The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

We need Haynesworth to help this defense - BUT we do not need Haynesworth to be on the field until he's in good enough shape to help the players around him - if he's not in shape then the other players have to cover for him - he's not playing until he shows Shanahan that he is in shape

why are some here having a hard time seeing that

I do not think that we are going to get much for a player that just is not motivated to play so we just have to hope that he wakes up and makes an effort


until Haynesworth shows that he's in shape to be able to what these guys want then Shanahan should keep him off the field even if that is for a number of games

I think that some fans here think this guy makes our defense better by his presence on the field and that is really showing a lack of knowledge about the game and the intricacies of having everyone on the field doing their best

wake up

If Haynesworth can't play well enough to hold a starting position, then let him talk with Devin Thomas on the bench. And wave "bye" during the off-season.

Or sooner.

At some point, Shanahan and Allen weigh it:

- You can't pile $9 million on the field and have the money-pile stop an offense

- If Haynesworth is not good enough, for whatever reason, then even $100 million won't stop the Cowboys etc.

- Either he plays like an NFL player, or he's unnecessary.

welch wrote:If Haynesworth can't play well enough to hold a starting position, then let him talk with Devin Thomas on the bench. And wave "bye" during the off-season.

Or sooner.

At some point, Shanahan and Allen weigh it:

- You can't pile $9 million on the field and have the money-pile stop an offense

- If Haynesworth is not good enough, for whatever reason, then even $100 million won't stop the Cowboys etc.

- Either he plays like an NFL player, or he's unnecessary.

and now this

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/1388 ... for-week-1

THE fat tub of lard may be inactive - ANYONE who thinks that Haynesworth is not ready to play 'because' of Shanahan OR that Shanahan is responsible for this fat, out of shape player POSSIBLY not being able to play week 1 needs to start getting mad with this waste of time

I hope the guys on the team make him feel like the slime he is for not getting ready to play like everyone else did

this guy deserves to be treated like the stupid ignoramus he is

skinsr4real wrote:ANYONE who thinks that Haynesworth is not ready to play 'because' of Shanahan OR that Shanahan is responsible for this fat, out of shape player POSSIBLY not being able to play week 1 needs to start getting mad with this waste of time

I don't recall hearing anyone say that it was Shanahan's fault that Haynesworth isn't ready, just that he IS ready but Shanahan is too proud to let him play (though I must say I disagree with that sentiment).

cvillehog wrote:

skinsr4real wrote:ANYONE who thinks that Haynesworth is not ready to play 'because' of Shanahan OR that Shanahan is responsible for this fat, out of shape player POSSIBLY not being able to play week 1 needs to start getting mad with this waste of time

I don't recall hearing anyone say that it was Shanahan's fault that Haynesworth isn't ready, just that he IS ready but Shanahan is too proud to let him play (though I must say I disagree with that sentiment).

Nope, no one has said that either. I don't think Haynesworth is necessarily ready to play, and certainly don't think Shanahan is too proud to let him. Nor do I think it's a battle of egos as Kazoo claims, though AH's ego does factor in to his petulance about having to play with the scrubs. It's got to do with the approach Shanahan is taking in trying to get AH's best from him. I think his approach is counter-productive to getting AH on board, and therefore, to team unity. And that is detrimental to the team in the long run.

Deadskins wrote:Nor do I think it's a battle of egos as Kazoo claims, though AH's ego does factor in to his petulance about having to play with the scrubs. It's got to do with the approach Shanahan is taking in trying to get AH's best from him. I think his approach is counter-productive to getting AH on board, and therefore, to team unity. And that is detrimental to the team in the long run.

So our argument is the guy is out of shape and just needs the work. You're saying he should have taken him out after the first quarter and that you're not saying it's egos, but then you are saying the "approach is counter-productive."

How is that not about "egos" exactly since Shannahan was playing lard butt and you're saying he shouldn't have? What is it about then if it's not about playing and it's not about egos in your view?

