The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Anyway, returning to the topic at hand, rather than debating the looney tunes thoughts of one single poster..........

.......I doubt that there will be a QB available to pick who is worthy of the number 10 spot in the draft. I don't mind seeing the Redskins take a QB in the first, but I'd be more comfortable with it if they traded down first. At least Andrew Luck's decision to stay in college should have removed any temptation to trade UP, so that's something to be thankful for.

UK Skins Fan wrote:.......I doubt that there will be a QB available to pick who is worthy of the number 10 spot in the draft. I don't mind seeing the Redskins take a QB in the first, but I'd be more comfortable with it if they traded down first. At least Andrew Luck's decision to stay in college should have removed any temptation to trade UP, so that's something to be thankful for.

You're compeltely right on the Luck comment about trading UP.

My question is..... Will there be ANYONE available at the #10 spot who plays a POSITION OF NEED and who is worth drafting there. I get the feeling there will not be. At least I don't see a NT, 3-4 DE or MLB, WR or QB who will be. I have NEVER been a proponent of the Best Player Available mindset.

Redskins_Fanatic wrote:You're compeltely right on the Luck comment about trading UP.

My question is..... Will there be ANYONE available at the #10 spot who plays a POSITION OF NEED and who is worth drafting there. I get the feeling there will not be. At least I don't see a NT, 3-4 DE or MLB, WR or QB who will be. I have NEVER been a proponent of the Best Player Available mindset.

Do we follow the same team? Because other than tight end every position is a position of need.

TCIYM wrote:Do we follow the same team? Because other than tight end every position is a position of need.

Ok. Let's go down the list....

QB: Top 2 QB's at least won't be there.... PASS (my opinion)
RB: Not a significant enough need to WASTE the #10 pick on
WR: Possible, IF there is a guy worth it who is there. I doubt it.
OT: No Top End RT's available in this year's draft
OG/C: Not a position that is even considered this high in the draft.
TE: Not a position of need, and wouldn't be considered this high.

PK/P: Do I really need to say anything on this?
KR/PR: Again, do I really need to say anything on this?

NT: No Top Flight NT prospects available in this year's draft
3-4 DE: Again, no Top Flight prospects available in this year's draft.
MLB: Again, no Top Flight prospects available in this year's draft.
OLB: Possibility, but only if Von Miller fits the system.
CB: Probably the only really serious consideration if we keep the pick.
S: Again, no Top Flight prospects available in this year's draft.


I would love to see where you think I'm wrong on this. Is CB really a significant enough need, and going to make a big enough immediate impact to spend the pick on? If we can't trade down, MAYBE. Otherwise, I don't see it as a big enough place to improve to be worth risking another Carlos Rogers fiasco on.

Redskins_Fanatic wrote:

TCIYM wrote:Do we follow the same team? Because other than tight end every position is a position of need.

Ok. Let's go down the list....

QB: Top 2 QB's at least won't be there.... PASS (my opinion)
RB: Not a significant enough need to WASTE the #10 pick on
WR: Possible, IF there is a guy worth it who is there. I doubt it.
OT: No Top End RT's available in this year's draft
OG/C: Not a position that is even considered this high in the draft.
TE: Not a position of need, and wouldn't be considered this high.

PK/P: Do I really need to say anything on this?
KR/PR: Again, do I really need to say anything on this?

NT: No Top Flight NT prospects available in this year's draft
3-4 DE: Again, no Top Flight prospects available in this year's draft.
MLB: Again, no Top Flight prospects available in this year's draft.
OLB: Possibility, but only if Von Miller fits the system.
CB: Probably the only really serious consideration if we keep the pick.
S: Again, no Top Flight prospects available in this year's draft.


I would love to see where you think I'm wrong on this. Is CB really a significant enough need, and going to make a big enough immediate impact to spend the pick on? If we can't trade down, MAYBE. Otherwise, I don't see it as a big enough place to improve to be worth risking another Carlos Rogers fiasco on.

