The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Countertrey wrote:

Thats the x-factor that Colt showed in the preseason.

Clint Longley showed that kind of "x-factor" as well... remember him?

(Hint: ONE Thanksgiving game... [the horror])


Colt may be the real deal. It's just as likely that he is smoke and mirrors.

I just like the "innocent until proven guilty" theory. He hasn't given us a reason to doubt him. He's produced when asked to produce, so he has my support until he gives me a reason not to. That's my whole angle.

Here's why we probably WILL NOT draft an Offensive lineman this year, a direct quote from Vincinzo Cerrato:

Cerrato said drafting according to need can be a way to sink your team. "You can't just go take a need," was the exact quote. "The way that you can screw up your team is if you go draft a need, you're gonna get a bunch of guys at those positions but you're not gonna be happy with the results."

My question is...why are we the ONLY team in this past draft who took a punter, whom we cut??? Why couldn't we have drafted another O-lineman besides Rinehart? I see a lot of posts saying we need O-linemen in THIS draft, what about the last 3-5 drafts?

We've drafted 3 O-linemen since 2003

1. Derrick Dockery 3rd round 2003 - We let him become a free agent because his price was too high, which we could have controlled if we tried to sign him to an extension. Now, he's in Buffalo.

2. Kili Lefotu 7th round 2006 - Got arrested in Loudoun County and then Gibbs cut him.

3. Chad Rinehart 3rd Round 2008 - We really have yet to see what he can do because he's been inactive so far this season with one game to go. Is the guy hurt or what, and if he is hurt, how will that affect his performance IF and when he ever gets on the field?


It seems like the S.O.P. has been to try and BUY a championship team here signing FAs instead of BUILDING a championship team through the draft. It's evident when we trade picks for damaged goods like Erasmus James, who had more than one surgery on his knee and never recorded a tackle. Bye Bye 7th round pick which now goes to Minnesota for that debacle. BTW, the 7th round is where we picked up Chris Horton, one of the only bright spots in this past draft. Jason Taylor is in the sunset of his career and we gave up not only the 2nd pick in next years draft but our 6th rounder in 2010 AND we have to pay him $8 million.

Enough is enough, BUILD through the DRAFT!!!!

Thundersloth wrote:We've drafted 3 O-linemen since 2003

1. Derrick Dockery 3rd round 2003 - We let him become a free agent because his price was too high, which we could have controlled if we tried to sign him to an extension. Now, he's in Buffalo.

2. Kili Lefotu 7th round 2006 - Got arrested in Loudoun County and then Gibbs cut him.

3. Chad Rinehart 3rd Round 2008 - We really have yet to see what he can do because he's been inactive so far this season with one game to go. Is the guy hurt or what, and if he is hurt, how will that affect his performance IF and when he ever gets on the field?

You forgot Molinaro and Wilson in the 2004 draft...

Samuels went to the Pro-Bowl, so he MUST have not done too bad this year. I doubt he's not there at left tackle next year.

I agree that Samuels is the LT for the Redskins for another year.

The fact that he or anyone is on the Pro Bowl has absolutely nothing to do with their play this year - being selected on Peter King's Fantasy team has more relevance to their performance than being selelected to the Pro Bowl.

It is my opinion that a team of players that were not selected to the Pro Bowl from BOTH the AFC and the NFC would most likely be better teams than those selected

Redskin in Canada wrote:

gibbs4president wrote:Jansen will be back. He might not play, but he'll be with the team.

I do not think so unless he takes a HUGE pay cut.

AND even that might not get him back - if he comes back it is for depth only and for a lot less money.

I love Jansen and think he is a team leader but we cannot afford him at his salary and should only keep him if he really wants to be here for the right $ and to provide some leadership. This guy is a class NFL tackle but his great plays are behind him. He is probably still better than a lot of RTs though.

Cooley47 wrote:Maybe next year could be Samuels - Rinehart - Rookie(Caldwell from BAMA 1st rd, Mack from CAL or Luigs from ARK 3rd rd. Others?) - Thomas - Heyer... Or Heyer-Rinehart-Rabach-Thomas-Rookie or Rookie-Rine-Rookie-Thomas-Heyer...

?

Maybe it could be Rookie - Rookie - Rookie - Rookie - Rookie

I would be very surprised if a rookie lineman is starting on our offensive line next September - I do think that we need to add a guard and RT and draft a couple of linemen for depth - we also need a line that can get the rushing yards when you need them, in the 4th qtr - we almost had the NFL leading RB but because we could not score enough points we were forced to get away from our runnning game when we should have been trying to run down the clock with Portis.

