The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

tcwest10 wrote:'Dan and Vinny in a nutshell'...an appropriate container for them.

The nutcracker.

Fios wrote:This is one of the worst posts I've read in some time ... but why bother with nuance and facts when you can just paint it as an us versus them scenario?

Stick around the company and see what happens after a few years of consistent frustration ...

I -DO- wonder what excuses will the apologists and defenders of this pair find when the Skins fail yet AGAIN to win the NFC East?

Just read the thread again, the adjectives NEGATIVE and STUPID are not contained in my posts. I donot treat other posters in that way.

It does not matter how this argument is painted, you can find me at one extreme of the argument and I accept that. But there are others here that basically share my SAME views and just have the subtle and tactful approach to say it nice to you SkinsJock (cough) DEHog (cough), and a few others.

Sad thing is, the truth is on OUR SIDE and not on the SIDE of the apologists in various tones.

Glad this is being done over a board, things could really get a bit more heated in person.

Cooter wrote:Usually when I don't like something, I stop supporting it, but that's just me.

I am a loyal supporter of the Washington Redskins, perhaps even before Dan Snyder was born.

This is MY team. He simply stole it from the fans and he is well in the process to make his name a laughingstoke and a perennial mediocrity of our team in the NFC East.

The fact that some posters cannot differentiate between the owner and the team is not my problem. We could even love many fabulous Redskins from the George Preston Marshall era and still regard that man as a despicable bigot and a clueless owner.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

Fios wrote:This is one of the worst posts I've read in some time ... but why bother with nuance and facts when you can just paint it as an us versus them scenario?

Stick around the company and see what happens after a few years of consistent frustration ...

I -DO- wonder what excuses will the apologists and defenders of this pair find when the Skins fail yet AGAIN to win the NFC East?

Just read the thread again, the adjectives NEGATIVE and STUPID are not contained in my posts. I donot treat other posters in that way.

It does not matter how this argument is painted, you can find me at one extreme of the argument and I accept that. But there are others here that basically share my SAME views and just have the subtle and tactful approach to say it nice to you SkinsJock (cough) DEHog (cough), and a few others.

Sad thing is, the truth is on OUR SIDE and not on the SIDE of the apologists in various tones.

Glad this is being done over a board, things could really get a bit more heated in person.

and just when I was starting to distance myself from you

But seriously the Skins FO continues to make our point. As I’ve said many times Snyder will probably end up wining while doing things “his” way. I find myself in an awkward spot because I do root for and want the Skins to win, but at the same time I feel any wining Snyder does will be short lived. I want a philosophical change in the way our FO does business, if DS wins doing it his way that change may never come. I don’t think its rocket science to look around the league and see what the wining formula looks like. If I were Snyder I’d be pissed with the product I see on the field when compared to the money I put out…You’d think he’d learn!! For those of you defending Vinny come on…most of the time we ask what’s it going to take to keep your job, with Vinny it’s what it going to take to lose it?? Take a look at what DS had done…everyone says he let Gibbs and Marty have full control…OK throw out those years. When he brought the team it was too late to make any real changes…that’s the only team that won the division under DS…but hey I’ll give him credit…how’s he done otherwise? We all kid ourselves and say well at least he not JJ, but one thing I’ll give JJ credit for…he doesn’t hide behind a puppet GM.

DEHog wrote:and just when I was starting to distance myself from you

I myself suscribe to every word in your post. So much for distancing from the views of one another.

Look DE, let us face it:

Some posters and fans feel that a criticism of the way the FO has been run for years under DS is an attack against the Skins. It is not. It is actually painful and frustrating to see that a few simple but important steps could allow this team to regain its glory days.

It is because we LOVE our team and we want it to truly succeed that we go to great lengths to prove that the owner and his FO are not capable to deliver a Superbowl Champion simply because they do not have the knowledge and they allow their egoes to run amok.

