The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

However, even you have to acknowledge that he did show improvement in the turnover department; he dramatically cut down on the interceptions (11 in 2007 to 6 in 2008) and fumbles (13 in 2007 to 7 in 2008).

PulpExposure wrote:Ray, you're right in that the production, touchdown-wise, from Campbell last season was unacceptable.

However, even you have to acknowledge that he did show improvement in the turnover department; he dramatically cut down on the interceptions (11 in 2007 to 6 in 2008) and fumbles (13 in 2007 to 7 in 2008).

And I'm not sure I'd use Favre as a counterexample (when you have so many others you could use...); as yes, he threw for 22 TDs, but he also threw for 22 INTs. You could very well argue that while the 9 extra TDs would have helped tremendously, equally valid is that the 16 extra INTs would have doomed us to a 4-12 season.

Campbell didn't make many (ok...any) plays...but he also didn't kill us with mistakes. Not saying that's enough to say he's the bona-fide QB for the future of the Redskins (I'm well on record with having an open competition for the position in camp), but having a QB that limits mistakes has been a successful strategy for (admittedly better overall) teams in the past.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

However, even you have to acknowledge that he did show improvement in the turnover department; he dramatically cut down on the interceptions (11 in 2007 to 6 in 2008) and fumbles (13 in 2007 to 7 in 2008).

Yes JC improved his int numbers, but who really cares? The focus on turnovers, imo, is vastly overblown. Just look at how many int's the top quarterbacks in the NFL threw this season.

Brees: 17
Warner: 14
Manning: 12
Rodgers: 13
Romo: 14
McNabb: 11
Cutler: 18

The difference between them and JC is that each of those qb's had over 20 tds this season. Part of the reason why I think JC limited his pics this year is because he played scared and looked like he was afraid of making mistakes.

RayNAustin wrote:

brad7686 wrote:Um, no not at all.

Moss rarely gets open downfield anymore, and he dropped many catchable balls when he did. Why? Because he has bad hands, doesn't adjust to the ball, and is short. Randle El is never open downfield. Thomas didn't get open downfield. Kelly got hit in the chest with one and dropped it. That's a summary of our downfield passing this year. Maybe JC messed up 3 or 4, but more were just balls no one made a play on. I don't know if you have ever watched T.O., Plax, or Fitz play, or even Rowdy Roddy, Jennings, Andre Johnson, Houshmandzadeh, Colston, etc., but we do not have anyone half as good in a jump ball situation as they are, and they also have the physicality to keep corners off them downfield. It would be one thing if Moss still had young speed like DeSean Jackson, but he no longer does.

T.O. ? T.O. ? Doesn't he lead the league or close to leading it in dropped passes? And Campbell missed 3 or 4 plays ALL YEAR ????

First, this critique of Santana Moss is absurd, and he's open down field in virtually every game with Campbell failing to even notice him (which also obliterates the nonsense that Campbell only fouled up 3 or 4 passes all year. The truth is more like 3-4 passes or more PER GAME). And unlike last year, when Moss's nagging injuries were being used as an excuse, he remained relatively healthy this year, and was constantly getting behind the secondaries DEEP. Had he had a QB on his team, he'd have finished in the top 5 receivers in the league. As it turned out, he still had more catches and more yards than many of the names you mentioned that are supposedly so superior to him.

brad7686 wrote:Look at Favre with Greg Jennings and then without like this year in New York. Rodgers played much better than Favre did. Why? Greg Jennings is a beast. The jets have a better version of Moss/El in Cotchery/Coles, but they still aren't big playmakers downfield. That's why Favre struggled. Other than Drew Brees after Colston got hurt, there is no one in the league putting up big passing numbers without an elite receiver in the NFL.

Greg Jennings had 1 more catch than Santana, and 250 more yards for the year. And I contend that the difference is that Rodgers performed head and shoulders above Campbell. I'd also contend that there is not an elite receiver out there that doesn't have a solid QB throwing to him. And yes, let's do look at Favre without the 'beasts' that Rodgers apparently has, he still threw 22 TD's compared to Campbell's paltry 13.

