Skeptical That Redskins Can Win With Grossman Or Beck

[Red_One43]

Red_One asked what I base my 10 - 14 draft selection on. I base it on the fact that I see no real imporvements other than imn personnel attitude.

QB - same
RB - not as good, unless the drafted backs show more than expected of a
rookie back.
Receivers - same if Moss resigned, otherwise worse
OL - same
DL - same
Linebacker - same, depending on what Kerrigan does. Maybe better,
maybe worse depending on Kerrigan and FA
Defensive Backfield - same, depending on Rogers replacement
Special Teams - same
Schedule - better than last year.
Team attitude - better

Everything is now depending on the FA's, which is an unknown
right now. I see improvements but do not see earthshaking improvements. Again, everything depends on FA.

In today's NFL, the quarterback is the sparkplug that drives the team. The Redskins have no one capable of doing that (IMO). Does anyone other than Grossman or Beck really expect to see one of these two catch fire and become the next Manning, Brady or even a Flacco or Ryan? I just don't see the Redskins in a position to get Luck in the next draft without crippling the progress of the team. Luck will not be the only quarterback in the next draft and maybe not the best.

Thanks Aswas. That answers my question. I can see where you are coming from.

I give the offense and defense improvement points because they are in the second year of there scheme. ey mentioned (link provided in two threads beginning with ey) that one of the biggest problems last year was not running the offense right. The defense had the same problem with as the offense. They didn't know their assignments. The same players knowing their assignments better has to provide some improvement right there. McIntosh according to a J. Reid report messed his assignment quite a bit in the season. He came up strong during with is assignments the last couple of game. Your LB play will be improved easily.

You have looked at personnel, but I didn't see you mention whether or not better knowledge of the scheme makes a difference.

For rookies, true, they are unproven, but they were all team first, high motor strong wthic guys - True, I am going on the history of these types of draft choices, but I also line up Hankerson vs Galloway and Williams. I just look at that and say how can you go anywhere but up. Kerrigan vs. Carter at OLB- Kerrigan all the way. AC not a fit at all at OLB. That's why Zo replaced AC. Kerrigan versus Alexander at OLB. Look Shanny moved Zo out of Kerrigan's way for a reason. Zo was a good OLB but he wasn't what we were looking for or otherwise, Kerrigan would be his back up starting out. Again, plus goes to the rookie. Keiland Williams, a rookie, showed more than expected. Are you familiar with Roy Helu, Jr.? this guy is a work ethic monster with sprinter's speed. This isn't some project back - we traded up in that round to get the guy. His speed alone upgrades your backfield.

OL - Earlier in this thread, a few posts back, in response to Crazyhorse, I provided stats that showed our line improved during the course of the season. In that same article that I provided a link, it stated that as a general rule, a line needs 1,000 reps to gel. Our current line has 400. As bad as this line started out even if we kept the same guys as starters (I don't advocate and I don't think that we will), these guys would be much better.

DL - We had two defensive starters coming off missed seasons in2009 (Kemo and Carriker). Kemoatu was coming off a torn achilles tendon. It takes more than a year for a D lineman to get up to speed with that kind of injury. Two years removed form the injury automatically make him better than last year. Anthony Young proved that he could hold the line. He could not play. We also drafted true NT. Yes, unproven another strong work ethic guy, so chances are strong he will be on the team next year.
NT is not all star level but much better than last year.

Last season we only had two games in which we we never in a position to win (Monday night against Philly and the first Giant game). We led the both the Lions and Rams late in those games before the final score looked like a the games weren't close. Based on the improvement of the line, knowledge of the offense, a QB that wants to run the offense and starts the season with that ethic, a defense that knows its schemes better, a stronger and healthier NT rotation, a replacement for Golston at starting DE (Jenkins or Jarmon) and a clearly better option opposite Orakpo, we will be a better team this year.

Secondary needs some help. We all know that D Hall is a big play guy for us but he gives up big plays against us - 90 TD for the Giants. Rogers would be better is returning. Remember Landry got hurt early and finally was lost for the season - That hurt our defense. Atogwe helps us tremendously because our FS play was WEAK. Right now on paper our secondary is better than the one that finished the season last year. Further evidence to see positive in our defense better much better.

I am not saying that our current roster is ready for the play-offs. I am saying that I am confident of a winning season next year, because these guys were a bounce or two away from .500. Most of those problems at least on paper right now are something we will not have to deal with.

I do respect your opinion and don't expect everyone to see things my way, but that doesn't mean I will not try to show you another way to look at the same things that I am looking.

I am looking forward to reading your comments once free agency occurs as we can expect some holes to be filled and some just plain ole upgrading.

[Red_One43]

Here is a comparison of stats for Donovan McNabb and Rex Grossman. I will agree with everyone that stats, alone, don't tell the whole story, but as fans we won't know the whole story anyway. I am putting this out there because some folks are talking like Grossman is such a big drop off from McNabb. The stats say otherwise.

A lot of posters have said that McNabb is a better option at QB than Grossman (I said it). McNabb certainly is more athletic, stronger armed, more mobile, more experienced and just overall more talented. Yes, based on the above Donovan is the better option.

But who is the better option to run Kyle's offense? McNabb or Grossman.
McNabb is the more talented QB. He had all of the off season OTA's and mini camps to work with the first team. He worked with the first team all of training camp (He did miss two pre-season games which didn't help). He had 11 games as the first team QB taking first team reps in practice.
Yet, a lowly QB like Grossman came in and pretty much matched McNabb's stats. Here's something that does not show in the stats, the tempo of the offense sped up when Grossman got in there.

