The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

As Bob said, links 2 and 3 are more anti-Gibbs than anti-Snyder. I'm not doing your research and 'trusting' they're there...

SnyderSucks wrote:

DEHog wrote:

Are you secretly JLC?

Nope, although I might have to start answering the phone in the manner you suggest!

If I had JLC's job, I would probably already have been fired for using the blog to organize Anti-Snyder rallys at Redskins Park.

You keep "quoting" things I didn't say???

Sorry, I must have grabbed the wrong name when copying the earlier post.

SnyderSucks wrote:Sorry, I must have grabbed the wrong name when copying the earlier post.

No problem…


As for the Gibbs hiring I see it a bit different. I have no proof but my take is it was a smart business decision for both men. When Snyder brought the team it was understood that Gibbs could come back any time he wanted. I don’t think Gibbs wanted to come back and didn’t. After the 2003 season I heard from (from someone with the Skins) that the season ticket waiting list had dwindled to fewer than 50K some in the media put it at 30K. I believe Snyder went to Gibbs in desperation and ask for his help. I don’t think Gibbs wanted to come back (and I think it showed in his coaching) but Gibbs is a very “giving” person and he saw the need of the organization and he saw all the good he could do with the money Snyder was willing to pay him. I think the fact that he took this team to the playoffs twice (when he didn’t really want to be here) is a testament to how good he really is. Who else has taken the Redskins to the playoff stwice???

I believe Snyder went to Gibbs in desperation and ask for his help. I don’t think Gibbs wanted to come back (and I think it showed in his coaching) but Gibbs is a very “giving” person and he saw the need of the organization and he saw all the good he could do with the money Snyder was willing to pay him. I think the fact that he took this team to the playoffs twice (when he didn’t really want to be here) is a testament to how good he really is.

I've also heard it speculated that part of the decision for Gibbs was a result of needing additional money for his NASCAR team.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:I feel priveleged to have been able to witness him as a HC. I feel that with the proper backing, he would have had even more success here. Joe was rusty when it came to todays NFL. The things that made him legendary didn't change with time but the nuances of the game did. IMO Joe had idiots backing him up... If Joe had a good GM backing him and an owner who could leave NFL busines to NFL minds, he would have been put into a position to succeed further. My problem with Danny right now is that he's out to prove to the world he isn't an idiot.

IF Danny takes his hand out of the jar, he proves his detractors right especially if it results in success. But he's so frickin arrogant and spiteful that he won't take his hand out of the jar. He's going to keep doing his thing until he strikes gold, just so he can say "I told you so!". He wants to have the last laugh and its at our expense. To me, that's not an owner who loves the team or is grateful to the fans. That's an owner that charges money to watch a team practice.... He's a jerk, I can't stand him but I do give him credit for changing however grudgingly it may be...

I enjoy the fact that this stuff eats at his soul...because for those of his who love this team, his stupid actions eat at us. I don't Snyder loves or appreciates me anymore than I think Micrsoft loves me for buying a Xbox. He cares about my money and to him, I flip the bird.

If it was not for posts like this one from oneof the mods, I would be very suspicious about the origin of the funding for this site. Extreme Skins Jr anybody?

Just kidding. Just kidding.

Seriously though, Joe is the BEST Head Coach I can think of for my TEAM. He created character and spirit out of low self-esteem and disarray. The difference between versions I and II is that there were people like Bobby Beathard, Art Monk and the Hogs to help him the first time around.

Joe -never- was a recruiter of players. They were handed to him and he made the best out of them and the TEAM as a coach.

The true difference between Gibbs I and Gibbs II is:

Mr. Jack K Cooke v. Danny 'the clown' Snyder.

Redskin in Canada wrote:funding for this site.

Funding? Damn. Where have I been?

Damn the only compensation I've gotten was this awesome avatar...what am I missing?

Redskin in Canada wrote:If it was not for posts like this one from oneof the mods, I would be very suspicious about the origin of the funding for this site. Extreme Skins Jr anybody?

Actually, I am secretly Vinny Cerrato, working to ferrett out season ticket holders who aren't properly loyal to Lord Snyder. Once you are discovered, I take your tickets away and provide them to one of the properly loyal subjects on the waiting list. Oh, wait, the waiting list is almost gone. Keep your tickets, and anybody who is on the list that is offered tickets but doesn't take them, we'll keep you on the list too so it looks longer than it is.

