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Fair enough.VetSkinsFan wrote:I'm not defending the FO. I just like to buck up a little when people try to look like geniuses with hindsight. See this thead for people who have what it takes. I've never kept up with college so I don't even try to critique the draft and say "we should have done <insert brilliant hindsight idea here>." I can only critique what the guys that we DO draft do when given ample opportunity.
VetSkinsFan wrote:I'm not defending the FO. I just like to buck up a little when people try to look like geniuses with hindsight. See this thead for people who have what it takes. I've never kept up with college so I don't even try to critique the draft and say "we should have done <insert brilliant hindsight idea here>." I can only critique what the guys that we DO draft do when given ample opportunity.
for depth....Don't forget both Golston and Montgomery were late draft choices and are not spectacular, but solid.
Redskin in Canada wrote:When was the last time we had a real run stopper???Butz?
When was the last time we had a feared pass rusher?
That is an awful LONG time brother. The clowns at the Front Office have not come to the conclusion that games are won and lost in the trenches.
fleetus wrote:Don't forget both Golston and Montgomery were late draft choices and are not spectacular, but solid.
Chris Luva Luva wrote:By Dan Steinberg of the Washington Post....
http://mobile.washingtonpost.com/detail.jsp?key=328072&rc=dc_sp&p=0
Here's the key point: Cerrato said drafting according to need can be a way to sink your team. "You can't just go take a need," was the exact quote. "The way that you can screw up your team is if you go draft a need, you're gonna get a bunch of guys at those positions but you're not gonna be happy with the results."
And as an example, he pointed to the poor rookie seasons of two defensive ends who some Skins fans wanted: Miami's Phillip Merling, and Arizona's Calais Campbell.
I going to shoot myself - there is no hope for this franchise until Vinncy C. is gone.
"I mean, it came down to Phillip Merling, people say that we maybe should have taken," Cerrato said. "He has seven tackles right now for Miami."
Damning. Except it's not even close to accurate.
When Cerrato said this, Merling actually had 23 tackles (17 solo) and a sack, according to NFL.com. For a defensive end who has started just two games, that's actually not too shabby.
By way of comparison, Jason Taylor, who's banking $8 million and cost the team two draft picks, had 22 tackles (15 solo) and 1 sack at the time Cerrato offered this explanation, although Taylor did get three tackles and another half-sack yesterday. Andre Carter, the team's most productive end, had 30 tackles (18 solo) and 3 sacks at the time Cerrato was knocking Merling's production.
What can you even say? This is why this franchise is entrenched in mediocrity but I can't wait to see people defend this.
PulpExposure wrote:Our inability to draft a good defensive tackle/passrusher is something we, as a franchise, have never been able to do, no matter who controls the draft. It's bizarre, to say the least.
Redskin in Canada wrote:PulpExposure wrote:Our inability to draft a good defensive tackle/passrusher is something we, as a franchise, have never been able to do, no matter who controls the draft. It's bizarre, to say the least.
If they are not drafted, they can be lured to us via Free Agency, can they not???
Redskin in Canada wrote:PulpExposure wrote:Our inability to draft a good defensive tackle/passrusher is something we, as a franchise, have never been able to do, no matter who controls the draft. It's bizarre, to say the least.
If they are not drafted, they can be lured to us via Free Agency, can they not???
fleetus wrote:Wahoo McDaniels wrote:This is a ridiculous statement... no player would have been better than 6 of the 7 players that we got that have given us absolutely nothing.
Well, let's play fairy tale world and pick some players picked behind the Skins, who we could have gotten and problem would have provided better value than two WRs who were injured and out of shape, a TE who couldn't tell when to pass block and when to go out for a pass, an OG who couldn't beat out a 40 yr old or an Undrafted Free Agent, a CB who looks like the smallest player in the NFL and a Punter that, well, couldn't punt.
So let's take a look at some guys we "missed on" because of our crack Scouting Dept.
It's also ridiculous to play the annual, but ever so popular "Who We Coulda Had" game, which is an excercise in supreme skill and talent. You look at stat sheets of players on other teams, often playing in completely different schemes, and use hindsight to profess all our mistakes in the draft.
Fred Davis might have played better than Carlsen in Seattle.
With Cutler throwing to him, Kelly and Thomas might have similar stats to Royal. Especially when Denver's defense isn't much more than a Matador and forces Cutler to air it out every week.
Blame the Brooks pick on the Special teams coach. He lobbied hard for that guy.
Bottom line is, if you want to be negative, maybe you personally don't like Cerrato, then you can spend all your time pointing to "mistakes" and then go home a drink yourself to sleepBut most of us know that you can't judge any of our 2008 draft picks as busts or successes yet. WR's especially are notoriously slow to develop.
