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Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:30 am
by Cappster
skinsfan#33 wrote:Skinsfan55 wrote:skinsfan#33 wrote:
SF55 are you serious? Do you really think JC's slow release (I'm not using quotes because he does have a slow release!) isn't a problem?
But his biggest problem is his slow decision making.
Team leader? Ha!
1.) If he had a slow release it would be a problem, but who says he does? Some armchair scout? My point was that amateur scouts sound ridiculous when they try to talk about a guys football skills. You aren't qualified to diagnose problems in an NFL quarterback's delivery.
2.)Again, you're not qualified to question his decision making. Maybe you've got more of a leg to stand on because it's so subjective and you watch the games... but you watch one angle... professionals watch all the angles and they can see all the options. When a team struggles like the Redskins no one looks like a star player, because nothing is clicking right, they aren't winning. If Jason Campbell is scrambling and can't find an open man, maybe there isn't one. Or maybe the open man is across the field which would be an ill advised pass. Statistically I say his decision making is good because he throws so few interceptions, and he played so well when the team was healthy.
3.)Every single thing I have ever read shows the unwavering support of the coaching staff (Joe Gibbs and Jim Zorn) and his fellow players. Football experts tout his leadership all the time. He's the unquestioned team leader. Seriously, to deny this you'd have to be ignorant of the facts. Do a GIS on Jason Campbell Leadership. you'll get bored before you find anything to the contrary.
Response to #1: Do you even watch the games? Of course he has a slow release. The first thing Zorn said when he came here was that he needed to speed Campbell up, but I don' need him to confirm what I have seen with mt own eyes. And yes I am more than qualified to use my eyes. Of course if I had my head buried in the sand or up my seat, then no I wouldn't be qualified.
Response #2: I wasn't talking about his overall play. About over throwing or under throwing the ball, I was talking about how long it take for him to make a decision. And anyone can see it takes him a LONG time to decide to do something.
He doesn't throw picks because he can't make up his mind where to go with the ball and just doesn't throw it. That leads to low INT#s, but also low TD #s, sound familiar. The guy has to be wide open for him to throw him the ball. He is late on getting the ball to him. Oh, yeah these are some of the types of things that Zorn said that JC had problems with on the "Jim Zorn" show, but he said it nicer than me.
Response #3: When it comes to leadership, the only thing I have ever heard the media do is question JCs leadership. I have never once heard media or former player say anything good about Campbell's leadership. Of course the coaches are going to say that he is a good leader, that is what are they supposed to say.
It is sad really, because he has all of the tools to be a good QB, he just needs to pull the trigger quicker
A lot of people have criticized Kerry Collins for his slow release, but the guy has been a successful quarterback in the league. I don't think JC's release is as slow as everyone makes it out to be. Go back and watch some games and compare him to other quarterbacks to see how slow it is. Don't forget JC can run and make plays with his feet. If Zorn wants to make good use of Campbell this year, he needs to make use of the play action roll out pass. Campbell is a perfect fit for that type of play.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:41 am
by skinz74
Deadskins wrote:Why is everyone convinced the rumors of us going after Cutler are true? JLC is a known liar, and Denver had cause to leak that we were in the market to up the asking price. I think if The Danny really had wanted him, he would be a Redskin right now.
I'm right there with ya, brother. I have gone as far (insert appropriate conspiracy theory...here) to consider this a ploy by the organization for draft day posturing. It wouldn't be unheard of for the FO to tell JC17 that they plan leaking to the media (specifically that tool jasno) of a "trade" and going as far to tell him that it is just a ploy. JC17 plays along with comments, etc., and the media swallows it like a pornstar.
I know this is pretty far fetched...but since none of us are flies on the wall, the possiblilities are endless on our intentions.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:52 am
by USAFSkinFan
The imbalance in this league never ceases to amaze me... Cutler, a QB with similar stats to JC is worth 2 #1 picks, a #3, a #5, and another QB who has started 33 games... and JC is worth a #2 pick?
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:01 am
by SkinsJock
The day after!
There are some that think the trade for Cutler was good for both teams and I have also tried to look at the merits from both team' perspective. whatever ....
I'm just glad that we did not do this - I think we need a great QB and there is a very small (IMO) chance that Campbell is that but we also need high draft picks more.