Our message is not pretty. We are forecasting failure if things continue in this path. That conviction runs precisely AGAINST the natural hopes and sincere expectations for success of many faithful season after season after season ...

And of course things are not desperate. The Skins are not the Lions and hopefully they will never be. But the mediocrity and incompetence of the FO prevents the Team from reaching the heights that we once knew.

I would be at peace with your fear of "temporary success". It will not happen. The Skins will not win championships under the current management scenario but they will not also fall to the bottom of the standings in the NFL. They will be there "in the middle" right about where mediocrity is defined.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

DEHog wrote:and just when I was starting to distance myself from you

I myself suscribe to every word in your post. So much for distancing from the views of one another.

Look DE, let us face it:

Some posters and fans feel that a criticism of the way the FO has been run for years under DS is an attack against the Skins. It is not. It is actually painful and frustrating to see that a few simple but important steps could allow this team to regain its glory days.

It is because we LOVE our team and we want it to truly succeed that we go to great lengths to prove that the owner and his FO are not capable to deliver a Superbowl Champion simply because they do not have the knowledge and they allow their egoes to run amok.

Our message is not pretty. We are forecasting failure if things continue in this path. That conviction runs precisely AGAINST the natural hopes and sincere expectations for success of many faithful season after season after season ...

And of course things are not desperate. The Skins are not the Lions and hopefully they will never be. But the mediocrity and incompetence of the FO prevents the Team from reaching the heights that we once knew.

I would be at peace with your fear of "temporary success". It will not happen. The Skins will not win championships under the current management scenario but they will not also fall to the bottom of the standings in the NFL. They will be there "in the middle" right about where mediocrity is defined.

I am right there with you Redskin in Canada except the last two lines. I think we can win despite our FO. Were really are very close to winning. Just need a plug here and there and we can make a run at least. 2 years Redskin in Canada and we will make a real run if we can keep our coach and most of the players we have now.

Redskin in Canada wrote:The Skins will not win championships under the current management scenario but they will not also fall to the bottom of the standings in the NFL. They will be there "in the middle" right about where mediocrity is defined.

They seem to be on the 8-8 path and all that varies from year-to-year are the intangibles -- lucky bounces, injuries, advantageous scheduling -- and those are what determines if the record is as good as 10-6 or as bad as 6-10.

Redskin in Canada wrote:This is MY team.

I love this team too, but it is not MY team nor yours. This is Daniel Snyder's team, and the Redskins have never been a publicly owned team. I understand your frustration (mine is not as intense), but the constant negative outlook isn't going to change anything. It's not like the Redskins take customer survey's to improve their decisions/performance. My point is not to follow blindly, but enjoy and love the team that you're passionate about.

Redskin in Canada wrote:He simply stole it from the fans and he is well in the process to make his name a laughingstoke and a perennial mediocrity of our team in the NFC East.

If he makes his name the laughing stock then that's his problem. I don't like mediocrity, but just to play devil's advocate, the mediocre teams the NFC East have produced are a lot better/tougher then the rest of the NFC and have performed well in the playoffs.

Redskin in Canada wrote:The fact that some posters cannot differentiate between the owner and the team is not my problem. We could even love many fabulous Redskins from the George Preston Marshall era and still regard that man as a despicable bigot and a clueless owner.

The fact is that we do understand the difference, but we decide not to beat the dead horse, over, over, over, and again.

I think Cooter's on to something. It was hard for me to actually realize why I dread some peoples' postings.

Posts can be well thought out and intelligent. These people are, for mte most part, intelligent and able to hold a good conversation. The problem is that it's the tone of a significant portion of the posts. They have negative connotations/intents and over time, that's the general predisposition associated with posts under these usernames. Not all of the posts are negative, but enough where this happens.

The apologetics or defenders or whatever the other side of the FO haters are called these days aren't necessarily disagreeing with anyone voicing their utter disgust for the FO. Hell, some of us dispise them just as much as the verbal FO haters.

