The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

PulpExposure wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:But he kicked butt in the 4th quarter of the 1st of 5 preseason games against a bunch of players who got immediately cut!!!!

What is it going to hurt to have an open training camp?

Oh, I'm well on record that the Skins should have an open training camp. I just don't get the love for Colt Brennan, and the unshakeable belief that he's going to be a star that some posters have, because it's based upon him ripping up a bunch of training camp fodder in the first preseason game of last year.

Right on the money.

CanesSkins26 wrote:That is an utter joke. Tebow throws a better ball than Sanchez? Now I'm starting to think that you have never seen any of these players actually play in real games. Tebow is at best a mediocre passer. His mechanics are terrible and he isn't very accurate. If you think otherwise I don't really know what to tell you. If you think that he is going to be a first round pick then you are sadly mistaken. Go back and watch some of the games in which UF has trailed and he has been forced to pass and see how he has done (the 2007 games against LSU, Auburn, and Georgia are a good place to start). In case you don't believe me, here is what some of the professionals think about Tebow...

No offense dude but giving me a bunch of info from so called draft experts wont change my opinion. Stafford and Sanchez arent in the same class as the other three QBs who will be coming in 2010 that includes Tebow.

McShay's opinion means little to me since he had Tebow as a 1st round pick back last April when he gave out his first real early mock for 2009. So Tebow helps win a national title and he doesnt think hes a 1st round pick anymore?

Tebow will be a 1st round QB in 2010. I have no doubts about it. No expert who changes there opinions 100 times between the last college game and there NFL Draft is going to make me sway my opinion.

I do respect your opinion though and if you think Sanchez is a better QB than Tebow thats your opinion. I do think Sanchez is the best QB of this class ahead of Stafford. I do believe if the other 3 QBs came into the draft this year Sanchez would be a 2nd round pick.

SkinsSince96 wrote:
No offense dude but giving me a bunch of info from so called draft experts wont change my opinion. Stafford and Sanchez arent in the same class as the other three QBs who will be coming in 2010 that includes Tebow.

I have to agree Tim throws a better ball than Sanchez, though I didn't really watch much of Sanchez and have been watching Tebow since he was in High School, and Tim's passes look a lot prettier than what Sanchez's look like. Sanchez is more than likely to have his ball hit his target more often than Tebow's will pretty or not.

When Tebow was lighting it up here, everyone knew he was a born leader and figured he'd get his mechanics worked out with would help his accuracy, making him a sure fire NFL QB. That was five years ago and he still has the same issues. He might go in the first round next year, Matt Jones was a pretty good QB going way back to HS too, he went in the first round (AS A WIDE RECEIVER) and Tim might make a good tight end (what Mattt will be if he ever gets back in the league) some day. Going back for his final year with the Gators won't make much of a difference in his development as a passer considering it took three years for him to get to where he is now.

SkinsSince96 wrote:McShay's opinion means little to me since he had Tebow as a 1st round pick back last April when he gave out his first real early mock for 2009. So Tebow helps win a national title and he doesnt think hes a 1st round pick anymore?

Tebow will be a 1st round QB in 2010. I have no doubts about it. No expert who changes there opinions 100 times between the last college game and there NFL Draft is going to make me sway my opinion.

McShay's opinion didn't change until Tim came out and said he was returning to UF. In public it was to win another NCAA Title and another shot at the Heisman (that he should have won this year) but Tim went back to hopefully become a more accurate passer and stated that he wasn't ready to compete in the NFL as a QB. He (as well as most of Jacksonville) hasn't given up hope on him becoming a NFL quarterback, but he know he needs work to get to that point regardless of what round he goes in.

1niksder wrote:McShay's opinion didn't change until Tim came out and said he was returning to UF. In public it was to win another NCAA Title and another shot at the Heisman (that he should have won this year) but Tim went back to hopefully become a more accurate passer and stated that he wasn't ready to compete in the NFL as a QB. He (as well as most of Jacksonville) hasn't given up hope on him becoming a NFL quarterback, but he know he needs work to get to that point regardless of what round he goes in.

So im guessing McShay doesnt think hes a 1st round pick anymore because the 2010 class has more talent at QB then the 2009 class? If that is true then it does make sense. I got the three top QBs in 2010 ranked right now....

1. Sam Bradford 2. Colt McCoy 3. Tim Tebow

I do like Sanchez but if im the Skins and I want a QB I wait til 2010 and draft one of the three players I just mentioned. I know some people think Tebow cant be a good QB in the NFL. I actually think his leadership and ability on the field is intense to say the least. I dont think the amount of run plays Tebow runs will work in the NFL but I think he can be a great QB at the next level. He has some flaws but his potenial imo is through the roof.