Another case in point: look at Randy Moss 2007 numbers with Brady and then look at his numbers in 2008 with Cassel. Did Randy lose a step or forget how to get open? That's what they were saying about him when he was with the Raiders, but as soon as he landed in New England with Brady, he put that nonsense to bed. No. Brady is just a superior QB, as is Brees, Warner, Rivers, Cutler, and the first year starter Rodgers who had never started an NFL game in his life before this year and still threw for over 4,000 yards and 28 TDs......which should also dispel the lame notion that it takes 4 years for a young QB to BEGIN TO PERFORM at a high level.

brad7686 wrote:If JC's release was as slow as you say, all his downfield throws would have been picked by safeties. That didn't happen. He does however, get out of the snap slowly which prevents quick passing. That would be a key problem that needs to be fixed. Especially watching Warner pick apart the Eagles blitz the other day with quick passes.

Ridiculous. Quite often his throws are well overthrown down field, and fall incomplete. Other times he doesn't even throw it or see the open receiver, and when he does, he waits too long, allowing the secondary to close and defend the play, so I doubt that he'd become a wizard with the fade passes even if he had a 6' 5" jump ball snatcher. His accuracy and touch on balls is highly suspect and very inconsistent. And given the number of dirt balls he throws, I don't think taller would help much.

brad7686 wrote: In general, the passing game is inept at all positions, including playcalling, and until everyone pulls their weight, we won't have a passing game. No more dropping 4 3rd down passes, No more holding the ball, no more calling routes that end before the first down, no more running routes that end before the first down, etc. And someone needs to become a playmaker. Otherwise, no. Same as last year.

That's what was said last year. Yet, Collins managed to overcome the bad play calling and the poor o-line and the midget receivers with bad hands. And this year we had a new set of coaches and a new approach to offense with Zorn, and Campbell still showed the same difficulties. Campbells relatively decent yardage and completion percentage stats (which is the primary cause of the decent QB rating) this year have more to do with the short, high percentage passing attack, and yards after catch than his QB skills which were more accurately defined by his lack of scoring and ability to make the big play.

Yesterday's Super Bowl illustrates the significance of the skills and ability that Campbell has failed to demonstrate. Big Ben was harassed and chased quite a bit all day, yet he scrambled, avoided sacks and made the big plays when he needed them (no blame the o-line game going on in Pittsburgh). And Warner defeated the pressure of the Steelers defense by finding the open receiver and getting rid of the ball quickly even though his number one and number two receivers were taken out of play for almost the entire first half. He still managed to find his third and fourth options .. picked up on the blitzes and pressure and made plays all day long while being knocked to the ground after releasing the ball. And without a running game (33 yards), Warner threw for 377 yards against the number 1 defense in the NFL. Think the Cardinals would have made it to the Super Bowl and come close to winning it with Leinart at the helm? No. They'd have finished below 500 and would have been watching the playoffs on TV just like the Redskins, even with those great receivers. Just take a look at the numbers for Boldin and Fitzgerald in 2006 with Leinart, and compare that to their numbers with Warner.

Keep in mind something here. Yesterday's game proves that one or two plays can dramatically alter the results of a game. Take away that 1 interception, and that 1 great pass/catch to Holmes for a TD, and the Cardinals win the Super Bowl 30 to 13. 2 plays!

Now tell me that having a QB that can make a couple of plays on his own each game wouldn't dramatically change the entire season and the poor offensive results we've become accustomed to seeing over the past three years?

PulpExposure wrote:... Campbell didn't make many (ok...any) plays...but he also didn't kill us with mistakes. Not saying that's enough to say he's the bona-fide QB for the future of the Redskins (I'm well on record with having an open competition for the position in camp), but having a QB that limits mistakes has been a successful strategy for (admittedly better overall) teams in the past.

Countertrey wrote:The topic.

What the heck is with this kid?

Clearly, he has talent. He's big. He's fast. He has a powerful arm, and has demonstrated the ability to throw with accuracy, both short and long... as long as nothing is on the line. When he decides to run, he consistently picks up chunks exceeding 15 yards...

