The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Armstrong, Anthony: STAYS (#1 receiver)

Austin, Terrence: ? don't know

Banks, Brandon: ? don't know

Johnson, Taurus: GONE(Like price, can't keep a guy who's never caught a pass)

Kelly, Malcolm: GONE (can't stay healthy)

Moss, Santana: STAYS (#3), but shops himself around then comes back at a reasonable price

Price, Maurice: GONE (cant keep a guy who's never caught an NFL pass)

Williams, Roydell : GONE (Don't know how he's still in the NFL)

Hankerson, Leonard: STAYS (#2 receiver)

Paul, Niles: STAYS

Robinson, Aldrick: STAYS

The big question for me is how many WR do they keep? If they keep 6, then I think B.B. is the one. But if they keep 7, then T.A. makes the team.

With the onset of this new K.O. rule, the return man is almost obsolete. As much as we may like a particular return guy who doubles as a WR, you need to look at his productivity as a WR, not as a return guy. We need to keep roster spots open for guys who can contribute on "O". For years the "O" has suffered & that needs to change. We must have guys that go up & get the ball, especially now with the uncertainty at QB. Who's ever under center has to have confidence that he can throw a less than perfect pass & still have his WR jump up & make the tough catch. Not so sure that the smaller guys can do that.

Red_One43 wrote:
And your point is? "Great" is a subjective word. It can be used in different ways.

And it should have been used in a different way, you don't become a great anything in one season

Red_One43 wrote: In terms of value to the team, I would say that Banks had a great season for the Redskins. Rankings alone do not determine a player's greatness. Why would you even mention that Banks ranked 27th if you know that several "greats" like Connolly and Webb out ranked him on KO returns, but don't qualify?

Because according the NFL.com that's were he ranks, Connolly and Webb both were higher but I disqualified them.

I'm not debating his greatness... no debate there

Red_One43 wrote:Why mention that Devin Thomas was three points higher than Banks in Pre-season nKO returns? Most fans and certainly the coach, Shanny, would prefer Banks over Thomas any day.

Thomas stats were from the regular season Shanny went with at least a few times over Banks or Thomas wouldn't have had any returns so you might want to any day to some days

Red_One43 wrote: Check me if I am wrong, but CH! said that Banks was a great returner. That includes punts. During the pre season Banks took one to the house. And Devin Thomas too a KO to the house? Not. Ability to score is a big factor in a coaches mind when it comes to deciding on a returner. Banks has that ability when he touches the ball.

How many times did he touch the ball? How many TDs did he score?

Red_One43 wrote:Yes, keep in mind that the discussion is whether or not someone with kick return skills and can play wide receiver will take Banks' slot. Your "facts" or rather stats proved nothing and since "great" is an opinion word, you didn't prove CH1 wrong either.

And that my friend is simply your opinion. My stats are facts, You and ch1 can think what you want about his greatness. If he so great he'll have a job this year but like he says there is always professional track.

Red_One43 wrote:Fact is you still haven't addressed the fact that Shanny has proven that he will keep Banks over a bigger guy that who can play wideout and return kicks, Austin.

Did he keep one over the other or did he keep both? another non fact that you're calling a fact. The fact is Banks was cut to make room on the roster for Ryan Torain during the season. I got my facts you might want to check yours

Red_One43 wrote:That fsct does add to the discussion because if there is a guy Shanny keeps over Banks, we can be assured that that guy is darrn good all around and I could live with that.

That's why the thread was started, some seem to think that it's a bash and defend Banks thread. I like Banks but if he losses his job to someone that can contribute more I'll get over Banks not being here. Some here will scream and pull their hair out if Banks isn't here

Red_One43 wrote: Fact is you have decided not to take in account Shanny's own words that Banks was injured so he didn't use him more at wide receiver.

The fact is you have no idea what I take into account unless I tell, because it's not mentioned may not mean it wasn't considered. You seem to get confused with facts and speculations I take what Shanny says with a grain of salt, Austin got his playing time in games that Banks returned kicks in.

1niksder - You are trying to make stats support your low opinion of Banks. They don't. It's clear that Banks was 9th in PR Average and 12th in KOR Average despite having 46 returns and other players having in the 20's.