SkinsSince96 wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote: Orton is a very solid QB and with that talent around him on offense should have a good season.

Too much dink-and-dunk and can't throw the deep ball very well at all. Hester is gonna be a VERY happy man now.

BearSkins wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote: Orton is a very solid QB and with that talent around him on offense should have a good season.

Too much dink-and-dunk and can't throw the deep ball very well at all. Hester is gonna be a VERY happy man now.

Id go with Orton throwing to Marshall and Royal over Cutler throwing to Hester and Earl Bennett.

I hope Hester is a happy man maybe he can actually show a pulse at WR because hes one of the worst WRs ive ever seen.

SkinsSince96 wrote:I hope Hester is a happy man maybe he can actually show a pulse at WR because hes one of the worst WRs ive ever seen.

That's because he's not a pure wideout. He was originally drafted to player corner and return kicks. He was initially placed at wide receiver for a hand full of plays to either draw attention or hit the home run. Recently, he was placed there due to the lack of wide receivers on the team and his speed. He's one of those guys that can play all positions good, but doesn't have enough play time or experience to be a perennial wide receiver.

Cooter wrote:

SkinsSince96 wrote:I hope Hester is a happy man maybe he can actually show a pulse at WR because hes one of the worst WRs ive ever seen.

That's because he's not a pure wideout. He was originally drafted to player corner and return kicks. He was initially placed at wide receiver for a hand full of plays to either draw attention or hit the home run. Recently, he was placed there due to the lack of wide receivers on the team and his speed. He's one of those guys that can play all positions good, but doesn't have enough play time or experience to be a perennial wide receiver.

Everything you said I already know.

Im just saying he sucks as a WR. Pure speed doesnt make a good WR. I think Cutler will have problems in Chicago because they dont have one WR with a pulse.

SkinsSince96 wrote:I hope Hester is a happy man maybe he can actually show a pulse at WR because hes one of the worst WRs ive ever seen.

You could actually see him get better week by week, he's gonna be okay I reckon. Not terrific, don't get me wrong, but good and dangerous. He got open so many times last year and, time and again, Orton missed him by a country mile. As far as Bennett goes - well, he and Cutler already played at Vanderbilt together though the Bears would be foolish to hang their hats on that. Veteran WR free agent is surely a must - Torry Holt?

Josh Mcdaniels is a moron. You do not start your coaching career by pissing off the former franchise qb. Especially when you are 35 years old and just got your first head coaching gig.

What a bafoon!

SkinsSince96 wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:Certainly a stiff price, but the Bears have needed a stud QB for quite a long time, so I can understand why many Bears fans will be pleased with this trade, despite the hefty price tag.

In my opinion, I think the Broncos are the biggest losers in all of this.

I disagree. While I understand your viewpoints I have another angle about this. The Bears gave up a ton for a QB who has never won anything. They have no WRs and there defense is getting older. They just gave the Broncos a solid QB and 3 potenial impact players if Denver drafts smart.

The Broncos if Stafford or Sanchez arent there at 12 will take two defensive players for there new 3-4 defense. Next year they will trade both 1st round picks and draft there pick between Sam Bradford, Colt McCoy, or Tim Tebow.

The Bears might win some games next year and even win the NFC North but they have a small window to win before the loss of these draft picks will comeback to bite them. The Broncos can build there 3-4 defense and find a new franchise QB in the best draft class since 1983 in the next two years thanks to the Bears.

The Broncos might not win alot of games this year but they now have a chance to build a dynasty with the draft picks they have the next 2 years.

You are way off. Wrong!

Cutler is already a proven asset. He put up the numbers to prove it. Mark Sanchez and Matt Stafford are both unproven. Stafford played for a bigtime under acheiving team in Georgia. Sanchez on the other hand only started one year in college.

1983 John Elway, Jim Kelly and Dan Marino. Please, Sanchez and Stafford have a long way to go. Also Bruce Matthews and Darrell Green were also drafted in 83. You cannot grade the drafts until years later.

The Bears just got a proven QB. If you ask me they got the better of the deal. There is no guarantee that a first round pick is going to get you a franchise Qb. There are more busts than successes.

Broncos new head coach/GM is a moron. His ego clearly got in the way of wisdom.

They had a great offense already.

Why would you go in and change a top offense?
Why would you piss of the franchise Qb?

Would you go to Baltimore and want to change the defensive players?
Would you go to Baltimore and piss off Ray Lewis?

Would you go to New England and want to change the offense?
Would you go to New England and want to piss off Tom Brady?

Of course not!