On the other hand... he has a PAINFULLY slow delivery. He won't run unless he gets a telegraphed message to move...

He's terrified of making a mistake... He's completely risk averse...

One of the most talented players in the league... afraid to use his talent.

Why???

He has no killer instinct.

I still have hope he'll find his mojo...

I won't be surprised if he doesn't have a clue.

Sad. Truly.

Everybody brings out Big Ben and Flacco, who AREN"T EVEN BETTER than Campbell.

brad7686 wrote:
First, I only said Campbell fouled up 3 or 4 Deep Balls, not passes in general. Obviously, he blew a lot more passes than that. Considering the lack of deep balls that were thrown, fouling up 3 or 4 is somewhat significant, yet not as significant as the drops and lack of playmaking ability of the receivers last year.

brad7686 wrote:Second, I challenge you to find tape of Santana Moss open downfield without anyone seeing him 3 or 4 times. If people are wide open downfield, and you don't see them, you are blind and get benched. Everyone who uses that argument has no proof. Honestly, I don't know how anybody who watched Fitzgerald and Boldin, and even Breaston and Holmes, last night can defend Moss' ability to catch and/or win a jump ball. And Moss is by far the best we have at this point.

RayNAustin wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:The Campbell debate has become irrational in the extreme. And expecting anything more of him than what we've already experienced has no foundation in fact or reality.

Thanks for that opinion, Ray, but it's only that... an opinion, and one that is definitely not grounded in fact or reality.

Jason's reached his apex? He's done at 27? Can't get any better under Zorn?

JC has showed improvement every year in just about every category. To assert that he can't continue to improve under the guidance of a QG guru like Zorn is a stretch, to say the least. And with the facts clearly showing his progression, asserting that he can't continue to progress is what shows no foundation in fact or reality.

Not true at all. In the category that really counts, his results have declined. So it is YOUR OPINION that is short on facts. The FACTS are his ability to put points on the board have digressed substantially each year he has played. First 7 games in 2006 = 10 TD's. (1.42 TD/g) Next 13 games in 2007 = 12 TD's (.92 TD /g) Next 16 games in 2008 = 13 TD's. (.81 TD /g) Furthermore, his yards per game and yards per play have declined slightly though remain fairly close from day one to present, so please do point out the big improvement you speak of.

Sure, his turnovers have improved and his completion percentage has as well (the two items that bumped up his QB rating). Is that the improvement you are citing? If so, I say that is due to an offensive system that revolves around short, high percentage passes that would obviously result in improvement in those areas. Yet the core issues with Campbell remain constant and consistent. He's slow. He doesn't have very good vision or ability to read defenses well. He locks in on one receiver. He holds the ball too long, and he misses a lot of down field opportunities either with poor accuracy or failing to see the open receivers at all.

Come on.....can you seriously watch the same season I just watched and make such outlandish remarks? Campbell looked like a High School jr in that 2-6 debackle of a finish, after a 6-2 start.

Take away the first half of the season, and this would be one of the worst QB performances in Redskin history. Very much closer to Heath Shuler than any other QB in recent memory.

And there is a reason why we aren't hearing any talk about getting him signed to an extension before the 2009 season. The Redskin FO and coaching staff are now beginning to have their doubts about Campbell as the long term solution too. Otherwise, they'd be hot to get him signed to an extension before he becomes a free agent at the end of the year.

Ray wrote:And expecting anything more of him than what we've already experienced has no foundation in fact or reality.

Ray wrote:Take away the first half of the season, and this would be one of the worst QB performances in Redskin history. Very much closer to Heath Shuler than any other QB in recent memory.

Ray wrote:And there is a reason why we aren't hearing any talk about getting him signed to an extension before the 2009 season.

Countertrey wrote:The topic.

What the heck is with this kid?

Clearly, he has talent. He's big. He's fast. He has a powerful arm, and has demonstrated the ability to throw with accuracy, both short and long... as long as nothing is on the line. When he decides to run, he consistently picks up chunks exceeding 15 yards...

