J. cambell

[VetSkinsFan]

brad7686 is just kidding you - he knows better - Jason Campbell is NOT an NFL starting QB

We'll see week 1, won't we?

[SkinsJock]

I hope that Campbell becomes a really good QB in the NFL

I know that some here will find this hard to fathom after all my comments, but, the Campbell I refer to has having shown NOTHING was the Jason Campbell that we saw while he was here - I have nothing against the Jason Campbell that is now playing in Oakland and I wish him well

I agree Vet, we'll see if he can be effective and I hope he is but nothing can convince me that the Jason Campbell we all saw has many IF ANY really good, attributes for a starting QB in the NFL

I really hope he makes it there - he was NEVER going to do anything here

I agree with Kaz in that the FO was really glad that someone was willing to offer something for him

[SKINFAN]

<--NOT a campbell hater, but I am a mean critic lol


The O line excuse has been beat to death, Yah our line Sucked when he played, but it was the same line Todd "ClipBoard" Collins played behind and was able to do something with it. Same recievers. I think the only time Jcamp did well is when the run game was well established.

[KazooSkinsFan]

I hope that Campbell becomes a really good QB in the NFL

The only way he's actually capable of being a good QB is if he's making decent reads and just sucking because he doesn't act on them and waits to be "sure." Which by NFL standards for speed is too late. If I were him I'd make a read and do it. If he's not reading fast enough it doesn't matter what he does he's eventually going to wash out. If he is doing good reads and is just too hesitant to act then it could cure the problem. Why not go for it? He's gone from us to the Raiders. The only place to go from there is to backup and eventually asking if people want fries with that... Better to take a shot at being good then just die the slow death path he's on now.

[KazooSkinsFan]

<--NOT a campbell hater, but I am a mean critic lol


The O line excuse has been beat to death, Yah our line Sucked when he played, but it was the same line Todd "ClipBoard" Collins played behind and was able to do something with it. Same recievers. I think the only time Jcamp did well is when the run game was well established.

So many of the uncatchable balls over heads and into the dirt at the feet of open receivers were just on him

[SkinsJock]

And at the end - to see the lack of effort on his part was so indicative

I don't care what's happening around you - if you're on the field as the QB and the leader of the offense and you are not giving 110% then you're a loser - Campbell did not try to do the best he could on every single snap - he's a loser

I hope for his sake he makes some sort of effort to be better than he showed here

[KazooSkinsFan]

And at the end - to see the lack of effort on his part was so indicative

I don't care what's happening around you - if you're on the field as the QB and the leader of the offense and you are not giving 110% then you're a loser - Campbell did not try to do the best he could on every single snap - he's a loser

I hope for his sake he makes some sort of effort to be better than he showed here

I think his problem was that he took too much on himself. He stopped to think about options, second options, third options, picking the right option. By then the play was over. He needs to read and react. No one does it like Favre. But I have a hard time saying he wasn't trying.

[SkinsJock]

And at the end - to see the lack of effort on his part was so indicative

I don't care what's happening around you - if you're on the field as the QB and the leader of the offense and you are not giving 110% then you're a loser - Campbell did not try to do the best he could on every single snap - he's a loser

I hope for his sake he makes some sort of effort to be better than he showed here

I think his problem was that he took too much on himself. He stopped to think about options, second options, third options, picking the right option. By then the play was over. He needs to read and react. No one does it like Favre. But I have a hard time saying he wasn't trying.

just my opinion - at the end of the season, we saw a number of passes that were the result of not really trying - for me, this lack of effort sums up this guy's time here

hopefully he tries a lot harder in his new uniform because he might have a lot of talent but that is getting him nowhere without a lot more effort than we saw here in B&G

[KazooSkinsFan]

just my opinion - at the end of the season, we saw a number of passes that were the result of not really trying - for me, this lack of effort sums up this guy's time here

hopefully he tries a lot harder in his new uniform because he might have a lot of talent but that is getting him nowhere without a lot more effort than we saw here in B&G

He certainly didn't project a sense of urgency. But working harder isn't always a substitute for working smarter. But he did make some bone head plays like scrambling to avoid a sack and then throwing it into the ground for intentional grounding when he just needed to loft it out of bounds past the LOS. I don't think he'll ever be good. But in bridge when you can't calculate making your contract straight up then as a fallback you ask yourself what distribution if it happened would let me make the contract. If JC doesn't get rid of the ball sooner he'll never be good. That's why if I were him, I'd read and react and if he ends up not being able to do it, he wasn't going to make it anyway.