People talk about bone headed plays by Grossman last season, but did you guys see that McNabb interception in the Bears game that went for a TD or the interception right to the defender early in the Colts game while we were driving in their territory that went right to the defender or the throw into triple coverage against the Lions? Do we need to bring up the balls thrown in the dirt? They played equally in this department.

Grossman is not the long term answer (Maybe Beck is?), but we do need a QB who is willing to learn Kyle's offense precisely the way he wants it run and can run it now. Grossman is the only option based on last year (Again, Beck has no last year stats. I rather have a Grossman, who might even be better in his third year in this offense, than a McNabb who cannot or will not run the offense the way Kyle wants it run (Beck would fall into the category of running the offense the way Kyle wants it run, so I wait and see on him). The stats show we lost a little bit and gained a little bit when Grossman took over. The upped tempo of the offense would indicate no drop off in leadership. In fact, it might indicate a plus in leadership. The comeback in the Dallas game showed that the team was willing to rally around Grossman which also points to leadership when Grossman is in there. Grossman has QB'd a team to the Super Bowl before, he is quite capable of playing well enough to get us a winning season next season. He will definitely need a more improved O line.
He is no Ben Rothlisberger who can still win with a poor O line.

2010 Stats:

Rex Grossman

Co Att Pct Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Int Lng 20+ 40+

74 133 55.6 33.2 884 6.6 221.0 7 4 64T 10 2

Sck Rating
9 81.2

Donovan McNabb

Co Att Pct Att/G Yds Avg YDS/G TD INT LNG 20+ 40+
275 472 58.3 36.3 3,377 7.2 259.8 14 15 76 41 11

Sck Rating
37 77.1

[SkinsJock]

I'm hoping that Mike (and Kyle) have a QB in mind that can just be a dependable QB for this season - Grossman and or Beck might be OK but I think we have to look longer term and I'm not sure that Mike wants either as the next QB's mentor and back up

we are not a playoff team yet and I hope we continue to build both the offensive and defensive lines this season - I feel that next season we'll see improvement on both lines like we saw a little of from the offensive line towards the end of last season

I am not concerned that Grossman or Beck can do an adequate job but they certainly are not very good QBs in my estimation and I hope Mike & Kyle have a long term plan for the QB position - I don't think that Grossman or Beck fit into that plan both for this season and beyond as we get our next great QB ready

I'd rather have McNabb but if his attitude (and his practice and performance) is not going to be able to handle doing the job that Kyle wants then I'd prefer we bring in someone that can and will be the mentor AND the back up for the next great QB here

[crazyhorse1]

Red_One asked what I base my 10 - 14 draft selection on. I base it on the fact that I see no real imporvements other than imn personnel attitude.

QB - same
RB - not as good, unless the drafted backs show more than expected of a
rookie back.
Receivers - same if Moss resigned, otherwise worse
OL - same
DL - same
Linebacker - same, depending on what Kerrigan does. Maybe better,
maybe worse depending on Kerrigan and FA
Defensive Backfield - same, depending on Rogers replacement
Special Teams - same
Schedule - better than last year.
Team attitude - better

Everything is now depending on the FA's, which is an unknown
right now. I see improvements but do not see earthshaking improvements. Again, everything depends on FA.

In today's NFL, the quarterback is the sparkplug that drives the team. The Redskins have no one capable of doing that (IMO). Does anyone other than Grossman or Beck really expect to see one of these two catch fire and become the next Manning, Brady or even a Flacco or Ryan? I just don't see the Redskins in a position to get Luck in the next draft without crippling the progress of the team. Luck will not be the only quarterback in the next draft and maybe not the best.

Thanks Aswas. That answers my question. I can see where you are coming from.

I give the offense and defense improvement points because they are in the second year of there scheme. ey mentioned (link provided in two threads beginning with ey) that one of the biggest problems last year was not running the offense right. The defense had the same problem with as the offense. They didn't know their assignments. The same players knowing their assignments better has to provide some improvement right there. McIntosh according to a J. Reid report messed his assignment quite a bit in the season. He came up strong during with is assignments the last couple of game. Your LB play will be improved easily.

You have looked at personnel, but I didn't see you mention whether or not better knowledge of the scheme makes a difference.

For rookies, true, they are unproven, but they were all team first, high motor strong wthic guys - True, I am going on the history of these types of draft choices, but I also line up Hankerson vs Galloway and Williams. I just look at that and say how can you go anywhere but up. Kerrigan vs. Carter at OLB- Kerrigan all the way. AC not a fit at all at OLB. That's why Zo replaced AC. Kerrigan versus Alexander at OLB. Look Shanny moved Zo out of Kerrigan's way for a reason. Zo was a good OLB but he wasn't what we were looking for or otherwise, Kerrigan would be his back up starting out. Again, plus goes to the rookie. Keiland Williams, a rookie, showed more than expected. Are you familiar with Roy Helu, Jr.? this guy is a work ethic monster with sprinter's speed. This isn't some project back - we traded up in that round to get the guy. His speed alone upgrades your backfield.

OL - Earlier in this thread, a few posts back, in response to Crazyhorse, I provided stats that showed our line improved during the course of the season. In that same article that I provided a link, it stated that as a general rule, a line needs 1,000 reps to gel. Our current line has 400. As bad as this line started out even if we kept the same guys as starters (I don't advocate and I don't think that we will), these guys would be much better.