On the other hand... he has a PAINFULLY slow delivery. He won't run unless he gets a telegraphed message to move...

He's terrified of making a mistake... He's completely risk averse...

One of the most talented players in the league... afraid to use his talent.

Why???

He has no killer instinct.

I still have hope he'll find his mojo...

I won't be surprised if he doesn't have a clue.

Sad. Truly.

SkinsFreak wrote:I never said JC improved in EVERY category. I merely established that his overall performance is trending upwards. Anyone could look at stats from ANY player and find areas where they've slipped, which is all you did. Additionally, I never said he was perfect in every area or that he doesn't have major room for improvement. Although JC is responsible for some criticism for the teams fall off in the 2nd half of the season, he's not totally at fault and other team aspects are liable as well.

SkinsFreak wrote: JC has showed improvement every year in just about every category. To assert that he can't continue to improve under the guidance of a QG guru like Zorn is a stretch, to say the least. And with the facts clearly showing his progression, asserting that he can't continue to progress is what shows no foundation in fact or reality.

SkinsFreak wrote:The facts show he is trending better, perhaps not in every single detail or category, but from an overall perspective, he's getting better with more room for improvement.

SkinsFreak wrote:In addition to that, simple logic would suggest that JC having the chance to be a full year starter for a 2nd year in a row in the same system means he'll have a better grasp of the new system. And further, simple logic would suggest that the guidance of a QB guru like Zorn will make him better.

SkinsFreak wrote:Is there a chance he won't improve? Sure... absolutely. But until his overall numbers start trending downwards, combined with the point of maximum system knowledge (meaning the point in time where he's learned all he can about the system), the facts and logic lend evidence there's a chance he'll get better, which was the initial question posed in this thread.

SkinsFreak wrote:If you think he won't improve and has reached his apex, fine, that's your opinion. But it's an opinion that, at this point in time, isn't supported by logic or the facts. I'm not saying he won't get benched at some point or the Skins won't move in another direction at QB in the future. I'm also not saying he's a lock for the Pro Bowl or is the 10-year answer at QB for us. I'm simply saying there's a good chance he'll get better than what we saw from him at the end of last season.

SkinsFreak wrote: Oh... that's brilliant. Umm... "if you purposely ignore all the games he played well in, he'll look like the worst in history!"

SkinsFreak wrote:Is that reason that the FO isn't all that confident in JC? Perhaps, but that can't be proven by you or anyone else at this point. The reason could also be that they have limited cap space this year, have already got JC signed through next year, and since there might not be a cap in 2010 and need the limited space this year to do what they can to upgrade the team, see no need to spend the limited cap money on him now. That is certainly a plausible scenario.

BigRedskinDaddy wrote:I say yes. This will be his 2nd year with Zorn, and by all rights both MK and Devin11 should contribute much more than they did last year. Bigger, stronger, faster wideouts, a somewhat revamped O-line <fingers crossed> and a healthy CP all point to significant improvement.

Will it be enough, as others have asked?
I sure hope so.

VetSkinsFan wrote:Yeah, but if they continue to run CP 30x/game... he won't stay healthy.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

BigRedskinDaddy wrote:I say yes. This will be his 2nd year with Zorn, and by all rights both MK and Devin11 should contribute much more than they did last year. Bigger, stronger, faster wideouts, a somewhat revamped O-line <fingers crossed> and a healthy CP all point to significant improvement.

Will it be enough, as others have asked?
I sure hope so.

Yeah, but if they continue to run CP 30x/game... he won't stay healthy.

RayNAustin wrote:That last point I agree with. He couldn't possibly do worse than he did in the second half of 2008, so the obvious conclusion is that he'd likely improve on that.

Roster Review: Quarterbacks

Redskins.com breaks down the Redskins’ roster position-by-position and identifies potential need areas. Up first: quarterbacks.

Jason Campbell started 16 games for the first time in his NFL career last season. He experienced plenty of ups and downs as the Redskins’ signal caller.

Learning his third offense in four NFL seasons, Campbell quickly settled into the West Coast system run by head coach Jim Zorn.

