The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

PulpExposure wrote:1) Yeah, drafting QBs high has really worked out for us, hasn't it? I mean...Ramsey, 3 years later Campbell...both 1sts that were essentially worthless.

2) It was a 1st, 3rd and 4th, not 2 1sts. We used our 1st in the 2005 draft on Carlos, and then traded our first from the 2006 draft to get the 25th in the 2005 draft to get Campbell. In essence, he cost us a 3rd and a 4th.

1) Not to mention SHULER.......

2) No, you are right, but what I meant was we wasted a first round pick on JC, AND gave up next years pick to select him. I should have made that clear. It must have been a little too late when I wrote that. Regardless, we gave up alot for a bust. Looking at the amount of draft picks this team had from 2002 to 2007 is depressing.

I won't say that JC is a bust because what he's shown is he's an average NFL QB. You can not say that he's the only reason we've either won or lost any game. JC's not a bust, the team is a bust. If there was continuity on the coaching staff, running the same offense while allowing a player to learn and grow within that same offense, I think that we would see better results from JC. But his stat's are not that bad in all honesty. You all expect him to be Manning, Palmer, Brady, etc. But none of those QB's have been through what JC has been though and it's ignorant not to factor that in with the overall lack of success that this entire team has had.

I just won't say that it's his fault that this team hasn't won. That just shows that some of you have never played on a "Team" sport because every coach/player knows that everyone MUST do their job for a team to win. And it's just not JC not doing his job. And personally, no QB is perfect and all have shortcomings so feel free to point out those but again, make sure to point out other's shortcomings.

PulpExposure wrote:

ChampsTurf wrote:I don't think that we need a young buck QB unless we use one from our roster that's on IR this year. I'd seriously be happy with Garcia and rebuild the line while grooming Brennen or another prospect. We've groomed Campbell for 5 years now and he still sucks. His ship has sailed.

While I agree with the latter part of your statement, in that Campbell's time with the Redskins has come and gone, the former is nonsensical. Brennan? I doubt Brennan will ever play in the NFL. And Garcia? Seriously? He's 39, hasn't played in a year (with the Bucs in 2008), and is so good...he's a free agent right now. Even the freaking Browns and other QB needy teams won't look at him. What does that say about his current status?

And you want him to start for us next year? You hoping for the Redskins to get a real high 1st round draft pick in the 2011 draft?

[.

Well, at least you're offering up other solutions and not just whining about someone else's idea/opinion...

You're post just shows problems (problems that we're all aware of, with the exception of your opinions of Brennan and Garcia thrown in there) while not offereing any solutions. What's the point of that?

frankcal20 wrote:I won't say that JC is a bust because what he's shown is he's an average NFL QB. You can not say that he's the only reason we've either won or lost any game. JC's not a bust, the team is a bust. If there was continuity on the coaching staff, running the same offense while allowing a player to learn and grow within that same offense, I think that we would see better results from JC. But his stat's are not that bad in all honesty. You all expect him to be Manning, Palmer, Brady, etc. But none of those QB's have been through what JC has been though and it's ignorant not to factor that in with the overall lack of success that this entire team has had.

I just won't say that it's his fault that this team hasn't won. That just shows that some of you have never played on a "Team" sport because every coach/player knows that everyone MUST do their job for a team to win. And it's just not JC not doing his job. And personally, no QB is perfect and all have shortcomings so feel free to point out those but again, make sure to point out other's shortcomings.

While I don't think that Campbell is a good QB for this franchise - I really do think that he might have what it takes to be a decent QB in the NFL, just not with this franchise and I would say that he's far from being a bad QB

SkinsJock wrote:I don't think most of us thought Campbell would become a good QB - we just hoped he would - I was at least hoping that he would 'respond' to what happened and would possibly be able to fill in here until we found a really good QB

I think that we will see a lot of changes in this franchise early next year and hopefully someone finds a way to get a QB in here that can pave the way for a really great QB that also is hopefully in B&G by the begining of next season

I really doubt that Campbell will make this roster no matter what type of offense the new GM and coaching staff want to implement - he is just not good enough, sorry

Just so we are clear, it is your contention that the 16th ranked quarterback in the NFL can't make the Washington Redskins as a 3rd quarterback?