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Deadskins wrote:Yes, there is a "trade him" option. It just becomes less palatable as time goes on

To who? We tried to trade him. He still has 9 mil guaranteed and he's proven to everyone he's now the Manny Ramirez of the NFL. Who are we going to trade him to exactly?

Deadskins wrote:I merely pointed out that Shanahan didn't have to put it on display for an entire game in an attempt to shame AH into giving a damn. That strategy will only hurt the Redskins in the long run. I feel like he had an "out" of this mess that he didn't take. That "out" could have saved face for everybody, rather than make everyone involved dig in their heels. No way is AH going to come around now.

Your strategy was for Shanahan to take him out after the first quarter. I realize you only see it in terms of ego, delivering a message. But I keep telling you our view is that AH needed the work and he needed to show he was ready for the season. I understand you don't want to see this as anything but an ego match, but your argument would work better if you didn't just keep ignoring what we're telling you. Address the point he needed the work and why you don't think so, don't just keep repeating it's nothing but an ego match when that's not our argument.

See this is where you need to gain reading comprehension. I have already addressed your point:

Deadskins wrote:I don't think 3/4 of a preseason football game is going to cure AH's conditioning problems, so the excuse that he made him play the full game to get him in shape is bunk.

And you mischaracterize my argument (as you so often do when we have discussions) as a battle of egos. I do think AH's ego factors into the problem, but Shanahan's ego has nothing to do with it. I went into more depth on this issue in my post immediately preceding this one. As for a trading partner, I would think Tennessee, Tampa Bay, and Oakland would all be top contenders for AH's services. But as I have stated repeatedly, his trade value drops every day this drama is allowed to continue.

So, to sum up, it is you, not I, who is ignoring the other's argument.

Deadskins wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Deadskins wrote:Yes, there is a "trade him" option. It just becomes less palatable as time goes on

To who? We tried to trade him. He still has 9 mil guaranteed and he's proven to everyone he's now the Manny Ramirez of the NFL. Who are we going to trade him to exactly?

Deadskins wrote:I merely pointed out that Shanahan didn't have to put it on display for an entire game in an attempt to shame AH into giving a damn. That strategy will only hurt the Redskins in the long run. I feel like he had an "out" of this mess that he didn't take. That "out" could have saved face for everybody, rather than make everyone involved dig in their heels. No way is AH going to come around now.

Your strategy was for Shanahan to take him out after the first quarter. I realize you only see it in terms of ego, delivering a message. But I keep telling you our view is that AH needed the work and he needed to show he was ready for the season. I understand you don't want to see this as anything but an ego match, but your argument would work better if you didn't just keep ignoring what we're telling you. Address the point he needed the work and why you don't think so, don't just keep repeating it's nothing but an ego match when that's not our argument.

See this is where you need to gain reading comprehension. I have already addressed your point:

Deadskins wrote:I don't think 3/4 of a preseason football game is going to cure AH's conditioning problems, so the excuse that he made him play the full game to get him in shape is bunk.

And you mischaracterize my argument (as you so often do when we have discussions) as a battle of egos. I do think AH's ego factors into the problem, but Shanahan's ego has nothing to do with it. I went into more depth on this issue in my post immediately preceding this one. As for a trading partner, I would think Tennessee, Tampa Bay, and Oakland would all be top contenders for AH's services. But as I have stated repeatedly, his trade value drops every day this drama is allowed to continue.

So, to sum up, it is you, not I, who is ignoring the other's argument.

What in God's name makes you think anyone would trade for a part-time player due $9 million in guaranteed pay?

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Deadskins wrote:Nor do I think it's a battle of egos as Kazoo claims, though AH's ego does factor in to his petulance about having to play with the scrubs. It's got to do with the approach Shanahan is taking in trying to get AH's best from him. I think his approach is counter-productive to getting AH on board, and therefore, to team unity. And that is detrimental to the team in the long run.