[SkinsJock]

I agree Kaz - it seems as though he never adjusted to the speed of the game - he never seemed to play with a sense of urgency - at least to me

I was a Campbell supporter and felt he'd had a bad deal here but during last season I think it just looked to me like he said he was going to be a lot better but he was just the same QB he'd always been - disapointing, to say the least


I also agree weith your assessment, I don't think he's going to amount to anything ... but I wish him well

[VetSkinsFan]

I agree Kaz - it seems as though he never adjusted to the speed of the game - he never seemed to play with a sense of urgency - at least to me

I was a Campbell supporter and felt he'd had a bad deal here but during last season I think it just looked to me like he said he was going to be a lot better but he was just the same QB he'd always been - disapointing, to say the least


I also agree weith your assessment, I don't think he's going to amount to anything ... but I wish him well

I love the contradiction. You have no faith whatsoever that he's NFL caliber by your completely overwhelmingly exhaustive discussion, but you always end with saying, "...but I wish him well." Sounds hypocritical to me.

[KazooSkinsFan]

I love the contradiction. You have no faith whatsoever that he's NFL caliber by your completely overwhelmingly exhaustive discussion, but you always end with saying, "...but I wish him well." Sounds hypocritical to me.

Why can't you like someone but not think they are very good?

[RayNAustin]

Well Kaz ...that's really quite interesting ... I recall you and several others having a different opinion than I, otherwise we would have been in agreement all along ... right?

Yes, there was a difference. The difference was that we thought he needed to play better, but he was our best option and you ripped him without really proposing anything.

That's totally inaccurate, Kaz. You claim we had no better option and I claim that another option was never tried except when it was forced by injury. Remember that?

...

And, even after that experience, the majority rejected the idea of an open competition for the position in the 2008 offseason

Yes I do, and I remember my rebuttal. There was always an open competition. It was on the....practice field..... You always ignored that and wanted to start guys who we had no reason to believe were in any way ready to take over the helm. Colt blows. You take late round shots and usually they don't pan out, like Colt. Todd is a never was and never gonna be.

Jason has the physical skills. He may have the raw intelligence. But he doesn't have the quick mental reaction necessary to be an NFL quarterback and no amount of practice was going to change that. But it was a better shot to try then switch to guys who couldn't even do it on the practice field.

This is EXACTLY what I had been saying since early 2007 ... contrary to all of the talk about him needing time to learn "the system".

But you see ... you admit that you supported the notion (and apparently still do) that he was the best choice amongst that which we had in 2008. I firmly disagree, as I also disagree that there was ANY competition of any kind whatsoever for the starter in 2008.

Zorn was initially hired as an OC for 2008 to coach Campbell up, and then was made HC. He was not brought in to evaluate the starting QB position AT ALL. He was going to live or die based on how well he could get Campbell playing like an NFL QB ... based on his experience as an NFL QB and his experience coaching a good NFL QB in Seattle.

I said then, that the flaws in Campbell would only be magnified by a WC offense .... but the quick start the Redskins had in 2008 (before the implosion) had everyone (most everyone) saying things like "see!!! What do you say now... Ray .... " etc etc. For which I replied ... "Portis is running for 150 yards a game ... that's why we're winning". And sure enough, Portis get's run into the ground, and the o-line get's banged up, and the offense disintegrated into a laughing stock.

