The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Warner, Bulger, and Palmer (all veterans and former Pro-Bowlers) all struggled yesterday, so let's not hang JC after just one game.

The difference is all of those qb's that you cite have a history of success in the NFL, JC doesn't. It was just more of the same from Campbell yesterday. He simply doesn't have what it takes to be a successful starting quarterback. He isn't smart enough or quick enough to succeed in this league. Looks like we'll be drafting a qb next year.

SkinsJock wrote:First of all - WAKE UP - it's only one game - AND, it's a game that we really hoped we could win but deep down did not think we would

The bad news is that in my opinion the offense looked like it has not made anywhere near the improvement we needed. Nobody really thought we would have a good offense this season but we did expect an offense that could manage to be even a little bit more effective than last year, NOT

The gia

Wrong and wrong.

JC sucked. It wasn't just one game. It was all the weaknesses and mistakes that defined his play last year, it's MOS, that's the issue. If he'd not played well and made DIFFERENT mistakes I'd have had a lot more optimism. Seeing the same JC we saw last year was just watching deja vu all over again. And that was punctuated by Zorn not trusting him.

And sure, the D wasn't monster yet, but they showed some good things too. Even when they were giving up yards they made the stops in the end and the O wouldn't give them a break. O mistakes lead to a bunch of their points and we were in it until the end clearly because of the D. Yes, they need to make stops sooner and get off the field, but there was a lot to look at positively. With JC there was NOTHING to look at positively from that game.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Warner, Bulger, and Palmer (all veterans and former Pro-Bowlers) all struggled yesterday, so let's not hang JC after just one game.

The difference is all of those qb's that you cite have a history of success in the NFL, JC doesn't. It was just more of the same from Campbell yesterday. He simply doesn't have what it takes to be a successful starting quarterback. He isn't smart enough or quick enough to succeed in this league. Looks like we'll be drafting a qb next year.

Agreed, but more then that it's not just that they have history of success, it's that JC played the same as last year. It was just a continuation of the same shortcomings. That's what was killing me watching the train wreck we have a QB right now.

Clearly given Zorn's reluctance to trust him in critical situations he was onboard with the Cutler and Sanchez excursions and when the price was too high decided to make the best of the situation. But how bad did we need a first down when we had the ball on the 3 and Zorn gave JC not a single chance. That's a lack of trust. It was the same through, not just that one case. That one was the most clear though.

If, and I'm still saying if, JC turns out to be a bust, that's going to be one more mistake to pin on Gibbs 2.0. I've long thought the return of Gibbs was as much bad as it was good, and if it turns out JC is a bust, that'll be three high draft picks thrown away by Gibbs on a guy who turned out NOT to be our QB of the future. There was lots of concern when that trade for the Campbell pick was made with Denver in 2005, and those who doubted it are looking like they were right all along.

If, and I'm still saying if, JC turns out to be a bust,

I hate to break it to you but JC is already a bust. He's a 5th year player that performs like a rookie qb.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

If, and I'm still saying if, JC turns out to be a bust,

I hate to break it to you but JC is already a bust. He's a 5th year player that performs like a rookie qb.

You're probably right, but I'm still hoping he'll pull a Drew Brees (struggled for years and his team even drafted his replacement, but then hit his prime) and suddenly become the franchise QB we desperately need. I admit it's not looking that way so far. 15 more games to prove us wrong, though.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Wrong and wrong.

JC sucked. It wasn't just one game. It was all the weaknesses and mistakes that defined his play last year, it's MOS, that's the issue. If he'd not played well and made DIFFERENT mistakes I'd have had a lot more optimism. Seeing the same JC we saw last year was just watching deja vu all over again. And that was punctuated by Zorn not trusting him.

And sure, the D wasn't monster yet, but they showed some good things too. Even when they were giving up yards they made the stops in the end and the O wouldn't give them a break. O mistakes lead to a bunch of their points and we were in it until the end clearly because of the D. Yes, they need to make stops sooner and get off the field, but there was a lot to look at positively. With JC there was NOTHING to look at positively from that game.