So our argument is the guy is out of shape and just needs the work. You're saying he should have taken him out after the first quarter and that you're not saying it's egos, but then you are saying the "approach is counter-productive."

How is that not about "egos" exactly since Shannahan was playing lard butt and you're saying he shouldn't have? What is it about then if it's not about playing and it's not about egos in your view?

OK Kaz, try to follow along. I had no problem with MS playing AH in the final preseason game. I just think he carried it too far, after seeing that AH wasn't going to give any effort. That was the part that was counter-productive, because he had already proven his point to AH and to the world. Some of AH's teammates feel that AH would give an effort in a regular season game that he wouldn't in the preseason (and I tend to agree). And everybody, including the D-coordinator, feels that our defense is better when AH is on the field. You even stated, in a previous post, that MS is giving AH special treatment because he understands that he has special abilities above and beyond most players.

What I think is counter-productive is the approach he is using to try and change AH's attitude. This is where AH's ego comes in to play (yes, AH's ego is involved here, as I've stated repeatedly). But it is not a "battle of egos," because Shanahan's ego is not part of the equation. Some players respond to the carrot and some to the stick. I'm not asking that he coddle AH, and give him kisses, just that he not air the dirty laundry in public by forcing him to play the final three quarters of a game where he's obviously mailing it in. Hell, if he had pulled him and sent him to the locker room, it would have been better for the team. At least that would have sent the message in a clear way that AH was letting his teammates down with his half-assed play. Preseason games are not the place to try to get people into condition, that's what conditioning coaches do during the week. As it stands, this will divide the locker room, as some of his teammates will invariably side with AH, even if most side with the coach. And that is what is counter-productive to a successful season. Get it now?

cvillehog wrote:

Deadskins wrote:As for a trading partner, I would think Tennessee, Tampa Bay, and Oakland would all be top contenders for AH's services. But as I have stated repeatedly, his trade value drops every day this drama is allowed to continue.

What in God's name makes you think anyone would trade for a part-time player due $9 million in guaranteed pay?

Tampa Bay, was going to give up more than the 41 million we gave AH in guaranteed money just a year ago. 9 million for three more seasons is a pittance compared to that. Tennessee has been trying to get AH back since we signed him, even going as far as falsely accusing us of tampering. And Al Davis is crazy enough to think AH could be changed if he wore the Silver and Black. Actually, I think AH might fit in there, and would do well for them. Anyway, AH is still one of the best DTs in the league, and there would be a market for him, especially at 9 million for three years.

I think you are overestimating other teams' interest in Albert. There were plenty of opportunities for a deal if you think teams would be willing to give up that kind of money (plus picks and or personnel) for albert. Especially considering the number of games he misses.

cvillehog wrote:I think you are overestimating other teams' interest in Albert. There were plenty of opportunities for a deal if you think teams would be willing to give up that kind of money (plus picks and or personnel) for albert. Especially considering the number of games he misses.

Like I said, Tampa was willing to give up more last year, knowing how many games he plays a season.

Deadskins wrote:

cvillehog wrote:I think you are overestimating other teams' interest in Albert. There were plenty of opportunities for a deal if you think teams would be willing to give up that kind of money (plus picks and or personnel) for albert. Especially considering the number of games he misses.

Like I said, Tampa was willing to give up more last year, knowing how many games he plays a season.

Keywords: "was" & "last year"

cvillehog wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

cvillehog wrote:I think you are overestimating other teams' interest in Albert. There were plenty of opportunities for a deal if you think teams would be willing to give up that kind of money (plus picks and or personnel) for albert. Especially considering the number of games he misses.

Like I said, Tampa was willing to give up more last year, knowing how many games he plays a season.

Keywords: "was" & "last year"

Yeah, "was" willing to give up more than 41 million "last year" for 4 years of service. I should think that going from 13 million a season down to 3 per would be enough of a discount to pique their interest.