So they tried to move Campbell in the offseason and failed. And they stuck with him throughout the entire debacle of the 2009 season ... bingo callers ... laughing stock offense that couldn't complete a pass beyond the 5 yard dump off.

Finally, a GM and a Coach was hired that actually had a clue, one of the first things they did? They got a QB, and traded Campbell to the only team for which he would represent an upgrade, simply because Russell was perhaps the worst QB to put on an NFL uniform in 30 years.

And now ... there are the Raider interviews (pity parties) about the 10,000 coordinators poor Jason has had to contend with.

I'll make another prediction .... IF Jason keeps the starter job in 2010, it will be a miracle ... 2011 he'll either be a permanent backup, or out of the league.

My money is on Gradowski eventually taking over for Campbell during the year .... he's a better QB, but again, the one team who's owner is more meddlesome than Snyder, and believes he knows better than the coaches is Al Davis. That's why Campbell is there ... Al Davis is going to "outsmart" the entire league and go to the super bowl with Jason Campbell.

When pigs fly.

[KazooSkinsFan]

But you see ... you admit that you supported the notion (and apparently still do) that he was the best choice amongst that which we had in 2008. I firmly disagree, as I also disagree that there was ANY competition of any kind whatsoever for the starter in 2008

I know you disagree, getting your agreement was as hopeless as getting a viable alternative from you. You just kept repeating your Hail Mary one (Colt) and hail Mary two (Todd) plans. JC actually had skills. That I supported a long shot doesn't mean your longer shots were better options. As for your insistence there was no competition, I can't debate what you pull out of your posterior. All you've ever had was that since they didn't follow your longer then long shot ideas, they weren't considered. But your plans being rejected was completely explainable as they were just stupid plans.

[RayNAustin]

But you see ... you admit that you supported the notion (and apparently still do) that he was the best choice amongst that which we had in 2008. I firmly disagree, as I also disagree that there was ANY competition of any kind whatsoever for the starter in 2008

I know you disagree, getting your agreement was as hopeless as getting a viable alternative from you. You just kept repeating your Hail Mary one (Colt) and hail Mary two (Todd) plans. JC actually had skills. That I supported a long shot doesn't mean your longer shots were better options. As for your insistence there was no competition, I can't debate what you pull out of your posterior. All you've ever had was that since they didn't follow your longer then long shot ideas, they weren't considered. But your plans being rejected was completely explainable as they were just stupid plans.

BS ... Collins proved to be better in 2007 PERIOD. In 2008 and 2009, Zorn and his coaches proved to be CLUELESS, hence the hiring of the Bingo man.

Therefore, Zorn's evaluation of Campbell, and his opinion of the best alternative can be taken with a grain of salt.

I'll go with Shanahan's opinion, and we all know what that is.

[frankcal20]

JC is an NFL QB. TC has proven to be a reliable backup in the one system he knows. That's why he's in Chicago.

As for who's to blame - Vinny and Danny. They were in control. Gibbs wasn't even in control (I.M.O.) in his second time here. Now that Vinny is no longer here and Danny has 90% released the responsibility (see hayensworth) we can only expect improvement. But we'll all know the answer in 6 months.

[KazooSkinsFan]

I'll go with Shanahan's opinion, and we all know what that is.

Yes, Shannahan cut Collins, it was pretty clear

[RayNAustin]

I'll go with Shanahan's opinion, and we all know what that is.

Yes, Shannahan cut Collins, it was pretty clear

You really are stuck between a rock and a hard place aren't you? I mean, it must be tough to have such a difficult time admitting when you are wrong, while also being wrong so frequently ..

I suppose we all have our own crosses to bear.

[KazooSkinsFan]

I'll go with Shanahan's opinion, and we all know what that is.

Yes, Shannahan cut Collins, it was pretty clear

You really are stuck between a rock and a hard place aren't you? I mean, it must be tough to have such a difficult time admitting when you are wrong, while also being wrong so frequently ..

I suppose we all have our own crosses to bear.