I think that we understand the upside that adding an "impact" player can be to an offense OR defense (hopefully Fat Albert is all of that!) but in our case I'm not sure that the "upside" of Cutler was worth both the picks and his having to "prove" he's not the spoilt brat he has been the last few weeks.
We have a lot of work to do but I feel we are better off with the picks and with Campbell - we need to do the right thing with the picks (that is another story) and we have to hope that we can find a franchise QB when Campbell does not make it to that level - but, we can do that over the next few years - losing high draft picks (OR making bad choices with those picks) hurts a team for a long time and we know that better than most teams.
I hope Campbell has a great season and I hope we make the most out of the #13 pick this year and the #1 pick next year that we almost lost yesterday
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:13 am
by PulpExposure
KDawg wrote:But for the record, we're notorious for not paying our own players. I myself think that most of the guys we let go were for good reasons. Antonio Pierce is someone I'm glad we let go of. We let go of Smoot just to sign him back, same thing with Dockery. We didn't pay them what they thought they were worth off the bat. Not saying it's a bad strategy, but we don't really like to pay the guys that are with us.
That's not necessarily true. We constantly and endlessly rework and extend the contract of many Redskins players. Samuels, Jansen, Portis,
ey, Moss, etc., have all had their very lucrative contracts reworked and extended, and in most cases, multiple times.
Our good players are just rarely on the Free Agent market; but when they get to that point, it's pretty much a given that the Redskins FO isn't interested in retaining them anymore.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:26 am
by Cappster
VetSkinsFan wrote:KDawg wrote:Here's what scares me about this whole thing...
Vinny is going to come out and deny we were even players in this thing. Which is a good move for the Redskins. 100%. They need to make sure no one is unhappy with this whole thing.
Campbell will toe the line and do what's asked of him and do his best. It's the way he is.
Here's where my problem comes in...
Let's say Campbell has a great season.
Will he re-up with us at that point? He's in a contract year. yeah, we don't know what's going on with the cap and all that other hooplah, but for now, I'm assuming the cap will stay in place.
So what do we do then?
Entering the Cutler sweepstakes was fine... As long as we won. By losing, we risked alienating our quarterback.
We can't keep our grubby mitts out of things.
And, for the record, we had to be involved in one way or another. We may not have been as heavily involved as the media had noted (although we probably were, but there's a chance we weren't), but we were in it. For sure. Too many sources for there to have been zero Redskin involvement.
So now, Campbell doesn't re-up. What do we have now? We're stuck with Colt Brennan. If he's not ready, we're back to square one... again.
That's a lot of speculation with no base. JC has already said all this is going to do is put a chip on his shoulder, which is open to interpretation. I interpret it as he's going to put out this year. He's stated he likes to be here and his teammates like him. I don't see him doing anything but using leverage (if he goes the whole season without signing) to get a bigger payday. It's not like we don't like to pay players.
EVERY quarterback in the league has to deal with adversity. Some respond better to it than others. I think JC will respond with going out and having a great year, because he has even more to prove to everyone who says he is nto capable of success in the NFL.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:31 am
by CanesSkins26
Why is everyone convinced the rumors of us going after Cutler are true? JLC is a known liar, and Denver had cause to leak that we were in the market to up the asking price.
Do you honestly think that the Skins weren't going hard after JC. Frank Hanrahan, who is a reporter for ESPN980 (which is owned by Snyder in the DC area), was on the John Thompson show saying that he heard from multiple sources (including John Clayton) that the Skins were in on this until the very end. Also, listen to JC's interview from yesterday. Based on the way he was talking he certainly believed that it was true that the Redskins were going after Cutler. He said that Zorn had called him, but that he had not heard from anybody in the front office about the trade. If the rumors were in fact bogus I would imagine that somebody from the front office would let JC know that it wasn't true.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:39 am
by Manchester_Redskin
Have to say that all the reports I've read suggest that the Bears have come out of the deal real good, so perhaps they havnt paid a high cost?
If Campbell dosnt make it this season where do we stand next year? unless we really suck this season and end up with a top 3 draft choice then we will likely be in the same situation as this year, a mid teen first round pick which will be too low to draft a decent QB and the chances of a young franchise QB coming on the market 2 years running must be quite slim.