The difference is that the incessant beating of this horse is dull and there's nothing new or breaking that warrants dozens of pages of going over the same points every few months. Granted, this is just my humble opinion, but the sky is not falling and we are not doomed to trade history with the Lions due to the FO.

The glass isn't 1/2 empty all the time to all of us.

The fact is that we do understand the difference, but we decide not to beat the dead horse, over, over, over, and again.

How can Snyder be a “dead horse” as long as he owns the team he will continue to be a topic of discussion…good/bad/indifferent. Champ Bailey is a dead horse

DEHog wrote: Champ Bailey is a dead horse

Naw...he just plays like one.

VetSkinsFan wrote:The difference is that the incessant beating of this horse is dull and there's nothing new or breaking that warrants dozens of pages of going over the same points every few months. Granted, this is just my humble opinion, but the sky is not falling and we are not doomed to trade history with the Lions due to the FO.

The glass isn't 1/2 empty all the time to all of us.

Trust me:

1. We have absolutely no pleasure whatsoever in repeating this argument over and over again. Each time that it is brought up, it is precisely because something incompetent was done by the FO. I did not start this thread.

2. The issue arises in the minds of various posters because the issue is alive and present. It is made a current and present issue after every dumb move. There is no escape from it as long as the fundamentals at the FO do not change.

3. You can object to my tone and words but you seem to accept the fact that most people agree with the fundamental premises about the incompetence of the owner vis-a-vis his direct involvement in key decisions whether they are at the Front Office personnel selection or players and coaches that affect performance on the field.

4. So, people can call Jason Campbell or any other player any adjectives ranging from Superbowl-caliber to downright useless and that is OK. But if some of us use what you perceive as negative language against the Danny and his cousin Vinny, you seem to feel uncomfortable. Nothing I can do about that.

5. To some of us, the MOST important problem confronting this team and impeding its success is the lack of a good Front Office. Cooter raised an interesting point about the good performance of the NFC East. He is right. Teams in this Conference are very tough and it is precisely for this reason that teams compete from top to bottom against one another. Front Offices compete against the other Front Offices to put the best personnel on the field. Do you think that our FO is truly competitive with the others? We ended up even behind the Pukes during the past season notwithstanding the great efforts made thankfully by Jerry Jones to destroy his team and the legacy left by Parcells!

But in the end, if any moderator has serious objections maybe not in the Rules but just in the tone of the discussions that are held on this subject, all they need to say is a single word: LEAVE! I would stop posting and leave the board if it is that annoying to other posters or the good nature of the board.

The glass can be 1/2 empty or 1/2 full all the time to all of us. THAT is the problem: perennial MEDIOCRITY.

VetSkinsFan wrote:The difference is that the incessant beating of this horse is dull and there's nothing new or breaking that warrants dozens of pages of going over the same points every few months. Granted, this is just my humble opinion, but the sky is not falling and we are not doomed to trade history with the Lions due to the FO.

The glass isn't 1/2 empty all the time to all of us.

Redskin in Canada wrote:Trust me:
1. We have absolutely no pleasure whatsoever in repeating this argument over and over again. Each time that it is brought up, it is precisely because something incompetent was done by the FO. I did not start this thread.

It surely appears to be different to some posters. If they can't be negative, then their post count is significantly reduced voluntarily. A lot of the terminally negative weren't around very much weeks 1-8 last year.

Redskin in Canada wrote:2. The issue arises in the minds of various posters because the issue is alive and present. It is made a current and present issue after every dumb move. There is no escape from it as long as the fundamentals at the FO do not change.

Chastising the same people for very similar and common actions isn't going to change anything. You think anyone on this board has any influence over the FO? Venting frustration over every little nuance detracts from the positive THN experience.

Redskin in Canada wrote:3. You can object to my tone and words but you seem to accept the fact that most people agree with the fundamental premises about the incompetence of the owner vis-a-vis his direct involvement in key decisions whether they are at the Front Office personnel selection or players and coaches that affect performance on the field.