Personally, I hope Cerrato approaches the next couple of drafts exactly like he did last year. Use discipline and follow your own draft board and not stray from it because of a perceived need. Cerrato did not have Merling, Groves or Calais in his top 50 of his draft board. If you're desperate to fill a need, you aren't likely to get what you want from a rookie anyway and are better signing a free agent or making a trade. There isn't a Skins fan out there who, before the draft, would have chosen Phillip Merling over Jason Taylor.
So, you can claim hindsight 20/20 now, but fact is, Vinny traded down and not only picked up an extra pick, but got the same players that he and almost every analyst had graded worthy of the 1st round pick he traded down from. THEN, when some of you were crying about the lost chance to get the amazing Phillip Merling or Calais, Vinny snagged Jason Taylor, 2006 NFL Defensive MVP. So, from Vinny's perspective, he went out and got some pretty decent talent for the coaching staff to work with. Let's hope, that Zorn and Blache learn from this season and figure how to "Coach'em up" better next year. I for one, hope Danny let's Vinny to continue with his value approach to the draft.
ey TE
DEHog wrote:SkinsFreak wrote:DEHog wrote:Again somebody please tell me who we have drafted or sighed for that matter that is a prennail all-pro and will be talk about as a HOFer.
Clinton Portis? ChrisPeter King wrote:4. I think Clinton Portis is going to be in front of us one day for Hall of Fame consideration. Two games shy of seven full seasons, and he's already past 9,000 yards. He's 27 years old. Can he muster 4,000 more yards? I'd think he will. If so, he'll be in Eric Dickerson territory.
Portis is not homegrown and how many times has he been ALL-Pro and is not on a winning team
Samuels is the best argument but in the end they will say he was on bad teams and he couldn't handle the speed rushers??
ey is All Pro this year, the 2nd leading TE in regard to receptions in the NFL, the all-time top Redskin TE receiver in history (set this year both for career and for a single year. He's also the team's top receiver this year, in receptions and first downs. He's also young and rarely gets hurt.
ey, and Devin and Malcom and Fred, I would'nt mind drafting a special WR someone who we know will be a superstar like Percy Harvin, because we need touchdowns, that's what we thought Devin and Malcom would bring us, points 6 at a time, Percy Harvin has special God given talent like speed (fastest at the combine garaunteed) and strength 195lbs and he's 5-11, and he gets open. Florida recievers are where it's at, not Michigan State.
Too bad these are only two good picks with no decent backups, eh?PulpExposure wrote:And would you not say that Cornelius Griffin has been a very good DT for us...and Carter had a great year as the only passrushing threat for us last year.
Gibbs4Life wrote:Florida recievers are where it's at, not Michigan State.
And so continues the streak of University of Florida wideouts taken early in the draft who don't pan out. Chad Jackson, please meet Taylor Jacobs, Reche Caldwell, Travis Taylor and Jacquez Green. Welcome to the club, sir.
Redskin in Canada wrote:OL and DL have been overlooked and NEGLECTED.
Wahoo McDaniels wrote:SkinsFreak wrote:spenser wrote:I don't think that SkinsFreak was necessarily defending vinny, rather saying that LAST years draft was not bad, due to the fact that very soon we will need some receivers (tall ones), and another TE. WR's obviously take a few years to develop, so by drafting them last year, hopefully they will be ready to step up and pan out for us when we lose ARE and Thrash. I agree with this. now... don't go twisting my words and say Im defending vinny, or that I don't think he is an idiot. we HAVE neglected the lines, and vinny IS for the most part an idiot, in my opinion. But I agree with skinsfreak that we got better value, and hopefully solidified another posistion by getting 3 players in the 2nd, as opposed to 1 player who may or may not pan out....
Thank you. All I said was that we needed some WR's, (as did most everyone else at the time) there wasn't any linemen in the 2nd round who were worthy, and all of a sudden I'm defending Vinny. Joke.
Drafting Merling would not have changed one damn thing about the course of this season. And other than that one guy, NO ONE has offered any player in THIS YEARS DRAFT that was worthy or offered better value.
The Jags drafted TWO DE's. Guess what? Their defense sucks and they just fired their defensive coordinator. The knock against the Eagles is that they don't have any skill players because they use all their picks on linemen. What has that gotten them? Since 2000, the Eagles have used 6 of their 8 first overall picks on a lineman, yet they have one skill player with any talent, and that's Westbrook. Point? There is no one successful formula.VetSkinsFan wrote:A back-up TE in the 2nd? I don't think that was really a smart move.
And Vet, Davis will not be a "back-up". Teams use multiple TE sets and rotate that position quite frequently. We've used Yoder quite often over the past few years even though we have
This is a ridiculous statement... no player would have been better than 6 of the 7 players that we got that have given us absolutely nothing.
