Starting KR/PR

[Countertrey]

The last two times we dipped into the CFL for punt returners (ok, so only one of the two was actually picked up for his return skills), we ended up doing ok...

'course, it WAS a while ago.

So... one was the great Mike Nelms, who NEVER called for a fair catch. Talk about guts...

Who was the other former CFL player who returned punts for the Redskins during the regular season (and actually turned out to be pretty good at it)? (Hint... he made his name playing for the 'skins as a starter in another position)

[CanesSkins26]

Oh... I'm quite sure Deadskins can handle his own discussions... to which I was a part of. But if that's the route you want to take... just the same, I guess you felt CanesSkins26 needed your assistance in his challenge regarding an alleged comparison with Moss. Wink

There is no further argument to make. For some reason you and Deadskins have come to the baseless conclusion that Alridge/Dorsey wouldn't be a huge drop-off from Moss when it comes to returning punts. Clearly their performances at colleges such as Houston and in the CFL are enough to compare them to one of the more explosive punt returners in the NFL.

It's laughable how these posts creep up every year during the off-season. Topics about guys that have done NOTHING in the NFL yet people for some reason think that they are either going to turn around their careers or come out of nowhere and become starters. Last year it was Mix, Mason, and Erasmus James. This year it's Alridge and Dorsey. Like I said earlier, lets wait to see if they even make the roster before trying to compare them to Moss.

[VetSkinsFan]

Oh... I'm quite sure Deadskins can handle his own discussions... to which I was a part of. But if that's the route you want to take... just the same, I guess you felt CanesSkins26 needed your assistance in his challenge regarding an alleged comparison with Moss. Wink

There is no further argument to make. For some reason you and Deadskins have come to the baseless conclusion that Alridge/Dorsey wouldn't be a huge drop-off from Moss when it comes to returning punts. Clearly their performances at colleges such as Houston and in the CFL are enough to compare them to one of the more explosive punt returners in the NFL.

It's laughable how these posts creep up every year during the off-season. Topics about guys that have done NOTHING in the NFL yet people for some reason think that they are either going to turn around their careers or come out of nowhere and become starters. Last year it was Mix, Mason, and Erasmus James. This year it's Alridge and Dorsey. Like I said earlier, lets wait to see if they even make the roster before trying to compare them to Moss.

I agree. I think the points have been argued where it's come to nitpicking and I'm bowing out until some new information comes to light.

[1niksder]

There is no further argument to make. For some reason you and Deadskins have come to the baseless conclusion that Alridge/Dorsey wouldn't be a huge drop-off from Moss when it comes to returning punts.

Moss only returned 6 punts last year and none the two years prior to that.
Sure he averaged just over 20 yards per return but the on he took to the house was 80 yards in one pop, take that run away and he would have averaged under 9 yards a carry with 5 for 44. Better than the 5.7 yards per return he put up in 2005 when he had 7 returns for 40 yards. Randle El had a higher average last year than 5.7 and who wants him back there.

The drop off would be at the WR position if he goes out there and get hurt while doing what ARE is pay but can't do.

[Deadskins]

There is no further argument to make. For some reason you and Deadskins have come to the baseless conclusion that Alridge/Dorsey wouldn't be a huge drop-off from Moss when it comes to returning punts.

Moss only returned 6 punts last year and none the two years prior to that.
Sure he averaged just over 20 yards per return but the on he took to the house was 80 yards in one pop, take that run away and he would have averaged under 9 yards a carry with 5 for 44. Better than the 5.7 yards per return he put up in 2005 when he had 7 returns for 40 yards. Randle El had a higher average last year than 5.7 and who wants him back there.

The drop off would be at the WR position if he goes out there and get hurt while doing what ARE is pay but can't do.

But... but.... he's the most explosive return man in th NFL?!? Can't let the facts, get in the way of good hyperbole.

And, CT: You speak of Joey T.

[SkinsFreak]

There is no further argument to make. For some reason you and Deadskins have come to the baseless conclusion that Alridge/Dorsey wouldn't be a huge drop-off from Moss when it comes to returning punts.