DL - We had two defensive starters coming off missed seasons in2009 (Kemo and Carriker). Kemoatu was coming off a torn achilles tendon. It takes more than a year for a D lineman to get up to speed with that kind of injury. Two years removed form the injury automatically make him better than last year. Anthony Young proved that he could hold the line. He could not play. We also drafted true NT. Yes, unproven another strong work ethic guy, so chances are strong he will be on the team next year.
NT is not all star level but much better than last year.

Last season we only had two games in which we we never in a position to win (Monday night against Philly and the first Giant game). We led the both the Lions and Rams late in those games before the final score looked like a the games weren't close. Based on the improvement of the line, knowledge of the offense, a QB that wants to run the offense and starts the season with that ethic, a defense that knows its schemes better, a stronger and healthier NT rotation, a replacement for Golston at starting DE (Jenkins or Jarmon) and a clearly better option opposite Orakpo, we will be a better team this year.

Secondary needs some help. We all know that D Hall is a big play guy for us but he gives up big plays against us - 90 TD for the Giants. Rogers would be better is returning. Remember Landry got hurt early and finally was lost for the season - That hurt our defense. Atogwe helps us tremendously because our FS play was WEAK. Right now on paper our secondary is better than the one that finished the season last year. Further evidence to see positive in our defense better much better.

I am not saying that our current roster is ready for the play-offs. I am saying that I am confident of a winning season next year, because these guys were a bounce or two away from .500. Most of those problems at least on paper right now are something we will not have to deal with.

I do respect your opinion and don't expect everyone to see things my way, but that doesn't mean I will not try to show you another way to look at the same things that I am looking.

I am looking forward to reading your comments once free agency occurs as we can expect some holes to be filled and some just plain ole upgrading.

I do not believe that our players last year didn't know their assignments, except maybe McNabb, who reportedly refused to wear the crib sheet QB's wear on their wrists. Football may be complex, but its not rocket science and teams are well prepared by their coaches. We lost because our players were not as good as players on other teams, pure and simple.
The OL and DL we had last year were atrocious, almost man for man worse than the men they were facing. I think the only real hope for this season is for Danny to bring out his wallet and hit the FA market hard. Last year's austery program didn't work, obviously, and suceeded only in saving bucks and putting a sub par team on the field.l

[Red_One43]

crazyhorse1 wrote:

I do not believe that our players last year didn't know their assignments, except maybe McNabb, who reportedly refused to wear the crib sheet QB's wear on their wrists. Football may be complex, but its not rocket science and teams are well prepared by their coaches.

Chris ey says:

What I did see and what a lot of players saw, was a an offense not functioning the way it was being coached to function. We didn't put that on Donovan. We put it on everyone as a group, collectively. But it was clear that when we installed and when we went from week to week, we weren't doing what we intended to do and what we wanted to do. And that's also a learning curve of not just your quarterback, of a group of guys coming together, a new group of guys in learning a new offense. I think that there were only three guys that started in the year before, in a completely different offense, so it's very tough. And I think we will be at a little bit of advantage going forward with a lot of guys understanding.

crazyhorse1 wrote:

We lost because our players were not as good as players on other teams, pure and simple. The OL and DL we had last year were atrocious, almost man for man worse than the men they were facing. I think the only real hope for this season is for Danny to bring out his wallet and hit the FA market hard. Last year's austery program didn't work, obviously, and suceeded only in saving bucks and putting a sub par team on the field.

What free agent O linemen and D linemen were we supposed to sign last year? Flozell? Faneca (who retired this year). The smart thing was to hold the check book until this year when the pool would be much larger and talented. We did the smart thing. And since we weren't going to improve the O line and D line in free agency, we might as well change the defensive scheme since that is the scheme Shanny wanted. We weren't going to win much past 8-8 last year with the 4-3, so we might as well prepared for the long run which we did. Yet we managed to stay competitive while installing new offense and defense. I don't recall the Texans, Lions, Rams, Buccaneers, Vikings, Colts, Cowboys and last Giants losses showing that the other teams players were just better than us, pure and simple. In all those loses, we were a play, or two, from winning those games. We were leading in the Rams and Lions games late. We even beat the Eagles earlier, the team that squashed us on Monday night. We beat the Bears and Packers, the NFC conference finalists. Team ball is what wins most games not just superior talent. Arguably the two best QB's, Manning and Brady weren't even in the Super Bowl. It is about team. Our games proved that we were [color=yellow]not a good team [/color]not that everyone's players were better than ours, pure and simple.

I will agree with you that the D line play was atrocious and that is an area that we clearly lacked the talent needed to win the close games consistently. It was said that our starting D linemen were all back ups (Carriker was coming off a serious shoulder injury and his improvement showed that he will be better this year). Nose Tackle was a key position that didn't pan out the way Shanny planned. The other team's defensive players just better than us, pure and simple - Orakpo, Fletcher and Hall made the Pro Bowl. Landry was leading in votes at Safety before he got hurt. Not bad for a 31st ranked defense. Carter was a good DE with his hand in the dirt, but was out of position. No, the other team's players were not better, pure and simple. We lacked sufficient talent at the nose tackle and one end (Golston) positions, but again - our games showed that our team had issues last season all the way up to how Shanny chose to approach this season.