Deadskins wrote:

cvillehog wrote:

Deadskins wrote:As for a trading partner, I would think Tennessee, Tampa Bay, and Oakland would all be top contenders for AH's services. But as I have stated repeatedly, his trade value drops every day this drama is allowed to continue.

What in God's name makes you think anyone would trade for a part-time player due $9 million in guaranteed pay?

Tampa Bay, was going to give up more than the 41 million we gave AH in guaranteed money just a year ago. 9 million for three more seasons is a pittance compared to that. Tennessee has been trying to get AH back since we signed him, even going as far as falsely accusing us of tampering. And Al Davis is crazy enough to think AH could be changed if he wore the Silver and Black. Actually, I think AH might fit in there, and would do well for them. Anyway, AH is still one of the best DTs in the league, and there would be a market for him, especially at 9 million for three years.

I just do not think that there is a GM or FO guy right now that would agree with your assessment that "AH is still one of the best DTs in the league, and there would be a market for him, especially at 9 million for three years" - which part of NOT being in shape and NOT ready to play right now are you basing this on?

are you kidding me - this guy is not worth much of anything right now


Shanahan is considering sitting this guy AND you think he's "still one of the best DTs in the league" - can you share some of these fantastic meds you are on

You're also making the assumption that AH would even consider playing for 9 over 3 years. I mean, he basically sat out because of the change to a 3-4! And he has announced to the world that he won't do even required off-season workouts.

He's clearly a talented guy, and he is massive, but is there any doubt that we over-paid for him?

cvillehog wrote:You're also making the assumption that AH would even consider playing for 9 over 3 years. I mean, he basically sat out because of the change to a 3-4! And he has announced to the world that he won't do even required off-season workouts.

He's clearly a talented guy, and he is massive, but is there any doubt that we over-paid for him?

bingo - or that we would love to move him but who is going to make us an offer for a player that can't play

skinsr4real wrote:

cvillehog wrote:You're also making the assumption that AH would even consider playing for 9 over 3 years. I mean, he basically sat out because of the change to a 3-4! And he has announced to the world that he won't do even required off-season workouts.

He's clearly a talented guy, and he is massive, but is there any doubt that we over-paid for him?

bingo - or that we would love to move him but who is going to make us an offer for a player that can't play

Exactly. Had Shannahan not played him, no one would have thought he was ready to actually play. Had he come out and kicked butt, EVERYONE would have known he was. He couldn't be bothered. Once again Lord Lard Butt forced it so that it was clear to all he wasn't in football shape and he'd already announced he wouldn't be next year either. Was it us he screwed?

skinsr4real wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

cvillehog wrote:

Deadskins wrote:As for a trading partner, I would think Tennessee, Tampa Bay, and Oakland would all be top contenders for AH's services. But as I have stated repeatedly, his trade value drops every day this drama is allowed to continue.

What in God's name makes you think anyone would trade for a part-time player due $9 million in guaranteed pay?

Tampa Bay, was going to give up more than the 41 million we gave AH in guaranteed money just a year ago. 9 million for three more seasons is a pittance compared to that. Tennessee has been trying to get AH back since we signed him, even going as far as falsely accusing us of tampering. And Al Davis is crazy enough to think AH could be changed if he wore the Silver and Black. Actually, I think AH might fit in there, and would do well for them. Anyway, AH is still one of the best DTs in the league, and there would be a market for him, especially at 9 million for three years.

I just do not think that there is a GM or FO guy right now that would agree with your assessment that "AH is still one of the best DTs in the league, and there would be a market for him, especially at 9 million for three years" - which part of NOT being in shape and NOT ready to play right now are you basing this on?

are you kidding me - this guy is not worth much of anything right now


Shanahan is considering sitting this guy AND you think he's "still one of the best DTs in the league" - can you share some of these fantastic meds you are on

I think that this has gotten personal for Shanahan and that the "not being in shape" is being overplayed. Kemo hasn't looked in shape either during the preseason and we don't hear anything about him. Wash Post has quotes from two players saying that the D would be better off with Haynesworth on the field. Do you think that they are just making that up?