We need a line that can better pass protect - Campbell is slow but he also got very little time from this offensive line

PulpExposure wrote:

Thundersloth wrote:We've drafted 3 O-linemen since 2003

1. Derrick Dockery 3rd round 2003 - We let him become a free agent because his price was too high, which we could have controlled if we tried to sign him to an extension. Now, he's in Buffalo.

2. Kili Lefotu 7th round 2006 - Got arrested in Loudoun County and then Gibbs cut him.

3. Chad Rinehart 3rd Round 2008 - We really have yet to see what he can do because he's been inactive so far this season with one game to go. Is the guy hurt or what, and if he is hurt, how will that affect his performance IF and when he ever gets on the field?

You forgot Molinaro and Wilson in the 2004 draft...

You are correct Pulp, I forgot about Mollinaro he lasted until 2006 and I think Wilson was drafted as a Tackle. Whatever the case, if you don't necessarily draft for need, I'm sure there were a few more O-linemen we could have picked up via the draft.

I found this little article to be very interesting:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... t-in-line/

Drafting linemen in the first three rounds has not been a priority in the Dan Snyder era. Since 2000, only 14 of the team's 57 picks have been linemen and just three - Samuels, Rinehart and Derrick Dockery - were chosen in the first three rounds. The focus has been flashy playmakers, not the brawlers who block for them.

One thing you have to note with respect to drafting offensive linemen, is it was crystal clear under Joe Gibbs he had really no interest in playing rookie linemen, but wanted veterans.

Instead of using the draft to garner o-linemen, we used free agency and trade to build a veteran line for Gibbs. Rabach, Thomas, and Kendell, the entire interior of our line, was constructed by FA, and trade. And you can argue the results were good...until the line got old.

Two years ago, I thought we had a top line in NFL (19 sacks given up, great rushing attack, etc.) It's fallen back to earth since then. Hard.

I remember the dockery pick, he is a really big body and can block turned out he could move fairly well too. It is really unpredictable, to a point, what even the top rated pass and run blockers can do at the pro level, there are not many complete bust...

SkinsFreak wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Every one is so quick to put the blame on the offensive line.

You guys do know that Portis managed to pick up 1400 yards rushing. If the offensive line was so bad how did we manage to rush for so much?

Do not tell me that Portis managed to gain those yards all on his own.

Um, you do realize that run blocking and pass blocking are two completely different disciplines that require completely different techniques, right? For example, Jansen wasn't too shabby in the run blocking category, but routinely got smoked when pass blocking. It's the poor pass protection they are referring to, not the run blocking. JC has been sacked 37 times, 4th most in the league.

Well basically I am not gonna throw the whole offensive line under the bus. I just think there is far more to this thing then just the offensive line.

I managed to to record most of the games. Routinely teams would overload blitz and our team was caught with just five men blocking. Not much you can do with six men rushing the QB and five blocking. Couple that with a slow release by the QB, receivers not getting open and you get a QB sack.

I do think we need some youth added to the line. I also factor in Jansen and Thomas coming back from injuries. They still are not 100 percent.

If any of you happened to catch the COwboys vs Giants game? If you noticed how Romo was getting pressured consistently he still managed to get rid of the ball and win the game. Granted the Giants are one of the best at rushing the QB but Romo knows how to dump the ball off and even fire the ball in to tight spaces.

My point being most sacks can be avoided. I promise you if Peyton Manning were our QB you could drop our sack total two thirds. Also the QB is designated leader of the team. Take the responsibility lift your team up when they are down. Man up for goodness sakes! JCs body language on the field is atrocious.

HEROHAMO wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Every one is so quick to put the blame on the offensive line.

You guys do know that Portis managed to pick up 1400 yards rushing. If the offensive line was so bad how did we manage to rush for so much?

Do not tell me that Portis managed to gain those yards all on his own.

Um, you do realize that run blocking and pass blocking are two completely different disciplines that require completely different techniques, right? For example, Jansen wasn't too shabby in the run blocking category, but routinely got smoked when pass blocking. It's the poor pass protection they are referring to, not the run blocking. JC has been sacked 37 times, 4th most in the league.

Well basically I am not gonna throw the whole offensive line under the bus. I just think there is far more to this thing then just the offensive line.

I managed to to record most of the games. Routinely teams would overload blitz and our team was caught with just five men blocking. Not much you can do with six men rushing the QB and five blocking. Couple that with a slow release by the QB, receivers not getting open and you get a QB sack.

I do think we need some youth added to the line. I also factor in Jansen and Thomas coming back from injuries. They still are not 100 percent.