The O line started off bad and moved to an average level. I provided you with the statistics in an earlier post. They weren't the most talented but the they had many issues at the start of the season. There was an issue of learning a new scheme; finding, during the season, the right guys to fit the scheme (who can forget the rotating of guards); a talented rookie learning the game; and a former pro bowl guy who was recovering from injury. The O line, once it was set handled Titans and Buccaneers pretty well. They held their own against the Vikings front wall. This O line can use an upgrade especially at center especially with Grossman at QB. I don't expect a waive of O linement signings, though. Like I said even with our D and O lines, our team managed to stay competitive in every game but two. I am sure that Shany expected better play at NT out of Kemo, but 2010 was not the year to guarantee a play-off run for one season by paying big bucks for older guys or in a case like Kalos Dansby, passing on him because the money wasn't worth it when a good player like Rocky would do for the 2010 season.

ey's link:

http://www.xydo.com/toolbar/21371647-so ... ng_offense


2010 Free Agent Linemen. Which one should we have paid the bucks to sign. Check out the ages of the unrestricted guys.

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2010/fa/ol.html

[SkinsJock]

the thread is about the level of confidence with Beck or Grossman as our QB this season

We are not going to be a consistently competitive team until we get our offensive and defensive lines to play together better - until then it really doesn't matter that neither Beck or Grossman is a very good QB

Fact is, we need a QB here that can help the next great Redskin QB get ready to play AND ALSO be the back up QB

Beck or Grossman IMO are not that QB

[CanesSkins26]

Our games proved that we were not a good team not that everyone's players were better than ours, pure and simple.

I disagree. You look at last year's team and it is clear that there was a significant lack of talent, and, in particular, speed. Sure, year two in s scheme will help somewhat, but the main problem is lack of talent at key positions all throughout the roster. It's going to take a while to build our roster.

[Red_One43]

Our games proved that we were not a good team not that everyone's players were better than ours, pure and simple.

I disagree. You look at last year's team and it is clear that there was a significant lack of talent, and, in particular, speed. Sure, year two in s scheme will help somewhat, but the main problem is lack of talent at key positions all throughout the roster. It's going to take a while to build our roster.

I agree with you on lack of talent at key positions, but not a significant lack of talent throughout the roster.

Along with Hall, Fletcher, Orakpo and Landry. We had Rogers, Rocky, Albert, Golston, Doughty, Daniels, Zo, Jarmon, Carter, HB Blades, Chris Wilson, Westbrook, Horton, Barnes, Moore on our 2009 top 10 defense. These guys were not considered a significant lack of talent then, so they are not a significant talent now. What changed that led to a significant drop in our defensive rating? The scheme switch to the 3-4. And one very key ingredient in the 3-4 that we lacked was sufficient talent at NT and that lack of sufcient talent at NT had an effect on everybody's play. Most of these guys can and will make the adjustment to play the 3-4. One such guy is Rocky, who the media says is a 4-3 OLB. Was his presence at the player's workouts a statement that says he has accepted his role as a 3-4 ILB?

Talent only gets you so far - See the Dallas Cowboys. Execution is a major part of a championship team. Depth is another - See Green Bay Packers. Having significant talent at key positions is another - See Colts, Pats and Steelers. Rest assured that Shanny is looking for these guys and be assured that he isn't just going throw money at these guys. He is going to get the guys that fit and are team players, an example being Atogwe.

The consistant winners in pro football have a core of high motor, work ethic guys. See Steelers, Colts and Pats, again. They let the highly talented divas who ask for high priced contracts go and only pay the studs at key positions the big bucks. Shanny has already begun building the core of this team. Core guys are not the most talented at their positins, but the ones who will play their hearts out on every play for the team and have enough talent to hold their own. While the other teams were trying to throw the big bucks at superstars, the Pats, Colts, and Steelers were winning each year. The Packers who are letting good talented players test the market this year, now have seen the light.

How does this relate to Grossman's or Beck's success. Flacco didn't get to the play offs each of his two years with great offensive play. The Ravens also had a very good defense to help him out. Cutler also needed a defense to get him in the Champinship game. Grossman will need a strong D that forces turnovers to give him that short field and win games.

I look for Shanny to pick up 1-2 talented proven O lineman in Free agency. A guard and/or a tackle. I think our next center is already on our roster. A running game and protection are a must for Grossman or Beck to be success. Those concepts start with the O -line. Yes, our O line needs to be better than average next year.

[VetSkinsFan]

Our games proved that we were not a good team not that everyone's players were better than ours, pure and simple.

I disagree. You look at last year's team and it is clear that there was a significant lack of talent, and, in particular, speed. Sure, year two in s scheme will help somewhat, but the main problem is lack of talent at key positions all throughout the roster. It's going to take a while to build our roster.

Wouldn't that be rather obvious in year 1 of changing offensive and defensive schemes? There is a lot of turnover and the talent to run the 4-3 is different than the talent needed to run 3-4. I believe this subject has been beaten to death.

The offense was just lacking in general IMO. I got nothin for that.

[CanesSkins26]

Along with Hall, Fletcher, Orakpo and Landry. We had Rogers, Rocky, Albert, Golston, Doughty, Daniels, Zo, Jarmon, Carter, HB Blades, Chris Wilson, Westbrook, Horton, Barnes, Moore on our 2009 top 10 defense.

Landry has yet to actually live up to his full potential. For all the hype he gets for some of his big hits, he can't cover, commits too many stupid penalties, and misses too many routine plays.

Albert - hasn't done anything here.

Golston is average at best, Doughty is a bench player, Daniels is over-the-hill, Zo doesn't have a real position, Jarmon hasn't done anything, Carter doesn't fit the defense and will be gone, Wilson is a role player, Blades has never been a full-time starter, Westbrook is a back up, and Hornton/Barnes/Moore wouldn't start on most teams.

In all honesty, the only players that we have on D that are consistent, top-level players are Orakpo and Fletcher. Pretty much everyone else is replaceable.

[Red_One43]

Our games proved that we were not a good team not that everyone's players were better than ours, pure and simple.