My take is that this is a conditioning issue and a case of Mike trying to break AH of his ego. I bet that Mike talked to AH about going out there and busting his butt in that last game, and in doing so, would show his conditioning and willingness to be a "part" of this team. I am 100% in favor of how Mike is handling this situation. AH has to lose the ego to deserve to play on this team.

I'd also bet that 95% of the team is behind Mike and NOT fat Al. The idiot only has to do one thing. Play hard, no matter what game it's in, and he can't even do that because it hurts his feelings...

Fat al can ride the pine for the remainder of his contract as far as I am concerned. And that DOES help the redskins because it proves to the rest of the players that nobody is above the team, and that has to be the first thing that turns around for this team.

I think that this has gotten personal for Shanahan and that the "not being in shape" is being overplayed. Kemo hasn't looked in shape either during the preseason and we don't hear anything about him. Wash Post has quotes from two players saying that the D would be better off with Haynesworth on the field. Do you think that they are just making that up?

The players say that the team would be better off if Haynesworth was on the field and played. If AH is on the field and doing nothing, taking space, then everything is different.

The players said they thought AH would play hard against the Cowboys.

That's significant: they thought, they guessed, they estimated, they hoped that AH would play hard. They couldn't guarantee it. They couldn't be sure.

If you were George Allen, what would you have done witn Diron Talbert if Diron made it clear that he might play hard...or he might not?

We pretty much know what George, and Jack Pardee, and Richie Petibon / Joe Gibbs would have done. The same thing that Shanahan has been doing.

welch wrote:

I think that this has gotten personal for Shanahan and that the "not being in shape" is being overplayed. Kemo hasn't looked in shape either during the preseason and we don't hear anything about him. Wash Post has quotes from two players saying that the D would be better off with Haynesworth on the field. Do you think that they are just making that up?

The players say that the team would be better off if Haynesworth was on the field and played. If AH is on the field and doing nothing, taking space, then everything is different.

The players said they thought AH would play hard against the Cowboys.

That's significant: they thought, they guessed, they estimated, they hoped that AH would play hard. They couldn't guarantee it. They couldn't be sure.

If you were George Allen, what would you have done witn Diron Talbert if Diron made it clear that he might play hard...or he might not?

We pretty much know what George, and Jack Pardee, and Richie Petibon / Joe Gibbs would have done. The same thing that Shanahan has been doing.

The problem is that we don't really have a lot of options here. The other defensive linemen haven't really looked good in preseason either. If we had a good option behind Big Al I'd say screw him, but the fact is that we don't. A rotation of Golston, Kemo, Bryant, Daniels, Holiday, and Carriker isn't going to scare anybody.

The problem is that we don't really have a lot of options here. The other defensive linemen haven't really looked good in preseason either. If we had a good option behind Big Al I'd say screw him, but the fact is that we don't. A rotation of Golston, Kemo, Bryant, Daniels, Holiday, and Carriker isn't going to scare anybody.

Sometimes it's got to be done. Even if the defense doesn't play as well as they might if AH played hard. Haynesworth can't kidnap he team, hold it hostage.

Who was that superstar passer that The Danny signed...ah, Jeff George. The team was better off without George, even though it meant that Tony Banks started at QB.

Was this already posted?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5535885

CanesSkins26 wrote:Wash Post has quotes from two players saying that the D would be better off with Haynesworth on the field. Do you think that they are just making that up?

No, and that doesn't contradict what we're saying. They are saying WHEN he's on the field we are better. We are saying he's not in shape to be on the field enough. As for "overplayed" the guy missed the OTAs (mandatory and voluntary), couldn't pass a basic conditioning test for a week and a half, then got a condition which is a direct cause of being out of shape and turning it on in the heat and has actually been in just a few weeks of camp. In his one chance to show he's in shape he didn't even try. You must be using some meaning of the word "overplayed" I hadn't heard before...