The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

SkinsFreak wrote:

Kilmer72 wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:With all due respect to the "experts", I choose to form my own opinions based on facts and my own observations rather than allowing someone else tell me what to think based on theirs.

And there you have it, folks, right there in black and white. It doesn't matter what the PAID PROFESSIONALS think or say, RayNAustin forms his opinions based on his own observations.

Well done!

And not one comment of substance. Just rhetoric.

And the last time I checked, Matt Millen was a "PAID PROFESSIONAL" who turned the Lions into the only win less team in NFL History for a 16 game schedule.

The experts are always right though, even when they were wrong.

On that note I would just like to say I am very happy that there are people out trying to defend JC for once.

I do not like to see putting the blame on JC. The way I see it JC was trying to be the opposite of CP. Instead of saying- The offensive line can not pass block. My receivers can not get open. I only have a year and half starting experience in the NFL. We never give Betts the balls 10 a game to help relieve the burdon on Portis. Moss really isn't a number one receiver but really a number two. Our punt returns are responsible for keeping us in bad field possition.

Instead I think he was trying to be politically correct and say he had a great year considering....

Hey, welcome to the site, Kilmer72. Love your username, by the way.

Listen, we've been round and round with Ray regarding this issue for a long time now. Don't waste your time. The guy has a deep hatred for Campbell and any discussion using rationalization and reason seems to evade him. I mean, he's reached the pinnacle of prejudice with comments like these...

RayNAustin wrote:He's mentally ill altogether.

RayNAustin wrote:This clown, this buffoon, this ultra maroon (as buggs bunny would say) needs to GO dock...yesterday.

You might expect comments like that from an immature little kid, but Ray is not a kid. It's becoming sad and pathetic, actually. Campbell is highly respected around Redskins Park and around the entire league itself, for having extremely high character and work ethic. Campbell has had to face some adversity that not many QB's have ever matched in such a short period of time, with regard to the numerous coaching and system changes so early in his career. Yet a very small percentage of so-called fans resort to that kind of attack and prejudice. And if you show any kind of positive support or optimism for your starting QB, he'll accuse you of the same and assert that you're blindly drinking the kool-aid.

First, you should, as staff, honor the rules about attacking the post and not the poster .... unless there are two sets of rules here?

Secondly, don't post single statements of mine out of context while your doing it!

Anyone can cherry pick and string together statements out of context to alter the meaning. It's dishonest and slimy.

And in the context of Jason Campbell declaring he had "a really good year" last year, he is a buffoon for making such a ridiculous statement.

And, don't make it sound like I'm the only one here that thinks Campbell should go, because that would be dishonest as well.

Okay, well since some people need the obvious spelled out, I'll reset the topic. Basically, this thread has become a discussion about whether Campbell is a good starting QB or not. I don't think many people believe JC has had a breakthrough yet, but only one or two believe he is a bad Qb who should leave the team immediately.

I believe that JC has developed some leadership skills. He is fairly mobile. Despite 38 sacks given up by the OL last year, I would say JC is a very hard QB to bring down. He avoided lots of sacks, which tells just how porous the OL was. Zorn knew his WR's were not top tier and ill-suited to the WC offense. He knew they were running poor routes in the pre-season and that Campbell was still learning. He knew the strength of the offense was Portis and the run blocking.

Where we get into opinionated debate is whether JC is a young QB learning a new system who has the skills to take it to the next level OR a QB who has had plenty of opportunities but failed to excel and is unlikely to play any better than he already has.

I have previously posted that NFL is littered with examples of QB's who took more than 3-4 years to find their game. Bradshaw, S. Young, K. Warner, D. Fouts and many, many others took more than 3 years (almost always in the SAME system) to develop. And really, if you look at every QB drafted in the 1st and 2nd rounds recently, you'll find a real mixed bag with very few QB's making a breakthrough in their first 2 years.