Unless I am missing something, the W-L record is at 0-1 - that is a fact - how can that be "wrong"?

OK Campbell was bad - no worries - RiC and I have been saying that for a while now but the fact is he's here and he gives us the best chance to win - we all knew he had to step up but the fact that he looked so bad is not the problem - the problem is we don't have the alternative now that we have found out that he's so bad

btw - we were not "in it" at the end - the fact was that the giants knew we could not score enough to win the game - just like last year

In case there's any doubt - I think I pointed out that I was not as concerned about the D because it was the first game AND they were on the field for so long. I actually expect this defense to be a lot better than last year's D, mainly because even though last year's defense was ranked #4 statistically - they were not that great IMO because the teams we were playing against did not have to score any more points off them because they knew our offense could not score any points.
I expect this defense to be a really solid defense because they will play together better than last year's D



I think we all understand that we did not have a good chance to win that game, the fact remains that what we saw offensively (NOT defensively) gives us some concern BUT knowing/thinking that Campbell is not going to make it after all the evidence we have seen the last 4 years is just too little too late

the QB situation is not suddenly going to change here because of who's in charge of making sure we have a QB here in the first place

we all "agreed" that we would lay off Campbell and support him BECAUSE that is the only choice we have here - DUH!

"Auburn Jason" had Cadillac and Ronny brown behind him in addition to a guy (#2, forgot his name) that would catch damn near anything thrown on his side of the field. This is the NFL...let's not reference college level success b/c it has no bearing here.

VetSkinsFan wrote:"Auburn Jason" had Cadillac and Ronny brown behind him in addition to a guy (#2, forgot his name) that would catch damn near anything thrown on his side of the field. This is the NFL...let's not reference college level success b/c it has no bearing here.

VSF, you are right that it has no bearing at the NFL level but when I say "Auburn Jason", I'm referring him making use of his legs more and playing a little more freely. Theisman hit it on the head this morning when he said Jason has paralyzed himself by trying to much to be what Zorn wants him to be and he's over thinking and analyzing too much instead of just playing.

The guy can play but if he's going to continue "meandering" along to Zorn's whim, he's going to be out of here and this team won't be successful.... He's not the QB Zorn is trying to make him into. So instead of Zorn either making a decision on the starting QB or calling a game that utilizes Jason's strengths, we will get what we are now.

roybus14 wrote:So instead of Zorn either making a decision on the starting QB or calling a game that utilizes Jason's strengths, we will get what we are now.

He has no "strength." He can't make quick reads, he can't scramble and make plays and he can't make deep throws. The only thing he can do is if you give him enough time make a competent throw, usually. You can't build any offensive system around that.

I don't think Zorn wants a scrambling QB. Compare Colt this year ot last year. I actually think he regressed in a year under JZ. JC can use his feet, but I think Zorn is trying to convince him to be a Peyton Manning pocket QB passer, which just isn't working. The illegal forward pass play is a prime example.

SkinsJock wrote:OK Campbell was bad - no worries - RiC and I have been saying that for a while now but the fact is he's here and he gives us the best chance to win - we all knew he had to step up but the fact that he looked so bad is not the problem - the problem is we don't have the alternative now that we have found out that he's so bad

Oh come on man, take a position! You were against him but now he's our best option? Of course he's our best option at this point and time. I'm not with the naive who want to go to TC or worse, the ignorant who think the babies are our salvation because they made some plays against guys who like me watched opening weekend on TV.

I'm just messing with you Jock. I never said to bench him with as you accurately point out is to zero options. I was just so disappointed when the guy started a new season with everything on the line in his defining year that he played like that. And he turned what was one of his best plays of the day, scrambling potentially for first down to his clear worst, throwing an INT from 2 yards past the LOS. I am just disappointed. I made no declarative statements like benching him or firing Zorn.