I don't see where I've called RiC and only RiC out. If that was perceived, it certainly was not my intent.

I do see it and I even agree on some points concerning the FO, but I believe in giving each circumstance enough rope to hang or rescue itself. For example, there's no reason to call Thomas or Kelly busts after one year when the whole offense didn't even have a complete off-season. Rarely do rooks go to the ProBowl in their first season; this doesn't mean they're busts.

Redskin in Canada wrote:4. So, people can call Jason Campbell or any other player any adjectives ranging from Superbowl-caliber to downright useless and that is OK. But if some of us use what you perceive as negative language against the Danny and his cousin Vinny, you seem to feel uncomfortable. Nothing I can do about that.

Very nice generalization. If you read these boards as I suspect you do, it's very well known that statement is complete BS.

Redskin in Canada wrote:5. To some of us, the MOST important problem confronting this team and impeding its success is the lack of a good Front Office. Cooter raised an interesting point about the good performance of the NFC East. He is right. Teams in this Conference are very tough and it is precisely for this reason that teams compete from top to bottom against one another. Front Offices compete against the other Front Offices to put the best personnel on the field. Do you think that our FO is truly competitive with the others? We ended up even behind the Pukes during the past season notwithstanding the great efforts made thankfully by Jerry Jones to destroy his team and the legacy left by Parcells!

The FO needs to do what is necessary to get the best players that fit the scheme on the field. If their priority is to keep up with the Joneses, then that's wrong in itself. It is obvious that the NFL is a king of the mountain league, but each FO has to work within its own parameters, not cheating off the guy in front of them.

Redskin in Canada wrote:But in the end, if any moderator has serious objections maybe not in the Rules but just in the tone of the discussions that are held on this subject, all they need to say is a single word: LEAVE! I would stop posting and leave the board if it is that annoying to other posters or the good nature of the board.

Nowhere was this thread addressed by me as staff. We as staff have the same rights to express an opinion as any member subscribed to this board.

Redskin in Canada wrote:The glass can be 1/2 empty or 1/2 full all the time to all of us. THAT is the problem: perennial MEDIOCRITY.

My point was simply this: There is both good and bad on this team. By posting history, some people appear to think otherwise.

I put this post up with the pic for some humor on the board . I have been a member here for about three or four years something like that. I stayed away for a long time because there where some really,really rude posters on here and one in particular that I could not stand!! I think he was even a moderator not saying any names but I have not seen a post from him in a really long time so I decided to come back .

The one thing that I still notice which I do not see on other message boards to a degree it's done here is how you guys still dissect stuff, quote this quote that damn it's so funny.I guess what I'm trying to say is come up with your own thoughts and material, stop attacking all the time and be polite to other posters and stay on topic!! You will find things will be a lot more enjoyable!!! Have fun for Gods sake!!

I still think dumb and dumber is incredibly funny and fits the front office to a tee!!I can't wait to see what happens if Campbell performs really good this year and his contract runs out after this season. What then Danny boy???? You think Campbell will remember something!!Lol

skinpride1 wrote::up: I put this post up with the pic for some humor on the board . I have been a member here for about three or four years something like that. I stayed away for a long time because there where some really,really rude posters on here and one in particular that I could not stand!! I think he was even a moderator not saying any names but I have not seen a post from him in a really long time so I decided to come back .

The one thing that I still notice which I do not see on other message boards to a degree it's done here is how you guys still dissect stuff, quote this quote that damn it's so funny.I guess what I'm trying to say is come up with your own thoughts and material, stop attacking all the time and be polite to other posters and stay on topic!! You will find things will be a lot more enjoyable!!! Have fun for Gods sake!!