I make this argument because I think it is a little short-sighted and impatient to conclude JC cannot be a starting QB in the NFL. Considering what he has been through as a pro, with Gibbs offense, then Saunders 700 page offense, then Zorns WC offense, he at least deserves a chance to show some improvement in 2009. If I were the HC, I would declare training camp an open competition for every position on the team. JC hasn't done enough to be named starter. In addition, a team should never stop looking for QB talent. The team with the best QB in football just traded their backup for a 2nd round pick. Ron Wolf used to draft QB's to backup Farve knwoing that they were great trade bait. (Hasselback, Brunell, A. Brooks all yielded nice draft picks in return) Colt Brennan has looked nice against 3rd string defenses in preseason games but he has done nothing worthy of note except to secure a roster spot for now. We need a better Qb competition this year. But I feel Campbell can be the man to lead the Skins if he is given time to throw and above average WR's to throw to. Neither of those two things happened much last year.

RayNAustin wrote:First, you should, as staff, honor the rules about attacking the post and not the poster .... unless there are two sets of rules here?

<sigh> Since I quoted you twice, Ray, my comments were clearly aimed at your posts. I never made any direct attacks on you personally. I quoted you and attacked your posts, which IS within the rules.

Thank you SkinsFreak for the welcome. One reason I really like this site is because people do seem intelligent even if I do not agree with them. As far as Ray goes I think he is a smart guy but just doesn't like JC. This is ok.
I have a friend back home in VA that felt the same way before the season started last year. He kept saying Jason is not the answer for qb of the future. We would argue back and forth until finally I said ok "what if we win five of our first eight games? Will you lay off him then?" He laughed and said no way and he would be shocked if we did. Well, I am really optimistic when it comes to the skins every single year. To tell you the truth I had my doubts too but it was the only way to get him to shut up. Well, he is a JC fan now because he saw that this guy was running for his life and avoiding sacks when our blocking broke down. Although he is not completely sold on him yet and understandably so. Then he saw all the drops Randle EL made and even sure handed Moss. I saw JC holding the ball too long for a west coast offense. The other negative a saw about him was when the game was really on the line he didn't come through but this takes time. I saw a bland offense from a first year coach. I saw our special teams put us in a bind all year except for Rock. I saw our line cave in especially when we really needed to pass.
This site really is pretty good about laying off of JC. This is why I like it here. I have been watching the Redskins since 1972 at age four. I became a real fan about 1978. I got the sport package here in TX because I can't function with out seeing the whole season. Sad I know but I am too into it.
I don't know if you guys ever read other sites or not but people tend to get ugly with others and are all over JC. To me it is like slapping my kid brother or something. I like him. I think he is the answer. Could I be wrong? Yes...lol I just have to have faith. I think it really takes four years in the same system before you can really say it is not working out JC, time to go, unless he looks like he is losing games for us.

fleetus wrote:Were you a Skins fan when we won a SB with Rypien? Go look up how many sacks that OL gave up. That's what makes a good QB, plus players like Monk, Clark and Sanders. Our QB is much closer to that standard than our OL and WR's are. Complain on that for a change.

I could not agree more, my friend. While there are other factors involved in a QB's success or failure, a solid running game, a good pocket when he drops back, and reliable wideouts have to be at the top of that list. One of the reasons Gibbs swore by the one-back, often 2-TE sets he loved was the max-protect option they made possible. When push came to shove, whenever the Master faced a daunting pass rush his philosophy was pull 'em in and circle the wagons FIRST, and look to go up top on 'em SECOND.

And of course, his results speak rather eloquently for themselves. In marked contrast to, I dunno, the ole ball coach? Yeah. THAT guy -

fleetus wrote:Were you a Skins fan when we won a SB with Rypien? Go look up how many sacks that OL gave up. That's what makes a good QB, plus players like Monk, Clark and Sanders. Our QB is much closer to that standard than our OL and WR's are. Complain on that for a change.

I think that's a good point. Campbell puts up qb ratings in the 15-20th range. The offensive line is at best early twenties, and the WR core is bottom 3, easily. I'm not basing the O-line and WR core on numbers, just on how they would be scouted. But those two measures would be close anyway, i believe. Its one thing to underperform with weapons, its another thing to underperform with nothing. Most people on this board think the QB is the entire offense and every other position can be filled with whatever.

The offensive line is at best early twenties, and the WR core is bottom 3, easily.