SkinsJock wrote:btw - we were not "in it" at the end - the fact was that the giants knew we could not score enough to win the game - just like last year

OK, now this is a bit of word gamesmanship. Clearly I'm referring to the score, you're referring to not feeling it based on how the Giants and we were playing. But it's happened before, teams getting beaten for 58 minutes win. I'm just saying it was possible, but I agree it wasn't likely.

sorry Kazoo - you're right and I think my rhetoric is a little tainted by some diaspointment from that game - as many have pointed out it was only 1 game and despite the anticipation and disapointment, there were some good things and hopefully we can take advantage of an unbelievably easy first half of the season

I understand people here thinking I am not for Campbell - that is not really the fact - before last year I think I thought that he would be a good QB because Gibbs selected him - 2 years ago, after the first game, I started to look more closely and realized that he was possibly not as good as I hoped and moreover might not be able to become a decent to good NFL QB.

This season I realized that the best thing for the team was to hope that Campbell and Zorn could elevate both his game and our offensive strategy to be able to find out what our needs were going to be going forward offensively - I do think we have the beginings of a decent team on both sides of the ball it's just frustrating that the guys in charge have taken so long to get here and we are still at least a year maybe 2 from having an effective scoring offense back in town.

we'll all get back on track - this sort of start can be a good thing too, as long as we see the lessons learned in the way we play against the next few teams

VetSkinsFan wrote:I don't think Zorn wants a scrambling QB. Compare Colt this year ot last year.

That's part of the problem though. ZOrn should be adjusting his offense to suit JC's skills, not trying to turn JC into a player that he isn't.

Unfortunately, the offense Campbell was best suited for, we abandoned in Gibbs' third year. I really think that was the Redskins' biggest mistake in recent times. We won a playoff game and then completely revamped the offense.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:I don't think Zorn wants a scrambling QB. Compare Colt this year ot last year.

That's part of the problem though. ZOrn should be adjusting his offense to suit JC's skills, not trying to turn JC into a player that he isn't.

Wouldn't it be logistically easier if we get a QB that can run this system? We'll be training everyone every year if this keeps up. JC17 has had time behind center to 'Learn" and so far it doesn't look good, maybe (HOPEFULLY) he'll come around but heck we've been hoping every year for 3 years now.

JansenFan wrote:Unfortunately, the offense Campbell was best suited for, we abandoned in Gibbs' third year. I really think that was the Redskins' biggest mistake in recent times. We won a playoff game and then completely revamped the offense.

And stuck with that noodle-arm, Mark Brunell. Thanks, Coach Gibbs!

LoL, the sad part of that was even with the Ramen crew we were getting in the playoff door.

Mursilis wrote:

JansenFan wrote:Unfortunately, the offense Campbell was best suited for, we abandoned in Gibbs' third year. I really think that was the Redskins' biggest mistake in recent times. We won a playoff game and then completely revamped the offense.

And stuck with that noodle-arm, Mark Brunell. Thanks, Coach Gibbs!

That's such a ridiculous statement. If you compare Brunell's stats and record with Campbell, you'll see Brunell's numbers are better. And that includes the miserable 2004 season when the entire offense was lost.

And that "Noodle Arm" is the only arm to win a playoff game since Moses parted the red sea.

That "Noodle Arm" was able to hit two bombs to Moss and pull out a shocker in Dallas on Monday night football. And Santana Moss had his best year as a pro in 2005 with Noodle Arm throwing to him.

The Redskins would be better off right now with Noodle Arm as opposed to this confused perpetual 5th year rookie that's still trying to locate the pocket and correct his footwork.

Nobody will dare whisper the fact that Brunell was the one with a new revamped, 700 page Saunders offense tossed in his lap at the beginning of 2006 and expected to execute INSTANTLY. Oh NOOOO, Brunell was boo-nell because the offense didn't INSTANTLY take off like a rocket. But Campbell needs 3 years to study and learn and we should all be patient.

What an unimaginable double standard.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:I don't think Zorn wants a scrambling QB. Compare Colt this year ot last year.