I disagree. You look at last year's team and it is clear that there was a significant lack of talent, and, in particular, speed. Sure, year two in s scheme will help somewhat, but the main problem is lack of talent at key positions all throughout the roster. It's going to take a while to build our roster.

Wouldn't that be rather obvious in year 1 of changing offensive and defensive schemes? There is a lot of turnover and the talent to run the 4-3 is different than the talent needed to run 3-4. I believe this subject has been beaten to death.

The offense was just lacking in general IMO. I got nothin for that.

I have to agree with your "the talent to run the 4-3 is different than the talent needed to run 3-4." We definitely need to get more guys who fit the scheme like Cullen Jenkins but they have to be "team first" guys as well."

Subject beaten to death? Aw shucks! I am just having fun and high anxiety as the rollercoaster reports roll in about the possible agreement this week.

Offense definitely is definitely lacking overall when compared to the D. I here you on that.

It seems like there is a consensus that it will take at least another
offeason of drafting and free agency to get us ready to compete for a play off run. My point is we have enough scheme talent to improve and play competative ball this year with Beck or Grossman at QB. My biggest selling point is look at the last three games, especially the last two when we sent reserves to play against two play off hungry teams. The Dallas game, the shuffling of the roster hurt us early, but these guys pulled it together especially the special special teamers who were atrocious early on on punt coverage. Nobody has yet to explain how reserves put in such a strong showing against mostly regulars who had every incentive to win (Giants and Jaguars - play-off; Dallas playing an arch rival at home) if our roster was so bad across the board. If one says, they were fighting for their jobs so they were playing at a high level then that supports my point that it is execution and high motor that can trump talent. See George Allen's "Over The Hill Gang." We all know Shanny is not going to let the roster sit as it is, so we can anticipate him adding his guys to that mix that we saw at the end of the season with Grossman as QB and YES there will be an upgrade in talent for the guys that Shanny signs for free agency. We aren't expected to win a championship with Grossman at QB, but all is not lost either and with key upgrades, we might even surprise a lot of folks.

[Red_One43]

Along with Hall, Fletcher, Orakpo and Landry. We had Rogers, Rocky, Albert, Golston, Doughty, Daniels, Zo, Jarmon, Carter, HB Blades, Chris Wilson, Westbrook, Horton, Barnes, Moore on our 2009 top 10 defense.

Landry has yet to actually live up to his full potential. For all the hype he gets for some of his big hits, he can't cover, commits too many stupid penalties, and misses too many routine plays.

Albert - hasn't done anything here.

Golston is average at best, Doughty is a bench player, Daniels is over-the-hill, Zo doesn't have a real position, Jarmon hasn't done anything, Carter doesn't fit the defense and will be gone, Wilson is a role player, Blades has never been a full-time starter, Westbrook is a back up, and Hornton/Barnes/Moore wouldn't start on most teams.

In all honesty, the only players that we have on D that are consistent, top-level players are Orakpo and Fletcher. Pretty much everyone else is replaceable.

I believe that your argument is solid when you say that we have few top level players. I like your argument here and I agree with you that we need to upgrade the roster to make a championship run and as you said it will take awhile. - I define awhile as another off season.

My point is talent is not everything. The same guys that you listed above that aren't top level guys, pulled it together in a scheme that they fit and ranked in the top ten in defense and that was with an offense that had trouble scoring points. These guys knew their roles and they executed properly. They bent, as was Blatche's philosophy - don't give up the big play, but they seldom broke. Yes, with more talent, they may have been a dominating defense, but my point is, our season, this year, is not going to be another disasterous season because of the roster we have. My point, is knowing the schemes this year and a few free agent additions, a good high motor rookie class (who are not the most talented at their positions), a QB in tune with the OC, and the fact that this will be Shanny's team, we will see a team that is showing identityy and showing that we are headed in the right direction.

[SkinsJock]

.... It seems like there is a consensus that it will take at least another offeason of drafting & free agency to get us ready to compete for a play off run

I think we'll be competitive - I'm looking to be consistently better and I think we'll see that in 2012

.... We all know Shanny is not going to let the roster sit as it is, so we can anticipate him adding his guys to that mix that we saw at the end of the season with Grossman as QB and YES there will be an upgrade in talent for the guys that Shanny signs for free agency. We aren't expected to win a championship with Grossman at QB, but all is not lost either and with key upgrades, we might even surprise a lot of folks.

We will continue to see this FO and the coaches play the guys that they feel are working hardest - gotta love it
most here know that players that play together and follow the game plan will always have a better chance at success than a team of VERY talented players not playing together - The NFL is made up of talented players - we seem to be more interested in players that play together and practice/play with attitude

I agree that we can still add some keys to our offense and defense but I still think we're looking at another season before we are consistently good each week

I also hope that either Beck is a lot improved and ready to start or the FO is bringing in a QB that can help here for a year and then help whomever we draft next year - I just don't think I want to watch Grossman play and be here for another couple of years

[CanesSkins26]

Nobody has yet to explain how reserves put in such a strong showing against mostly regulars who had every incentive to win (Giants and Jaguars - play-off; Dallas playing an arch rival at home) if our roster was so bad across the board.

A month before that the Giants beat us 31-7. Jacksonville lost three in a row to end their season.

[CanesSkins26]

Yes, with more talent, they may have been a dominating defense, but my point is, our season, this year, is not going to be another disasterous season because of the roster we have.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, because I don't see our 2011 season going too much better than last season did.

[langleyparkjoe]

Yes, with more talent, they may have been a dominating defense, but my point is, our season, this year, is not going to be another disasterous season because of the roster we have.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, because I don't see our 2011 season going too much better than last season did.