Moss only returned 6 punts last year and none the two years prior to that.
Sure he averaged just over 20 yards per return but the on he took to the house was 80 yards in one pop, take that run away and he would have averaged under 9 yards a carry with 5 for 44. Better than the 5.7 yards per return he put up in 2005 when he had 7 returns for 40 yards. Randle El had a higher average last year than 5.7 and who wants him back there.

The drop off would be at the WR position if he goes out there and get hurt while doing what ARE is pay but can't do.

But... but.... he's the most explosive return man in th NFL?!? Can't let the facts, get in the way of good hyperbole.

Exactly. Thank you, 1niksder and agree regarding the hyperbole, Deadskins.

And if you're going to talk about a competition at a certain position, of course there's going to be some degree of comparison in the discussion. Otherwise, why hold the competition?

[SkinsFreak]

Oh... I'm quite sure Deadskins can handle his own discussions... to which I was a part of. But if that's the route you want to take... just the same, I guess you felt CanesSkins26 needed your assistance in his challenge regarding an alleged comparison with Moss. Wink

There is no further argument to make. For some reason you and Deadskins have come to the baseless conclusion that Alridge/Dorsey wouldn't be a huge drop-off from Moss when it comes to returning punts.

Alright... I'll give you a chance.

Looking at Moss's pedestrian return numbers posted by 1niksder, PROVE to us how Dorsey/Alridge WILL be a huge drop-off.

[CanesSkins26]

Oh... I'm quite sure Deadskins can handle his own discussions... to which I was a part of. But if that's the route you want to take... just the same, I guess you felt CanesSkins26 needed your assistance in his challenge regarding an alleged comparison with Moss. Wink

There is no further argument to make. For some reason you and Deadskins have come to the baseless conclusion that Alridge/Dorsey wouldn't be a huge drop-off from Moss when it comes to returning punts.

Alright... I'll give you a chance.

Looking at Moss's pedestrian return numbers posted by 1niksder, PROVE to us how Dorsey/Alridge WILL be a huge drop-off.

I don't need to prove anything because I'm not the one making stupid, baseless predictions. I also disagree with the insinuation that Moss' numbers last year were pedestrian. You can't just take away a punt returner's longest return and look at those number. Every returners' numbers are going to be higher due to longer returns. However, if you want to look at his numbers, Moss' career return average of 12 yards a return ranks higher than Deion Sanders' (10.4) and Brian Mitchell's (9.2). So when Alridge/Dorsey starting putting up those types of numbers in the NFL, not in crap college conferences or in the CFL, let me know.

[1niksder]

I don't need to prove anything because I'm not the one making stupid, baseless predictions. I also disagree with the insinuation that Moss' numbers last year were pedestrian.

I wasn't insinuating anything, I'm just pointing he hasn't done much as a PR for the Skins to say that it would be a drop off (let alone a HUGE one) if Moss isn't returning punts. My point was he isn't the Redskins punt returner, His first year here was the only other year other than last year that he returned punts for Washington. That was 2005 and James Thrash had a higher yards per return average (even if I take out Thrash's longest return) and more returns. Antonio Brown was the return man that year and he handled 43% of the punt returns and had less than 25% of 30 opportunities. Last year the Skins were punted to 45 times Moss handled 13.3%, compared to the 40% Randle El returned.

You can't just take away a punt returner's longest return and look at those number. Every returners' numbers are going to be higher due to longer returns.

My point was he only had 6 returns and for a total of 124 yards or a plus 20 avg yards per return. Of course your longest run will make your average higher, but 80 of the 124 makes it misleading.

However, if you want to look at his numbers, Moss' career return average of 12 yards a return ranks higher than Deion Sanders' (10.4) and Brian Mitchell's (9.2).

Moss hasn't averaged 12 yards per return since 2002 if you don't count the one return you don't want me to not count. I'm not talking career stats here, the other guys don't have careers yet...

So when Alridge/Dorsey starting putting up those types of numbers in the NFL, not in crap college conferences or in the CFL, let me know.

Remember those return percentages? Moss's 13% vs ARE's 40% leaves about 46% of the Redskins return opportunities unaccounted for. That's almost half of their chances. I don't no what kind of numbers Alridge/Dorsey can put up, but either should be able improve on 46.6% of the teams return opportunities ending in fair catches (of which Santana Moss accounted for 0.0% of).