No other WR who was that productive in KR an PR caught ANY passes. What player do you know of who produces as a WR, KR, & PR to the level you expect??? We'll wait.

Marc Mariani made the Pro Bowl as a returner last year. He didn't catch a single pass. I guess TEN should cut him too.

This thread reminds me ...


1. It is the darn OFFSEASON

and, worse,

2. It is an OFFSEASON in the middle of a LOCKOUT with NOTHING to report!

What should the poor NFL fans do?

Invent controversies and debate for the sake of taking their football FIX?

Sure, why not? Some of you seem even passionate about it. We are addicted. Lets face it.

Anybody for opening a chapter of NFL Fans Anonymous?

Hello, my name is RiC and I am addicted.

The Hogster wrote:1niksder - You are trying to make stats support your low opinion of Banks. They don't. It's clear that Banks was 9th in PR Average and 12th in KOR Average despite having 46 returns and other players having in the 20's.

First of all I don't have a low opinion of Banks, in case you forgot we had Randle El before we had Banks. That kind of makes Banks a godsend.

Show me where I state I have a low opinion of Banks. He's one of the few Redskins that could be proud of their 2010 season

You and others can assume what you want, but again the thread is about who stays and who goes, after the Redskins picked up three new WR and two RB most with return skills.

The Hogster wrote:No other WR who was that productive in KR an PR caught ANY passes. What player do you know of who produces as a WR, KR, & PR to the level you expect??? We'll wait.

That brings us back to the topic of Banks.... will he retain his spot if there is a player that can do what he does and also do other things.

I stand by my opinion that if they have drafted a player that can return kicks and contribute in other ways (play on coverage teams, or even catch a pass or two) Banks will be gone. If they have drafted guys that can return kicks but can't get on the field as a wideout (like Banks) then Banks will still be wearing B&G.

It does no good to state I feel a certain way if I didn't say that's how I feel. Just makes it seem like you can't read or can't comprehend what you are reading.

1niksder wrote:
He's purely one dimensional and doesn't add much to the passing game.... I just don't think he adds enough and, as someone said yesterday, he's purely an optical illusion.

That sounds like a low opinion of him to me.

1 niksder wrote: I stand by my opinion that if they have drafted a player that can return kicks and contribute in other ways (play on coverage teams, or even catch a pass or two) Banks will be gone.

Good for you. Back to the question regarding Banks. What do you mean "contribute" in other ways? I take your quip "catch a pass or two" to mean nothing since Banks caught 2 passes.

Do you mean simply that the guy can return kicks and start at WR? Randel El. Or Return Kicks and simply catch a couple of passes here or there? James Thrash. Or return kickoffs and play 4th string running back? Rock Cartwright.

1niksder wrote: will he retain his spot if there is a player that can do what he does and also do other things.

I pointed out that your expectations don't mesh with reality. Of the top kick returners who are Wide Receivers in the game, only three of them excell at both Kickoff Returns and Punt Returns. Banks, Mariani, and Logan. Banks caught more passes--TWO--than both of them COMBINED.

It seems like you have the idea that a kick returner must actually produce at a moderate to high level on offense or defense. But, that fact is aside from Devin Hester, nobody on the planet does that consistently. If your point is to say that if we drafted the next Devin Hester then Banks is gone...then Duh. But, there aren't guys like that out there. Even Hester returns Kickoffs sparingly. He only did it 12 times last year. Banks 46 returns.

BTW - I comprehend things that make sense just fine.

The Hogster wrote:

1niksder wrote:
He's purely one dimensional and doesn't add much to the passing game.... I just don't think he adds enough and, as someone said yesterday, he's purely an optical illusion.

That sounds like a low opinion of him to me.

It does but it's a link to a post that someone else wrote. Meaning that would be someone else's opinion. I said he is undersized and one dimensional in another post as a possible reason for the signing and drafting of 5 WR since the end of last season

The Hogster wrote:

1 niksder wrote: I stand by my opinion that if they have drafted a player that can return kicks and contribute in other ways (play on coverage teams, or even catch a pass or two) Banks will be gone.

Good for you. Back to the question regarding Banks. What do you mean "contribute" in other ways? Do you mean simply that the guy can return kicks and start at WR? Randel El. Or Return Kicks and simply catch a couple of passes here or there? James Thrash. Or return kickoffs and play 4th string running back? Rock Cartwright.