..., but I want to make clear that it would have been nice to see JC succeed, especially after all we invested in him, but I think that we can all agree that it is not going to happen ---- and that it won't happen on another team.

I don't agree with that. I will go the the extent that he won't succeed here with the current system, but I still believe he's going to go somewhere, perform at least adequately, and we're going to be on the short end of it.

Champsturf wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

ChampsTurf wrote:I don't think that we need a young buck QB unless we use one from our roster that's on IR this year. I'd seriously be happy with Garcia and rebuild the line while grooming Brennen or another prospect. We've groomed Campbell for 5 years now and he still sucks. His ship has sailed.

While I agree with the latter part of your statement, in that Campbell's time with the Redskins has come and gone, the former is nonsensical. Brennan? I doubt Brennan will ever play in the NFL. And Garcia? Seriously? He's 39, hasn't played in a year (with the Bucs in 2008), and is so good...he's a free agent right now. Even the freaking Browns and other QB needy teams won't look at him. What does that say about his current status?

And you want him to start for us next year? You hoping for the Redskins to get a real high 1st round draft pick in the 2011 draft?

[.

Well, at least you're offering up other solutions and not just whining about someone else's idea/opinion...

You're post just shows problems (problems that we're all aware of, with the exception of your opinions of Brennan and Garcia thrown in there) while not offereing any solutions. What's the point of that?

Dear Ray of Sunshine,

I'm sorry that I offended you by pointing out that the reasoning in your post was ill-considered. Next time you post something equally idiotic, I'll be sure to ignore it to ensure that your feelings don't get hurt again.

Love,

Pookie

I think some here thinks that you have to be a top 5 QB currently in the NFL or a Rookie to play for the Skins. Funny thing is that we'll end up with someone like Rex Grossman and the guys in here will talk about the Super Bowl while J. Cam is tearing it up for another team who has a good o-line and WR's who run the right routes.

PulpExposure wrote:

Champsturf wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

ChampsTurf wrote:I don't think that we need a young buck QB unless we use one from our roster that's on IR this year. I'd seriously be happy with Garcia and rebuild the line while grooming Brennen or another prospect. We've groomed Campbell for 5 years now and he still sucks. His ship has sailed.

While I agree with the latter part of your statement, in that Campbell's time with the Redskins has come and gone, the former is nonsensical. Brennan? I doubt Brennan will ever play in the NFL. And Garcia? Seriously? He's 39, hasn't played in a year (with the Bucs in 2008), and is so good...he's a free agent right now. Even the freaking Browns and other QB needy teams won't look at him. What does that say about his current status?

And you want him to start for us next year? You hoping for the Redskins to get a real high 1st round draft pick in the 2011 draft?

[.

Well, at least you're offering up other solutions and not just whining about someone else's idea/opinion...

You're post just shows problems (problems that we're all aware of, with the exception of your opinions of Brennan and Garcia thrown in there) while not offereing any solutions. What's the point of that?

Dear Ray of Sunshine,

I'm sorry that I offended you by pointing out that the reasoning in your post was ill-considered. Next time you post something equally idiotic, I'll be sure to ignore it to ensure that your feelings don't get hurt again.

Love,

Pookie

You're post didn't offend me in the slightest. It was just a waste of typing, as you offered no other options.

frankcal20 wrote:I think some here thinks that you have to be a top 5 QB currently in the NFL or a Rookie to play for the Skins. Funny thing is that we'll end up with someone like Rex Grossman and the guys in here will talk about the Super Bowl while J. Cam is tearing it up for another team who has a good o-line and WR's who run the right routes.

When will you give up? You have been WRONG over and over and over again regarding JC, but yet you still maintain your position and now say that he is going to "tear it up" with another team with a good OL and WRs. Can I ask you which team this will be? It is probably as imaginary as your contention that JC will tear it up.....

Actual question: do you watch the games?

Just a guess. About the same guess as most here "Guess" that he will be ineffective regardless of where he goes.