I still think dumb and dumber is incredibly funny and fits the front office to a tee!!I can't wait to see what happens if Campbell performs really good this year and his contract runs out after this season. What then Danny boy???? You think Campbell will remember something!!Lol

shhhh dont mention dumb and dumber. You will get this thread riled again

By the way welcome back skinpride1

Thanks Kilmer72!!!feels good to be back.

same thing for me skinpride1. I have been on this forum for awhile, but the last year and a half or so I stopped coming here because it's so damn negative sometimes. I've learned to temper my expectations quite a bit and it's amazing how it changes your view of the team, players, etc...

It makes it much more fun to watch the team in both good and bad times. I find it to hard not discussing the redskins at least sometimes though, so apparently I'm back!

btw, I went to my first redskins game last season at Seattle. It was frickin great!!!

even tho we barely won lol

Good deal Scottskin.Good to know I'm not the only one that feels that way !!!I see that your user name looks familiar and to my knowledge you have always been a respectful poster.I see that you don't quote everything someone posts.Yes very good!!!

For the most part people are really great here skinpride1. I do not know what it was like back in 2004 but I haven't been here long either. There is a knuckle head or 3 out there but for the most part people here are polite. Check out extremeskins...I will probably catch a bad time for saying that name but they are on you even if you are 1 yard off. Over here you really do not have to worry about being slightly off your stats. As far as quotes go that is the way it is set up and the way the rules go. Check your mail skinpride1.

Hey...Hey...Hey you guys are getting way off topic can we please get back to the Snyder bashing

Welcome back skinspride and Scottskins. Unfortunately, Redskin fans tend to be on the negative side, at least in my experience. Then again, the team doesn't always give us things to be positive about.

As far as quoting and breaking down discussions, I know what you mean in regards to people quoting each line of a post and responding out of context some times, but I like the amount of discussion that takes place here, and I think that people really get in-depth here like no other. Sometimes, the best way to discuss a long post is to break it down into thoughts and address each one.

I guess I prefer over-analysis to under-analysis.

JansenFan wrote:I guess I prefer over-analysis to under-analysis.

Well, let us indulge Mr. JansenFan:

VetSkinsFan wrote:It surely appears to be different to some posters. If they can't be negative, then their post count is significantly reduced voluntarily. A lot of the terminally negative weren't around very much weeks 1-8 last year.

You are right the BEST medicine against negativity is success. Unfortunately, we have not had enough medicine over a long while. THAT is the problem. The critics have no case if there is no case to be made. In the meantime ...

VetSkinsFan wrote:Chastising the same people for very similar and common actions isn't going to change anything. You think anyone on this board has any influence over the FO? Venting frustration over every little nuance detracts from the positive THN experience.

The first part is the ONE I do not get. Are you telling me that discussing, criticising, commenting, being positive or negative about ANY OTHER part of the organization changes ANYTHING? How come? I thought we were expectators of the performance of the Skins from the Front Office through the whole organization down to the field. What makes criticism or praise to the Front Office different than any other part of the Team in this board?

The second part, I get. That is why I stay away from the board. I do not wish to affect your experience but EVERY once in a while something really stupid is made and the whole issue comes back again.

VetSkinsFan wrote:I don't see where I've called RiC and only RiC out. If that was perceived, it certainly was not my intent.

I accept and I am grateful for your view. However, this is not the reading I get around here from other posters and particularly other mods. All is within the rules but there is no question in my mind that my posts on this subject annoy them and many of those posts made by them are charged with emotion and adjectives that are a reaction to my frustration.

I have a thick skin. I just do not see how or why more people are not up in arms against the FO. Most players and coaches would have been fired by now for similar performance and the fans would have booed them out of town.

VetSkinsFan wrote:I do see it and I even agree on some points concerning the FO, but I believe in giving each circumstance enough rope to hang or rescue itself. For example, there's no reason to call Thomas or Kelly busts after one year when the whole offense didn't even have a complete off-season. Rarely do rooks go to the Pro-Bowl in their first season; this doesn't mean they're busts.