SUPERBOWL !

[Red_One43]

Nobody has yet to explain how reserves put in such a strong showing against mostly regulars who had every incentive to win (Giants and Jaguars - play-off; Dallas playing an arch rival at home) if our roster was so bad across the board.

A month before that the Giants beat us 31-7. Jacksonville lost three in a row to end their season.

Canes, it wasn't until the Jag's last three games of the season did they lose three in a row and we were one of the teams that beat them. Coming into our game, the Jags had won 2 of their last three. The game they lost was to the Colts on the Colt's home field which was a division game. Their record was 8-6 coming into the game with us. Even a loss to us didn't mathematically eliminate them from the play-offs. Yes, the Jags were in very much in contention for the play-offs when we played them.

Our less talented guys beat the Jags on their home turf in a game that meant something to the Jags. The only explanation that I can come up with is that the Skin's players played at a higher level than the Jags. To me, if Shanny can do that with those guys then imagine what he can do with those guys who return and a few added talent upgrades especially at key spots like NT. I am still with you that only by adding some more talented players will we be a team ready to compete for a Super Bowl. Next year is still a growth year, but I think that we will surprise folks how much we have grown.

Jags 2010 record from NFL.com

Regular Season OpponentsDate Opponent Location Time TV/Result
Sep. 12 Denver Broncos EverBank Field 1:00 p.m. W 24-17
Sep. 19 San Diego Chargers Qualcomm Stadium 4:15 p.m. L 13-38
Sep. 26 Philadelphia Eagles EverBank Field 4:05 p.m. L 3-28 Oct. 3 Indianapolis Colts EverBank Field 4:05 p.m. W 31-28
Oct. 10 Buffalo Bills Ralph Wilson Stadium 1:00 p.m. W 36-26
Oct. 18 Tennessee Titans EverBank Field 8:30 p.m. L 3-30
Oct. 24 Kansas City Chiefs Arrowhead Stadium 1:00 p.m. L 42-20
Oct. 31 Dallas Cowboys Cowboys Stadium 1:00 p.m. W 35-17
Nov. 7 BYE WEEK
Nov. 14 Houston Texans EverBank Field 1:00 p.m. W 31-24
Nov. 21 Cleveland Browns EverBank Field 1:00 p.m. W 24-20
Nov. 28 New York Giants New Meadowlands Stadium 1:00 p.m. L 24-20 Dec. 5 Tennessee Titans LP Field 1:00 p.m. W 17-6
Dec. 12 Oakland Raiders EverBank Field 1:00 p.m. W 38-31
Dec. 19 Indianapolis Colts Lucas Oil Stadium 1:00 p.m. L 24-34
Dec. 26 Washington Redskins EverBank Field 1:00 p.m. L 20-17 (OT)
Jan. 2 Houston Texans Reliant Stadium 4:15 p.m. L 34-17

http://www.jaguars.com/gameday/2010Schedule.aspx

[Red_One43]

Yes, with more talent, they may have been a dominating defense, but my point is, our season, this year, is not going to be another disasterous season because of the roster we have.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, because I don't see our 2011 season going too much better than last season did.

Agreed; however, I enjoyed the discussion. Let's hope for an ending of the lockout this weekend or sooner.

[Red_One43]

Yes, with more talent, they may have been a dominating defense, but my point is, our season, this year, is not going to be another disasterous season because of the roster we have.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, because I don't see our 2011 season going too much better than last season did.

SUPERBOWL !

Now, that's a positive, nothing's imposssible attitude, if I ever saw one.

[langleyparkjoe]

Yes, with more talent, they may have been a dominating defense, but my point is, our season, this year, is not going to be another disasterous season because of the roster we have.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, because I don't see our 2011 season going too much better than last season did.

SUPERBOWL !

Now, that's a positive, nothing's imposssible attitude, if I ever saw one.

For years I've been getting dog'd for it but my fellow THN'ers have come around.. they expect me to say SB every summer.

Hey, the ultimate goal is to win a SB right? So that's my expectation every year.. 1 Winner, 31 Losers my friend.

[CanesSkins26]

Nobody has yet to explain how reserves put in such a strong showing against mostly regulars who had every incentive to win (Giants and Jaguars - play-off; Dallas playing an arch rival at home) if our roster was so bad across the board.

A month before that the Giants beat us 31-7. Jacksonville lost three in a row to end their season.

Canes, it wasn't until the Jag's last three games of the season did they lose three in a row and we were one of the teams that beat them. Coming into our game, the Jags had won 2 of their last three. The game they lost was to the Colts on the Colt's home field which was a division game. Their record was 8-6 coming into the game with us. Even a loss to us didn't mathematically eliminate them from the play-offs. Yes, the Jags were in very much in contention for the play-offs when we played them.

Our less talented guys beat the Jags on their home turf in a game that meant something to the Jags. The only explanation that I can come up with is that the Skin's players played at a higher level than the Jags. To me, if Shanny can do that with those guys then imagine what he can do with those guys who return and a few added talent upgrades especially at key spots like NT. I am still with you that only by adding some more talented players will we be a team ready to compete for a Super Bowl. Next year is still a growth year, but I think that we will surprise folks how much we have grown.