Fingers crossed that Campbell gets the job done this year
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:39 am
by PulpExposure
CanesSkins26 wrote:Why is everyone convinced the rumors of us going after Cutler are true? JLC is a known liar, and Denver had cause to leak that we were in the market to up the asking price.
Do you honestly think that the Skins weren't going hard after JC. Frank Hanrahan, who is a reporter for ESPN980 (which is owned by Snyder in the DC area), was on the John Thompson show saying that he heard from multiple sources (including John Clayton) that the Skins were in on this until the very end. Also, listen to JC's interview from yesterday. Based on the way he was talking he certainly believed that it was true that the Redskins were going after Cutler. He said that Zorn had called him, but that he had not heard from anybody in the front office about the trade. If the rumors were in fact bogus I would imagine that somebody from the front office would let JC know that it wasn't true.
Apparently our FO doesn't like to communicate at all. That's such a great thing to have for a football franchise.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:49 am
by SkinsFreak
CanesSkins26 wrote:Why is everyone convinced the rumors of us going after Cutler are true? JLC is a known liar, and Denver had cause to leak that we were in the market to up the asking price.
Do you honestly think that the Skins weren't going hard after JC. Frank Hanrahan, who is a reporter for ESPN980 (which is owned by Snyder in the DC area), was on the John Thompson show saying that he heard from multiple sources (including John Clayton) that the Skins were in on this until the very end. Also, listen to JC's interview from yesterday. Based on the way he was talking he certainly believed that it was true that the Redskins were going after Cutler. He said that Zorn had called him, but that he had not heard from anybody in the front office about the trade. If the rumors were in fact bogus I would imagine that somebody from the front office would let JC know that it wasn't true.
And where do you think everyone got this information?
As I said in another thread, it's not bad business to pick up the phone just to see what the Bronco's wanted. I'd do it and so would everyone else here. They wanted a QB and two 1st round picks.
OBVIOUSLY the Skins didn't want to give that much. But I'd just love to hear you say that Kyle Orton and two 1st rounders is a better deal than JC and two 1st rounders. Denver wanted Campbell, he was their first choice and was even reported in articles that you posted.
I'm quite sure the Skins made a phone call and I have no problem with that. To what degree they stayed involved in an unknown and will always be an unknown. The Skins are probably the most secretive organization in the league.
And further, industry professionals were praising both Campbell and Zorn this morning, stating that JC remained a consummate professional through this and that Zorn was upfront with JC the entire time, staying in constant communication with him. They also said that Zorn confirmed that the rumors about trying to trade JC for a 2nd rounder were completely false. Zorn said he stands by JC and that he was his QB. That means a lot.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:07 am
by CanesSkins26
But I'd just love to hear you say that Kyle Orton and two 1st rounders is a better deal than JC and two 1st rounders.
I don't think that either was a great deal for Denver. Orton and JC, statistically similar last season, are both average NFL qb's at best. I wouldn't want to build my team around either.
The Skins are probably the most secretive organization in the league.
Haha no they aren't. They are a leaking ship of information. Media reports everywhere had them linked to Cutler. How many reports had the Bears linked to Cutler until the story broke? Our interest in Haynesworth was correctly reported a week before free agency even started.
They also said that Zorn confirmed that the rumors about trying to trade JC for a 2nd rounder were completely false. Zorn said he stands by JC and that he was his QB. That means a lot.
What is Zorn going to say? JC sucks and we tried to trade him for a second rounder? Please.
How come the front office didn't contact JC? JC in his interview never said that the team denied the rumors to him. He specifically said that he hadn't heard from the front office.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:15 am
by NJ-SKINS-FAN
AFTER THE MARK SAN. MEETIGNS AND TRYIGN TO TRADE FOR CUTLER, THE SKINS FO CLEARLY THINKS JC17 IS THE PROBLEM AND IW WILL BE SHOCKED IF HE IS HERE THIS YEAR UNDER CENTER, THEY DID NOT EXTEND HIS CONTRACT, SO AFTER 2009 IM SURE HE IS GONE
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:15 am
by SkinsFreak
Canes, it's what was reported this morning on both ESPN and the NFLN, and I'll take their word over yours.
The Skins made the right decision here by not breaking the bank for Cutler, but I just love how you'll still look for ways to bash them with your posts. Classic. Do you ever have anything positive to contribute?