But it's not like it's hard to guess, either. The 49ers are a QB, an edge rusher, and another year of Crabtree away from being a real contender. Same with the Titans; Campbell could be at least as good as 2007 Kerry Collins and leave the first-rounder free to take the best DL available or figure out how to replace Keith Bulluck.

Brett Favre and Kurt Warner can't play forever, and both are on pretty balanced teams without a clear succession plan, and the Bills have the makings of a solid team if they sign a QB and find a way to stay healthy.

So there's your shortlist, since everybody else either has too much investment in a QB already, or too many holes for a guy like Campbell to be worth the money (i.e. Cleveland, Oakland, Seattle, St. Louis).

But if I were laying odds, I'd say SF is the favorite although any of the first 5 teams mentioned would be well-positioned for at least a WC with a year of natural progression and the addition of a league-average QB.

Paralis wrote:But it's not like it's hard to guess, either. The 49ers are a QB, an edge rusher, and another year of Crabtree away from being a real contender. Same with the Titans; Campbell could be at least as good as 2007 Kerry Collins and leave the first-rounder free to take the best DL available or figure out how to replace Keith Bulluck.

Brett Favre and Kurt Warner can't play forever, and both are on pretty balanced teams without a clear succession plan, and the Bills have the makings of a solid team if they sign a QB and find a way to stay healthy.

So there's your shortlist, since everybody else either has too much investment in a QB already, or too many holes for a guy like Campbell to be worth the money (i.e. Cleveland, Oakland, Seattle, St. Louis).

But if I were laying odds, I'd say SF is the favorite although any of the first 5 teams mentioned would be well-positioned for at least a WC with a year of natural progression and the addition of a league-average QB.

I can understand your point, BUT if Alex Smith plays well, they will keep him or draft one of the many QBs in the upcoming draft. As far as the Titans, it is clear that ownership wants Young to start. We already tried to shop/push JC to the Vikings, BUT they declined immediately (I believe the same is true for SF -- behind closed doors). I am not sure about the Cards, but I would assume that they would start Lienhart over trading/signing JC (which makes WAY more sense) AND Warner has a couple years left in him, IMHO. Warner doesn't have the mileage that most upper-30s QBs have.

As far as CLE, OAK, SEAT, and STL, none have the OL or WRs that Frank spoke of. OAK appears to have some decent WRs, but they don't have the line. Personally, I believe that OAK is the only option, but who knows.

frankcal20 wrote:Just a guess. About the same guess as most here "Guess" that he will be ineffective regardless of where he goes.

BUT, there is much more to support to the later. The former is a based on a combination of assumptions and contingencies.

markshark84 wrote:I can understand your point, BUT if Alex Smith plays well, they will keep him or draft one of the many QBs in the upcoming draft. As far as the Titans, it is clear that ownership wants Young to start. We already tried to shop/push JC to the Vikings, BUT they declined immediately (I believe the same is true for SF -- behind closed doors). I am not sure about the Cards, but I would assume that they would start Lienhart over trading/signing JC (which makes WAY more sense) AND Warner has a couple years left in him, IMHO. Warner doesn't have the mileage that most upper-30s QBs have.

As far as CLE, OAK, SEAT, and STL, none have the OL or WRs that Frank spoke of. OAK appears to have some decent WRs, but they don't have the line. Personally, I believe that OAK is the only option, but who knows.

Alex Smith has never played well. They may keep him, but there's no chance they don't look for another option, and Shaun Hill pretty clearly isn't it.

Same thing with Leinart. Well, not quite. He *has* played well, but Whisenhunt's pretty clearly got no faith in him, so it's anybody's guess. Mileage isn't the issue with QBs that it is with RBs; it's just a question of getting old. Warner's play is going to fall off a cliff sooner rather than later; the Cards would be fools to go into next year without somebody they're comfortable starting several weeks in a row.