Only stupid fools do that. Fools who have no experience as a head coach. Cocky guys who think there schemes trump the players on the field.
Only young boys who are in over the head, with there first head coaching job would do that.

That indeed is Josh Mcdaniels. Bafooon!

HEROHAMO wrote: You are way off. Wrong!

Cutler is already a proven asset. He put up the numbers to prove it. Mark Sanchez and Matt Stafford are both unproven. Stafford played for a bigtime under acheiving team in Georgia. Sanchez on the other hand only started one year in college.

Huge numbers? Look at his stats on a game by game basis they arent as good as they look as a whole. He is a good QB and maybe a franchise QB. At the sametime his numbers last year dont justify trading 4 players for him.

HEROHAMO wrote:1983 John Elway, Jim Kelly and Dan Marino. Please, Sanchez and Stafford have a long way to go. Also Bruce Matthews and Darrell Green were also drafted in 83. You cannot grade the drafts until years later.

Im talking about the 2010 draft class (Bradford, McCoy. Tebow)

HEROHAMO wrote:The Bears just got a proven QB. If you ask me they got the better of the deal. There is no guarantee that a first round pick is going to get you a franchise Qb. There are more busts than successes.

How is he proven? Hes got potenial to be a franchise QB but he hasnt proven anything to me with a 17-20 career record. Maybe he will win more in Chicago and become a franchise QB. I just dont think hes worth what the Bears gave up.

HEROHAMO wrote:Broncos new head coach/GM is a moron. His ego clearly got in the way of wisdom.

They had a great offense already.

Why would you go in and change a top offense?
Why would you piss of the franchise Qb?

Would you go to Baltimore and want to change the defensive players?
Would you go to Baltimore and piss off Ray Lewis?

Would you go to New England and want to change the offense?
Would you go to New England and want to piss off Tom Brady?

Of course not!

Only stupid fools do that. Fools who have no experience as a head coach. Cocky guys who think there schemes trump the players on the field.
Only young boys who are in over the head, with there first head coaching job would do that.

That indeed is Josh Mcdaniels. Bafooon!

Cutler isnt Tom Brady or Ray Lewis. I agree McDaniels trying to trade for Cassel was wrong. At the sametime if im the Broncos and the Bears offer me Orton and three high draft picks I take it and run.

SkinsSince96 wrote:I just dont think hes worth what the Bears gave up.

What did the Bears give up? Neckbeard and 3 potential busts for Jay Cutler? I'll take that any day of the week. Even from a $$$ point of view, Cutler costs what? $1m against the cap this year? (I believe that figure is corrrct though I may be wrong). A #1 with zero experience who may not even be able to help us this year would have cost much more. Ao talentwise and dollarswise the Bears win (for now anyway).

Josh McDaniels has mishandled things from day #1 in denver. Will be interesting to see how he pans out in Denver or goes the same way as Mangini, Weis and ol' Romeo before him.

BearSkins wrote:What did the Bears give up?

They gave up Kyle Orton who is a solid QB and more of a winner than Cutler. When Orton has better numbers than Cutler this year you will see why I think the Bears gave up too much. You cant fault Orton when he has no WR with a pulse.

The Bears also gave up two first round picks and a third round pick. Players the Bears will need sooner rather then later.

No way Cutler is worth 4 players. Its a huge risk for a team thats not a Super Bowl contender even with Cutler.

SkinsSince96 wrote:The Bears also gave up two first round picks and a third round pick. Players the Bears will need sooner rather then later.

Have you been paying attention to Angelo's drafts for the Bears? I give up the three draft picks and Neckbeard for Cutler EVERY day of the week and don't think about it twice. Hester, Olson, Clark and Forte just got VERY happy indeed as did the entire D.

BearSkins wrote:

SkinsSince96 wrote:The Bears also gave up two first round picks and a third round pick. Players the Bears will need sooner rather then later.

Have you been paying attention to Angelo's drafts for the Bears? I give up the three draft picks and Neckbeard for Cutler EVERY day of the week and don't think about it twice. Hester, Olson, Clark and Forte just got VERY happy indeed as did the entire D.

I dont know why Hester or Clark would be happy. They suck.

Olsen and Forte should be happy they did upgrade at the QB position.

If Cutler becomes a pro bowl QB year in and year out it was a great trade. If not and he cant get them over the hump this trade is going to set the Bears back for at least 5 years.

I dont think the risk is going to be worth what they gave up. If im the Bears I keep Orton and upgrade at WR and get younger on defense.

Hey BearSkins.. soooo, if I'm gonna draft a WR from da Bears, you'd recommend??? (for fantasy team)

SkinsSince96 wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote: You are way off. Wrong!