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:18 am
by El Mexican
Just read Campbell's comments on the failed trade in this article. Our current QB is a class-act, no doubt about it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... tml?sub=AR
Having said that, this failed trade paints a horrible scenario for him for the upcomming season.
The detritus will spill game after game until he shows he can win big games in this league.
The damage is done. There is no turning back now for the two parts involved: JC and the FO.
Just a pathetic, classless, attempt by Snyder and Vinny to get rid of a solid, not great, player that they have grown tired with.
I'm really starting to believe that Snyder is some kind of a trading adict. Really. The guy just can't contain himself every time there is an attractive FA or player on trading block; By now, his way of dealing with bussiness has damaged locker room morale. This is obvious.
JC and Zorn are very bright, they will say absolutely nothing bad against their owner.
But if this season starts going bad by the half way point, I expect the whole locker room to fall apart. You just can't keep treating like this and expect them to act normally when they show up at work the next day.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:19 am
by CanesSkins26
SkinsFreak wrote:Canes, it's what was reported this morning on both ESPN and the NFLN, and I'll take their word over yours.
The Skins made the right decision here by not breaking the bank for Cutler, but I just love how you'll still look for ways to bash them with your posts. Classic. Do you ever have anything positive to contribute?
There's not much positive to say about this front office. They are a total joke. Their record on the field proves it.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:26 am
by roybus14
Here's what I think is going to happen after all of this.
If Dumb and Dumber don't trade JC by the start of the season, my bet is that you will see a more deliberate, athletic and take chances Jason Campbell. I think that this has taught this kid a lesson that he better do whatever he needs to do to get this team down the field. That may include him audibling more and using his legs to create. I think that he will start doing the things he's always been capable of but hasn't until now.
This is a business and a dirty one at times. If JC doesn't see that he needs to go into "self-preservation" mode and just play, then he's not the QB we thought he could be.
I have been one of only a few supporters of Dan Snyder but now, I have to say that he and "his Cousin Vinny" have to be the dumbest asses in capativity. Snyder is really dumb because he still has not figured out that he needs to get a "real" front office and get out of the way. He's not Jerry Jones who has an acumen for picking talent (now that hasn't worked out completely but it's a helluva alot better then ours), so he needs to get real football people in the front office to run the show.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:31 am
by Deadskins
Skinsfan55 wrote:The fact is none of us is qualified to comment on his football skills, if we could recognize them we'd be working in a front office somewhere.
Yes, because everyone who has any football knowledge chooses to work in that profession.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:33 am
by CanesSkins26
I have been one of only a few supporters of Dan Snyder but now, I have to say that he and "his Cousin Vinny" have to be the dumbest asses in capativity. Snyder is really dumb because he still has not figured out that he needs to get a "real" front office and get out of the way. He's not Jerry Jones who has an acumen for picking talent (now that hasn't worked out completely but it's a helluva alot better then ours), so he needs to get real football people in the front office to run the show.
I'm usually critical of Snyder but I don't see how he and Vinny were wrong here. The bottom line is that JC has not gotten the job done here. We can argue all day about who's fault that is and the bad circumstances that JC has had to deal with, however, the bottom line is results and in that regard has failed as qb of the Redskins. I wish that Snyder and Vinny could have been a little more under the radar on this, but I can't fault them for going after a 25 year old qb with a ton of talent. Sure the Bears gave up a lot of get him, but good qb's are hard to come (just look at what we've had the past 10 or so year). I firmly believe that they went hard after Cutler and were there until the very end, but simply got outbid.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:53 am
by SkinsFreak
CanesSkins26 wrote: I firmly believe that they went hard after Cutler and were there until the very end, but simply got outbid.
Well, sure they got outbid. lol... They simply weren't going to give up that much and were right in holding back. Damn...
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:57 am
by SkinsFreak
CanesSkins26 wrote:There's not much positive to say about this front office.
Right, because if you consistently refuse to open your eyes, look and acknowledge, you'll never see it. The FO made the right decision here by first making the inquiry, but then not breaking the bank for Cutler.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:57 am
by SkinsJock
SkinsFreak wrote:Why is everyone convinced the rumors of us going after Cutler are true? JLC is a known liar, and Denver had cause to leak that we were in the market to up the asking price.
SkinsFreak wrote:And where do you think everyone got this information?