We might not have one of the better wide receiver cores in the NFL but that is a ridiculous statement. Moss was 13th in the NFL in yards and 15th in receptions. That's middle of the road as far as #1 receivers go. ey finished 2nd among tight ends in catches and 4th in yards. Between ey and Moss, JC had more to work with than some other NFL qbs that posted similar or better numbers. Pennington, for example, finished second in the NFL in qb rating with a wide receiving core of Ted Ginn Jr., Greg Camirillo, and Devone Bess. His tight end was Anthony Fazano. Similarly, Jeff Garcia was top 10 in qb rating with Anthony Bryant, Michale Clayton, and Ike Hilliard as his main receiving targets. Obviously our receiver play needs to improve but they aren't as bad as you are making them out to be.

Pennington, for example, finished second in the NFL in qb rating with a wide receiving core of Ted Ginn Jr., Greg Camirillo, and Devone Bess. His tight end was Anthony Fazano.

Yeah, b/c everyone was worried about Miami's air attack

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Pennington, for example, finished second in the NFL in qb rating with a wide receiving core of Ted Ginn Jr., Greg Camirillo, and Devone Bess. His tight end was Anthony Fazano.

Yeah, b/c everyone was worried about Miami's air attack

Exactly. Moss and ey draw ALL the coverage and are double-teamed on just about every play. Just because they're on the field doesn't mean they're open all the time to receive passes. Canes said "JC had more to work with than some other NFL qbs". But what he failed to acknowledge is that better players draw more attention and coverage, and many times it's more difficult to get them the ball due to their respected status.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Pennington, for example, finished second in the NFL in qb rating with a wide receiving core of Ted Ginn Jr., Greg Camirillo, and Devone Bess. His tight end was Anthony Fazano.

Yeah, b/c everyone was worried about Miami's air attack

Um, the Dolphins were 10th in the NFL in passing yards a game last season. Their rushing offense was 11th in the NFL. So they had a very balanced offense last year. By comparison, the Redskins' rushing offense was ranked 8th in the league. Despite having a below average wide receiver core and a rushing attack that averaged less yards than ours, Pennington completed 67 percent of his passes and threw 19 tds. It was also Pennington's first year in the Dolphins' offense.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Pennington, for example, finished second in the NFL in qb rating with a wide receiving core of Ted Ginn Jr., Greg Camirillo, and Devone Bess. His tight end was Anthony Fazano.

Yeah, b/c everyone was worried about Miami's air attack

Um, the Dolphins were 10th in the NFL in passing yards a game last season. Their rushing offense was 11th in the NFL. So they had a very balanced offense last year. By comparison, the Redskins' rushing offense was ranked 8th in the league. Despite having a below average wide receiver core and a rushing attack that averaged less yards than ours, Pennington completed 67 percent of his passes and threw 19 tds.

You also forgot to mention that slow-footed Chad Pennington was only sacked 24 times...14 less times than Campbell. And while the Jets rushed for less yards than we did, their average yards per rush were much better; 4.7 ypc versus 4.4 yards per carry.

By any estimate, the Dolphins had a superior line to the Redskins last year. That could perhaps contribute to a better offense. Perhaps.

It was also Pennington's first year in the Dolphins' offense.

Wasn't it also Campbell's first year in Zorn's offense?

Wasn't it also Campbell's first year in Zorn's offense?

It was. The difference is that Pennington played at a high level and JC didn't.

You also forgot to mention that slow-footed Chad Pennington was only sacked 24 times...14 less times than Campbell.

True. I'm not disputing that our oline didn't struggle at times last year, particularly in the second half of the season when they played very poorly. However, not all of those 38 sacks is their fault. Watching Chad Pennington play compared to JC and you will notice how much faster he gets rid of the ball. JC's penchant for holding onto the ball and his slow delivery certainly contributed to those 38 sacks. It's also not like the Dolphins had a great line last year. They lost two starters to season ending injuries and they fired their offensive line coach after the season.

By any estimate, the Dolphins had a superior line to the Redskins last year. That could perhaps contribute to a better offense. Perhaps.

I wouldn't be so sure about that...

The offensive line is considered one of the Dolphins' weakest areas, despite the addition of tackle Jake Long, the first overall pick in the 2007 draft. Miami struggled to run consistently from its base offense last season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3833043

There's arguably no better way to send a message to an NFL unit than to release one of its brethren.