If any of you happened to catch the COwboys vs Giants game? If you noticed how Romo was getting pressured consistently he still managed to get rid of the ball and win the game. Granted the Giants are one of the best at rushing the QB but Romo knows how to dump the ball off and even fire the ball in to tight spaces.

My point being most sacks can be avoided. I promise you if Peyton Manning were our QB you could drop our sack total two thirds. Also the QB is designated leader of the team. Take the responsibility lift your team up when they are down. Man up for goodness sakes! JCs body language on the field is atrocious.

I agree. Too many fans try to blame one thing for the Skins problems. The first half of the season the OL, Campbell and Portis looked like Pro Bowlers. I can rattle of a bunch of factors:

1. rest of the league had enough game tape by the 2nd half to see our OL was not as strong as we thought
2. Since we were winning largely through running and defense, it makes sense to blitz more. This means 7 or 8 players coming to disrupt the run blocking early and put pressure on Campbell. Why not? It's not like we could consistently beat anyone with the pass.
3. Portis was getting confused whether he was supposed to stay and block or go out on a pass route. I blame Zorn for this.
4. Portis started to get banged up, which confounds our one dimensional offense even more.
5. Marcus Washington, Rocky, Springs, the DT's were all hurt making our defense less of a force for a few games.
6. Offensive line had a reash of injuries which made it worse yet again.
7. By this time the team was coming apart and the media/fans were upset. Digging out of a hole like that is extremely tough because everyone is questioning everything and confidence is shot.

So I think you have to look at the team structure overall. Who steps in for our lineman when they get injured? Who our our backup DL and LB's? Who is pushing Campbell, Portis and Moss for their jobs? Like I said in the "Keys to Success" thread, the Redskins remain competitive because we spend big money on top players. But we have little depth and very few positions that have to win their job and compete to keep their job. So we are largely a top heavy franchise with older payers who are relatively complacent. That has to change before we can weather the storm of a 20 game season.

fleetus wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Every one is so quick to put the blame on the offensive line.

You guys do know that Portis managed to pick up 1400 yards rushing. If the offensive line was so bad how did we manage to rush for so much?

Do not tell me that Portis managed to gain those yards all on his own.

Um, you do realize that run blocking and pass blocking are two completely different disciplines that require completely different techniques, right? For example, Jansen wasn't too shabby in the run blocking category, but routinely got smoked when pass blocking. It's the poor pass protection they are referring to, not the run blocking. JC has been sacked 37 times, 4th most in the league.

Well basically I am not gonna throw the whole offensive line under the bus. I just think there is far more to this thing then just the offensive line.

I managed to to record most of the games. Routinely teams would overload blitz and our team was caught with just five men blocking. Not much you can do with six men rushing the QB and five blocking. Couple that with a slow release by the QB, receivers not getting open and you get a QB sack.

I do think we need some youth added to the line. I also factor in Jansen and Thomas coming back from injuries. They still are not 100 percent.

If any of you happened to catch the COwboys vs Giants game? If you noticed how Romo was getting pressured consistently he still managed to get rid of the ball and win the game. Granted the Giants are one of the best at rushing the QB but Romo knows how to dump the ball off and even fire the ball in to tight spaces.

My point being most sacks can be avoided. I promise you if Peyton Manning were our QB you could drop our sack total two thirds. Also the QB is designated leader of the team. Take the responsibility lift your team up when they are down. Man up for goodness sakes! JCs body language on the field is atrocious.

I agree. Too many fans try to blame one thing for the Skins problems. The first half of the season the OL, Campbell and Portis looked like Pro Bowlers. I can rattle of a bunch of factors:

1. rest of the league had enough game tape by the 2nd half to see our OL was not as strong as we thought
2. Since we were winning largely through running and defense, it makes sense to blitz more. This means 7 or 8 players coming to disrupt the run blocking early and put pressure on Campbell. Why not? It's not like we could consistently beat anyone with the pass.
3. Portis was getting confused whether he was supposed to stay and block or go out on a pass route. I blame Zorn for this.
4. Portis started to get banged up, which confounds our one dimensional offense even more.
5. Marcus Washington, Rocky, Springs, the DT's were all hurt making our defense less of a force for a few games.
6. Offensive line had a reash of injuries which made it worse yet again.
7. By this time the team was coming apart and the media/fans were upset. Digging out of a hole like that is extremely tough because everyone is questioning everything and confidence is shot.

So I think you have to look at the team structure overall. Who steps in for our lineman when they get injured? Who our our backup DL and LB's? Who is pushing Campbell, Portis and Moss for their jobs? Like I said in the "Keys to Success" thread, the Redskins remain competitive because we spend big money on top players. But we have little depth and very few positions that have to win their job and compete to keep their job. So we are largely a top heavy franchise with older payers who are relatively complacent. That has to change before we can weather the storm of a 20 game season.