If mistakes were ISOLATED events. If each case did not show a PATTERN. If you saw enough of a light at the end of the tunnel to show you that things have fundamentally changed, I would be onboard. Hell, it is a lot more fun to be on board in the bandwagon!

But when this behaviour is REPEATED, not once, twice or just several times, but it becomes the landmark of the Front Office to keep a team in perennial mediocrity, I expect and demand MORE and BETTER performance.

It is UNFAIR to a great extent to judge the performance of players and coaches in a harsher manner than the FO. That is where leadership and the correct delegation of responsibilities starts.

VetSkinsFan wrote:Very nice generalization. If you read these boards as I suspect you do, it's very well known that statement is complete BS.

Why? I am convinced that there has been more criticism and scrutiny against Jason and more accountability from him to the media and fans than the Front Office. I do not feel that JC is the guy that is going to lead this team to success for a number of reasons but I ADMIRE the integrity and professionalism of that man probably like no other in the team. JC is a professional at a time when most players are spoiled millionaire brats. He is a MAN among many brats in the NFL. Cutler (cough) Cutler (cough) Cutler (cough).

VetSkinsFan wrote:The FO needs to do what is necessary to get the best players that fit the scheme on the field. If their priority is to keep up with the Joneses, then that's wrong in itself. It is obvious that the NFL is a king of the mountain league, but each FO has to work within its own parameters, not cheating off the guy in front of them.

I never said that this FO needs to COPY another one. IT does COMPETE with the others as much as the team does. BUT ...

What is the scheme of the Redskins? I ask this question seriously. This is a SERIOUS question because we have had more coach changes than Elizabeth Taylor changed husbands!!!

We all are praying or WONDERING if Zorn is going to be given the time to succeed here. I HOPE he does. But would it surprise you if there is a CHANGE of scheme at the end of next season if the season does not go well?

I am willing to bet that he is gone if he ends up with another 8-8 or less.

So much for fitting ... What scheme???

Nowhere was this thread addressed by me as staff. We as staff have the same rights to express an opinion as any member subscribed to this board.

Point taken and gratefully accepted.

VetSkinsFan wrote:My point was simply this: There is both good and bad on this team. By posting history, some people appear to think otherwise.

There is ENOUGH good in this team to balance the old wood in this team. There is enough good quality to be competitive in the NFC East. There is enough good to get us excited as fans and cheer for them with some ray of hope every season. There is also enough snake oil spread around true pro-bowl talent in this team.

There is always enough good to balance the bad and impede both the total failure -and- the full success of this team in one of the most highly competitive sports leagues in the world. And THAT will NEVER EVER cut it to win a championship in the NFC East.

The whole point of my argument is that COMPETITION starts at FO level and follows down through the organization and down onto the field from there. We are not a Championship team because we have a FO which is incapable and does not have the knowledge and competence to deliver a Championship team.

And you are right, I do not have anything that I can do about changing ANYTHING about this team, EXCEPT make my rationale and voice known about it.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

JansenFan wrote:I guess I prefer over-analysis to under-analysis.

Well, let us indulge Mr. JansenFan:

Why not

Redskin in Canada wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:It surely appears to be different to some posters. If they can't be negative, then their post count is significantly reduced voluntarily. A lot of the terminally negative weren't around very much weeks 1-8 last year.

You are right the BEST medicine against negativity is success. Unfortunately, we have not had enough medicine over a long while. THAT is the problem. The critics have no case if there is no case to be made. In the meantime ...

Some people just don't like medicine or even worst they are only looking for one drug. Getting to the Superbowl is the best medicine of all, it's like the strongest painkiller out there. If you can't get that specific painkiller, you can still ease the pain with another (not as strong) medicine, but some people refuse the medicine because the strongest painkiller out there is the only thing the want even though a mixture of other drugs (making the playoffs, taking a couple of years off in free agency, turn a draft with just a few picks and no first round pick into 8-9 rookies that made the rosters including two 2nd rounders) should have eased the pain.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:Chastising the same people for very similar and common actions isn't going to change anything. You think anyone on this board has any influence over the FO? Venting frustration over every little nuance detracts from the positive THN experience.