I completely agree with your assessment of the positions, BUT there are of guys who I would argue are worth that #10 spot if available and FIT A POSITION OF NEED.

1. Marcel Dareus DT/DE - Had a pretty darn good yr as a DT, but I also saw many packages where he lined up as a DE. He could be a force in our 3-4 as a DE as he can rush the passer and it stout vs the run.

2. Akeem Ayers OLB - Every report I have read on this guy says he is the prototipical 3-4 OLB as he can rush the passer and is well above average in coverage.

3.Ryan Kerrigan OLB - Played DE at Purdue, but many project him as a 3-4 OLB in the NFL. At 6-4 260, he rushes the passer well and is very mobile, and has the necessary bulk needed to play 3-4 LB.

4. Von Miller OLB - You already mentioned him, but I agree he would be a good fit as a 3-4 OLB. He is a little undersized (6'4, 240) but makes up for it with athleticism and has the frame to add bulk.

5. Robert Quinn OLB - There are some character concerns as he was suspended all year from UNC this season, but if he had played most feel he would have been a top 5 pick. He is a passrushing specialist in the mold of Orakpo and at 6-5 270 is a MONSTER. Would not mind this guy opposite RAK at all.

6. Adrian Claiborne - Had a dissapointing year, but was a "cant miss" top 10 talent before the season started. Has the size and athleticism to play 3-4 DE at 6'3 290

These are 6 guys I would argue may be available at 10 who I would not mind us drafting. I have taken out obvious players who I feel will be gone (Green, Fairley, Bowers) I think these 6 guys fill a position of need and are worth a 10 pick, but obviously this is just my opinion. Just wanted to throw some other names out there

skins2357 wrote: I completely agree with your assessment of the positions, BUT there are of guys who I would argue are worth that #10 spot if available and FIT A POSITION OF NEED.

Ok. I'll run through my thoughts on these guys. Obviously you see OLB as a much greater position of need in the draft than I do. Personally I'd like to see that addressed in FREE AGENCY, but we can agree to disagree on that.

skins2357 wrote:1. Marcel Dareus DT/DE

Projects as a 4-3 DT everywhere that I've seen. We don't need any more guys who aren't PROTOTYPICAL 3-4 players.

skins2357 wrote:2. Akeem Ayers OLB

Not a bad option if OLB is really where we want to go. Probably a little bit of a stretch at #10 though. I see him ranked down in the mid-teens to upper 20's on the overall lists I've been looking at.

skins2357 wrote:3.Ryan Kerrigan OLB

Like Akers, not a bad option if we're looking OLB with the pick. Still maybe a bit of a stretch at #10 though.

skins2357 wrote:4. Von Miller OLB

Size issues. We've already got too many guys on this defense who are not prototypical 3-4 type players. We really don't need any more.

skins2357 wrote:5. Robert Quinn OLB

I've never been a believer in drafting a guy who already has off field issues, has been suspended, and is described as "RAW". I'm definitely not the least bit interested in doing it in the first round, with the #10 pick.

skins2357 wrote:6. Adrian Clayborn DE

Not necessarily a bad option if we're looking DE. Plays the run better than he rushes the pass though, from what I've seen and at #10 I'd like to get a guy who can do both for what we're going to pay him.

skins2357 wrote:These are 6 guys I would argue may be available at 10 who I would not mind us drafting. I have taken out obvious players who I feel will be gone (Green, Fairley, Bowers) I think these 6 guys fill a position of need and are worth a 10 pick, but obviously this is just my opinion. Just wanted to throw some other names out there

It's not a bad list. I'm not sure that I'd be really ecstatic to see any of them selected, and there are a couple I'd be disappointed in, but none of them are totally out of the realm of possibility; though more likely if we trade down a bit.

I was with you until you got to this part

Redskins_Fanatic wrote:Ok. I'll run through my thoughts...

At that point I lost interest as I didn't care what followed...