Jags 2010 record from NFL.com

Regular Season OpponentsDate Opponent Location Time TV/Result
Sep. 12 Denver Broncos EverBank Field 1:00 p.m. W 24-17
Sep. 19 San Diego Chargers Qualcomm Stadium 4:15 p.m. L 13-38
Sep. 26 Philadelphia Eagles EverBank Field 4:05 p.m. L 3-28 Oct. 3 Indianapolis Colts EverBank Field 4:05 p.m. W 31-28
Oct. 10 Buffalo Bills Ralph Wilson Stadium 1:00 p.m. W 36-26
Oct. 18 Tennessee Titans EverBank Field 8:30 p.m. L 3-30
Oct. 24 Kansas City Chiefs Arrowhead Stadium 1:00 p.m. L 42-20
Oct. 31 Dallas Cowboys Cowboys Stadium 1:00 p.m. W 35-17
Nov. 7 BYE WEEK
Nov. 14 Houston Texans EverBank Field 1:00 p.m. W 31-24
Nov. 21 Cleveland Browns EverBank Field 1:00 p.m. W 24-20
Nov. 28 New York Giants New Meadowlands Stadium 1:00 p.m. L 24-20 Dec. 5 Tennessee Titans LP Field 1:00 p.m. W 17-6
Dec. 12 Oakland Raiders EverBank Field 1:00 p.m. W 38-31
Dec. 19 Indianapolis Colts Lucas Oil Stadium 1:00 p.m. L 24-34
Dec. 26 Washington Redskins EverBank Field 1:00 p.m. L 20-17 (OT)
Jan. 2 Houston Texans Reliant Stadium 4:15 p.m. L 34-17

http://www.jaguars.com/gameday/2010Schedule.aspx

We beat an 8-8 team that lost 4 out of its last 5 games. That really isn't much of an accomplishment. I understand what you are saying about beating a team with playoffs on the line, but the Jags were struggling at the end of the year. And you can look throughout the league and find bad teams beating good teams, especially late in the year. Take the Bengals. With a playoff spot on the line for the Chargers, the Bengals beat them by two td's and then played the Ravens tough to end the season.

[1niksder]

Yes, with more talent, they may have been a dominating defense, but my point is, our season, this year, is not going to be another disasterous season because of the roster we have.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, because I don't see our 2011 season going too much better than last season did.

This season is the second season of a new regime, they came in with new schemes on both sides of the ball, they did what they could in a uncapped year with limited free agents. In year one they had high roster turnover and dropped the average age to around the league average after being the leagues oldest team, they picked up 12 players in a draft that they went into with no 3rd and 4th round picks, (they did the same thing last year with limited picks). They have added youth with talent instead of players that were talented in their youth for the past two years. These young players are what you call "coachable" not like what they had in the past. McNabb wasn't willing to be coached although not on the same level as Haynesworth but the both will be employed elsewhere after Shanny's first year. One was already here and one was brought in but they both refused to do as their coaches wanted. They are both former pro bowler that were dealt with, and those young guys that were signed last year learned what happens when they do something other than what the scheme calls for... they'll past this info on to the new new guys and that's how you build a environment of professionalism.

Last year was a year with guys that had talent but didn't have the talent to fit the scheme and guy and guys that filled holes in the first year. Year two has to show a improvement, because ShanAllen knew what they were getting into when they took "the Danny's" money. It's a pretty good bet that a 6-10 / 7-9 year two will pretty much shut down any possibility of a year 3.

[Red_One43]

Nobody has yet to explain how reserves put in such a strong showing against mostly regulars who had every incentive to win (Giants and Jaguars - play-off; Dallas playing an arch rival at home) if our roster was so bad across the board.

A month before that the Giants beat us 31-7. Jacksonville lost three in a row to end their season.

Canes, it wasn't until the Jag's last three games of the season did they lose three in a row and we were one of the teams that beat them. Coming into our game, the Jags had won 2 of their last three. The game they lost was to the Colts on the Colt's home field which was a division game. Their record was 8-6 coming into the game with us. Even a loss to us didn't mathematically eliminate them from the play-offs. Yes, the Jags were in very much in contention for the play-offs when we played them.

Our less talented guys beat the Jags on their home turf in a game that meant something to the Jags. The only explanation that I can come up with is that the Skin's players played at a higher level than the Jags. To me, if Shanny can do that with those guys then imagine what he can do with those guys who return and a few added talent upgrades especially at key spots like NT. I am still with you that only by adding some more talented players will we be a team ready to compete for a Super Bowl. Next year is still a growth year, but I think that we will surprise folks how much we have grown.

Jags 2010 record from NFL.com

Regular Season OpponentsDate Opponent Location Time TV/Result
Sep. 12 Denver Broncos EverBank Field 1:00 p.m. W 24-17
Sep. 19 San Diego Chargers Qualcomm Stadium 4:15 p.m. L 13-38
Sep. 26 Philadelphia Eagles EverBank Field 4:05 p.m. L 3-28 Oct. 3 Indianapolis Colts EverBank Field 4:05 p.m. W 31-28
Oct. 10 Buffalo Bills Ralph Wilson Stadium 1:00 p.m. W 36-26
Oct. 18 Tennessee Titans EverBank Field 8:30 p.m. L 3-30
Oct. 24 Kansas City Chiefs Arrowhead Stadium 1:00 p.m. L 42-20
Oct. 31 Dallas Cowboys Cowboys Stadium 1:00 p.m. W 35-17
Nov. 7 BYE WEEK
Nov. 14 Houston Texans EverBank Field 1:00 p.m. W 31-24
Nov. 21 Cleveland Browns EverBank Field 1:00 p.m. W 24-20
Nov. 28 New York Giants New Meadowlands Stadium 1:00 p.m. L 24-20 Dec. 5 Tennessee Titans LP Field 1:00 p.m. W 17-6
Dec. 12 Oakland Raiders EverBank Field 1:00 p.m. W 38-31
Dec. 19 Indianapolis Colts Lucas Oil Stadium 1:00 p.m. L 24-34
Dec. 26 Washington Redskins EverBank Field 1:00 p.m. L 20-17 (OT)
Jan. 2 Houston Texans Reliant Stadium 4:15 p.m. L 34-17

http://www.jaguars.com/gameday/2010Schedule.aspx

We beat an 8-8 team that lost 4 out of its last 5 games. That really isn't much of an accomplishment. I understand what you are saying about beating a team with playoffs on the line, but the Jags were struggling at the end of the year. And you can look throughout the league and find bad teams beating good teams, especially late in the year. Take the Bengals. With a playoff spot on the line for the Chargers, the Bengals beat them by two td's and then played the Ravens tough to end the season.