Oh stop it. There is obviously only ONE reason why our offense struggled. It's the fault of (Please select one: Campbell, the line, the receviers, or the playcalling), and is immediately (Pick one: fixed by releasing or firing Campbell, the entire line, all of the receivers, or Zorn; or drafting a new quarterback, an entire new offensive line, Percy Harvin).

This post is from the new choose-your-own franchise disaster book series.

You know how the team will be markedly improved?

By waiting until next season. There's so much talent on this team that another year in the same system for these guys will make them probably a win or two better.

I would be happy if Laurenitis (sp) could fall to us at our pick and we use some of our later selections on linemen.

PulpExposure wrote:

fleetus wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Every one is so quick to put the blame on the offensive line.

You guys do know that Portis managed to pick up 1400 yards rushing. If the offensive line was so bad how did we manage to rush for so much?

Do not tell me that Portis managed to gain those yards all on his own.

Um, you do realize that run blocking and pass blocking are two completely different disciplines that require completely different techniques, right? For example, Jansen wasn't too shabby in the run blocking category, but routinely got smoked when pass blocking. It's the poor pass protection they are referring to, not the run blocking. JC has been sacked 37 times, 4th most in the league.

Well basically I am not gonna throw the whole offensive line under the bus. I just think there is far more to this thing then just the offensive line.

I managed to to record most of the games. Routinely teams would overload blitz and our team was caught with just five men blocking. Not much you can do with six men rushing the QB and five blocking. Couple that with a slow release by the QB, receivers not getting open and you get a QB sack.

I do think we need some youth added to the line. I also factor in Jansen and Thomas coming back from injuries. They still are not 100 percent.

If any of you happened to catch the COwboys vs Giants game? If you noticed how Romo was getting pressured consistently he still managed to get rid of the ball and win the game. Granted the Giants are one of the best at rushing the QB but Romo knows how to dump the ball off and even fire the ball in to tight spaces.

My point being most sacks can be avoided. I promise you if Peyton Manning were our QB you could drop our sack total two thirds. Also the QB is designated leader of the team. Take the responsibility lift your team up when they are down. Man up for goodness sakes! JCs body language on the field is atrocious.

I agree. Too many fans try to blame one thing for the Skins problems. The first half of the season the OL, Campbell and Portis looked like Pro Bowlers. I can rattle of a bunch of factors:

1. rest of the league had enough game tape by the 2nd half to see our OL was not as strong as we thought
2. Since we were winning largely through running and defense, it makes sense to blitz more. This means 7 or 8 players coming to disrupt the run blocking early and put pressure on Campbell. Why not? It's not like we could consistently beat anyone with the pass.
3. Portis was getting confused whether he was supposed to stay and block or go out on a pass route. I blame Zorn for this.
4. Portis started to get banged up, which confounds our one dimensional offense even more.
5. Marcus Washington, Rocky, Springs, the DT's were all hurt making our defense less of a force for a few games.
6. Offensive line had a reash of injuries which made it worse yet again.
7. By this time the team was coming apart and the media/fans were upset. Digging out of a hole like that is extremely tough because everyone is questioning everything and confidence is shot.

So I think you have to look at the team structure overall. Who steps in for our lineman when they get injured? Who our our backup DL and LB's? Who is pushing Campbell, Portis and Moss for their jobs? Like I said in the "Keys to Success" thread, the Redskins remain competitive because we spend big money on top players. But we have little depth and very few positions that have to win their job and compete to keep their job. So we are largely a top heavy franchise with older payers who are relatively complacent. That has to change before we can weather the storm of a 20 game season.

Oh stop it. There is obviously only ONE reason why our offense struggled. It's the fault of (Please select one: Campbell, the line, the receviers, or the playcalling), and is immediately (Pick one: fixed by releasing or firing Campbell, the entire line, all of the receivers, or Zorn; or drafting a new quarterback, an entire new offensive line, Percy Harvin).

This post is from the new choose-your-own franchise disaster book series.

Its been a while since I went off on a rant. Had to ring in the new year the right way.

fleetus wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Every one is so quick to put the blame on the offensive line.

You guys do know that Portis managed to pick up 1400 yards rushing. If the offensive line was so bad how did we manage to rush for so much?

Do not tell me that Portis managed to gain those yards all on his own.

Um, you do realize that run blocking and pass blocking are two completely different disciplines that require completely different techniques, right? For example, Jansen wasn't too shabby in the run blocking category, but routinely got smoked when pass blocking. It's the poor pass protection they are referring to, not the run blocking. JC has been sacked 37 times, 4th most in the league.

