with so few penalties, but let's give this another year or so and let Shanahan evaluate and add more players.

Please clarify this - there are not many here who think that we have the players here for a "top shelf" offensive line
We do not have the players here yet - we're getting there
it takes time after getting the players to establish a "top shelf" O line

PATIENCE please - geez Louise

the O line was a disgrace - NO O linemen from 2008/2009 will be on the roster in 2012

The Shanaplan is in process - we are not re-building (that implies that the franchise had something to build with) this is a transformation
Both the offensive and defensive schemes have changed completely

we are a 6-10 franchise that is still a work in progress - 8-8 or 9-7 would be good
10-6 would almost guarantee Shanahan a place in "Comeback History"


the defense is close to being OK - the offense, especially the O line is still a work in progress

The beauty of Shanahan's ZBS is that you can do more with less.

The flip side is that it has a cost... The power running game becomes less effective... and you have smaller OL's providing pass pro...making them more vulnerable to bull rushes and power moves.

Shanahan will look for the best athletic talent available... but he will make do when necessary.

There will, undoubtedly, continue to be upgrades, but Shanahan will continue to be content with "good enough. Right now, this line is improving... and probably qualifies. They are making holes at the first level, occasionally making blocks a the second level, and are committing no penalties. Problems seem to relate mostly to a continued learning curve, and passing off assignments on the fly. I'm not seeing problems with the level of talent.

The lack of offensive linemen penalties is both a reflection on the coaches and the growing confidence these guys have with each other and the ZBS

I'd agree that it's getting the job done ... for now
we will see players added especially to have the quality depth that we need

I don't buy the "do more with less" argument. It's not "less" it's different.

Running a zone blocking scheme doesn't require less talent, on the contrary it requires the typical skillset, but a greater emphasis on athleticism. Does that mean ZBS players are easier to find? I submit, they are not easier to find. Sure one might fall through the cracks liks Kory L but it's tough to find a big man who is nimble, quick and still has the strength to contain his man.

Shanahan didn't do more with less in Denver. For 3 years he had a hall of fame left tackle in Gary Zimmerman. He had pro bowl LG and former Hog Mark Schlereth. He had a great center in perennial pro bowler and two time all pro Tom Nalen. Later on he got Matt Lepsis who was a star lineman, Dan Neil was an excellent guard, Ben Hamilton was good... he had a lot of talent.

I will argue that Shanahan is a great evaluator of offensive line talent but saying he does more with less is a disservice to the players he's had.

^^ not really - Mike's gotten a lot more out of his players because he's a good coach

ALL these guys have a lot of talent - they become 'great' MORE because of the players and coaches they play with and next to

SkinsJock wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:Okay, I believe they can improve and turn this thing around, but saying it takes time implies that the players needed to build a top shelf line are here right now. So far we have:

-An underperforming LT
-A LG who looks like he may become a solid NFL player
-An unproven C who has never been considered a real NFL prospect
-A guy at RG who has consistently been outplayed by his teammates in Baltimore only playing due to injury
-A RT who used to play on the other side, was highly decorated but who had the worst season of their career last year

It's not that close to being a "very good" offensive line. They've been solid so far with so few penalties, but let's give this another year or so and let Shanahan evaluate and add more players.

Please clarify this - there are not many here who think that we have the players here for a "top shelf" offensive line
We do not have the players here yet - we're getting there
it takes time after getting the players to establish a "top shelf" O line

PATIENCE please - geez Louise

the defense is close to being OK - the offense, especially the O line is still a work in progress

In response, we are nowhere near "getting there". While this OL has improved since last year, it is very far from being "solid". In reality, we only have 1 single OL member that can be considered "top shelf" or even above avg. It is no secret that SB teams have superior OLs.

1 out of 5 is not "getting there". TW obviously is the 1. Brown is mediocre. Our guards are both below avg (I would assert that Lichensteiger can be classified as straight up "bad"). I haven't had very much time to evaluate our center, but he appears (after 2 games) to be in the mediocre range (mainly because it appears that he has outperformed Rabach from last season). We need upgrades at 3 positions on our OL (unless Montgomery proves me wrong this year).

The one good thing is that if Rexy continues to play as he has been the past two games, we can place greater emphasis on drafting OL (more like OG) and not take a QB in R1 -- although if someone like Landry Jones falls to us, it may be too tempting.

And patience flew out the window back in 2003.

Skinsfan55 wrote:I don't buy the "do more with less" argument. It's not "less" it's different.

Running a zone blocking scheme doesn't require less talent, on the contrary it requires the typical skillset, but a greater emphasis on athleticism. Does that mean ZBS players are easier to find? I submit, they are not easier to find. Sure one might fall through the cracks liks Kory L but it's tough to find a big man who is nimble, quick and still has the strength to contain his man.

Shanahan didn't do more with less in Denver. For 3 years he had a hall of fame left tackle in Gary Zimmerman. He had pro bowl LG and former Hog Mark Schlereth. He had a great center in perennial pro bowler and two time all pro Tom Nalen. Later on he got Matt Lepsis who was a star lineman, Dan Neil was an excellent guard, Ben Hamilton was good... he had a lot of talent.