The first part is the ONE I do not get. Are you telling me that discussing, criticising, commenting, being positive or negative about ANY OTHER part of the organization changes ANYTHING? How come? I thought we were expectators of the performance of the Skins from the Front Office through the whole organization down to the field. What makes criticism or praise to the Front Office different than any other part of the Team in this board?

Criticism and praise go hand in hand, you have to pat the dog on the head every now and then (even if it's for not doing something wrong), but if you are always hitting it on the nose with a newspaper sooner or later he'll stop coming when you call him, then you have no discussing or commenting because it's always the same. At the same time you can't just pat him on the head (then again what else is there to do with a newspaper)

Redskin in Canada wrote:The second part, I get. That is why I stay away from the board. I do not wish to affect your experience but EVERY once in a while something really stupid is made and the whole issue comes back again.

Every once in a while something really smart is made and you still bring the whole issue back (back in the day CLL might beat you to it but I think he's getting a daily dose of Motrin to get by) and you come newspaper in hand.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:I don't see where I've called RiC and only RiC out. If that was perceived, it certainly was not my intent.

I accept and I am grateful for your view. However, this is not the reading I get around here from other posters and particularly other mods. All is within the rules but there is no question in my mind that my posts on this subject annoy them and many of those posts made by them are charged with emotion and adjectives that are a reaction to my frustration.

Not sure how you can group us all together Some of us rarely chime in on this subject (the old beating a dead horse thing) and Chris will never like the FO until there is a de facto GM or new ownership. In fact I think the THN staff would be close to right down the middle.

Redskin in Canada wrote:I have a thick skin. I just do not see how or why more people are not up in arms against the FO. Most players and coaches would have been fired by now for similar performance and the fans would have booed them out of town.

The coach just finished his first year and you want him fired for a 8-8 season

Redskin in Canada wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:I do see it and I even agree on some points concerning the FO, but I believe in giving each circumstance enough rope to hang or rescue itself. For example, there's no reason to call Thomas or Kelly busts after one year when the whole offense didn't even have a complete off-season. Rarely do rooks go to the Pro-Bowl in their first season; this doesn't mean they're busts.

If mistakes were ISOLATED events. If each case did not show a PATTERN. If you saw enough of a light at the end of the tunnel to show you that things have fundamentally changed, I would be onboard. Hell, it is a lot more fun to be on board in the bandwagon!

Rarely do they make the same mistakes so most could be called isolated, it's the number of mistakes should be more the issue. I'd be glad to see a pattern GOOD or BAD. There's always a light at the end of the tunnel, you don't need to see a lot of it all at once as long as you continue to see it (hopefully it will keep getting bigger). Some people don't even need to see a light and can find a way to see progress (we call them over-medicated)

Redskin in Canada wrote:But when this behaviour is REPEATED, not once, twice or just several times, but it becomes the landmark of the Front Office to keep a team in perennial mediocrity, I expect and demand MORE and BETTER performance.

To point out positives would only open the door for you to say I'm defending "the Danny" so if you want to point out this repeated behaviour (other than classifying everything as part of this behaviour )...

Redskin in Canada wrote:It is UNFAIR to a great extent to judge the performance of players and coaches in a harsher manner than the FO. That is where leadership and the correct delegation of responsibilities starts.

It's the players and coaches that are paid to perform, so why not.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:Very nice generalization. If you read these boards as I suspect you do, it's very well known that statement is complete BS.

Why? I am convinced that there has been more criticism and scrutiny against Jason and more accountability from him to the media and fans than the Front Office. I do not feel that JC is the guy that is going to lead this team to success for a number of reasons but I ADMIRE the integrity and professionalism of that man probably like no other in the team. JC is a professional at a time when most players are spoiled millionaire brats. He is a MAN among many brats in the NFL. Cutler (cough) Cutler (cough) Cutler (cough).