[Countertrey]

Deadskins:

And, CT: You speak of Joey T.

You are correct, sir.

[SkinsFreak]

I don't need to prove anything because I'm not the one making stupid, baseless predictions.

You're right... you're well known for posting hyperbole and proving nothing.

I don't no what kind of numbers Alridge/Dorsey can put up, but either should be able improve on 46.6% of the teams return opportunities ending in fair catches (of which Santana Moss accounted for 0.0% of).

Thank you... and that's all that anyone is saying. Moss is good, but since he's going to be used sparingly and only in situational circumstances, finding someone other than ARE to handle the PR duties is paramount.

[CanesSkins26]

Applause Thank you... and that's all that anyone is saying. Moss is good, but since he's going to be used sparingly and only in situational circumstances, finding someone other than ARE to handle the PR duties is paramount.

And that's what some of us disagree with. I personally think that Moss should be our punt returner a majority of the time. Not all the time, but most of the time. He is our best option so we should use him accordingly.

[Countertrey]

Applause Thank you... and that's all that anyone is saying. Moss is good, but since he's going to be used sparingly and only in situational circumstances, finding someone other than ARE to handle the PR duties is paramount.

And that's what some of us disagree with. I personally think that Moss should be our punt returner a majority of the time. Not all the time, but most of the time. He is our best option so we should use him accordingly.

Frankly, I believe that if Thomas and Kelly should decide to step up, there is a strong possiblity that we'd see a significant increase in Santana's touches as a PR... That's the rub. They really can't risk him getting hurt unless there is a significant improvement of the play of those two sophomores.

[1niksder]

Applause Thank you... and that's all that anyone is saying. Moss is good, but since he's going to be used sparingly and only in situational circumstances, finding someone other than ARE to handle the PR duties is paramount.

And that's what some of us disagree with. I personally think that Moss should be our punt returner a majority of the time. Not all the time, but most of the time. He is our best option so we should use him accordingly.

Frankly, I believe that if Thomas and Kelly should decide to step up, there is a strong possiblity that we'd see a significant increase in Santana's touches as a PR... That's the rub. They really can't risk him getting hurt unless there is a significant improvement of the play of those two sophomores.

Moss is our best option at WR. If he is returning punts it will take away from his production at wideout, if he gets hurt we have NO ONE to play WR.

[Deadskins]

Applause Thank you... and that's all that anyone is saying. Moss is good, but since he's going to be used sparingly and only in situational circumstances, finding someone other than ARE to handle the PR duties is paramount.

And that's what some of us disagree with. I personally think that Moss should be our punt returner a majority of the time. Not all the time, but most of the time. He is our best option so we should use him accordingly.

Frankly, I believe that if Thomas and Kelly should decide to step up, there is a strong possiblity that we'd see a significant increase in Santana's touches as a PR... That's the rub. They really can't risk him getting hurt unless there is a significant improvement of the play of those two sophomores.

Moss is our best option at WR. If he is returning punts it will take away from his production at wideout, if he gets hurt we have NO ONE to play WR.

Not to mention that he has enough trouble staying healthy when just playing WR.

[Chris Luva Luva]

Moss is our best option at WR. If he is returning punts it will take away from his production at wideout, if he gets hurt we have NO ONE to play WR.

When we were in our 2-6 slide there was no reason not to use him then. I understand he's our biggest threat but when you're not able to use him consistently you're basically voluntarily removing him from the game by not using his services elsewhere...

Th 1st time he touched the ball, he got a TD at PR. What benefit did we reap by holding him back? Increased production at WR? No. So why not put him at PR more often, put Hall back there a bit and just get rid of ARE altogether.

- Really, we could have a 3 headed horse back there. Thomas, Hall and Moss.

- Or it could be Aldridge (if he pans out), Thomas, Moss/Hall.

[SkinsFreak]

Moss is our best option at WR. If he is returning punts it will take away from his production at wideout, if he gets hurt we have NO ONE to play WR.