Well basically I am not gonna throw the whole offensive line under the bus. I just think there is far more to this thing then just the offensive line.

I managed to to record most of the games. Routinely teams would overload blitz and our team was caught with just five men blocking. Not much you can do with six men rushing the QB and five blocking. Couple that with a slow release by the QB, receivers not getting open and you get a QB sack.

I do think we need some youth added to the line. I also factor in Jansen and Thomas coming back from injuries. They still are not 100 percent.

If any of you happened to catch the COwboys vs Giants game? If you noticed how Romo was getting pressured consistently he still managed to get rid of the ball and win the game. Granted the Giants are one of the best at rushing the QB but Romo knows how to dump the ball off and even fire the ball in to tight spaces.

My point being most sacks can be avoided. I promise you if Peyton Manning were our QB you could drop our sack total two thirds. Also the QB is designated leader of the team. Take the responsibility lift your team up when they are down. Man up for goodness sakes! JCs body language on the field is atrocious.

I agree. Too many fans try to blame one thing for the Skins problems. The first half of the season the OL, Campbell and Portis looked like Pro Bowlers. I can rattle of a bunch of factors:

1. rest of the league had enough game tape by the 2nd half to see our OL was not as strong as we thought
2. Since we were winning largely through running and defense, it makes sense to blitz more. This means 7 or 8 players coming to disrupt the run blocking early and put pressure on Campbell. Why not? It's not like we could consistently beat anyone with the pass.
3. Portis was getting confused whether he was supposed to stay and block or go out on a pass route. I blame Zorn for this.
4. Portis started to get banged up, which confounds our one dimensional offense even more.
5. Marcus Washington, Rocky, Springs, the DT's were all hurt making our defense less of a force for a few games.
6. Offensive line had a reash of injuries which made it worse yet again.
7. By this time the team was coming apart and the media/fans were upset. Digging out of a hole like that is extremely tough because everyone is questioning everything and confidence is shot.

So I think you have to look at the team structure overall. Who steps in for our lineman when they get injured? Who our our backup DL and LB's? Who is pushing Campbell, Portis and Moss for their jobs? Like I said in the "Keys to Success" thread, the Redskins remain competitive because we spend big money on top players. But we have little depth and very few positions that have to win their job and compete to keep their job. So we are largely a top heavy franchise with older payers who are relatively complacent. That has to change before we can weather the storm of a 20 game season.

Your wisdom is worth more than all the gold on earth.

The whole line will need to be revamped.

Rabach is a back up at best.

Kendall gets no push and has no consistent pop on contact.

Thomas is solid but he helps Rabach out alot

Jansen is a shell of old his-self and Pass rushers run around him.

Samuels is solid but helps out Kendall often.

Fabini sux very badly

Heyer cant seem to bend his knees and sux at run blocking

If we are going to keep the WCO in D.C. we will need guys on our line bigger than 296.

This is going to be a long ride folks

redskincity wrote:The whole line will need to be revamped.

Rabach is a back up at best.

Kendall gets no push and has no consistent pop on contact.

Thomas is solid but he helps Rabach out alot

Jansen is a shell of old his-self and Pass rushers run around him.

Samuels is solid but helps out Kendall often.

Fabini sux very badly

Heyer cant seem to bend his knees and sux at run blocking

If we are going to keep the WCO in D.C. we will need guys on our line bigger than 296.

This is going to be a long ride folks

I've had thoughts along a similar vein lately... while I'm not sure about your assessment of the starters, it's clear that rebuilding this line is going to be a major project, and will be critical to the hope of competing for an NFL championship.

It's going to require at least 2 years, assuming free agents are part of the equation, and a minimum of 3 years otherwise. I'm talking about developing a line that would be considered dominant, and able to pass block almost as effectively as it can run block. While Samuels is still more than servicable, and Thomas is a legit starter, all other positions are in need of immediate rework. Samuels will be starting to seriously show his age when any new players start to mature as NFL linemen, so an LT is part of the equation as well.

This is complicated by the concurrent need to do some serious talent development on the D-line.

I'm anxious to see how we remain competitive while rebuilding the Offensive line and (at a minimum) the interior Defensive line.

It's going to be a long off season. I think there will plenty of meat for discussion.

Thomas is solid but he helps Rabach out alot

this is interesting thomas is a starter next year and when, if he is helping with the center (rabach) then it does make it seemingly impossible to take care of the extra pass rusher, and as for jansen he was a little slow on the edges.
blocking as a back for the rbs is a tough assignment and to have to play a guessing game must be more difficult .