Zorn, who does know QB's picked JC, Gibbs who won three Super Bowl's picked JC. JC was worth a fourth rounder to someone, TC wasn't worth anything. JC is still starting, TC is 38 and never won a starting job in his life. A trend that continues with the Bears.

But those are just facts Ray, they don't prove anything. When Shannahan traded JC and cut TC, it proved you right! TC should have started! A tip Ray, it's easy to be right all the time when you just define yourself as right regardless of facts and logic...

[RayNAustin]

I'll go with Shanahan's opinion, and we all know what that is.

Yes, Shannahan cut Collins, it was pretty clear

You really are stuck between a rock and a hard place aren't you? I mean, it must be tough to have such a difficult time admitting when you are wrong, while also being wrong so frequently ..

I suppose we all have our own crosses to bear.

Zorn, who does know QB's picked JC, Gibbs who won three Super Bowl's picked JC. JC was worth a fourth rounder to someone, TC wasn't worth anything. JC is still starting, TC is 38 and never won a starting job in his life. A trend that continues with the Bears.

He was worth a trip to the playoffs ....

And I hate to break the news to you ... but I believe at this point, YOU are likely a member of a very, very, very small club that actually places much value in Jim Zorn's opinion or offensive genius.

But those are just facts Ray, they don't prove anything. When Shannahan traded JC and cut TC, it proved you right! TC should have started! A tip Ray, it's easy to be right all the time when you just define yourself as right regardless of facts and logic...

No ... the fact that TC salvaged a Redskin team in a nose dive due to lack of offense (4 consecutive losses) and took them to the playoffs by DOUBLING the offensive production is a FACT. This led me to the logical conclusion that Collins proved he was more capable of producing, given the same resources available to Campbell. That is a PROVEN FACT, not speculation.

And, given what we now know about the plethora of mistakes and blunders associated with the two year regime of Jim Zorn, I don't think it's an outlandish idea that he might have also been wrong about the QB position .... or should we believe that, as you seem to do, this was the ONE THING he got right?

That Shanahan didn't consider either of them viable starting options has no bearing on which of the two were the most viable in 2008 and 2009, given no other options.

I doubt anyone would chose either of them over McNabb.

But, you are right about one thing ... JC is still a starter ... for now .... but only because he's on a team that had Jamarcus Russell as it's starter for the past couple of years, which doesn't bode well for their opinion on QBs either

[KazooSkinsFan]

This is why it's both fun and pointless debating with you, Ray. I say this:

Zorn, who does know QB's picked JC, Gibbs who won three Super Bowl's picked JC. JC was worth a fourth rounder to someone, TC wasn't worth anything. JC is still starting, TC is 38 and never won a starting job in his life. A trend that continues with the Bears

And you hear this:

YOU are likely a member of a very, very, very small club that actually places much value in Jim Zorn's opinion or offensive genius.

But I do believe that's what you heard Ray.

That Shanahan didn't consider either of them viable starting options has no bearing on which of the two were the most viable in 2008 and 2009, given no other options

Right. But it also doesn't as you claimed mean you were right that Shannahan thinks TC is better then JC.

I doubt anyone would chose either of them over McNabb

No duh, and no one argued they would

But, you are right about one thing ... JC is still a starter ... for now .... but only because he's on a team that had Jamarcus Russell as it's starter for the past couple of years, which doesn't bode well for their opinion on QBs either

And TC was passed over for a team that had Jamarcus Russell as it's starter for the past couple of years when they could have had him for free. Ouch!

BTW, TC was also passed over by Joe Gibbs, which you keep ignoring...

[RayNAustin]

This is why it's both fun and pointless debating with you, Ray. I say this:

Zorn, who does know QB's picked JC, Gibbs who won three Super Bowl's picked JC. JC was worth a fourth rounder to someone, TC wasn't worth anything. JC is still starting, TC is 38 and never won a starting job in his life. A trend that continues with the Bears

And you hear this:

YOU are likely a member of a very, very, very small club that actually places much value in Jim Zorn's opinion or offensive genius.