I'll grant that Tennessee's a big question mark, given that Young's playing so well, but don't put too much faith in unsource offseason reports. Virtually everybody who works in an NFL office is at least a professional liar, and any rumors need to be filtered through that mask. The problem with trading Campbell in the offseason, from a spectator perspective, was more the use of what they could get than simply what they could get. Cerrato said repeatedly that the '10 #1 wasn't in play, and without that, the Skins didn't have the ammo for either Sanchez or Cutler (and let's be thankful they didn't), and a team's got to be in pretty serious rebuilding mode to give up a low-cost starter for anything less than a blockbuster deal without having a succession plan in place. Todd Collins is not a succession plan.

It's nice that Denver is saying all the right things about how much they preferred Orton, but, then, they would. It's not like Orton's numbers this year are wildly better than Campbell's numbers before the bye last year (for that matter, they're not even wildly better than Campbell's numbers *this year*, and anybody who wouldn't trade the other 10 starters on the Broncos' offense for ours either doesn't watch football or isn't thinking dispassionately.

markshark84 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:Just a guess. About the same guess as most here "Guess" that he will be ineffective regardless of where he goes.

BUT, there is much more to support to the later. The former is a based on a combination of assumptions and contingencies.

There isn't much proof to support that he WON'T succeed in another system; there are too many variables to consider for me to feel comfortable saying that he won't succeed. We all know you hate the Redskins and hate JC especially. We get it.

I'm basing that on how guys have left here and had success elsewhere. Ask Ryan Clark or Antonio Pierce if leaving the Skins worked out for them. The sad thing, is they both sound like they really wanted to stay.

frankcal20 wrote:I'm basing that on how guys have left here and had success elsewhere. Ask Ryan Clark or Antonio Pierce if leaving the Skins worked out for them. The sad thing, is they both sounded like they really wanted to stay.

sorry Frank, but you're losing credibility with a post like this

SkinsJock wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:I'm basing that on how guys have left here and had success elsewhere. Ask Ryan Clark or Antonio Pierce if leaving the Skins worked out for them. The sad thing, is they both sounded like they really wanted to stay.

sorry Frank, but you're losing credibility with a post like this :shock:

What was wrong with my post? Both of those guys wanted to stay in Washington but D. Snyder thought he should get a hometown discount. So they went elsewhere and won - I think both now have SB rings. But this post was a response on why I think JC can go elsewhere and be successful. This example along with MY PERSONAL OPINION that he is a talented QB who plays for an untalented team. I think if he were to play on a team with adequate blocking, consistency in coaching and reliable route running WR's, he would be successful. But he doesn't and most think that he's the problem. I just don't feel that way and don't have a problem voicing my opinion or sticking up for him when people are wrongfully crucifying him.

frankcal20 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:I'm basing that on how guys have left here and had success elsewhere. Ask Ryan Clark or Antonio Pierce if leaving the Skins worked out for them. The sad thing, is they both sounded like they really wanted to stay.

sorry Frank, but you're losing credibility with a post like this

What was wrong with my post? Both of those guys wanted to stay in Washington but D. Snyder thought he should get a hometown discount. So they went elsewhere and won - I think both now have SB rings. But this post was a response on why I think JC can go elsewhere and be successful. This example along with MY PERSONAL OPINION that he is a talented QB who plays for an untalented team. I think if he were to play on a team with adequate blocking, consistency in coaching and reliable route running WR's, he would be successful. But he doesn't and most think that he's the problem. I just don't feel that way and don't have a problem voicing my opinion or sticking up for him when people are wrongfully crucifying him.

I have no problem with your opinions about Campbell - I used to think he just needed to get it all together - I was kind of biased because Gibbs seemed high on him - but all that changed after the begining of last year when I started to look a little more closely and realized we were not ever going to see this guy be a good QB - I think he's better than a lot of QBs but he's a long way from helping a team win and that is a prime requisite for a good NFL QB

about the post - you made the statement that you were basing your opinion on what had happened when players like Clark and Pierce left here - why did you not list all of the QBs that have left in the Snyder era and how good they were when they went elsewhere
AND using just those 2 players was just not making any points for me .... THEN, to name Clark and Pierce In my opinion Pierce chose to leave because he got offered more to go - he could have stayed if he had wanted to - I never wanted Clark to leave either but that was not a case of the team not liking him so much as Williams not thinking he suited what Williams wanted to do - I don't think either player was as bad at what they did here for this team as Campbell is - Not a good point by you

that is what I was pointing out - you are certainly entitled to your opinion but, in my opinion, you need to make better points to back up your opinion, is all