Well, let's play fairy tale world and pick some players picked behind the Skins, who we could have gotten and problem would have provided better value than two WRs who were injured and out of shape, a TE who couldn't tell when to pass block and when to go out for a pass, an OG who couldn't beat out a 40 yr old or an Undrafted Free Agent, a CB who looks like the smallest player in the NFL and a Punter that, well, couldn't punt.
So let's take a look at some guys we "missed on" because of our crack Scouting Dept.
Rd. 2 Pick 34 - We pick Devin Thomas.
Other possibilities...
Pick 38 - John Carlson - TE - 50 catches, 600 yds
Pick 42 - Eddie Royal - 75 catches 850 yds.
Pick 44 - Matt Forte - 1100 yds rushing, 55 catches
Rd. 2 pick 48 - We pick Fred Davis
Pick 49 - DeShaun Jackson -- 'nuff said
Rd. 2 pick 51 - We pick Malcolm Kelly
Other possibilities....
Pick 52- Quentin Groves
Pick 61 - Martellus Bennett
Here's the one that especially hurts....
Rd 6. Pick 168 - We pick Durant Brooks
Pick 169 - Trevor Scott -- leading the league in sacks for rookies
Obviously, you don't declare a draft great or a bust after one season, but it's crazy talk to say that no one else could have helped us more than the group of players we got. That's straight ridiculous.
I'm not saying we were wrong to choose the players we've got, but what do you say when you let DeShaun Jackson and Eddie Royal go and they're already producing at a position (WR) that most people say it takes more than one year to grasp. Coincidentally I thought we were going to take one or the other when the pick came up (mostly Royal because of the DC connection), but our crack scouting dept had other ideas.
Am I the only one who sees Michael Westbrook and Desmond Howard when I look at Malcolm Kelly and Devin Thomas?
ey is in the line up, Jackson newsflash we were looking for a big Wr, Eddie Royal see Jackson, 6th round pick, thats monday morning Qb, even the team that drafted him didn't think he was good, OTHERWISE THEY WOULDN'T HAVE DRAFTED HIM IN THE 6TH ROUND. Forte, yeah we really needed a rb, we are just really weak at that position. Quetin Groves, and offensive lineman, and Phillip Merling are the only legit criticisums one can make. We should have drafted a TE instead with our third second round pick 
crazyhorse1 wrote:Cooley is All Pro this year, the 2nd leading TE in regard to receptions in the NFL, the all-time top Redskin TE receiver in history (set this year both for career and for a single year. He's also the team's top receiver this year, in receptions and first downs. He's also young and rarely gets hurt.
Tell me again why we should have drafted Davis?
SkinsFreak wrote:crazyhorse1 wrote:Cooley is All Pro this year, the 2nd leading TE in regard to receptions in the NFL, the all-time top Redskin TE receiver in history (set this year both for career and for a single year. He's also the team's top receiver this year, in receptions and first downs. He's also young and rarely gets hurt.
Tell me again why we should have drafted Davis?
<sigh> Because the TE position is not like other positions, in that you need more than one "starter" at the TE spot, due to the use of multiple TE formations and the frequent rotation at that position. Also, Yoder may be gone after this season and you need to get a replacement coached up. All you have to do is read a little or listen to Zorn himself to get these answers.
Chris Luva Luva wrote: But did we NEED to draft a TE at that time? No, it was not really a need.
SkinsFreak wrote:Chris Luva Luva wrote: But did we NEED to draft a TE at that time? No, it was not really a need.
Again, you're using hindsight to your advantage.
Chris Luva Luva wrote:SkinsFreak wrote:The fact is, this year, we needed to upgrade our receiving corps for the future, and we got good value for our 2nd round picks. I'd just love for anyone to argue against that or for the future of guys like Thrash and ARE. Zorn needed taller receivers for his offense and even though the impact of these picks won't be felt until next year, we desperately needed to get these guys coached up for the future.
We did not NEED 2 WR's and a TE... How do I know??!? Cus they barely even played! At most we need one WR and that would have been Kelly.
And when Vinny tries to defend not getting Merling, he shows just how misinformed and ignorant he is. He's a joke and it's a joke to try to defend this garbage.
prinzeofmoval wrote:If malcolm had 8 tds or if Thomas would've had a great year we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Chris Luva Luva wrote:prinzeofmoval wrote:If malcolm had 8 tds or if Thomas would've had a great year we wouldn't be having this conversation.
But they didn't... And we are having this discussion... Why? Because IT'S REALITY! We could have used 1/3 of those picks at a linemen position. Or maybe even the LB position which is thinning out quickly.