But I do believe that's what you heard Ray.

That Shanahan didn't consider either of them viable starting options has no bearing on which of the two were the most viable in 2008 and 2009, given no other options

Right. But it also doesn't as you claimed mean you were right that Shannahan thinks TC is better then JC.

I doubt anyone would chose either of them over McNabb

No duh, and no one argued they would

But, you are right about one thing ... JC is still a starter ... for now .... but only because he's on a team that had Jamarcus Russell as it's starter for the past couple of years, which doesn't bode well for their opinion on QBs either

And TC was passed over for a team that had Jamarcus Russell as it's starter for the past couple of years when they could have had him for free. Ouch!

BTW, TC was also passed over by Joe Gibbs, which you keep ignoring...

No, I don't ignore that at all. In fact, I have pointed out that Gibbs was not much of a talent evaluator .. evidenced by the fact that the first thing he wanted to do as a new HC was to get rid of Theisman ... which was arguably the best QB he actually coached in his many years as the Redskins coach.

And, I don't think it was a comfortable situation for Gibbs to witness how a career backup came in and played circles around his hand selected, first round "Franchise QB" whom he continued to struggle with ... in jeopardy of suffering back to back losing seasons, only to have an injury force his hand to make a move that he should have already implemented by the mid part of 2007 when the Redskins were the only team in the NFL without a TD pass to a WR.

Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but that is what happened, Kaz! Gibbs hand was forced to make a change, and that change proved to be the only thing that kept Gibbs from suffering three out of four losing seasons in his second run with the Redskins. Not exactly what he or anyone else had in mind when he returned.

This alternate universe you wish to inhabit is simply not what the rest of the world experienced. The Redskins achieved their 2005 winning season by means of a miracle 5-0 finish which prevented a losing season. They were miserable in 2004 and 2006 under Gibbs, and they were looking straight into the abyss in 2007 ... on a 4 game losing streak, and one loss away from mathematical elimination from the playoffs, and unable to move the ball or score right up to half time in the Chicago game. Campbell got hurt, and all of a sudden they win 4 straight and enter the playoffs as the hottest team in the league ... with Collins sporting the highest passer rating in the NFL over those 4 games.

And I think that contributed to Gibbs decision to retire again with one year left on his contract.

Now, save the opinions, and show me what part of this is not WHAT REALLY HAPPENED?

Please point out to me which part of this historical recollection is a figment of my imagination?

[Deadskins]

Two things to point out here:

1. JC was ready to come back in 2007, but Gibbs stayed with Collins.

2. Collins success in 2007 most likely had to do with his extreme knowledge of Al Saunders system, so the 2008 pick of JC as the starter could very well have been a fair evaluation of their readiness after training camp and the pre-season.

[RayNAustin]

Two things to point out here:

1. JC was ready to come back in 2007, but Gibbs stayed with Collins.

2. Collins success in 2007 most likely had to do with his extreme knowledge of Al Saunders system, so the 2008 pick of JC as the starter could very well have been a fair evaluation of their readiness after training camp and the pre-season.

Well, point #1 ... how could he pull a guy that is putting up 30 points per game?

Number 2, Collins knowledge of the Saunders offense was in clipboard study only, as he never actually played a game in Saunders offense until the Chicago game.

Campbell had what 19 starts ? ... and two off seasons, along with the first half of the 2006 season to study while Brunell was expected to execute day 1?

On paper, I'm sure Collins new the offense inside and out ... but knowing and executing are two different animals.

And the excuse that Campbell didn't know the offense well enough to execute it after 19 starts, and two off seasons of study is not a very good excuse ... it was a bad one then and still is.

We have seen rookies start in the NFL with success ... and surely their systems were new to them and they had just training camp to learn it. Ryan, Flacco, Rothelsibuger, Sanchez ... and let's not forget Stafford who was able to beat us as a Rookie for the winless Lions.