You pointed out that there are bad teams that beat good teams at the end of the year, but how many of those teams announced that they were going to evaluate their players and play reserves in the last three games? If you remember, this caused quite a stir at NFL Network. They accused Shanny of tanking the rest of the season for draft position. Mike Lombardi wrote that Shanny tanks games. There was no tanking in these three games.

My point is - we did it with reserves and that the play of these reserves was often better than the more talented man in front of them. The issue is not really whether we won or lost, but our players showing an identity and showing that they wanted to play and win. They had just lost a heartbreaker the previous week to the archrival Cowboys, they could have easily quit after that game, but they didn't just like they didn't quit against the Cowboys.

I don't know what Shanny did at the half of the 2nd Dallas game (we know he didn't put all of the starters back in), but the Skins stopped making the mistakes of inexperienced players and came back from 20 points down with 9 minutes left in the 3rd quarter. Santana makes that catch maybe that's a win. That was against an arch rival on it's home field. We have seen Dallas come back from that far against us, but name the last time we did that and we did it with reserves. It was un up hill battle all the way because Dallas gave us nothing. No turnovers from Dallas - not a one. That is usually how a team gets back in the game. With a short field, the D kept holding Dallas to mostly FGs which was a key factor in the comeback.


The final game against the Giants was the best performance we had against them since beating them in 2007. Once again, my point is these were reserves playing against an even better team than the Jags or Cowboys who had even more to gain then the Jags because if they went the play-off they would have played the Bears - a team they had beaten earlier in the season. We didn't win this game, but check this out, we actually statistically outplayed the Giants and if you saw the game, you know that we had their backs against the wall the enitre second half minus the 90 yd bomb Hall game up. Don't forget our friend Gano missed a chip shot FG again. My point is not to say we scored a moral victory - my point is to say our reserves, as a team, played better than our season starters did in the first Giant's game when we failed to come out in the first half of that game. As a matter of fact, this game statistically and the tone was one of our better games of the season. Again with reserves.

Work ethic, more often than not, determines whether you in or lose. People say that a lot of these guys might not be on the team. What does that got to do with work ethic showing winning games? It doesn't matter who is on the team, if the all players coming in have a strong work ethic, the Skins will be better team. Gibbs built his teams with Plan B free agents - coveting work ethic guys is nothing new. George Allen to an old bunch of guys who played well beyond their talent.

D Hall said that Shanny wants 53 work ethic guys on this team. Those last three a games gave you a glimpse of what work ethic reserves could do, so imagine next year's team with 53 high motor, strong work ethic guys who by into their coaches system will do next year. Then sprinkle that with a few high motor free agant upgrades and throw in a undrafted rookie camp surprise and you already have a better team than last year. Oh, don't forget to subtract the ones who don't buy in that were distractions last year.


Do the players want to play for Shanahan? Clinton said he did. Santana says he does. If a respectable guy like Santana says he does even when they let him test the free agent market - that say it all.

[Red_One43]

Yes, with more talent, they may have been a dominating defense, but my point is, our season, this year, is not going to be another disasterous season because of the roster we have.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, because I don't see our 2011 season going too much better than last season did.

SUPERBOWL !

Now, that's a positive, nothing's imposssible attitude, if I ever saw one.

For years I've been getting dog'd for it but my fellow THN'ers have come around.. they expect me to say SB every summer.

Hey, the ultimate goal is to win a SB right? So that's my expectation every year.. 1 Winner, 31 Losers my friend.

You play to win the game. Hello? You play to win the game. You don't play it to just play it. That's the great thing about sports: you play to win, and I don't care if you don't have any wins. You go play to win. When you start tellin' me it doesn't matter, then retire. Get out! 'Cause it matters."

-- Coach Herman Edwards

Bucs go from 3-13 to 10 - 6 SURPRISE! Who saw that!
Redskins go from 6 -10 to 13- 3 in the Super Bowl? - Nothing's impossible! "Don't Stop Believing!"

[SkinsJock]

It's a little after 6pm and I was just listening to former QB Jim Miller on Sirius - in his words - "with Snyder's money and Allen and Shanahan running things, I'm certainly not going to be surprised if the Redskins don't do well and surprise a lot of people this year ... "

Miller feels that it's not out of the realm of possibility that MacNabb wants to play here and will do what it takes to be the starter
He says that would be the best scenario at QB for the Redskins

He likes both the RB out of Nebraska (Helu??) and the WR from Miami (Hankerson) - He thinks we may have found a NT, and would not be surprised if we did not make a big effort to keep as many of our own free agents as possible and maybe add some more key components



I'll be honest .. Miller had me thinking we just might be a lot better than I thought THIS YEAR

I know we've been a bad franchise as far as pre season expectations go - BUT ... NOT with these 2 in charge

6 wins to 9 or 10 wins is pretty big to me