He got off to a hot start in guiding the Redskins to a 4-1 record. He was among the league leaders in passing through five weeks and his 67-yard touchdown pass to Santana Moss to beat the New Orleans Saints remains one of the memorable moments of the season.

Remarkably, Campbell threw 249 passes without an interception to open the season. Dating back to 2007, he set a club record with 271 consecutive passes without an interception. (The mark is the fifth longest in NFL history.)

In the second half of the season, Campbell cooled off and the Redskins’ offense averaged just 12.5 points per game. (The offense averaged 20.6 points per game in Weeks 1-8.)

For the season, Campbell completed 315-of-506 passes for 3,245 yards, 13 touchdowns and six interceptions. His QB rating was 84.3.

Campbell set a single-season franchise mark with a 1.19 interception percentage, besting the previous mark of 1.54 held by Mark Brunell in 2006.

Campbell faced an intense pass rush at times and 22 of his 38 sacks came in the second half of the season. He was sacked seven times in a midseason game against eventual Super Bowl XLIII champion Pittsburgh.

He was able to use his mobility effectively at times, scrambling for 258 yards and a touchdown last season.

Todd Collins served as Campbell’s primary backup and did not get into a game.

Collins, a 14-year veteran, completed his third season in Washington.

Of course, Collins is best remembered for his performance in December 2007 when he led the Redskins to four consecutive wins and a playoff berth.

Colt Brennan spent his rookie season as the Redskins’ third quarterback. The 2008 sixth-round draft pick impressed during preseason, but it was evident he had a high learning curve.

Zorn emphasizes a strong, high release, so Brennan has worked to adjust how he throws the ball. His sidearm release, prevalent in preseason, is not as prominent now.

Positional Analysis

Jason Campbell is the quarterback of the present for the Redskins.

Another season in Zorn’s offense should help Campbell improve his game--and the Redskins’ offensive production.

What about long term?

Executive vice president of football operations Vinny Cerrato said in January that Campbell would be evaluated “year to year.”

In 36 career starts, Campbell’s record is 16-20. He is scheduled to become a free agent after the 2009 season.

Collins is 37 years old and it’s possible the Redskins could seek a younger backup to Campbell next season.

Still, Collins is a solid veteran backup who has proven he can lead the Redskins’ offense.

Brennan remains a work in progress. If he shows significant improvement this offseason, he could challenge to become Campbell’s primary backup.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Everybody brings out Big Ben and Flacco, who AREN"T EVEN BETTER than Campbell.

Total nonsense. Big Ben is in a whole other league compared to Campbell. Ignoring everything else, Big Ben actually makes plays, JC doesn't.

RayNAustin wrote:

brad7686 wrote:
First, I only said Campbell fouled up 3 or 4 Deep Balls, not passes in general. Obviously, he blew a lot more passes than that. Considering the lack of deep balls that were thrown, fouling up 3 or 4 is somewhat significant, yet not as significant as the drops and lack of playmaking ability of the receivers last year.

I recall a heck of a lot more missed deep balls than 3 or 4. And the play making ability of the receivers tends to be directly associated with the QB getting them the ball.

brad7686 wrote:Second, I challenge you to find tape of Santana Moss open downfield without anyone seeing him 3 or 4 times. If people are wide open downfield, and you don't see them, you are blind and get benched. Everyone who uses that argument has no proof. Honestly, I don't know how anybody who watched Fitzgerald and Boldin, and even Breaston and Holmes, last night can defend Moss' ability to catch and/or win a jump ball. And Moss is by far the best we have at this point.

Sure, let me dig them up out of the film room. But seriously, Moss has demonstrated, proven ability, whereas Campbell hasn't proven anything other than inconsistency. And I watched all of the games, and I saw and heard the commentators point out Moss open deep SEVERAL times. I recall even hearing Sonny say on the radio that ARE was wide open down the sideline but Campbell didn't see him.

Furthermore, Joe Gibbs even said that Moss was the best receiver he's ever had at locating and catching deep balls.