While I'm dispensing secrets, I'll tell you the real reason Gibbs returned. I threatened his racing team. I said that if he didn't come back for at least four years, I would convince Snyder to buy Gibbs Racing and run it as efficiently at the Redskins and Six Flags. Fearing the destruction of his team, Gibbs returned to coaching. Don't tell Lord Snyder - he still thinks it is because he is a good owner that people like working for.

RIC says:

The true difference between Gibbs I and Gibbs II is:

Mr. Jack K Cooke v. Danny 'the clown' Snyder.

Perhaps...

Frankly, I don't know that there is that much difference between Cooke and Snyder.

The difference was Beathard... and no real free agency... and no salary caps... and "taxi squads"... and stashing quality backups on IR... and a coach who hadn't been out of the game for over 15 years... and, knowing how to take advantage of player strikes...

Countertrey wrote:RIC says:

The true difference between Gibbs I and Gibbs II is:

Mr. Jack K Cooke v. Danny 'the clown' Snyder.

Perhaps...

Frankly, I don't know that there is that much difference between Cooke and Snyder.

The difference was Beathard... and no real free agency... and no salary caps... and "taxi squads"... and stashing quality backups on IR... and a coach who hadn't been out of the game for over 15 years... and, knowing how to take advantage of player strikes...

The difference in owners is big. Cooke was smart enough to hire football men & let them run the team. Snyder isn't.

yupchagee wrote:

Countertrey wrote:RIC says:

The true difference between Gibbs I and Gibbs II is:

Mr. Jack K Cooke v. Danny 'the clown' Snyder.

Perhaps...

Frankly, I don't know that there is that much difference between Cooke and Snyder.

The difference was Beathard... and no real free agency... and no salary caps... and "taxi squads"... and stashing quality backups on IR... and a coach who hadn't been out of the game for over 15 years... and, knowing how to take advantage of player strikes...

The difference in owners is big. Cooke was smart enough to hire football men & let them run the team. Snyder isn't.

I agree with Trey.

Countertrey wrote:RIC says:

The true difference between Gibbs I and Gibbs II is:

Mr. Jack K Cooke v. Danny 'the clown' Snyder.

Perhaps...

Frankly, I don't know that there is that much difference between Cooke and Snyder.

This is CRAP!

But the following is true

Countertrey wrote:The difference was Beathard... and no real free agency... and no salary caps... and "taxi squads"... and stashing quality backups on IR... and a coach who hadn't been out of the game for over 15 years... and, knowing how to take advantage of player strikes...

And the, oh my Lord, THAT is the difference!!!

The second, as yupchagee has wisely pointed out, is ... surprise, surprise ... drum roll please ...

Jack Kent Cooke KNEW how to delegate and find REAL NFL experts to do the RIGHT GM management job!!!


FOR YEARS, we have said that this is the point of contention!!!

I will even grant that individually as a human being some of you may have preference for one over the other BUT as NFL owners goes JKC has THREE Lombardi Trophies to show against the dismal record of Danny 'the clown-NFL expert-egomaniac' Snyder!!!

I could care less about Snyder AS LONG AS somebody knowledgeable manages the TEAM!!!

That is all for God's sake. Snyder can keep the profits he can try to clean the fans out of every penny and still become the most arrogant and self-centered human being on the planet and I could care LESS!!!

As long as he steps away from giving us his expertise and the expertise of his sidekick uncle Vinny, we will be fine.

Let real NFL people do NFL work. That is all.

Cerrato played college football at Iowa State University, where he played quarterback and wide receiver.

Before the NFL, Cerrato served as the football recruiting coordinator under Lou Holtz at the University of Notre Dame. During that time, the Irish played in four Bowl games and won the 1988 NCAA National Championship.

Prior to joining the Redskins, Cerrato was with the San Francisco 49ers for nine seasons. He joined San Francisco in 1991 as the Director of College Scouting, helping to draft players including Ted Washington, Ricky Watters, Terrell Owens, Dana Stubblefield and Bryant Young. In 1994, he was part of the Super Bowl XXIX Championship team. In 1995, Cerrato was promoted to Director of Player Personnel, overseeing all college scouting and draft activities as well as pro scouting of NFL players and opponents.

He's now spent eight years with the Redskins.

I completely understand that some don't like him or don't think he's done well with the Redskins. But to say he has no football or NFL experience is ludicrous and completely inaccurate. He's been in a GM role for only two years now with the Skins, and so far, he's done pretty well.

SkinsFreak wrote:I completely understand that some don't like him or don't think he's done well with the Redskins. But to say he has no football or NFL experience is ludicrous and completely inaccurate. He's been in a GM role for only two years now with the Skins, and so far, he's done pretty well.