As I said in another thread, it's not bad business to pick up the phone just to see what the Bronco's wanted. I'd do it and so would everyone else here. They wanted a QB and two 1st round picks.
OBVIOUSLY the Skins didn't want to give that much. But I'd just love to hear you say that Kyle Orton and two 1st rounders is a better deal than JC and two 1st rounders. Denver wanted Campbell, he was their first choice and was even reported in articles that you posted.
I'm quite sure the Skins made a phone call and I have no problem with that. To what degree they stayed involved in an unknown and will always be an unknown. The Skins are probably the most secretive organization in the league.
I agree SkinsFreak - not to belabor the point but I think that as soon as they found out the cost they, fortunately, (in my opinion) decided it was not worth the price and that Campbell is going to be fine.
there is no doubt in my mind that if the FO (including Zorn) did not think Campbell could become a better QB than we have seen AND that if Snyder wanted Cutler he would have made that deal work.
as the day went on I think that Denver most likely 'used' Snyder to try and get even more - I think that we made the better decision - I think Chicago thinks it was worth it too but I do not think Cutler's considerable potential was worth the price
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:57 am
by markshark84
Deadskins wrote:Skinsfan55 wrote:The fact is none of us is qualified to comment on his football skills, if we could recognize them we'd be working in a front office somewhere.
Yes, because everyone who has any football knowledge chooses to work in that profession.
Agree with you deadskins. I guarentee that there are a number of better GMs on this board - let alone throughout the country - than Vinny is. Idiotic post by the prior poster.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:58 am
by dlc
Agreed. JC needs to be held responsible. The way I see last season is pretty telling of what other teams think of JC. For the first half CP and the O-line proved they can run the ball. Teams adjusted and forced the Skins to throw the ball. Despite trying to not get away from we do best, some defensive schemes are designed to test the QB. It is obvious how our passing game responded.
Many blame the OL, which I agree is getting old. Perhaps they don't have the stamina to make it for 16, but perhaps JC simply can't lead a threatening passing attack? QBs like Peyton, Brady and Warner have deficiencies in their personnel and their own physical traits, but they overcome them with intelligence and knowledge. JC doesn't seem to recognize blitzes, adjust blocking schemes, make good audibles. True, he lacks experience and continuity, but good QBs at least show signs of aptitude for these things early in their careers. I believe what most people's gut feeling is can be summed up the appearance that JC isn't thinking out there. And if he isn't, how long will it take for him to start let alone be good at it?
CanesSkins26 wrote:I have been one of only a few supporters of Dan Snyder but now, I have to say that he and "his Cousin Vinny" have to be the dumbest asses in capativity. Snyder is really dumb because he still has not figured out that he needs to get a "real" front office and get out of the way. He's not Jerry Jones who has an acumen for picking talent (now that hasn't worked out completely but it's a helluva alot better then ours), so he needs to get real football people in the front office to run the show.
I'm usually critical of Snyder but I don't see how he and Vinny were wrong here. The bottom line is that JC has not gotten the job done here. We can argue all day about who's fault that is and the bad circumstances that JC has had to deal with, however, the bottom line is results and in that regard has failed as qb of the Redskins. I wish that Snyder and Vinny could have been a little more under the radar on this, but I can't fault them for going after a 25 year old qb with a ton of talent. Sure the Bears gave up a lot of get him, but good qb's are hard to come (just look at what we've had the past 10 or so year). I firmly believe that they went hard after Cutler and were there until the very end, but simply got outbid.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:02 am
by dlc
Agreed as well. But even if it were the case that we're all idiots and amateurs, isn't the point of this board for fans to express their views? I take it that Vinny and Dan aren't combing these boards to influence their decisions.
markshark84 wrote:Deadskins wrote:Skinsfan55 wrote:The fact is none of us is qualified to comment on his football skills, if we could recognize them we'd be working in a front office somewhere.
Yes, because everyone who has any football knowledge chooses to work in that profession.
Agree with you deadskins. I guarentee that there are a number of better GMs on this board - let alone throughout the country - than Vinny is. Idiotic post by the prior poster.
Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:13 am
by langleyparkjoe
YES!!!! Good, now we don't have to go through the crap anymore of "is Cutler coming for real?"
Now that it's over, I'm gonna have to see which Chicago WR I pick up for my fantasy team.