When we were in our 2-6 slide there was no reason not to use him then. I understand he's our biggest threat but when you're not able to use him consistently you're basically voluntarily removing him from the game by not using his services elsewhere...

Th 1st time he touched the ball, he got a TD at PR. What benefit did we reap by holding him back? Increased production at WR? No. So why not put him at PR more often, put Hall back there a bit and just get rid of ARE altogether.

- Really, we could have a 3 headed horse back there. Thomas, Hall and Moss.

- Or it could be Aldridge (if he pans out), Thomas, Moss/Hall.

I agree 100% with your contention from last year, Chris. However, I still strongly believe that Zorn was a rookie head coach and didn't want to come in and shake up the entire team, position wise, especially when his first obstacle as coach was to gain the respect of the players.

This year is a different story. The team has said that's the case and the fact that guys have been brought in to compete in an open competition currently taking place supports that the team sees the need to upgrade the position. Thank God... right? It's about time...

But I also agree with using Moss as a situational PR. In my mind, he's too valuable at WR. However, like you said, experimenting with Hall, Thomas, Alridge, Mason, Dorsey and even Cartwright (Rock has lost a ton of weight) at PR should give the team better options than ARE.

[SkinsJock]

I think most of us agree that almost anybody in place of ARE at that position gives us an upgrade

I am also hopeful that the team will give a lot more players an opportunity to show what else they can do to help make a bigger contribution - I would hope that there would be open competition at almost every position

I also hope that Zorn's second time around will include a lot more flair than we saw last season - he reportedly has an innovative offensive mind but last year, in my opinion, he seemed to be coaching not to lose after we were lucky enough to get to 6-2 and once the other teams could see what we were doing they were able to shut everything down and we never seemed to adjust

but, back on topic - I'm not that down on ARE - I just do not think our team is better off with him being used as a PR

[CanesSkins26]

I agree 100% with your contention from last year, Chris. However, I still strongly believe that Zorn was a rookie head coach and didn't want to come in and shake up the entire team, position wise, especially when his first obstacle as coach was to gain the respect of the players.

That doesn't make any sense. Last season Zorn and the staff decided on Heyer as the starting right tackle at the start of the season, and it would seem to me that picking Heyer over Jansen is a much bigger shake-up of the team than replacing ARE as the main punt returner.

[CanesSkins26]

Applause Thank you... and that's all that anyone is saying. Moss is good, but since he's going to be used sparingly and only in situational circumstances, finding someone other than ARE to handle the PR duties is paramount.

And that's what some of us disagree with. I personally think that Moss should be our punt returner a majority of the time. Not all the time, but most of the time. He is our best option so we should use him accordingly.

Frankly, I believe that if Thomas and Kelly should decide to step up, there is a strong possiblity that we'd see a significant increase in Santana's touches as a PR... That's the rub. They really can't risk him getting hurt unless there is a significant improvement of the play of those two sophomores.

I agree that using Moss more often as a punt returner is a risk, however, I think that considering how awful our offense is, the benefit of getting some big plays in the return game outweighs the risk of Moss getting injured. Even with a healthy Moss last season we still had one of the worst passing offenses in the NFL. How much worse can they really be at this point? Moss is our deep threat but with a qb that has a slow release and holds onto the ball for far too long, Moss' abilities aren't being used fully anyway. The bottom line is that we need to be able to score more points and I just don't see this offense getting much better this year considering our qb and what we have to work with at RT so I would use Moss more often as a punt returner.

[Chris Luva Luva]

Exactly ^

If Zorn and Jason can't use him, Danny Smith can. lol

[SkinsJock]

The bottom line is that we need to be able to score more points and I just don't see this offense getting much better this year considering our qb and what we have to work with at RT so I would use Moss more often as a punt returner.

I will say that is my biggest concern with this team. I do think our offense is going to need all the help it can get from a great defense and better field position from special teams. Even given all that we are going to need to see a significant improvement from our offensive line, our play calling and our receivers let alone Campbell himself.

I'm not sure that Moss is the PR but whatever comes out of the competition for the PR position I'm fairly sure we will not see ARE back there this season.