KazooSkinsFan wrote:At that point I lost interest as I didn't care what followed...

That's fine. Apparently finally something we both agree on.... neither one of us cares a whit about what the other one thinks or has to say on any topic. Good to know.

If we can't trade down and there's a QB that the coach likes and believes will fit our offense, who is a better value than other positions we need at #10, take him and move on.

TCIYM wrote:Only three coaches in the SuperBowl era have won without Hall Of Fame caliber QBs, Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcells, Tom Flores. None of those wins was after 1991. Teams need a franchise QB in the salary cap era. Therefore, I believe we need to sign free agents to correct the line issues and draft the QB of the future.

Can a draft pick with potential develop into a Hall of Fame caliber QB without a respectable offensive line? To me this is a chicken and egg argument. Bottom line is that it is easier to evaluate linemen than quarterbacks. We need both, but it is safer and easier to pick a lineman.

Get 5 good linemen, and then your rookie QB has a decent chance of success. If you get the rookie QB first, you still need the line before he can ever be successful. And there is a good chance he is going to be declared a bust before you ever get the line assembled.

I hope we trade the No. 10 pick. Right now we don't need any more stars on this team. We don't need to try to find a single Pro Bowl caliber lineman -- we need a lot of above average young starters.

Snout wrote:Can a draft pick with potential develop into a Hall of Fame caliber QB without a respectable offensive line? To me this is a chicken and egg argument. Bottom line is that it is easier to evaluate linemen than quarterbacks. We need both, but it is safer and easier to pick a lineman.

Get 5 good linemen, and then your rookie QB has a decent chance of success. If you get the rookie QB first, you still need the line before he can ever be successful. And there is a good chance he is going to be declared a bust before you ever get the line assembled.

I hope we trade the No. 10 pick. Right now we don't need any more stars on this team. We don't need to try to find a single Pro Bowl caliber lineman -- we need a lot of above average young starters.

I agree it is a chicken and egg argument. It doesn't matter which comes first because we need both, however there aren't any franchise QBs loitering about in free agency. There are several quality offensive linemen who will be free agents. So, to my thinking it makes more sense to draft a QB and sign line upgrades via free agency. That, and the line positions we need are not ones usually drafted with top 10 1st round draft selections.

Redskins_Fanatic wrote:

skins2357 wrote:1. Marcel Dareus DT/DE

Projects as a 4-3 DT everywhere that I've seen. We don't need any more guys who aren't PROTOTYPICAL 3-4 players.

First Google hit on "Marcell Dareus scouting report":

Marcell Dareus, DL, Alabama (Junior)
Height: 6’3″
Weight: 306
Projection: 1st Round

Last Updated: November 6th, 2010

Strengths: Excellent size and bulk – Elite strength/speed ratio – Quick reaction to the snap – Never stops moving his feet – Plays the double team very well – Sheds single blocks with ease – Is able to consistently collapse the pocket – Coached up and NFL ready – Versatile enough to play all three 3-4 positions.

I'd love to see this guy at #10.

DarthMonk

DarthMonk wrote:

Redskins_Fanatic wrote:

skins2357 wrote:1. Marcel Dareus DT/DE

Projects as a 4-3 DT everywhere that I've seen. We don't need any more guys who aren't PROTOTYPICAL 3-4 players.

First Google hit on "Marcell Dareus scouting report":

Marcell Dareus, DL, Alabama (Junior)
Height: 6’3″
Weight: 306
Projection: 1st Round

Last Updated: November 6th, 2010

Strengths: Excellent size and bulk – Elite strength/speed ratio – Quick reaction to the snap – Never stops moving his feet – Plays the double team very well – Sheds single blocks with ease – Is able to consistently collapse the pocket – Coached up and NFL ready – Versatile enough to play all three 3-4 positions.

I'd love to see this guy at #10.

DarthMonk

Well played!

DarthMonk wrote:I'd love to see this guy at #10.