In one week former Dolphins guard Evan Mathis went from pushing for a starting spot to the unemployment line.

Mathis' release on Friday made it crystal clear the Dolphins' coaches and decision-makers are looking for more from its underachieving offensive line, which came into Sunday's game with only two 100-plus rushing performances in eight games.

http://redeye.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sfl-dolside1109,1,7951885.story

Although running back Ronnie Brown earned his first Pro Bowl berth, the Dolphins struggled to run between the tackles in the base offense. They were ranked a respectable 11th in rushing (118.6 yards per game), but most of those yards came when running out of the Wildcat with Brown taking the direct shotgun snap from center.

While the offensive line only gave up 24 sacks, quarterback Chad Pennington rarely took more than a three-step drop and needed the shotgun to buy extra time to look downfield.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_football_nfl/2009/01/dolphins-fire-o.html

Yeah, but see...while it may have been a clear weakness for the Dolphins, it most certainly was a weakness for us as well.

They just may have had a slightly less sucky offensive line...

CanesSkins26 wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Pennington, for example, finished second in the NFL in qb rating with a wide receiving core of Ted Ginn Jr., Greg Camirillo, and Devone Bess. His tight end was Anthony Fazano.

Yeah, b/c everyone was worried about Miami's air attack

Um, the Dolphins were 10th in the NFL in passing yards a game last season. Their rushing offense was 11th in the NFL. So they had a very balanced offense last year. By comparison, the Redskins' rushing offense was ranked 8th in the league. Despite having a below average wide receiver core and a rushing attack that averaged less yards than ours, Pennington completed 67 percent of his passes and threw 19 tds. It was also Pennington's first year in the Dolphins' offense.

Um... the point of the comment was that the FOCUS of the Miami offense for an opposing defense was the Wildcat rushing offense. The passing game benefitted from defenses focusing on the rushing side of that offense.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

The offensive line is at best early twenties, and the WR core is bottom 3, easily.

We might not have one of the better wide receiver cores in the NFL but that is a ridiculous statement. Moss was 13th in the NFL in yards and 15th in receptions. That's middle of the road as far as #1 receivers go. ey finished 2nd among tight ends in catches and 4th in yards. Between ey and Moss, JC had more to work with than some other NFL qbs that posted similar or better numbers. Pennington, for example, finished second in the NFL in qb rating with a wide receiving core of Ted Ginn Jr., Greg Camirillo, and Devone Bess. His tight end was Anthony Fazano. Similarly, Jeff Garcia was top 10 in qb rating with Anthony Bryant, Michale Clayton, and Ike Hilliard as his main receiving targets. Obviously our receiver play needs to improve but they aren't as bad as you are making them out to be.

So, we had a middle of the road #1, a mediocre #2, and no form of # 3 at all. A lot of the reason that moss had so many yards is that there was no one else to throw to. Many teams can go 3 and 4 deep creating issues for other teams, we can barely go two. We also have no WR's that can make tough catches, or win jump balls downfield/in the end zone. I don't count ey as a WR. If the WR's were being scouted they would be in the bottom five or seven in the league, maybe not bottom 3. But there really isn't much difference between the bottom teams anyway.

Yes, lets break it down into two parts.

First half and second half of the season.


First half for the skins.......

O-line doing great run blocking, CP 100% eating up yardage. opposing defences focusing on stoping CP.

The result for the Skins first half = 6-2 JC was playing great.

First half for the Fins
Braking long TD runs through the Wild Cat formation. Defences focusing on stoping that.

The result, Chad was playing great for them.

Second Half for the Skins.

The line broke down, CP breaking down. Our Offencen switching game plan to compensate.

The result = opposing defences no longer had to focus as much on CP, and JC did not play great or have as much time with the ball.

Second Half for the Fins = Same as the first. Their o-line injuries, didn't slow down the tricky wildcat offense as much as it would a straight up rushing attack.

The main thing here I think, is the fact that we had to change up our game plan with the injuries but the Fins could still effectivelly run the wildcat with a broken down line. There are more blockers from the wildcat, and that extra blocker really helps when you need line help.