Cutler is already a proven asset. He put up the numbers to prove it. Mark Sanchez and Matt Stafford are both unproven. Stafford played for a bigtime under acheiving team in Georgia. Sanchez on the other hand only started one year in college.

Huge numbers? Look at his stats on a game by game basis they arent as good as they look as a whole. He is a good QB and maybe a franchise QB. At the sametime his numbers last year dont justify trading 4 players for him.

HEROHAMO wrote:1983 John Elway, Jim Kelly and Dan Marino. Please, Sanchez and Stafford have a long way to go. Also Bruce Matthews and Darrell Green were also drafted in 83. You cannot grade the drafts until years later.

Im talking about the 2010 draft class (Bradford, McCoy. Tebow)

HEROHAMO wrote:The Bears just got a proven QB. If you ask me they got the better of the deal. There is no guarantee that a first round pick is going to get you a franchise Qb. There are more busts than successes.

How is he proven? Hes got potenial to be a franchise QB but he hasnt proven anything to me with a 17-20 career record. Maybe he will win more in Chicago and become a franchise QB. I just dont think hes worth what the Bears gave up.

I want to chime in on this. Okay so last year the Broncos were 8-8. Out of their 8 victories Jay Cutler brought them back from behind 6 times. The Broncos in 16 games only had two of those games did they have a running back go over 100 yards. The Broncos had 7 -9 running back on IR. He was the 3rd ranked QB in the NFL. They had the 2nd ranked offense in the league. But what failed them is that their defense was averaging 28 points they were giving up. They had the 29th ranked defense in the league. So, how can you blame his 17-20 record on him when his defense can't stop anybody?

jeremyroyce wrote:I want to chime in on this. Okay so last year the Broncos were 8-8. Out of their 8 victories Jay Cutler brought them back from behind 6 times. The Broncos in 16 games only had two of those games did they have a running back go over 100 yards. The Broncos had 7 -9 running back on IR. He was the 3rd ranked QB in the NFL. They had the 2nd ranked offense in the league. But what failed them is that their defense was averaging 28 points they were giving up. They had the 29th ranked defense in the league. So, how can you blame his 17-20 record on him when his defense can't stop anybody?

Im not blaming Cutler for the reason they were 17-20 under him. Im just saying he didnt win in Denver so how can you give up 4 players and say the guy is a franchise QB when he hasnt won anything?

The Broncos even with that many players on IR had a 4.8 ypc avg and were 2nd in the league running the ball. I do agree the defense was a huge problem. At the sametime ive seen alot of Cutler games where he made some really ignorant throws.

Im not slamming Cutler because he could be a top QB for years I just wouldnt give up 4 players for somebody who isnt a 100% sure thing.

langleyparkjoe wrote:Hey BearSkins.. soooo, if I'm gonna draft a WR from da Bears, you'd recommend??? (for fantasy team)

Hester and, at this point, only Hester

SkinsSince96 wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote: You are way off. Wrong!

Cutler is already a proven asset. He put up the numbers to prove it. Mark Sanchez and Matt Stafford are both unproven. Stafford played for a bigtime under acheiving team in Georgia. Sanchez on the other hand only started one year in college.

Huge numbers? Look at his stats on a game by game basis they arent as good as they look as a whole. He is a good QB and maybe a franchise QB. At the sametime his numbers last year dont justify trading 4 players for him.

HEROHAMO wrote:1983 John Elway, Jim Kelly and Dan Marino. Please, Sanchez and Stafford have a long way to go. Also Bruce Matthews and Darrell Green were also drafted in 83. You cannot grade the drafts until years later.

Im talking about the 2010 draft class (Bradford, McCoy. Tebow)

HEROHAMO wrote:The Bears just got a proven QB. If you ask me they got the better of the deal. There is no guarantee that a first round pick is going to get you a franchise Qb. There are more busts than successes.

How is he proven? Hes got potenial to be a franchise QB but he hasnt proven anything to me with a 17-20 career record. Maybe he will win more in Chicago and become a franchise QB. I just dont think hes worth what the Bears gave up.

HEROHAMO wrote:Broncos new head coach/GM is a moron. His ego clearly got in the way of wisdom.

They had a great offense already.

Why would you go in and change a top offense?
Why would you piss of the franchise Qb?

Would you go to Baltimore and want to change the defensive players?
Would you go to Baltimore and piss off Ray Lewis?

Would you go to New England and want to change the offense?
Would you go to New England and want to piss off Tom Brady?

Of course not!

Only stupid fools do that. Fools who have no experience as a head coach. Cocky guys who think there schemes trump the players on the field.
Only young boys who are in over the head, with there first head coaching job would do that.