I hope for your sake that Campbell stays and becomes the QB you think he can be - I just don't think we'll ever see much more from him and that is not even close to the caliber of QB we need here

roybus14 wrote:shis fate was sealed when he missed Santana wide open down the field

Of all the open receivers he missed in the Denver game, why do you pick that one particularly?

I don't know roy's reasoning, but mine would be that that is Campbell's signature miss, rather than the strength everyone proclaims: his deep ball.

Here is my argument on the downfield misses. It has been said that Santana give 100% in practices. He also practices at game speed. My concern is that Santana does not. Downfield passes are all about timing and something I've noticed is that JC has been able to hit ARE in stride on all the downfield passes he's thrown to him. Santana has been hit or miss. I just wonder if Moss does not go full speed in practice and that's why they are not connecting.

JC is know to have a great deep ball. That was his strong suit. I can't imagine that any NFL QB would have just lost that ability in a few years when he's shown to be able to do it with some WR's.

Paralis wrote:Campbell could be at least as good as 2007 Kerry Collins and leave the first-rounder free to take the best DL available or figure out how to replace Keith Bulluck.

If you say so... but I doubt it!

Paralis wrote:Brett Favre and Kurt Warner can't play forever, and both are on pretty balanced teams without a clear succession plan, and the Bills have the makings of a solid team if they sign a QB and find a way to stay healthy.

JC might be OK in Minny, but if they would consider him they might as well keep Tyvariuos (sp?) Jackson. There isn't that much of a difference between him and Campbell.

Campbell in behind Arizona's OL would be an unmitigated diaster! The Cardinals OL is no better than ours and last year their OL was much worse than ours last year. JC wouldn't take advatage of having Fittz to throw to! Really bad fit for JC.

As for the Bills they already have a QB that is better than JC.

Paralis wrote:So there's your shortlist, since everybody else either has too much investment in a QB already, or too many holes for a guy like Campbell to be worth the money (i.e. Cleveland, Oakland, Seattle, St. Louis).

But if I were laying odds, I'd say SF is the favorite although any of the first 5 teams mentioned would be well-positioned for at least a WC with a year of natural progression and the addition of a league-average QB.

I don't think JC is an improvement over either one of the QBs that have started for th 49ers this year.

I can't think of one team that he would be a clear improvement over that team's starter.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:Just a guess. About the same guess as most here "Guess" that he will be ineffective regardless of where he goes.

BUT, there is much more to support to the later. The former is a based on a combination of assumptions and contingencies.

There isn't much proof to support that he WON'T succeed in another system; there are too many variables to consider for me to feel comfortable saying that he won't succed. We all know you hate the Redskins and hate JC especially. We get it.

And now how many systems has JC been in here and failed...... Also, over the 5 years he has been here, what exactly has he improved on??? What are these "variables": coaching, OL, support, ability, leadership, FO? With the exception of the FO, JC, at one time or another, has had these things but failed. For JC to be a decent QB in this league, he will need an exceptional offense. When I say "succeed" I mean that he will take a team and be the leader and strength of the offense; NOT that he can ride the coat-tales of a great OL, RB, WRs, and TEs into the playoffs. I cannot understand how someone, after watching him for 4 years now, can say that they are more certain he can do succeed over continuing to play the way he has over the past 4 years.

And saying I "hate" the skins or JC is crazy. Do I think that the skins are not going in the right direction? Yes. Do I think we need to part ways with JC after the season because of his inability to perform at the QB position? Yes. Do I hate either? No way. JC is a great person, but IMHO, not a great QB. I, in no way shape or form, hate JC. I just don't think he is good for the skins --- and the success of the skins is all I am concerned with. The team is far more important to me that one single player. Also, the skins are the only pro sports team I actually follow. It is my passion that drives my discontent.