That's part of the problem though. ZOrn should be adjusting his offense to suit JC's skills, not trying to turn JC into a player that he isn't.

He has. It's called a hand off to Portis.

RayNAustin wrote:

Mursilis wrote:

JansenFan wrote:Unfortunately, the offense Campbell was best suited for, we abandoned in Gibbs' third year. I really think that was the Redskins' biggest mistake in recent times. We won a playoff game and then completely revamped the offense.

And stuck with that noodle-arm, Mark Brunell. Thanks, Coach Gibbs!

That's such a ridiculous statement. If you compare Brunell's stats and record with Campbell, you'll see Brunell's numbers are better. And that includes the miserable 2004 season when the entire offense was lost.

And that "Noodle Arm" is the only arm to win a playoff game since Moses parted the red sea.

That "Noodle Arm" was able to hit two bombs to Moss and pull out a shocker in Dallas on Monday night football. And Santana Moss had his best year as a pro in 2005 with Noodle Arm throwing to him.

The Redskins would be better off right now with Noodle Arm as opposed to this confused perpetual 5th year rookie that's still trying to locate the pocket and correct his footwork.

Nobody will dare whisper the fact that Brunell was the one with a new revamped, 700 page Saunders offense tossed in his lap at the beginning of 2006 and expected to execute INSTANTLY. Oh NOOOO, Brunell was boo-nell because the offense didn't INSTANTLY take off like a rocket. But Campbell needs 3 years to study and learn and we should all be patient.

What an unimaginable double standard.

Hard to prove that, in the three years he's been gone, that his arm hasn't gotten worse. Further on that point, can he hold up 16 games? You have a valid point and then muddle it with your own ranting theory.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

roybus14 wrote:So instead of Zorn either making a decision on the starting QB or calling a game that utilizes Jason's strengths, we will get what we are now.

He has no "strength." He can't make quick reads, he can't scramble and make plays and he can't make deep throws. The only thing he can do is if you give him enough time make a competent throw, usually. You can't build any offensive system around that.

We will agree to disagree on this one.... You know what this compares to? It's like trying to turn Ichiro into a power-hitter. He's a slap hitter with a swing geared to just that, slapping the ball for hits not hitting HRs or hitting for power. So 9 years later, he's averaged 200 hits per season (MLB Record). It's what he's good at so their manager's let him do his thing...

RayNAustin wrote:

Mursilis wrote:

JansenFan wrote:Unfortunately, the offense Campbell was best suited for, we abandoned in Gibbs' third year. I really think that was the Redskins' biggest mistake in recent times. We won a playoff game and then completely revamped the offense.

And stuck with that noodle-arm, Mark Brunell. Thanks, Coach Gibbs!

That's such a ridiculous statement. If you compare Brunell's stats and record with Campbell, you'll see Brunell's numbers are better. And that includes the miserable 2004 season when the entire offense was lost.

I wasn't wishing for Campbell back in '05, I was wishing for Ramsey. And compare Ramsey and Brunell in '04, the only year they both played with essentially the same players for a significant number of games. Who was better then?

And that "Noodle Arm" is the only arm to win a playoff game since Moses parted the red sea.

And what was Brunell's stat line for that win in Tampa? 7/15 for 41 yards, no TDs, 1 interception, and 2 sacks! You might as well claim the Ravens won the Super Bowl due to Trent Dilfer.

Mursilis wrote:I wasn't wishing for Campbell back in '05, I was wishing for Ramsey.

That's no better. There is a pretty good reason he's only been a #3 since leaving Washington.

Brunell was the right choice at the time, contra the popular rantings and ravings against Gibbs for sticking with him. He's the best quarterback we've had in the last 10 years.

Like JF pointed out, the system was doing much better before we decided to revamp it. I think the transition to Campbell running the offense would have been a lot smoother without Al Saunders.

He's the best quarterback we've had in the last 10 years. Shocked

That's not saying much. We haven't had a good quarterback since Brad Johnson.