What do I mean in other ways is what you ask, although I listed playing on coverage teams or a pass or two. What was so hard to comprehend in that one statement that you had to ask the question.

The Hogster wrote:I pointed out that your expectations don't mesh with reality. Of the top kick returners who are Wide Receivers in the game, only three of them excell at both Kickoff Returns and Punt Returns. Banks, Mariani, and Logan. Banks caught more passes--TWO--than both of them COMBINED.

Where did you read my expectation of Banks, I didn't post any expectation for Banks, he did a good job last year. If everyone competing for his spot is like Logan and Mariani than BB has nothing to worry about.

The Hogster wrote:It seems like you have the idea that a kick returner must actually produce at a moderate to high level on offense or defense.

Show me where I said that anywhere on this site..... I wait

The Hogster wrote: But, that fact is aside from Devin Hester & Josh Cribbs, nobody on the planet does that consistently. If your point is to say that if we drafted the next Devin Hester then Banks is gone...then Duh. But, there aren't guys like that out there. Even Hester returns Kickoffs sparingly.

If my point is? What do you mean "IF", that's been my point for the last 4 pages.

The Hogster wrote:BTW - I comprehend things that make sense just fine.

You'll have to show me that before I'll believe it, because you haven't

Okay 1niksder - this is pointless. If we drafted the next Devin Hester, then Banks is gone. You are a genius.

You actually said contributing would be playing coverage and "catching a pass or two"...Banks caught exactly 2 passes. So either you're being sarcastic or you have no idea what you're talking about. I gave you the benefit of sarcasm by asking what you really meant, but apparently you meant it literally and are just wrong as usual. But yeah, I'm the one who has trouble communicating.

Whatever dude. Waste someone elses time tap dancing around your own opinions or a lack thereof.

The Hogster wrote:Okay 1niksder - this is pointless. If we drafted the next Devin Hester, then Banks is gone. You are a genius.

You actually said contributing would be playing coverage and "catching a pass or two"...Banks caught exactly 2 passes. So either you're being sarcastic or you have no idea what you're talking about. I gave you the benefit of sarcasm by asking what you really meant, but apparently you meant it literally and are just wrong as usual. But yeah, I'm the one who has trouble communicating.

Whatever dude. Waste someone elses time tap dancing around your own blather.

If you read what you are responding to you would have read that I pointed out the number of catches Banks had last year and Austin caught more. You asked what I meant about contributing after I gave a example. Now you say you thought I was being sarcastic.

I'm wrong as usual? That was sarcasm right?

The Hogster wrote:Whatever dude. Waste someone elses time tap dancing around your own opinions or a lack thereof.

Maybe if you had something to add to the discussion you wouldn't feel like I'm wasting your time.

No I'm not being sarcastic

1niksder wrote:

The Hogster wrote:Okay 1niksder - this is pointless. If we drafted the next Devin Hester, then Banks is gone. You are a genius.

You actually said contributing would be playing coverage and "catching a pass or two"...Banks caught exactly 2 passes. So either you're being sarcastic or you have no idea what you're talking about. I gave you the benefit of sarcasm by asking what you really meant, but apparently you meant it literally and are just wrong as usual. But yeah, I'm the one who has trouble communicating.

Whatever dude. Waste someone elses time tap dancing around your own blather.

If you read what you are responding to you would have read that I pointed out the number of catches Banks had last year and Austin caught more. You asked what I meant about contributing after I gave a example. Now you say you thought I was being sarcastic.

I'm wrong as usual? That was sarcasm right?

The Hogster wrote:Whatever dude. Waste someone elses time tap dancing around your own opinions or a lack thereof.

Maybe if you had something to add you the discussion wouldn't feel like I'm wasting your time.

No I'm not being sarcastic

I actually added a little something called the facts. The stats which show that Brandon Banks is the 9th ranked Punt Returner, and the 12th ranked Kickoff Returner in the NFL.

Facts also show that only TWO other players, Marc Mariani and Stefan Logan were able to make the TOP 10 in BOTH Kickoff & Punt Returns. Mariani made the Pro Bowl.