Campbell had the 2006 off season, half of the 2006 season, 7 starts in 2006, all of the 2007 off season and 12 starts in 2007. If he didn't know the system well enough by game 13 of the second year to execute it effectively, then he shouldn't have been on the field for that reason alone.

I tell you ... the opportunities were there for Campbell to be successful, but he didn't execute. He has a poor feel for the game ... and though he showed flashes from time to time, most of his limited statistical success was in the dink and dunk passing game that more often than not translated to losses, not wins.

It's just the fact of the matter ... Jason Campbell is Alex Smith, is Tavaris Jackson, is Kyle Boller, is Matt Leinart, is Brady Quinn ... and the dozens of others who have come into the league with great expectations but failed to develop into winning QBs.

This is Campbell's 6th year in the NFL .. he has a losing record as a starter, and had the luxury of a pretty good defense to support him. He didn't need to put up huge numbers ... just pedestrian numbers would have resulted in many more wins.

He is what he is ... another 1st round pick that didn't live up to expectations, like so many before him, and surely many more to come.

And mark my words ... the Raiders will get from Campbell exactly what the Redskins did ... no more, no less, though I doubt they'll be waiting 4 years to decide to make a change ... I think that will happen this year, as Gradowski and Boller are better gamesmen ... they might not have Campbell's arm, but they are better QBs.

[Deadskins]

Two things to point out here:

1. JC was ready to come back in 2007, but Gibbs stayed with Collins.

2. Collins success in 2007 most likely had to do with his extreme knowledge of Al Saunders system, so the 2008 pick of JC as the starter could very well have been a fair evaluation of their readiness after training camp and the pre-season.

Well, point #1 ... how could he pull a guy that is putting up 30 points per game?

Number 2, Collins knowledge of the Saunders offense was in clipboard study only, as he never actually played a game in Saunders offense until the Chicago game.

Campbell had what 19 starts ? ... and two off seasons, along with the first half of the 2006 season to study while Brunell was expected to execute day 1?

On paper, I'm sure Collins new the offense inside and out ... but knowing and executing are two different animals.

And the excuse that Campbell didn't know the offense well enough to execute it after 19 starts, and two off seasons of study is not a very good excuse ... it was a bad one then and still is.

We have seen rookies start in the NFL with success ... and surely their systems were new to them and they had just training camp to learn it. Ryan, Flacco, Rothelsibuger, Sanchez ... and let's not forget Stafford who was able to beat us as a Rookie for the winless Lions.

Campbell had the 2006 off season, half of the 2006 season, 7 starts in 2006, all of the 2007 off season and 12 starts in 2007. If he didn't know the system well enough by game 13 of the second year to execute it effectively, then he shouldn't have been on the field for that reason alone.

I tell you ... the opportunities were there for Campbell to be successful, but he didn't execute. He has a poor feel for the game ... and though he showed flashes from time to time, most of his limited statistical success was in the dink and dunk passing game that more often than not translated to losses, not wins.

It's just the fact of the matter ... Jason Campbell is Alex Smith, is Tavaris Jackson, is Kyle Boller, is Matt Leinart, is Brady Quinn ... and the dozens of others who have come into the league with great expectations but failed to develop into winning QBs.

This is Campbell's 6th year in the NFL .. he has a losing record as a starter, and had the luxury of a pretty good defense to support him. He didn't need to put up huge numbers ... just pedestrian numbers would have resulted in many more wins.

He is what he is ... another 1st round pick that didn't live up to expectations, like so many before him, and surely many more to come.

And mark my words ... the Raiders will get from Campbell exactly what the Redskins did ... no more, no less, though I doubt they'll be waiting 4 years to decide to make a change ... I think that will happen this year, as Gradowski and Boller are better gamesmen ... they might not have Campbell's arm, but they are better QBs.

I was just making observations, not making excuses for, or defending JC. I stopped doing that after the 2008 Cincinnati game.

One more thing though, even though TC didn't play regular season games in Saunders offense, he did play preseason games each year and would practice it every week, too. Also, I heard it said many times that TC knew the offense as well as AS.