EXPERTISE not equal to EXPERIENCE

Expertise

ex·per·tise
Pronunciation:\ˌek-(ˌ)spər-ˈtēz, -ˈtēs\
Function:noun
Etymology:French, from Middle French, expertness, from expert
Date:1868
1 : expert opinion or commentary
2 : the skill of an expert

Experience

Main Entry:1ex·pe·ri·ence
Pronunciation:\ik-ˈspir-ē-ən(t)s\
Function:noun
Etymology:Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin experientia act of trying, from experient-, experiens, present participle of experiri to try, from ex- + -periri (akin to periculum attempt) — more at fear
Date:14th century
1 a: direct observation of or participation in events as a basis of knowledge b: the fact or state of having been affected by or gained knowledge through direct observation or participation
2 a: practical knowledge, skill, or practice derived from direct observation of or participation in events or in a particular activity b: the length of such participation <has 10 years' experience in the job>
3 a: the conscious events that make up an individual life b: the events that make up the conscious past of a community or nation or humankind generally
4: something personally encountered, undergone, or lived through
5: the act or process of directly perceiving events or reality

He has no expertise based on the track record, not on our opinion.

The experience has been quite negative as the record shows.

Let the RECORD speak for himself instead of apologizing for BOTH of these clowns.

I don’t think Vinny gets to make many decisions by him self but for the sake of this argument let’s assume he’s the man…How many coaches have to get fired before you realize it’s not the coaching??? Shouldn’t Vinny go before Zorn??

DEHog wrote:I don’t think Vinny gets to make many decisions by him self but for the sake of this argument let’s assume he’s the man…How many coaches have to get fired before you realize it’s not the coaching??? Shouldn’t Vinny go before Zorn??

Vinny has been involved with scouting and recruiting during his tenure here. It's only been the past two years since he's been in a "GM" position. Was Gibbs fired or did he simply retire for the 2nd time? I've been pretty busy at work the past few weeks... has Zorn been recently fired?

Redskin in Canada wrote:Let the RECORD speak for himself instead of apologizing for BOTH of these clowns.

Stupid post of the year award.

So me where I've made any apology for either.

You said... "Let real NFL people do NFL work. That is all."

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:I don’t think Vinny gets to make many decisions by him self but for the sake of this argument let’s assume he’s the man…How many coaches have to get fired before you realize it’s not the coaching??? Shouldn’t Vinny go before Zorn??

Vinny has been involved with scouting and recruiting during his tenure here. It's only been the past two years since he's been in a "GM" position. Was Gibbs fired or did he simply retire for the 2nd time? I've been pretty busy at work the past few weeks... has Zorn been recently fired?

Come on SF you can do better than that!! You know my point is that Vinny has been here since DS brought the team....with the exception of Marty who fired him....my point is how many coaches have to fail before we look at Vinny??

DEHog wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:I don’t think Vinny gets to make many decisions by him self but for the sake of this argument let’s assume he’s the man…How many coaches have to get fired before you realize it’s not the coaching??? Shouldn’t Vinny go before Zorn??

Vinny has been involved with scouting and recruiting during his tenure here. It's only been the past two years since he's been in a "GM" position. Was Gibbs fired or did he simply retire for the 2nd time? I've been pretty busy at work the past few weeks... has Zorn been recently fired?

Come on SF you can do better than that!! You know my point is that Vinny has been here since DS brought the team....with the exception of Marty who fired him....my point is how many coaches have to fail before we look at Vinny??

I simply offered facts about Vinny's prior experience, as some continue to assert that he has none.

Before he was promoted, he was simply employed in the field of scouting and recruiting, something he excelled at with the 9er's and when he worked for Lou Holtz. He was promoted by those organizations as well, after they won championships.

He's only been "the man" in DC for two years and no coaches have been fired during that time. That's all I'm suggesting. Further, there's overwhelming evidence that many coaches had more influence on player acquisitions prior to his promotion to VP, or the acting GM. It is MY OPINION that since he's been the man for the past two years, he's done fairly well. This will be the 2nd season that he's been the man, so I'll reserve judgment on his "GM skills" until after this season has been played.

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:I don’t think Vinny gets to make many decisions by him self but for the sake of this argument let’s assume he’s the man…How many coaches have to get fired before you realize it’s not the coaching??? Shouldn’t Vinny go before Zorn??