Facts also show that only TWO players better than Banks at BOTH Kickoff and Punt Returns and NEITHER one of them caught ONE PASS. They both had ZERO catches. BANKS HAD TWO.

I added facts to totally discredit your biased argument that Banks is ONE dimensional. In case you didn't know, Kickoffs and Punts are different. I know the ball leaves the foot on both plays, but they are different jobs. Banks is one of only 3 guys who produce in the TOP 12 at both. That's TWO dimensions if you haven't caught on yet.

Furthermore, I'm showing your statement that he doesn't do enough to be nothing more than your opinion which is not supported by the facts. The fact is when you are a focus of the offense, your production on teams will suffer and vice versa. Show me a guy that produces at WR, KR, and PR??? Hester is the closest, and he just happens to be one of if not THE best return man in NFL History. You're clogging up a lot of bandwidth if that's your point. BTW - the Sky is blue.

The Hogster wrote:
I actually added a little something called the facts. The stats which show that Brandon Banks is the 9th ranked Punt Returner, and the 12th ranked Kickoff Returner in the NFL.

Where did you get your stats that you call facts. NFL.com has the stats for 2010 that show your 9th ranked punt returner ranked 19th in punt returns and that 12th ranked kickoff returner is tied for 27th in kickoff returns.
So what you added was what you always add... NOTHING

The Hogster wrote:Facts also show that only TWO other players, Marc Mariani and Stefan Logan were able to make the TOP 10 in BOTH Kickoff & Punt Returns. Mariani made the Pro Bowl.

And what does that add to a discussion about weather or not Banks makes the Redskins roster? yep NOTHING

The Hogster wrote:Facts also show that only TWO players better than Banks at BOTH Kickoff and Punt Returns and NEITHER one of them caught ONE PASS. They both had ZERO catches. BANKS HAD TWO.

Again that was already pointed out. Again you added NOTHING

The Hogster wrote:I added facts to totally discredit your biased argument that Banks is ONE dimensional. In case you didn't know, Kickoffs and Punts are different. I know the ball leaves the foot on both plays, but they are different jobs.

The ball leaves the foot... that's a kick, the formations is different and the punter and kicker may be different but in both cases Banks is the return man, that's the one thing he does. It's a kick from the opposing team that he catches and runs with, it doesn't matter if it's on kickoff or a punt the ball is kicked.

The Hogster wrote: Banks is one of only 3 guys who produce in the TOP 12 at both. That's TWO dimensions if you haven't caught on yet.

Are there two separate links to look up Kickoff returns and Punt returns when you check stats on NFL.com?

Didn't think so.

The Hogster wrote:Furthermore, I'm showing your statement that he doesn't do enough to be nothing more than your opinion which is not supported by the facts.

Show me my statement that says I feel he doesn't do enough. I'll add this to the list of other things you attribute to me that were never said. The waiting time is almost unbearable.

The Hogster wrote: The fact is when you are a focus of the offense, your production on teams will suffer and vice versa. Show me a guy that produces at WR, KR, and PR??? Hester is the closest, and he just happens to be one of if not THE best return man in NFL History. You're clogging up a lot of bandwidth if that's your point. BTW - the Sky is blue.

Let me know when you actually have something/ANYTHING to add.

2011 Stats for Kickoff Returns Showing Banks is 12th in Return Avg

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/playe ... KickReturn

2011 Stats for Punt Returns Showing Banks is 9th in Return Avg

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/playe ... PuntReturn

Wow you're slow. You are using a stat sheet that is Un-Qualified. Unqualified means that it includes every player in the league who returned a kickoff or punt at all even when ranking by AVERAGES. It wouldn't be so ignorant if you weren't sorting by Kick Return Average. But, you apparently are. So, a player that had 1 return for 40 yards, will have a 40 yard avg and will be ranked higher than Banks and everyone else for that matter. Look at the QUALIFIED stats that track leaders based on averages, yardage, etc.

EVEN using YOUR source, Banks is Top 10. If you're going to rank him on an UN Qualified list, you need to SORT by YARDS so that a player that had 1 return for 60 yards, isn't above a player that had 50 returns for 1200 yards because his average is lower.