DarthMonk

I wouldn't. Guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

If they take him he'll simply be another guy in Burgundy and Gold that I cannot and will not root for. That's nothing new in the last decade or so.

Redskins_Fanatic wrote:

DarthMonk wrote:I'd love to see this guy at #10.

DarthMonk

I wouldn't. Guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

If they take him he'll simply be another guy in Burgundy and Gold that I cannot and will not root for. That's nothing new in the last decade or so.

What's wrong with him?

Irn-Bru wrote:What's wrong with him?

I don't think DE is a big enough need to draft at #10. I don't believe (from what I've read) that he's a PROTOTYPICAL Nose Tackle (the DL position I believe we need most urgently). Therefore he will be a WASTE of a selection in my mind.

So, there are no players worth the #10 pick but somehow we are supposed to trade it to another team? I sense it would be a waste of time explaining the flaw in that logic.

Redskins_Fanatic wrote:

DarthMonk wrote:I'd love to see this guy at #10.

DarthMonk

I wouldn't. Guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

If they take him he'll simply be another guy in Burgundy and Gold that I cannot and will not root for. That's nothing new in the last decade or so.

What do you mean in the last decade or so? You said we weren't very good when we were winning Super Bowl's either. You also say the Patriot's aren't good and the Dolphins weren't when they went 17-0.

TCIYM wrote:So, there are no players worth the #10 pick but somehow we are supposed to trade it to another team? I sense it would be a waste of time explaining the flaw in that logic.

There are no players AT OUR TOP POSITIONS OF NEED that I think will be available at #10. This is NOT a very strong draft from what I'm seeing.

It is going to be tough to get rid of the #10 pick and trade down. It will NOT bring the value that it has in other years.

As I said in one of the threads last night.... we might end up having to take a player at a position of lower need at #10. That would be because we can't get suitable compensation it, and that is going to frustrate me very greatly if it happens. Heck, I'd even consider taking a QUALITY PLAYER at a position of need from another team for the #10 pick.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:What do you mean in the last decade or so?

I was talking about there being certain players on the roster who I could not and/or would not root for because of one reason or another.

I don't really remember there being anyone like that on those older Redskins teams, but in recent years it has happened with some frequency. It's probably largely because of Free Agency.

Dareus and Clayborn can play, granted 3-4 DE isn't a huge position of need, but either one of them would definitely help. I'm not convinced that Newton and/or Locker won't pick up some steam, Julio Jones could too, he can play. Peterson and Amakumara are good corners. Solder might not really be a reach either if we want to address RT. Justin Blackmon looks like he could move ahead of Jones at WR.

It's highly doubtful we can trade out of it unless somebody REALLY wants Gabbert/Newton/Locker, if those guys are even in the discussion at ten.

Redskins_Fanatic wrote:[
WR: Possible, IF there is a guy worth it who is there. I doubt it.

This isn't a response to you post (because after that Brady comment I don't think anyone can take anything you post very seriously), but rather a genera post about drafting a WR in the Top ten.

NO, and I repeat, NO, WR is worth a top ten pick! I don't care who it is. Jerry Rice, Charlie Taylor, Art Monk, Randy Moss, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, or any other WR you want to name. They simply aren't worth being taken that high.

WRs don't touch the ball enough to be a difference maker! And everything else has to be right for them to get the ball that much.

Me personally, If I were an owner, I would fire any GM that took a WR in the top ten before he ever got to make his second round pick and would consider firing him if he used a first round pick on one.

I feel almost the same way about RB. Because without an good OL RBs are useless. If you have a great OL any bum will do at RB.

If you have a good pass protecting OL that also run blocks well and you have a good QB, just about anyone you put out at WR and RB will work.

Look at the Skins' history. When we had two HoF WRs (Taylor and Mitchell) and a HoF QB (Sonny)our team was still poor. When we has a great OL and time we got good QB play we won a SB.