[PulpExposure]

I'm not sure that Moss is the PR but whatever comes out of the competition for the PR position I'm fairly sure we will not see ARE back there this season.

I really hope that's the case. ARE is fine as a WR...not a gamebreaker, but he's okay. About the only positive I can say for his skills as a PR is that he doesn't fumble very often...

[Fios]

I'm not sure that Moss is the PR but whatever comes out of the competition for the PR position I'm fairly sure we will not see ARE back there this season.

I really hope that's the case. ARE is fine as a WR...not a gamebreaker, but he's okay. About the only positive I can say for his skills as a PR is that he doesn't fumble very often...

ARE was featured in one of those "does the spouse or the best friend know X player better" segments last year and his wife said -- I presume without irony -- "if Antwaan could do anything else, he'd be a tap dancer, he's always tap dancing." I sat up and said, to no one in particular, "no kidding, he does the same thing on punt returns."

[SkinsFreak]

I agree 100% with your contention from last year, Chris. However, I still strongly believe that Zorn was a rookie head coach and didn't want to come in and shake up the entire team, position wise, especially when his first obstacle as coach was to gain the respect of the players.

That doesn't make any sense. Last season Zorn and the staff decided on Heyer as the starting right tackle at the start of the season, and it would seem to me that picking Heyer over Jansen is a much bigger shake-up of the team than replacing ARE as the main punt returner.

Sure it does. Before the start of last season, unlike at the RT position, I don't believe there was much competition at the PR position. Jansen lost his job due to a competition and Heyer stepping up. It wasn't until later in the season when it became clear, to the coaches anyway, that they needed to do something about bettering the PR position. That's when Moss got a few returns. But again, at the start of the season, or at least when Zorn arrived, I don't believe there were many players competing at PR. And with Zorn needing to implement his new offense expeditiously, I'm sure PR wasn't a paramount concern of his at that point, like it is now.

Actually... I found this posted on September 15, 2008 on Redskins.com

News & Notes: Redskins Re-evaluating Punt Returners
By Gary Fitzgerald
Redskins.com
Posted: September 15, 2008


The Redskins are considering making a change at punt returner, Jim Zorn said on Monday.

Antwaan Randle El is the Redskins’ primary punt returner, but he has struggled in two games this season. He has five returns for a 4.2-yard average.

On Sunday, Randle El had four returns for a 5.8-yard average and also fumbled once.

“We’re going to talk about the [punt return] situation,” Zorn said. “We have other [options] there.”

Zorn pointed to Santana Moss and James Thrash as possibilities, but added that Randle El would stay in the mix.

“Antwaan is not [careless] when it comes to punt returns,” Zorn said. “I’m not down on him at all. We just need to get more production there. We have Santana if we need to make a change there. We’re going to talk about that as we go along.”

As Randle El has taken on a greater role on offense in recent years, his numbers as a punt returner have slipped.

Last year, Randle set career highs with 51 catches for 728 yards, but his 6.1-yard punt return average was a career low.

Randle El said on Monday that he still wants to serve as the Redskins’ primary punt returner, although he welcomes a rotation with Moss or Thrash.

“I don’t have a problem with that,” Randle El said. “We’ll treat it as a one-two punch and we’ll work at it.”

Randle El said his punt return stats were down last year because he had a series of nagging injuries, including a sore hamstring. This year, he is healthy and expects better production, even if it hasn’t showed up in the first two weeks of the regular season.

Moss has not returned a punt since the 2005 season. He did it regularly with the New York Jets from 2001-04.

In his career, Moss has returned 95 punts for an 11.5-yard average and two touchdowns.

Thrash has returned 42 punts in his 12-year career, including twice last year. He has a 13.5-yard return average.

Rookie Devin Thomas has return skills, but he is not a candidate at this time, Zorn said.

“We see him more as a kickoff returner,” Zorn said.

So based on that article, it appears Zorn recognized the problem pretty quickly. But with Moss and Thrash being the only alternatives from last year, he still had to use ARE most of the time and Moss as a situational PR. They signed Alridge and Dorsey very early on this offseason, so if Zorn still plans on using Moss on occasion, I can understand why they feel the need for some competition.