Banks is 10th in KOR Yards: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... ified=true

Banks is 3rd in Punt Return Yards: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... ified=true


It's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

That's as plain as day. I'm sure you will come up with some rude retort without accepting the egg on your face.

The Hogster wrote:2011 Stats for Kickoff Returns Showing Banks is 12th in Return Avg

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/playe ... KickReturn

2011 Stats for Punt Returns Showing Banks is 9th in Return Avg

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/playe ... PuntReturn

Wow you're slow. You are using a stat sheet that is Un-Qualified. Unqualified means that it includes every player in the league who returned a kickoff or punt at all even when ranking by AVERAGES. It wouldn't be so ignorant if you weren't sorting by Kick Return Average. But, you apparently are.

Apparently.... How many time did I not say averages? To get averages I would had to have sorted by, yep you got it.... AVERAGES. It took you long enough though

The Hogster wrote: So, a player that had 1 return for 40 yards, will have a 40 yard avg and will be ranked higher than Banks and everyone else for that matter. Look at the QUALIFIED stats that track leaders based on averages, yardage, etc.

You call me slow but you're just pointing out what I pointed 2 pages ago.

1niksder wrote:Banks was ranked 27th in the NFL (not even top 10 if you remove anyone with less than 10 returns) in average yards per KO return in 2010, and barely makes the top 20 of punt returners for 2010, at best he has played one season as a WR/KR. No one is great after one year, so you need to stick to the facts here.

In fact if we just stuck to the Redskins, some guy named Devin Thomas averaged almost 3 yards more per kickoff return than Banks did last season (he can't play WR and isn't a great KR either). Again the discussion is about weather or not he'll lose his job to someone that can do more than just return kicks.

The Hogster wrote:EVEN using YOUR source, Banks is Top 10. If you're going to rank him on an UN Qualified list, you need to SORT by YARDS so that a player that had 1 return for 60 yards, isn't above a player that had 50 returns for 1200 yards because his average is lower.

Why would I sort by yards when I'm talking about yards

The Hogster wrote:Banks is 10th in KOR Yards: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... ified=true

Banks is 3rd in Punt Return Yards: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... ified=true

Yards and average yards are not the same thing, how hard is that to understand. No one was talking about yards until you came along not knowing what you are talking about. All you had to do was read what was written and then comprehend it. You must be having trouble with one or the other if not both

The Hogster wrote:It's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

I was thinking the same thing.

I used the stats provided by the league that he plays in. You finally get to the right site and look at yards when we are talking about average yards per return.

Still waiting on you to add something to this discussion.

You go with your ESPN links I'll go with mine, but I need to know one thing.

If you wanted to know something about ESPN, do you go to NFL.com?

The Hogster wrote:That's as plain as day.

That you jumped into a conversation without knowing what was being discussed.

Dude quit. Lol. If you know that the average is off when including players like Connolly who had 1 return of a squib kick, why would you use admittedly wrong stats?? I even made it easy for you by posting the qualified list. I even tried to use your stats to show you how you are trying to ignore reality. Lol.

Whatever dude. To anyone who knows better, this is ridiculous.

So let's use your link. The facts are the same, if you are using averages, you have to know what an average is. Returning one kick for 60 yards doesn't mean you "average" 60 yards per kick. Someone explain this to this guy. Lol

The Hogster wrote:Dude quit. Lol. If you know that the average is off when including players like Connolly who had 1 return of a squib kick, why would you use admittedly wrong stats?? I even made it easy for you by posting the qualified list. I even tried to use your stats to show you how you are trying to ignore reality. Lol.

Whatever dude. To anyone who knows better, this is ridiculous.

What's ridiculous is coming in on the tail end of something and not adding anything to the conversation. You still haven offered any thing. If the stats were wrong than NFL.com would not have put them out there. ESPN alters the actual stats by removing players with less than some number that they come up with and you call it correct. Ridiculous isn't the word for it but it fits.

You need to know reality before you can show it to someone. The thread wasn't even about Banks, it was about all the WRs. Banks became the focus.


AND....YOU STILL HAVEN'T ADDED ANYTHING TO THIS DISCUSSION

The Hogster wrote:So let's use your link. The facts are the same, if you are using averages, you have to know what an average is. Returning one kick for 60 yards doesn't mean you "average" 60 yards per kick. Someone explain this to this guy. Lol

The Hogster wrote:This argument against Banks is just getting desperate. Even if you ignore the time he missed due to injury, let's look at this argument against him being "one dimensional" as a return man. Let's look at productivity as a WR of the league's top returners based on 1niksder's method.