No, there is definitely a passing, not catching problem here.

brad7686 wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Everybody brings out Big Ben and Flacco, who AREN"T EVEN BETTER than Campbell.

Total nonsense. Big Ben is in a whole other league compared to Campbell. Ignoring everything else, Big Ben actually makes plays, JC doesn't.

I would argue that the one good drive which big ben has a game, which always occurs at the end, when they are only in the game due to defense, is matched by campbell at some random point in quarters 1-4. Statistics back that up.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Everybody brings out Big Ben and Flacco, who AREN"T EVEN BETTER than Campbell.

Total nonsense. Big Ben is in a whole other league compared to Campbell. Ignoring everything else, Big Ben actually makes plays, JC doesn't.

I would argue that the one good drive which big ben has a game, which always occurs at the end, when they are only in the game due to defense, is matched by campbell at some random point in quarters 1-4. Statistics back that up.

Wow, imagine that. A qb making big plays at the end of a game. That right there is enough to say that Big Ben is FAR superior to JC. However, if that isn't enough for you then the stats make my case perfectly.

Career Stats
JC - 80.4 qb rating, 59.7 completion percentage, 6.4 yards per attempt, 35 tds, 23 ints, 2 rushing tds, 9 lost fumbles.

Big Ben - 89.4 qb rating, 62.4 completion percentage, 7.9 yards per attempt, 101 tds, 69 ints, 10 rushing tds, 15 lost fumbles.

Big Ben's playoffs qb rating is 91.6. In 2007 he had 32 tds, that's almost as many in one season as JC has had his entire career.

JC has played in 36 games and only thrown 35 tds, just under 1 td per game. That is a joke. Big Ben, on the other hand, has thrown 101 tds in 72 career games, good for approximately 1.4 passing tds per game. Big Ben posts far greater td number despite the fact that his career high for attempts in a season is 469. JC attempted 506 passes in 2008 and still only managed 13 tds.

It's amazing that you can watch Big Ben and JC play and think that they are equals as qbs.

SkinsFreak wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Everybody brings out Big Ben and Flacco, who AREN"T EVEN BETTER than Campbell.

Total nonsense. Big Ben is in a whole other league compared to Campbell. Ignoring everything else, Big Ben actually makes plays, JC doesn't.

I would argue that the one good drive which big ben has a game, which always occurs at the end, when they are only in the game due to defense, is matched by campbell at some random point in quarters 1-4. Statistics back that up.

Wow, imagine that. A qb making big plays at the end of a game. That right there is enough to say that Big Ben is FAR superior to JC. However, if that isn't enough for you then the stats make my case perfectly.

Career Stats
JC - 80.4 qb rating, 59.7 completion percentage, 6.4 yards per attempt, 35 tds, 23 ints, 2 rushing tds, 9 lost fumbles.

Big Ben - 89.4 qb rating, 62.4 completion percentage, 7.9 yards per attempt, 101 tds, 69 ints, 10 rushing tds, 15 lost fumbles.

Big Ben's playoffs qb rating is 91.6. In 2007 he had 32 tds, that's almost as many in one season as JC has had his entire career.

JC has played in 36 games and only thrown 35 tds, just under 1 td per game. That is a joke. Big Ben, on the other hand, has thrown 101 tds in 72 career games, good for approximately 1.4 passing tds per game. Big Ben posts far greater td number despite the fact that his career high for attempts in a season is 469. JC attempted 506 passes in 2008 and still only managed 13 tds.

It's amazing that you can watch Big Ben and JC play and think that they are equals as qbs.

That's not the comparison he's making, Canes26. You're comparing the QB's playing with their own respective teams, which means QB numbers alone don't tell the whole story. What he is suggesting is would the Steelers be just as good if you simply substituted JC for Rothlescsawmberger. If JC played for the Steelers instead of Big Ben, would JC's numbers be similar? I think they might.

PulpExposure wrote:I actually don't. Ben plays behind an even worse line than Campbell does, and keeps plays alive with his legs to an absurd degree. I don't see Campbell having that same ability...and therefore, I think he wouldn't do as well behind that o-line as Ben has.