You forgot the part about him cost more than one draft pick

Redskin in Canada wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:The FO needs to do what is necessary to get the best players that fit the scheme on the field. If their priority is to keep up with the Joneses, then that's wrong in itself. It is obvious that the NFL is a king of the mountain league, but each FO has to work within its own parameters, not cheating off the guy in front of them.

I never said that this FO needs to COPY another one. IT does COMPETE with the others as much as the team does. BUT ...

What is the scheme of the Redskins? I ask this question seriously. This is a SERIOUS question because we have had more coach changes than Elizabeth Taylor changed husbands!!!

Coaches come and go Miami as had six since "the Danny" took over hear and T.O.'s former and present teams have had the same number of coaching changes as the Redskins, non of them hired a guy with the initials S.O.S thought

Redskin in Canada wrote:We all are praying or WONDERING if Zorn is going to be given the time to succeed here. I HOPE he does. But would it surprise you if there is a CHANGE of scheme at the end of next season if the season does not go well?

I am willing to bet that he is gone if he ends up with another 8-8 or less.

OK, Turner was from the old regime and new owners routinely bring in there own people yet he stay with Norv for almost two years, Robiskie was a fill in. Schottenheimer shouldn't have been fired and Spurrier shouldn't have been hired. Gibbs left on his own and Zorn should be around at least one more year

Redskin in Canada wrote:So much for fitting ... What scheme???

If the scheme had a identifiable name it would then have to be changed

1niksder wrote:
Some people just don't like medicine or even worst they are only looking for one drug. Getting to the Superbowl is the best medicine of all, it's like the strongest painkiller out there.

Man, Do you think that we want a Superbowl or nothing?

I would be happy with a consistent good performance for a few seasons and an NFC East championship every once in a while!!! I am asking for a ticket to the playoffs. I am not even expecting an NFC Championship or a Superbowl. Our collective expectations have been downgraded for over a decade!

Criticism and praise go hand in hand, you have to pat the dog on the head every now and then (even if it's for not doing something wrong), but if you are always hitting it on the nose with a newspaper sooner or later he'll stop coming when you call him, then you have no discussing or commenting because it's always the same. At the same time you can't just pat him on the head (then again what else is there to do with a newspaper)

We have had ALREADY enormous patience with the owner and his sidekick. So, if I hit the Front Office with a paper, he will stop coming??? You should have told me before!

Every once in a while something really smart is made and you still bring the whole issue back (back in the day CLL might beat you to it but I think he's getting a daily dose of Motrin to get by) and you come newspaper in hand.

CLL has seen the light. You guys obviously need a few more years of not so gentle persuasion by the FO. Some posters are quicker. Not everybody has to be quite as quick.

Not sure how you can group us all together Some of us rarely chime in on this subject (the old beating a dead horse thing) and Chris will never like the FO until there is a de facto GM or new ownership. In fact I think the THN staff would be close to right down the middle.

Bingo!!! And what is wrong with that???

The coach just finished his first year and you want him fired for a 8-8 season

Quite the opposite.

Rarely do they make the same mistakes so most could be called isolated, it's the number of mistakes should be more the issue.

???

It's the players and coaches that are paid to perform, so why not.

I did not know Vinny was a volunteer. Sorry.

You forgot the part about him cost more than one draft pick

I am not a JC superfan but even him has more potential to perform well than the FO ever will.

OK, Turner was from the old regime and new owners routinely bring in there own people yet he stay with Norv for almost two years, Robiskie was a fill in. Schottenheimer shouldn't have been fired and Spurrier shouldn't have been hired. Gibbs left on his own and Zorn should be around at least one more year

Are you KIDDING me? So almost NOBODY counts, right? Well, with that kind of accounting ANYTHING is possible.

If the scheme had a identifiable name it would then have to be changed

That seems to be scheme: the flavour of the day.