Top Kickoff Returners Who are WR's With Higher KOR Average Than Banks

David Reed BAL 0 catches 0 yards 0 TD
Brad Smith NYJ 4 catches 44 yards 0 TD
Eric Weem ATL 6 catches 60 yards 0 TD
Stefan Logan DET 0 catches 0 yards 0 TD
Brandon Tate NE 24 cactches 432 yards 3 TD
Michael Spurlock TB 17 catches 250 yards 2TD
Marc Mariani TEN 0 catches 0 yards 0 TD
Eric Decker DEN 6 catches 106 yards 1 TD
Brandon Banks WAS 2 catches 10 yards 0 TD

Only 2 of the WRs who lead the league in KOR average caught more than 10 passes. Only 4 caught more than 5. Only 1, Brandon Tate, caught more than 20. And, Tate got elevated to start when the Pats traded Moss. ALSO, only 2 of these returners made the Top 10 in Punt Returns--Mariani & Logan BOTH of whom caught no passes as a WR

Top Punt Returners Who Are WR With Higher PR Avg Than Banks

Devin Hester 40 catches 475 yds 4 TD
Julian Edelman 7 catches 86 yards 0TD
Ted Ginn 12 catches 163 yards 1 TD
Marc Mariani 0 catcehs 0 yards 0 TD
Stefan Logan 0 catcches 0 yards 0 TD
Eddie Royal 59 catches 627 yards 0TD
Desean Jackson 47 catches 1,056 yards 6 TD
Davonne Bess 79 catches 820 yards 5 TD

The stats show that the only 2 Wide Receivers made the TOP 10 in BOTH Kickoff Returns & Punt Returns. NEITHER caught a single pass or gained a single yard as a WR. Brandon Banks is in the Top 10 as a PR Avg, and is 12th in KOR Average. AND he had over twice as many KO Returns--46--than two of the WR's with a higher average--David Reed & Eric Decker.

The guy is a special returner. To expect him to catch 25-30 balls for 500-900 yards while also maintaining his return production on Kickoffs & Punts, and giving us a legit scoring threat is unrealistic at best, and hating on him at worst. He is a return man and a very very good one. A rare one who can excel at Kickoffs & Punts. If you ask me, that's 2 dimensions.

Now these are meaningful stats add to the to the debate!

fanforlife wrote:With the onset of this new K.O. rule, the return man is almost obsolete. As much as we may like a particular return guy who doubles as a WR, you need to look at his productivity as a WR, not as a return guy. We need to keep roster spots open for guys who can contribute on "O". For years the "O" has suffered & that needs to change. We must have guys that go up & get the ball, especially now with the uncertainty at QB. Who's ever under center has to have confidence that he can throw a less than perfect pass & still have his WR jump up & make the tough catch. Not so sure that the smaller guys can do that.

Good point about the new return rules

Red_One43 wrote:

langleyparkjoe wrote:I'll only speak regarding Santana..

HE CAN PLAY ANY WR POSITION ON THE FIELD.. please just exclude him from whatever comparisons ya'll come up with for our WRs.. he's proven time and time again you can put him anywhere out there and good things happen.

That's all, carry-on.

He can return punts too.

That's right my homie, he sure can!

-Santana Moss fan 4 life-

1niksder wrote:

Red_One43 wrote:
And your point is? "Great" is a subjective word. It can be used in different ways.

And it should have been used in a different way, you don't become a great anything in one season

Red_One43 wrote: In terms of value to the team, I would say that Banks had a great season for the Redskins. Rankings alone do not determine a player's greatness. Why would you even mention that Banks ranked 27th if you know that several "greats" like Connolly and Webb out ranked him on KO returns, but don't qualify?

Because according the NFL.com that's were he ranks, Connolly and Webb both were higher but I disqualified them.

I'm not debating his greatness... no debate there

Red_One43 wrote:Why mention that Devin Thomas was three points higher than Banks in Pre-season nKO returns? Most fans and certainly the coach, Shanny, would prefer Banks over Thomas any day.