That indeed is Josh Mcdaniels. Bafooon!

Cutler isnt Tom Brady or Ray Lewis. I agree McDaniels trying to trade for Cassel was wrong. At the sametime if im the Broncos and the Bears offer me Orton and three high draft picks I take it and run.

First off Cutler had a more then decent season. He threw for nearly 5000 yards last year. Making the Pro Bowl and earning the respect of many players all across the league. The guy has one of the strongest arms the league has ever seen.

My main point is this.
The Bears gave up Three draft picks and a journeyman Qb in Orton. They received a potential hall of famer in Cutler.

Draft picks vs Pro Bowl player.

Draft picks are always a gamble. There is no guarantee that the Broncos will land a pro bowl pick with any of the draft picks. So yes the Bears are giving up four players but are they going to be Pro Bowl players?

Mighty big gamble for a rookie coach/gm. Denver is going to run this young guy out of town. Can you imagine what the Boos will be like if the Broncos picks turn out to be busts?

This young rookie coach has not proven anything as far as drafting talent.

HEROHAMO wrote:First off Cutler had a more then decent season. He threw for nearly 5000 yards last year. Making the Pro Bowl and earning the respect of many players all across the league. The guy has one of the strongest arms the league has ever seen.

My main point is this.
The Bears gave up Three draft picks and a journeyman Qb in Orton. They received a potential hall of famer in Cutler.

Draft picks vs Pro Bowl player.

Draft picks are always a gamble. There is no guarantee that the Broncos will land a pro bowl pick with any of the draft picks. So yes the Bears are giving up four players but are they going to be Pro Bowl players?

Mighty big gamble for a rookie coach/gm. Denver is going to run this young guy out of town. Can you imagine what the Boos will be like if the Broncos picks turn out to be busts?

This young rookie coach has not proven anything as far as drafting talent.

4,526 is a nice number but rounding it up saying its close to 5,000 is a little over the top. The Bears gave up there future and a solid QB who has a better winning % to the Broncos for a QB who is maybe a franchise QB. I dont see him as a potenial HOF QB this early in his career.

I understand what your saying about draft picks vs pro bowl player but if the Skins gave up our 1st and 3rd this year, our first next year, and Campbell would you have liked the move? Everyone keeps preaching about keeping draft picks but your willing to trade it all for a guy who hasnt won anything in this league?

Dont get me wrong. Cutler could become a franchise QB and a HOF QB. Im not saying it cant happen. You could be right 100% and I could be wrong. I just dont think id give up 3 high draft picks and a solid QB for a guy who hasnt proven he can be a winner in this league. Maybe its not his fault he didnt win in Denver but that doesnt stop the questions about him. If it was a player like Manning or Brady id trade double what the Bears did. I just dont think Cutler is worth what the Bears paid.

Only time will tell on who is right. Im just happy the Skins didnt trade all of that.

You have to put in context too though, SS96. Cutler IMMEDIATELY becomes the Bears only legit quarterback since the war - and I don't mean Iraq or Vietnam, I mean WWII. At the very least, he is the best since McMahon almost a quarter century ago. Given all that, you won't be surprised to find too many Bears fans who think we gave up too much. Hell, some newspaper columnists were saying we should trade Urlacher as part of a package to get Cutler when the Broncos management started messing things up so badly.

BearSkins wrote:You have to put in context too though, SS96. Cutler IMMEDIATELY becomes the Bears only legit quarterback since the war - and I don't mean Iraq or Vietnam, I mean WWII. At the very least, he is the best since McMahon almost a quarter century ago. Given all that, you won't be surprised to find too many Bears fans who think we gave up too much. Hell, some newspaper columnists were saying we should trade Urlacher as part of a package to get Cutler when the Broncos management started messing things up so badly.

Exactly.

BearSkins wrote:You have to put in context too though, SS96. Cutler IMMEDIATELY becomes the Bears only legit quarterback since the war - and I don't mean Iraq or Vietnam, I mean WWII. At the very least, he is the best since McMahon almost a quarter century ago. Given all that, you won't be surprised to find too many Bears fans who think we gave up too much. Hell, some newspaper columnists were saying we should trade Urlacher as part of a package to get Cutler when the Broncos management started messing things up so badly.

I totally understand that. It's kind of amazing how bad the QB play has been for such a storied franchise.

However, Cutler throwing to Hester and Davies (?) isn't the same threat as Cutler throwing to Marshall and Royal. It's not even close. Not to mention that the offensive line in Denver was the best pass-blocking o-line in the NFL last year (and the Bears weren't close).

However, that being said, he's certainly a major talent upgrade over Captain Neckbeard.