If Gibbs had had a franchise QB behind the Hogs Gibbs might have been the first Coach to win five or six SBs. Heck he might have won that many with Bernie Kosar.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

Redskins_Fanatic wrote:[
WR: Possible, IF there is a guy worth it who is there. I doubt it.

This isn't a response to you post (because after that Brady comment I don't think anyone can take anything you post very seriously), but rather a genera post about drafting a WR in the Top ten.

NO, and I repeat, NO, WR is worth a top ten pick! I don't care who it is. Jerry Rice, Charlie Taylor, Art Monk, Randy Moss, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, or any other WR you want to name. They simply aren't worth being taken that high.

WRs don't touch the ball enough to be a difference maker! And everything else has to be right for them to get the ball that much.

Me personally, If I were an owner, I would fire any GM that took a WR in the top ten before he ever got to make his second round pick and would consider firing him if he used a first round pick on one.

I feel almost the same way about RB. Because without an good OL RBs are useless. If you have a great OL any bum will do at RB.

If you have a good pass protecting OL that also run blocks well and you have a good QB, just about anyone you put out at WR and RB will work.

Look at the Skins' history. When we had two HoF WRs (Taylor and Mitchell) and a HoF QB (Sonny)our team was still poor. When we has a great OL and time we got good QB play we won a SB.

If Gibbs had had a franchise QB behind the Hogs Gibbs might have been the first Coach to win five or six SBs. Heck he might have won that many with Bernie Kosar.

Thank you!

skinsfan#33 wrote:This isn't a response to you post (because after that Brady comment I don't think anyone can take anything you post very seriously), but rather a general post about drafting a WR in the Top ten.

That's fine. The moment I start worrying about whether anyone else likes or takes what I say seriously is the moment I need to put a round of .45ACP up under my chin.

skinsfan#33 wrote:NO, and I repeat, NO, WR is worth a top ten pick! I don't care who it is. Jerry Rice, Charlie Taylor, Art Monk, Randy Moss, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, or any other WR you want to name. They simply aren't worth being taken that high.

In general I will agree with you. However, in this specific situation I'm not sure what else there is going to be of value to us at that pick IF WE CAN'T TRADE OUT OF IT.

Maybe CB, depending on who gets taken in the nine selections ahead of us; but I am having a very difficult time finding a player who is....

a. Worth the #10 selection (concensus ranking in the Top 10-12 players in the draft.
b. Likely to be there at #10 (not previously selected).
c. Prototypical size, skills, etc.... for the position he plays.
d. Plays a position of PRIMARY need for this team.

Those are the four main criteria I have been using to try and figure out who I want to see the Redskins select at #10. I CAN'T FIND ANYONE who fits those 4 simple criteria. I'd love to hear who you people think does. If it's a WR and we can't get out of the pick what would you prefer to have this team do.... skip the pick? reach to draft someone not worth the pick or who plays a position that isn't a primary need?

I agree on the importance of a very good offensive line... but why then does conventional wisdom prohibit teams from drafting guards or centers in the first 15 picks. Really, a strong LT isn't enough, and you could argue that Jacoby and Lachey weren't the best members of the Hogs. A chain is only as good as it's weakest link, so why wouldn't drafting a dominating center or guard be worth a top 15 pick?

You almost never see that, and it seems an offensive line is the most crucial to moving the football. They support both running and passing and they are on the field for every play.

Still, if conventional wisdom IS that a C or G isn't a top 15 pick then that only means they're available in later rounds anyway. Taking a WR would be worthwhile. It's true, WR's don't touch the ball every play, but like a 3-4 NT they draw double teams. They open up the field for other receivers. They keep the chains moving with YAC. They help the run game with successful play action. They block, they play special teams.

I think it's crazy to say a WR is never worth a top 10 (and to imply they're never even worth a first round pick.)

If AJ Green was available I'd snap him up in a heartbeat. Granted, I'd rather snag an elite G, but we'll still have a good selection in the second round.