I will argue that Shanahan is a great evaluator of offensive line talent but saying he does more with less is a disservice to the players he's had.

Please actually read what was written... not what you have decided was written. Unless your purpose is argument for argument's sake... in which case what was written doesn't matter...

Mike and his coaches will have a good offensive line with depth next year

the offensive line play has come a long way from what we saw in 2008/2009 - this ZBS and this staff can make players be lot more effective
that is not a long time and if anyone can't appreciate where we were a couple of years ago and what is happening now they don't know squat about O line play


we are a lot better than many give us credit for and we're only going to get better

we would not be a good offense without a good O line and next year we'll be a good offense

that's unbelievaable after what we saw here 2 years ago

Skinsfan55 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:Williams is going to be a part of a very good offensive line here for years

just like a fine wine - it takes time


it's a lot easier to look good when the unit your're playing with includes a lot of other good players - like our defensive front 7


We are very lucky these guys brought Trent Williams in here - this O line will continue to improve

Okay, I believe they can improve and turn this thing around, but saying it takes time implies that the players needed to build a top shelf line are here right now. So far we have:

-An underperforming LT
-A LG who looks like he may become a solid NFL player
-An unproven C who has never been considered a real NFL prospect
-A guy at RG who has consistently been outplayed by his teammates in Baltimore only playing due to injury
-A RT who used to play on the other side, was highly decorated but who had the worst season of their career last year

It's not that close to being a "very good" offensive line. They've been solid so far with so few penalties, but let's give this another year or so and let Shanahan evaluate and add more players.

Chester was in a power blocking scheme in Balt. Shanny thinks he's a better fit for ZBS. Brown played well late last yr. It sometimes takes more than 1 yr to come back from an injury.

Skinsfan55 wrote:I don't buy the "do more with less" argument. It's not "less" it's different.

Running a zone blocking scheme doesn't require less talent, on the contrary it requires the typical skillset, but a greater emphasis on athleticism. Does that mean ZBS players are easier to find? I submit, they are not easier to find. Sure one might fall through the cracks liks Kory L but it's tough to find a big man who is nimble, quick and still has the strength to contain his man.

Shanahan didn't do more with less in Denver. For 3 years he had a hall of fame left tackle in Gary Zimmerman. He had pro bowl LG and former Hog Mark Schlereth. He had a great center in perennial pro bowler and two time all pro Tom Nalen. Later on he got Matt Lepsis who was a star lineman, Dan Neil was an excellent guard, Ben Hamilton was good... he had a lot of talent.

I will argue that Shanahan is a great evaluator of offensive line talent but saying he does more with less is a disservice to the players he's had.

Tom Nalen 7th Rd pick 1994 Broncos
Dan Neil 3rd Rd pick 1997 Broncos
Ben Hamilton 4th Rd 2001 Broncos
Matt Lepsis undrafted free agent 1997

Seeing what rounds these guys were drafted or not drafted - it sounds like Shanahan does more with less.

Lichtensteiger, Chester and Montgomery - Will we be talking about these guys in the same breath of those aforementioned guys in the near future?

Some stars are not born. They are made.

^^ what he said

the guys in charge here are utilising the players they have very well and are making this franchise be a force to contend with

this is a team game and the NFL is full of players with a lot of talent

the secret is how you put it all together and these coaches are doing just fine


we are becoming a force to be reckoned with and we're doing it with players that many did not think would be this good

Trent Williams was a very good selection - there were some other 'good' players available but Mike & Bruce saw the value here

Trent is doing a good job tonight, and he's getting pretty chippy vs Ware. Lots of post play shoving an d jawing back and forth. It's awesome.

Skinsfan55 wrote:Trent is doing a good job tonight, and he's getting pretty chippy vs Ware. Lots of post play shoving an d jawing back and forth. It's awesome.

True that.

In fact, they had to move Ware around because Trent had him neutralized.

Very happy with Trent Williams tonight.

I even noted I think in the 2nd or 3rd quarter that Trent Williams was owning Demarcus Ware so much they finally had to flip over onto Jammal Brown.

and that worked.

Somebody lit a fire under Trent. Love it.

Red_One43 wrote:Somebody lit a fire under Trent. Love it.

Nobody lit a fire under him, 9/10 people on here just overreacted.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Red_One43 wrote:Somebody lit a fire under Trent. Love it.

Nobody lit a fire under him, 9/10 people on here just overreacted.

No way! Overreaction on THN? Preposterous!

Trent played a great game. Loved the fire and loved it when he shoved Ware on that play. Superb!

Hip Hip Jor-ge (Spanish for George)...is hooorhay

Trent in the trench........doing just fine

considering that t.williams is completley left alone and getting no help at all against dominant pass-rushers( for example DeMarcus Ware) is doing great.

Agreed... Anyone see him pancake ware?
Getn dirty with him was soooooo fun to see

Trent had a good game this week. Consistency is key though.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc- ... _blog.html
Saw this article about his tackle of James Laurinaitis. There's certainly no question as to Trent's athleticism.
He out ran a handful of his teammates across the field to make the tackle.

I love the hustle!!!

The consistency and consistent improvement is starting to show. This front office is starting to look really really good with its drafting decisions. Actually, with most of its decisions so far, save for McNabb.