Thomas stats were from the regular season Shanny went with at least a few times over Banks or Thomas wouldn't have had any returns so you might want to any day to some days

Red_One43 wrote: Check me if I am wrong, but CH! said that Banks was a great returner. That includes punts. During the pre season Banks took one to the house. And Devin Thomas too a KO to the house? Not. Ability to score is a big factor in a coaches mind when it comes to deciding on a returner. Banks has that ability when he touches the ball.

How many times did he touch the ball? How many TDs did he score?

Red_One43 wrote:Yes, keep in mind that the discussion is whether or not someone with kick return skills and can play wide receiver will take Banks' slot. Your "facts" or rather stats proved nothing and since "great" is an opinion word, you didn't prove CH1 wrong either.

And that my friend is simply your opinion. My stats are facts, You and ch1 can think what you want about his greatness. If he so great he'll have a job this year but like he says there is always professional track.

Red_One43 wrote:Fact is you still haven't addressed the fact that Shanny has proven that he will keep Banks over a bigger guy that who can play wideout and return kicks, Austin.

Did he keep one over the other or did he keep both? another non fact that you're calling a fact. The fact is Banks was cut to make room on the roster for Ryan Torain during the season. I got my facts you might want to check yours

Red_One43 wrote:That fsct does add to the discussion because if there is a guy Shanny keeps over Banks, we can be assured that that guy is darrn good all around and I could live with that.

That's why the thread was started, some seem to think that it's a bash and defend Banks thread. I like Banks but if he losses his job to someone that can contribute more I'll get over Banks not being here. Some here will scream and pull their hair out if Banks isn't here

Red_One43 wrote: Fact is you have decided not to take in account Shanny's own words that Banks was injured so he didn't use him more at wide receiver.

The fact is you have no idea what I take into account unless I tell, because it's not mentioned may not mean it wasn't considered. You seem to get confused with facts and speculations I take what Shanny says with a grain of salt, Austin got his playing time in games that Banks returned kicks in.

Got me on this one. I forgot about the Devin returns were in the first few games and not preseason, but you know what made me forget about Thomas's few retrurns? Banks.

Once again, you fail to address the issue of Shanny keeping Banks on the opening day roster and Austin, a bigger WR and good return man was left off. Even when Banks was cut to make room for Torain, he was brought back and not Austin. I am not saying that Banks is automatically in, I am saying that Shanny has already told you something about what he likes in a returner/receiver.

One of the main talking points on this thread is, is Banks' job in jeopardy over a player that can be utilized more as WR and return kicks. In Austin, he is a good return man and a good WR for a 7th rounder. My point is it will take a player who is a better WR and better return man than Austin to beat Banks out. Can Paul, Robinson, or Austin be that guy? I don't think so, because none of them are a dangerous return guys - speed and insight. If either of them are dangerous return guys, Banks is gone, but how often do you see a guy with Banks' combination of speed and insighfulness? One other thing, remember, Shanny believes that he can coach anyone up. He can teach Banks to be a better WR, but he can't teach any guy speed and insighfulness.

On the note of you not mentioning Banks' injury - you put out there that Banks was the least productive WRs on the team as far as from scrimmage. I countered with he was hurt and that is a well documented fact that Shanny didn't ustilize him more as a receiver later in the season, so you point saying that he was least productive means nothing when all the facts are examined.

If we look at all the coaching behaviors and facts surrounding Banks, he is just another sophomore NFL player that needs to prove that he belongs this year. Sophomore players have an advantage over rookies - they have their rookie season to speak for themselves. It is odd that folks have to go to lengths to invent reasons to legitimize why they feel Banks is not worthy of returning to the team when all he did was do what Shanny asked. Give us a legitimate return threat and stop coughing up the ball. Banks did both and Shanny kept him. Invented reasons: one dimensional - No indication Shany believes this pure fan fantasy (check out Hogsters stats), too small - we heard all of that in pre-season and then Shanny sends the little guy into the teeth of the line on running plays, least productive wr - see injury statement and Hogster's stats, and finally we are pulling for the underdog - that is a crock of you know what - nobody on this site is going to pull for any kind of "dog" if he can't make plays - Banks makes plays.