Vinny has been involved with scouting and recruiting during his tenure here. It's only been the past two years since he's been in a "GM" position. Was Gibbs fired or did he simply retire for the 2nd time? I've been pretty busy at work the past few weeks... has Zorn been recently fired?

Come on SF you can do better than that!! You know my point is that Vinny has been here since DS brought the team....with the exception of Marty who fired him....my point is how many coaches have to fail before we look at Vinny??

I simply offered facts about Vinny's prior experience, as some continue to assert that he has none.

Before he was promoted, he was simply employed in the field of scouting and recruiting, something he excelled at with the 9er's and when he worked for Lou Holtz. He was promoted by those organizations as well, after they won championships.

He's only been "the man" in DC for two years and no coaches have been fired during that time. That's all I'm suggesting. Further, there's overwhelming evidence that many coaches had more influence on player acquisitions prior to his promotion to VP, or the acting GM. It is MY OPINION that since he's been the man for the past two years, he's done fairly well. This will be the 2nd season that he's been the man, so I'll reserve judgment on his "GM skills" until after this season has been played.

Quite plausible, SkinsFreak. I think I'll join you on that reservation.

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

DEHog wrote:I don’t think Vinny gets to make many decisions by him self but for the sake of this argument let’s assume he’s the man…How many coaches have to get fired before you realize it’s not the coaching??? Shouldn’t Vinny go before Zorn??

Vinny has been involved with scouting and recruiting during his tenure here. It's only been the past two years since he's been in a "GM" position. Was Gibbs fired or did he simply retire for the 2nd time? I've been pretty busy at work the past few weeks... has Zorn been recently fired?

Come on SF you can do better than that!! You know my point is that Vinny has been here since DS brought the team....with the exception of Marty who fired him....my point is how many coaches have to fail before we look at Vinny??

I simply offered facts about Vinny's prior experience, as some continue to assert that he has none.

Before he was promoted, he was simply employed in the field of scouting and recruiting, something he excelled at with the 9er's and when he worked for Lou Holtz. He was promoted by those organizations as well, after they won championships.

He's only been "the man" in DC for two years and no coaches have been fired during that time. That's all I'm suggesting. Further, there's overwhelming evidence that many coaches had more influence on player acquisitions prior to his promotion to VP, or the acting GM. It is MY OPINION that since he's been the man for the past two years, he's done fairly well. This will be the 2nd season that he's been the man, so I'll reserve judgment on his "GM skills" until after this season has been played.

I can understand your point here. But if you want to count his prior experience, you also have to include his experience in Washington. He may not have had final say, but he has been the only consistent person involved in acquiring talent, aside from Snyder. The record during that time has not been good.

If you only want to look at last year and this year, I agree it is too early to tell. The early returns are not good for two reasons: 1) Last years draft class has, to date, only produced one player that contributes. Hopefully this will change quickly, or this year will be terrible. 2) They still appear willing to mortgage the future and sacrifice depth for the "big name". Last years pursuit of Chad Johnson, this year for Cutler, then Sanchez. Also including giving Haynesworth a huge contract to fill one hole instead of filling multiple holes with several players. I am excluding the Jason Taylor move here, which turned out horribly, but I think a lot of people agreed with it at the time. I did.

I think 1) is a function of Vinny not being a very good talent evaluator outside the early first round, where you should not miss. In all that time, the only top player I am aware of drafted outside the first round by Vinny is T.O. I would also include ey in that if you are giving him credit during Gibbs2. Number 2) appears to be a function of Daniel Snyder and Vinny's unwillingness/inability to stand up to him. This one is not necessary Cerrato's fault - he likely would lose his job if he ever truly stands up to Snyder.

SkinsFreak wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote:Let the RECORD speak for himself instead of apologizing for BOTH of these clowns.

Stupid post of the year award.

So me where I've made any apology for either.

You said... "Let real NFL people do NFL work. That is all."

You people have turned the word ...

APOLOGIST

... into a bad word in this board.

Hey Freak, I guess you had to learn the difference between EXPERTISE and EXPERIENCE. Vinny has EXPERIENCE, I will give you that, BAD experience that is but that is another story ...

SnyderSucks wrote:They still appear willing to mortgage the future and sacrifice depth for the "big name". Last years pursuit of Chad Johnson, this year for Cutler, then Sanchez.

But the fact that they didn't make any of those deals totally contradicts your premise.

I said nothing about Vinny's experience...My question is at what point do you look at the FO instead of the coach...If Zorn misses the PO this year you know he's out...what about Vinny...Are you saying DS has not had enough time to evaluate him??